CV1 Text readability — Oculus
New to the forums? Click here to read the "How To" Guide.

Developer? Click here to go to the Developer Forums.

CV1 Text readability

saviorntsaviornt Posts: 1,951
NerveGear
edited October 2015 in General
If anyone can respond, it would be great. How good is the CV1 for text readability, not just for menus, but say, for papers or news papers spread on a desk?

Are there any practices that I should keep in mind when designing the newspapers, such as font, font-size, etc..?

Comments

  • JoseJose Posts: 888
    Trinity
    I believe it's about the same as DK2. The CV1 uses dual 1080p screens so the pixel density should be the same as DK2, despite the better optics.

    When I tried the CV1 at Oculus Connect, I remember thinking "This looks just as pixelated as my DK2".
  • ChoronzonChoronzon Posts: 341
    Nexus 6
    Jose wrote:
    I believe it's about the same as DK2. The CV1 uses dual 1080p screens so the pixel density should be the same as DK2, despite the better optics.

    When I tried the CV1 at Oculus Connect, I remember thinking "This looks just as pixelated as my DK2".

    We're told that screendoor won't be a problem in the retail Rift, but if you're saying that CV1 is still at dotty as DK2... well.
  • RonsonPLRonsonPL Posts: 1,115
    Trinity
    Jose wrote:
    I believe it's about the same as DK2. The CV1 uses dual 1080p screens so the pixel density should be the same as DK2, despite the better optics.

    When I tried the CV1 at Oculus Connect, I remember thinking "This looks just as pixelated as my DK2".

    We're told that screendoor won't be a problem in the retail Rift, but if you're saying that CV1 is still at dotty as DK2... well.


    Screendoor effect (SDE) is improved in current CV1 prototypes shown to public, and will stay that way in the final CV1 version.
    Pixel size will stay at the DK2 level, since it's 1080x1200 per eye and DK2 was 960x1080 per eye. Basically the same resolution so the same pixelation.

    Pixelation and SDE are two very different things. Text readability will be good enough for small-to-medium fonts. Tiny fonts will have to wait a few years for higher res CV2, CV3 or CV4.
    Not an Oculus hater, but not a fan anymore.
    Still lots of respect for the team-Carmack, Abrash.
    Oculus is driven by big corporation principles now. That brings painful effects already, more to come in the future. This is not the Oculus I once cheered for.
  • saviorntsaviornt Posts: 1,951
    NerveGear
    I wonder if I could submit a sample scene to test.. would hate to do all of the work for it to be unreadable :\
  • andrewtekandrewtek Posts: 971
    Art3mis
    I have not gotten to try the CV1 yet, but text was pretty legible in the Vive. As a matter of fact, I was surprised to see that SteamVR had adequately legible medium-sized text in my DK2.
    saviornt wrote:
    I wonder if I could submit a sample scene to test.. would hate to do all of the work for it to be unreadable :\
    Will the sample have a "this will scare the pants off you" warning? :D
  • drashdrash Posts: 2,846
    Neo
    Until resolution gets a bit higher up, I'd suggest using thick-ish fonts and feather the edges. This works wonders in DK2 and Gear VR, so I assume this holds for CV1 and perhaps beyond for a while.

    Here's a couple slides I had up in my Convrge talk a while back: http://imgur.com/a/05M00
  • DoomWaffleDoomWaffle Posts: 5
    NerveGear
    RonsonPL wrote:
    Jose wrote:
    I believe it's about the same as DK2. The CV1 uses dual 1080p screens so the pixel density should be the same as DK2, despite the better optics.

    When I tried the CV1 at Oculus Connect, I remember thinking "This looks just as pixelated as my DK2".

    We're told that screendoor won't be a problem in the retail Rift, but if you're saying that CV1 is still at dotty as DK2... well.


    Screendoor effect (SDE) is improved in current CV1 prototypes shown to public, and will stay that way in the final CV1 version.
    Pixel size will stay at the DK2 level, since it's 1080x1200 per eye and DK2 was 960x1080 per eye. Basically the same resolution so the same pixelation.

    Pixelation and SDE are two very different things. Text readability will be good enough for small-to-medium fonts. Tiny fonts will have to wait a few years for higher res CV2, CV3 or CV4.

    Except the difference between 960x1080 and 1080x1200 is 25%
  • jyounjyoun Posts: 232
    That extra 25% may go into what they claim to be greater FOV, but either way it is basically the same as DK2.

    Reports do say, however, that the visual clarity across the entire screen is noticeably increased. So text that is off axis that appeared blurry in DK2 is improved in CV1.
  • ChoronzonChoronzon Posts: 341
    Nexus 6
    RonsonPL wrote:
    Pixelation and SDE are two very different things.

    Pixellation might plague compressed Youtube vids, but it's not a problem in the Rift. Surely resolution is intimately connected with SDE – the higher the resolution the greater the pixel density, which reduces screendoor (a resolution of 2560x1440 greatly reduces SDE). There’s hardly any difference between DK2 and CV1, so some sort of blurred effect will mask SDE. But anything not close-up will still be a pain to look at… blurred dots instead of sharply-defined dots.

    Text readability?

    "Clear text everywhere. Beautiful, crisp text not just in the center. These lenses were custom designed and built for Totem." https://www.vrvana.com/
  • HiThere_HiThere_ Posts: 1,275
    3Jane
    The idea with reading small text in VR is that you pick up the paper or whatever and bring it close to your face to read what's on it, as you would in real life.

    It's an age old video game trick, except in VR you can't control the camera to close in automatically on the paper, so instead you offer the option to pick up and hold the paper closer to your face.

    It might be an issue for things like reading subtitles in a virtual cinema, where you're better off placing yourself in the middle of the room then reading that text from an angle, but the general idea is that you work around the problem of small text, by not requiring the user to read small text from a distance.

    For example you could be using a tablet to translate in real time the writings in foreign language that you find in the place you're traveling through, be an old style detective carrying a magnifying class, or be triggering vocal messages from tape recorders or on your smartphone instead of having to read text messages.
  • AlricAlric Posts: 112
    Hiro Protagonist
    Comments about resolution do confuse me a bit. I mean CV1 has 25% more pixels than dk2, yet some people basically same "naaa it's basically the same, you can't tell a difference". A 25% increase sounds worthwhile to me, if there had been an option when the dk2 was sold for a higher res version with 25% more pixels I'm pretty sure we would all have bought that one. If my car had 25% more power, I'd sure take that and I know I wouldn't be disappointed and say well its basically the same as before, no difference!

    I know we all wanted higher res but lets not forget an increase of 25% is still worthwhile and defiantly better than dk2.
  • mabseymabsey Posts: 115
    Hiro Protagonist
    Alric wrote:
    Comments about resolution do confuse me a bit. I mean CV1 has 25% more pixels than dk2, yet some people basically same "naaa it's basically the same, you can't tell a difference". A 25% increase sounds worthwhile to me, if there had been an option when the dk2 was sold for a higher res version with 25% more pixels I'm pretty sure we would all have bought that one. If my car had 25% more power, I'd sure take that and I know I wouldn't be disappointed and say well its basically the same as before, no difference!

    I know we all wanted higher res but lets not forget an increase of 25% is still worthwhile and defiantly better than dk2.

    25% whilst it is an improvement, what improvement you see will depend on the Field of View. If they have made the field of View bigger, and the only way of doing that is with the lenses, then you are applying more magnification, and so are magnifying the pixels more lowering the 25% improvement.

    With your Car theory above, imagine a bit of dirt on your windscreen that you are looking out, you can see so much sitting in the driver seat. To see more out of the front window, you move closer, and whilst yes you can see more out of the windscreen, that bit of dirt (The Pixel) just got bigger to.

    Mabs
  • BlizadoBlizado Posts: 28
    Brain Burst
    Is there not also an improvement because of the OLED Matrix? The DK2 use a Pentile Matrix Display, what Matrix have the CV1, still Pentile? That would be worse, I hope it is a RGB Matrix and than also Text should be much more readable. A Pentile OLED have only green Subpixels in the amount of the Resolution, red and blue Subpixels have only 50% of the green Subpixel amount. You can see that easily on this image: http://www.droid-life.com/wp-content/up ... -small.jpg
  • WelbyWelby Posts: 1,063 Oculus Start Member
    I've tried the CV1 at the Oculus Connect 2 more and more times..

    And honestly i find the overall quality of the display much better. Of course the pixels are still there but i definitely wouldn't say the SDE is same of the DK2.. definitely it wasn't same much visibly improved.

    Also,especially in the Oculus Touch demoes.. i was SO immersed that believe me i couldn't see not even a pixel..

    Really.. i was totally immersed and just focussed on playing and have fun,nothing like other DK2 or even CV1 + gamepad experiences i've ever had.

    Now i also have an HTC Vive and i can easly say that the motion controllers are the keys to ignore any hardware limitations.. If you've your hands (well tracked of course), you're just going to feel really much more immersed.
  • gutanggutang Posts: 186
    Hiro Protagonist
    Having done the matte screen protector diffusion trick on my dk2 the SDE isnt really an issue for me, but pixelization definitely is. I really hope that there is a noticeable reduction in cv1.
  • mabseymabsey Posts: 115
    Hiro Protagonist
    Welby wrote:
    I've tried the CV1 at the Oculus Connect 2 more and more times..

    And honestly i find the overall quality of the display much better. Of course the pixels are still there but i definitely wouldn't say the SDE is same of the DK2.. definitely it wasn't same much visibly improved.

    Also,especially in the Oculus Touch demoes.. i was SO immersed that believe me i couldn't see not even a pixel..

    Really.. i was totally immersed and just focussed on playing and have fun,nothing like other DK2 or even CV1 + gamepad experiences i've ever had.

    Now i also have an HTC Vive and i can easly say that the motion controllers are the keys to ignore any hardware limitations.. If you've your hands (well tracked of course), you're just going to feel really much more immersed.

    The bit I'm really keen to see, is how pixeled distant images are in games. For example, I play Project Cars, and looking around my immediate cockpit, everything is good, looking ahead though at cars in the distance, they turn into pixalated blobs and detail is very poor. I would be interested to see how much improved this is?

    Mabs
  • gutanggutang Posts: 186
    Hiro Protagonist
    Exactly... With my modified dk2 and flyinside with fsx I can make out all the dashboard information just enough to be acceptable but its the long distance stuff that's the problem. Same with project cars or any game which requires detail at far ranges. Cv1 needs to be able to do this.
  • WelbyWelby Posts: 1,063 Oculus Start Member
    mabsey wrote:
    Welby wrote:
    I've tried the CV1 at the Oculus Connect 2 more and more times..

    And honestly i find the overall quality of the display much better. Of course the pixels are still there but i definitely wouldn't say the SDE is same of the DK2.. definitely it wasn't same much visibly improved.

    Also,especially in the Oculus Touch demoes.. i was SO immersed that believe me i couldn't see not even a pixel..

    Really.. i was totally immersed and just focussed on playing and have fun,nothing like other DK2 or even CV1 + gamepad experiences i've ever had.

    Now i also have an HTC Vive and i can easly say that the motion controllers are the keys to ignore any hardware limitations.. If you've your hands (well tracked of course), you're just going to feel really much more immersed.

    The bit I'm really keen to see, is how pixeled distant images are in games. For example, I play Project Cars, and looking around my immediate cockpit, everything is good, looking ahead though at cars in the distance, they turn into pixalated blobs and detail is very poor. I would be interested to see how much improved this is?

    Mabs

    I've playeed Eve Valkyrie where you need to fight against far away space vehicles.. and still i was pretty easly able to fight against them.

    The pixellation is improved and is definitely playable for me.. I can't say HOW much improved it is but to me it was playable.

    Overall the whole CV1 is a comfortable and usable headset for almost all kind of games.. and i'm using the word "usable" just because it lets you play almost all kind of games(yes also simulation games with far away vehicles) without too much issues.. but overall the CV1 is really good especially for the first iteration.
  • jyounjyoun Posts: 232
    mabsey wrote:
    how pixeled distant images are in games
    First of all, everything you see is 100% pixelated, no matter the distance they appear in the world.

    Secondly, a somewhat related note: until VR supports eye-tracking there is no good way for the software to know what you are trying to focus on. This means that even at higher resolution things might not ever converge properly due to the "fixed" nature of the optics and rendering technique.

    For both of these reasons devs are recommended to put important objects that need to be focused on within a certain "comfortable" range. I believe with Oculus it is between 2-3 meters for critical GUI type things, all other things a bit broader than that, like 0.75-3.5m.

    I'm not sure if any games try to go beyond these inherent issues by making assumptions based on head postition and dynamically distorting the image slightly for better convergence, but I'm guessing it'll take time for devs used to HD content creation to go back to more SD-like practices: big fonts, high contrast, less emphesis on close-vs-distant objects
  • ChoronzonChoronzon Posts: 341
    Nexus 6
    I think we need to get our definitions sorted - pixellation is not seeing individual pixels, it's a block of pixels, an effect when the digital signal breaks up, or seeing nothing but bathroom-tiles resulting from bad compression.

    I have the matt screen protector in the DK2 - makes no difference at all. Of course, when playing games you don't notice screendoor... but it's ATROCIOUS when focusing on anything like watching videos, for instance.
  • owenwpowenwp Posts: 681 Oculus Start Member
    The consumer rift is probably full RGB, which means that the actual number of subpixels is increased by about 80% over the DK2. And even with the same number of subpixels, full RGB handles small details a lot better than pentile.
  • AlricAlric Posts: 112
    Hiro Protagonist
    mabsey wrote:
    Alric wrote:
    Comments about resolution do confuse me a bit. I mean CV1 has 25% more pixels than dk2, yet some people basically same "naaa it's basically the same, you can't tell a difference". A 25% increase sounds worthwhile to me, if there had been an option when the dk2 was sold for a higher res version with 25% more pixels I'm pretty sure we would all have bought that one. If my car had 25% more power, I'd sure take that and I know I wouldn't be disappointed and say well its basically the same as before, no difference!

    I know we all wanted higher res but lets not forget an increase of 25% is still worthwhile and defiantly better than dk2.

    25% whilst it is an improvement, what improvement you see will depend on the Field of View. If they have made the field of View bigger, and the only way of doing that is with the lenses, then you are applying more magnification, and so are magnifying the pixels more lowering the 25% improvement.

    With your Car theory above, imagine a bit of dirt on your windscreen that you are looking out, you can see so much sitting in the driver seat. To see more out of the front window, you move closer, and whilst yes you can see more out of the windscreen, that bit of dirt (The Pixel) just got bigger to.

    Mabs

    Right, okay I totally understand what your saying and I agree but everything I've read seems to suggest that CV1 fov is the same as dk2 which is one of the main reasons they won't give us a number because we will probably all be disappointed. So unless you know something we don't then the extra 25% pixels will give us a nice improvement but hopefully they give us a bit of both, slightly wider fov and a little bit more pixels. That would be best overall experience for the first consumer iteration.
  • tzuvelatzuvela Posts: 205
    Art3mis
    owenwp wrote:
    The consumer rift is probably full RGB, which means that the actual number of subpixels is increased by about 80% over the DK2. And even with the same number of subpixels, full RGB handles small details a lot better than pentile.

    Not seen a lot about CV1 RGB screen, do you have any valid source?
    For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled.
    Richard Feynman
  • owenwpowenwp Posts: 681 Oculus Start Member
    Oculus isn't saying one way or the other, but it would be pretty shocking if this were not the case. Playstation VR is full RGB even at a higher refresh rate, so the panels exist. And if they chose to stick to pentile there are panels with significantly higher resolution that have been available in high quantity for quite a while now, and used in GearVR.

    2160 x 1200 RGB is about the same number of subpixels as the 2560 x 1440 pentile display in the current Samsung phones. The actual electronic element size needs to shrink down a bit because blue OLED subpixels are dimmer than red and green and thus need to be larger to compensate (that's the main reason pentile is used now, to fit varying sized subpixels in a neat grid), but that's exactly the kind of moderate manufacturing improvement you might expect to see in a year. Oculus also stated at the launch of the DK2 that they considered pentile to be undesirable and were looking to go full RGB in the future, along with other targets they have now confirmed achieved like global shutter.

    Then there is just how much more clear the image in the CV1 looks.
Sign In or Register to comment.