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Article on Rift and it's tracking.

Mr.CreepyMr.Creepy Posts: 792
Neo
edited March 2016 in General
With all the Vive articles and reviews being posted lately i feel like chiming in with a very positive article on the rift and it's tracking capabilities.

http://www.gizmag.com/oculus-rift-revie ... gdc/42311/
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Comments

  • christopherbarnhousechristopherbarnhouse Posts: 263
    Nexus 6
    Atmos73 wrote:
    Did you notice he was using TWO tracking cameras about 2 feet away from each other. The Oculus pack only comes with ONE camera so his opinions on how well the tracking is are invalid.

    oculus-rift-gdc-4.jpg

    <sigh> The Touch comes with the second camera...
    So I guess that makes your opinion invalid ?
  • jademanjademan Posts: 268
    Nexus 6
    Won't Touch, which he is using, include the second camera?
  • Mr.CreepyMr.Creepy Posts: 792
    Neo
    Atmos73 wrote:
    Did you notice he was using TWO tracking cameras about 2 feet away from each other. The Oculus pack only comes with ONE camera so his opinions on how well the tracking is are invalid.

    oculus-rift-gdc-4.jpg
    As has already been mentioned, Touch uses two cameras and that's what he is using so your comment is invalid.
  • Mr.CreepyMr.Creepy Posts: 792
    Neo
    Atmos73 wrote:
    The Touch pack might well include a second camera but look at how its used. They're set up 2 feet away not at 180 degrees. The reviewers demonstrating Room-scale (360) but admits its set up for 180. So the only thing you can conclude from the review is you need 2 cameras for a 180 experience?

    He doesn't even mention occlusion once. :roll:
    He mentions trying to break the tracking and not succeding. He doesn't mention occlusion propably because he did not experience it. Both the Vive and Rift controller can get occluded, the difference in likelyhood of occlusion is propably not much.
  • Rigel80Rigel80 Posts: 60
    Mr.Creepy wrote:
    Atmos73 wrote:
    The Touch pack might well include a second camera but look at how its used. They're set up 2 feet away not at 180 degrees. The reviewers demonstrating Room-scale (360) but admits its set up for 180. So the only thing you can conclude from the review is you need 2 cameras for a 180 experience?

    He doesn't even mention occlusion once. :roll:
    He mentions trying to break the tracking and not succeding. He doesn't mention occlusion propably because he did not experience it. Both the Vive and Rift controller can get occluded, the difference in likelyhood of occlusion is propably not much.

    Without two cameras in opposite walls it is impossible to avoid occlusion, with two cameras in the same wall you will have only 180° experience, for example: you cannot play Space Pirates with this setup.
  • Mr.CreepyMr.Creepy Posts: 792
    Neo
    Rigel80 wrote:
    Without two cameras in opposite walls it is impossible to avoid occlusion, with two cameras in the same wall you will have only 180° experience, for example: you cannot play Space Pirates with this setup.
    You're right, but in that case you just places the cameras on opposite sides of your playing area. He did say that he turned every direction and didn't experience problems, which you of course would in certain situations but he didn't here. This article puts the worries i had about tracking pretty much to rest as i was a bit worried about precision or noticable lag, which he reports he didn't notice, even while trying to break tracking.
  • Mr.CreepyMr.Creepy Posts: 792
    Neo
    Atmos73 wrote:
    So why 2 cameras 2 feet apart?
    Because it limits occlusion issues while playing in the 180 degree tracked area. You can also put them in opposite sites but that just means that there are more ways that you can occlude a controller.
  • ZoomieZoomie Posts: 1,777 Valuable Player
    Atmos73 wrote:
    Exactly, why do you need two cameras if they are only 2 feet apart in such a small setup? The review shows one camera can't do 180 room-scale alone.

    What Oculus don't want you to know - You might need 4 cameras for 360 degrees. :o
    Surely you're kidding here - but just in case:
    DK1 could do more than 180 degrees with a single camera. My DK2 can do all but maybe a 20-40 degree blind spot, simply because it doesn't have LEDs on the back of the headset. Even the development kits could do more than 180 degrees with a single camera.

    The CV1 HMD will do 360 with high precision with one camera.
    Full stop. No question.

    Touch controllers are why both the Rift and Vive need a second camera (or Lighthouse). The second camera is there to ensure you retain line of sight from the Touch controllers to at least one camera in cases where the other one is blocked by your body. People setting them up 2 feet apart have completely missed the point of having two cameras. It's not there to allow more precise tracking, it's there to ensure there's always a line from the emitters to at least one sensor. It's not required with a HMD-only setup because it's highly unlikely you'll occlude the headset with your body. ;)

    Now, if they're clever they'll also use data from both sensors to do error correction which would have the added benefit of more precision. But that's not the primary role of the second camera.
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    - Arthur C Clarke
  • JakemanOculusJakemanOculus Posts: 514
    Neo
    Atmos73 wrote:
    The Touch pack might well include a second camera but look at how its used. They're set up 2 feet away not at 180 degrees. The reviewers demonstrating Room-scale (360) but admits its set up for 180. So the only thing you can conclude from the review is you need 2 cameras for a 180 experience?

    He doesn't even mention occlusion once. :roll:

    Occlusion is really a different topic. This reviewer was clearly testing the tracking fidelity not occlusion. Occlusion doesn't really need to be tested. It is a very simple reality which affects any tracking system.

    Some one correct me if I am wrong... but I believe that the Oculus Touch actually recommends the camera configuration shown in this review. It's not like the reviewer misplaced the dual cameras. Rather that configuration is recommended by Oculus to minimize occlusion for most of the use cases they are pushing. As the reviewer noted, Oculus is pushing 180 experiences while HTC is pushing 360. In the absolute mathematical sense, a dual camera 180 configuration will have less occlusion than a dual lighthouse 360 configuration.

    If you desire to compare the Rift and Vive in terms of occlusion then you need identical configurations, but there is really nothing to test. I can state for a fact that a dual camera dual touch 360 configuration will have identical occlusion to a dual lighthouse dual wand 360 configuration. There will be slight differences when the controllers are close together given that the touch and wand have different shapes, but on a macro level the occlusion will be identical. It is mathematics and has nothing to do with tracking technology or fidelity.

    So I guess you want the reviewer to demonstrate the math by testing the cameras in a 360 configuration? I guess that is valid, but the results should already be known without having to test it. The more interesting review is one that tests tracking fidelity like this person did, and his judgment is that the Rift's dual cameras (with Touch) have excellent fidelity:

    "zero tracking errors"
    "synced perfectly"
    "not the slightest glitch, misplacement or judder"
  • Mr.CreepyMr.Creepy Posts: 792
    Neo
    Atmos73 wrote:
    Zoomie wrote:
    The CV1 HMD will do 360 with high precision with one camera.
    Full stop. No question.

    Really? IR can go round corners? :o

    The reviewer thinks otherwise. 'The Rift is capable of 360-degree tracking, but that would (eventually) require long cables stretching from the PC to opposite corners of the room. So 180 it is.'

    Everyone seems to know better than everyone else, Oculus remain silent. :lol:
    For many people the area available to them wouldn't be a problem to have the wires reach, so 360 will be very much possible. Also Zoomie was talking about the HMD alone which will do 360 tracking with one camera.
  • JakemanOculusJakemanOculus Posts: 514
    Neo
    Atmos73 wrote:
    Ok so you need 2 cameras for 180 and 2 cameras for 360. :roll:

    If by "need" you mean zero occlusion then you actually need 4 cameras for 360. With only 2 cameras in a 360 configuration you will have more occlusion than 2 cameras in a 180.

    Said another way, the Vive is shipping a recommended configuration that has more occlusion than the Rift+Touch with its recommended 180 configuration. If you were to put the Rift in a 360 configuration you would have identical occlusion to the Vive, but that is not the configuration they are recommending.

    It's a tradeoff.
  • davidjcdavidjc Posts: 356
    I'm sure the Oculus has good tracking when its in the Camera volume. The problem is you have to tilt the cameras when you stand or sit. With the vive you can sit down, run around in circles, and then lay on the floor and it tracks perfectly 360 degrees with no hassle.

    The two camera setup for the oculus will track 180 degrees with the touch controllers. This after you adjust the camera up or down for sitting or standing. I really hate when I lose tracking with the DK2. Feeling like I am tethered in some kind of invisible cone of space. As far as I can tell the CV1 just has a much larger tracking cone.
  • davidjcdavidjc Posts: 356
    Atmos73 wrote:
    Ok so you need 2 cameras for 180 and 2 cameras for 360. :roll:

    If by "need" you mean zero occlusion then you actually need 4 cameras for 360. With only 2 cameras in a 360 configuration you will have more occlusion than 2 cameras in a 180.

    Said another way, the Vive is shipping a recommended configuration that has more occlusion than the Rift+Touch with its recommended 180 configuration. If you were to put the Rift in a 360 configuration you would have identical occlusion to the Vive, but that is not the configuration they are recommending.

    It's a tradeoff.

    No this is wrong. The Vive tracks the other way around. So there is almost no occlusion. There is absolutely no part of the constellation tracking that is better than the lighthouse setup. Not one advantage whatsoever. Unless you have trouble mounting the lighthouse stations....but common I think we can figure that one out.
  • JakemanOculusJakemanOculus Posts: 514
    Neo
    davidjc wrote:
    I'm sure the Oculus has good tracking when its in the Camera volume. The problem is you have to tilt the cameras when you stand or sit. With the vive you can sit down, run around in circles, and then lay on the floor and it tracks perfectly 360 degrees with no hassle.

    The two camera setup for the oculus will track 180 degrees with the touch controllers. This after you adjust the camera up or down for sitting or standing. I really hate when I lose tracking with the DK2. Feeling like I am tethered in some kind of invisible cone of space. As far as I can tell the CV1 just has a much larger tracking cone.

    Introducing topic #3, tracking angle.

    So we have addressed:

    1) Tracking fidelity. This is what the OP posted about. The reviewer gave the Oculus top marks for fidelity.

    2) Occlusion. This is a side topic that doesn't really warrant a discussion or debate. Occlusion is very simple to understand and is identical for identical camera configurations.

    3) Tracking angle. This is the latest topic. Let's discuss...

    Does anyone know the precise tracking angle of the CV1 and Vive? I haven't read anything with those exact measures. However, I know for a fact that the CV1 has a wider tracking angle than the DK2.

    Mathematically speaking, if your movements are exceeding the tracking angle of your cameras then you simply need to distance yourself from the cameras or deploy them in a wider configuration. Pretty simple. I don't see a problem here.

    Does anyone have a topic #4?
  • davidjcdavidjc Posts: 356
    Well you do realize that the Constellation is a totally different tracking solution I suppose. There are like dozens of cameras on the Vive and the controllers. And the lighthouse paints the entire room with lasers. So the cameras(sensors) on the Vive will always see some sort of laser pattern hitting the walls, ceiling, etc. There is almost no occlusion unless you try to cover deliberately sensors on the headset and the controllers (like tuck the controller under your arm or something).

    Occlusion is pretty huge here.
  • JakemanOculusJakemanOculus Posts: 514
    Neo
    davidjc wrote:
    No this is wrong. The Vive tracks the other way around. So there is almost no occlusion.

    How is that? Occlusion is a function of line of sight. Both systems are subject to this.

    Please explain.
    davidjc wrote:
    There is absolutely no part of the constellation tracking that is better than the lighthouse setup. Not one advantage whatsoever. Unless you have trouble mounting the lighthouse stations....but common I think we can figure that one out.

    I agree. Both systems have identical tracking performance.
  • ZoomieZoomie Posts: 1,777 Valuable Player
    I give up trying to educate people on how this works. It's not a difficult concept which leads me to believe this is feigned ignorance by people with an agenda. I choose not to believe people are this dumb.

    I buy the argument that Lighthouse has the potential to be more precise.
    I'd love to see a hybrid of the Rift and Vive that uses Lighthouse, the Oculus HMD, Touch Controllers, and has a look-through front camera like the GearVR. Oh, and the PSVR price :)

    But for your own self respect and our sanity, please stop telling us what the Rift can't do if you don't even understand how the tracking works.
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    - Arthur C Clarke
  • Mr.CreepyMr.Creepy Posts: 792
    Neo
    davidjc wrote:
    Well you do realize that the Constellation is a totally different tracking solution I suppose. There are like dozens of cameras on the Vive and the controllers. And the lighthouse paints the entire room with lasers. So the cameras(sensors) on the Vive will always see some sort of laser pattern hitting the walls, ceiling, etc. There is almost no occlusion unless you try to cover deliberately sensors on the headset and the controllers (like tuck the controller under your arm or something).

    Occlusion is pretty huge here.
    Doesn't lighthouse work by the light emitted from the lighthouse hitting the sensor on the headset? I believe so, and that leaves it susceptible to occlusion.
  • davidjcdavidjc Posts: 356
    davidjc wrote:
    No this is wrong. The Vive tracks the other way around. So there is almost no occlusion.

    How is that? Occlusion is a function of line of sight. Both systems are subject to this.

    Please explain.
    davidjc wrote:
    There is absolutely no part of the constellation tracking that is better than the lighthouse setup. Not one advantage whatsoever. Unless you have trouble mounting the lighthouse stations....but common I think we can figure that one out.

    I agree. Both systems have identical tracking performance.


    Yeah but the Oculus has one or two cameras. It can see only whats in front of you. If you turn around and it cannot see the lights on the touch controllers because your body is blocking it then it will lose tracking. The cameras for the rift also have a much less volume of tracking as compared to the Vive. Because the Vive has the cameras on the headset and wands. And vive put laser emitters all over the walls by using the Lighthouse boxes to illuminate everything in 15ft x 15ft (or greater) area.

    The oculus is trying to see specific points of light on the controllers and headset. Using a camera with a cone volume. The vive controllers and headset sees all around it and only has to see a wall, floor, or ceiling with the laser pattern on it. Two totally different systems. The vive is much more elegant and practical, and has near perfect line of sight as a result.

    It's too bad the Rift could not tack on lighthouse tracking. Back in the old days Oculus would have jumped all over a offer of help from Valve (low persistence for example).
  • JakemanOculusJakemanOculus Posts: 514
    Neo
    davidjc wrote:
    Well you do realize that the Constellation is a totally different tracking solution I suppose. There are like dozens of cameras on the Vive and the controllers. And the lighthouse paints the entire room with lasers. So the cameras(sensors) on the Vive will always see some sort of laser pattern hitting the walls, ceiling, etc. There is almost no occlusion unless you try to cover deliberately sensors on the headset and the controllers (like tuck the controller under your arm or something).

    Occlusion is pretty huge here.

    Sorry but you don't understand how the lighthouse works. It doesn't read patterns on the walls, and reflections are explicitly disallowed in the setup instructions (ie you are required to cover all reflective surfaces).

    It is line of sight from lighthouse to IR receiver with a laser sweep. When the sweep hits a receiver on the headset or controller it registers a position. See this video:

  • Mr.CreepyMr.Creepy Posts: 792
    Neo
    Atmos73 wrote:
    Zoomie wrote:

    The CV1 HMD will do 360 with high precision with one camera.
    Full stop. No question.

    So for 360 room scale with no occlusion do I need 1, 2 or 4 cameras?
    Depends on whether you are using touch or not. :lol:
  • JakemanOculusJakemanOculus Posts: 514
    Neo
    Atmos73 wrote:
    So for 360 room scale with no occlusion do I need 1, 2 or 4 cameras?

    4.

    Occlusion is still possible with only 2 cameras. Face your back to one camera and line up your hands with the other camera, one behind the other, thereby blocking line of sight.

    [CAMERA] --- [You] [Hand1] [Hand2] --- [CAMERA]

    Hand1 now has no tracking.
  • davidjcdavidjc Posts: 356
    Mr.Creepy wrote:
    davidjc wrote:
    Well you do realize that the Constellation is a totally different tracking solution I suppose. There are like dozens of cameras on the Vive and the controllers. And the lighthouse paints the entire room with lasers. So the cameras(sensors) on the Vive will always see some sort of laser pattern hitting the walls, ceiling, etc. There is almost no occlusion unless you try to cover deliberately sensors on the headset and the controllers (like tuck the controller under your arm or something).

    Occlusion is pretty huge here.
    Doesn't lighthouse work by the light emitted from the lighthouse hitting the sensor on the headset? I believe so, and that leaves it susceptible to occlusion.

    Except that the whole room is lit up with the lasers. Can you occlude an entire room? Not really possible. So its not susceptible to occlusion unless you get a towel and wrap it around the controller or something. The tracking volume of the vive is 15 by 15 feet. And covers to at least so that you can hold the controllers over your head and probably still some.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ubW6Pxlm7g

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDOVa82SKNI
  • rogueqdrogueqd Posts: 148
    Hiro Protagonist
    davidjc wrote:
    Yeah but the Oculus has one or two cameras. It can see only whats in front of you. If you turn around and it cannot see the lights on the touch controllers because your body is blocking it then it will lose tracking.
    True, but only in Oculus's 180 configuration. Placing the cameras in opposing corners gives it the Rift the same occlusion as the Vive. Ok, the length of the USB cables does make 360 placement more difficult.

    davidjc wrote:
    And vive put laser emitters all over the walls by using the Lighthouse boxes to illuminate everything in 15ft x 15ft (or greater) area. ... The vive controllers and headset sees all around it and only has to see a wall, floor, or ceiling with the laser pattern on it.
    No, the Vive only has two laser emitters not "emitters all over the walls". The sensors on the Vive and controllers have to have direct line of sight to one of the two emitters. The occlusion is exactly the same as the Rift.
  • davidjcdavidjc Posts: 356
    davidjc wrote:
    Well you do realize that the Constellation is a totally different tracking solution I suppose. There are like dozens of cameras on the Vive and the controllers. And the lighthouse paints the entire room with lasers. So the cameras(sensors) on the Vive will always see some sort of laser pattern hitting the walls, ceiling, etc. There is almost no occlusion unless you try to cover deliberately sensors on the headset and the controllers (like tuck the controller under your arm or something).

    Occlusion is pretty huge here.

    Sorry but you don't understand how the lighthouse works. It doesn't read patterns on the walls, and reflections are explicitly disallowed in the setup instructions (ie you are required to cover all reflective surfaces).

    It is line of sight from lighthouse to IR receiver with a laser sweep. When the sweep hits a receiver on the headset or controller it registers a position. See this video:


    It reads the light patterns in the room, the lasers fill the room. There is no occlusion issues. But keep deceiving yourself if you want to.

    Another video, I mean honestly try to be honest with yourself. These guys are pushing the Vive tracking beyond its limits.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD4UlShicgY

    Honestly I'm done here. It's silly. Lighthouse > Constellation. I can see how its open to discussion.
  • Mr.CreepyMr.Creepy Posts: 792
    Neo
    davidjc wrote:
    It reads the light patterns in the room, the lasers fill the room. There is no occlusion issues. But keep deceiving yourself if you want to.

    Another video, I mean honestly try to be honest with yourself. These guys are pushing the Vive tracking beyond its limits.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD4UlShicgY

    Honestly I'm done here. It's silly. Lighthouse > Constellation. I can see how its open to discussion.
    Just go away then, you don't even know how the Vive lighthouse technology works.
  • JakemanOculusJakemanOculus Posts: 514
    Neo
    davidjc wrote:
    Mr.Creepy wrote:
    davidjc wrote:
    Well you do realize that the Constellation is a totally different tracking solution I suppose. There are like dozens of cameras on the Vive and the controllers. And the lighthouse paints the entire room with lasers. So the cameras(sensors) on the Vive will always see some sort of laser pattern hitting the walls, ceiling, etc. There is almost no occlusion unless you try to cover deliberately sensors on the headset and the controllers (like tuck the controller under your arm or something).

    Occlusion is pretty huge here.
    Doesn't lighthouse work by the light emitted from the lighthouse hitting the sensor on the headset? I believe so, and that leaves it susceptible to occlusion.

    Except that the whole room is lit up with the lasers. Can you occlude an entire room? Not really possible. So its not susceptible to occlusion unless you get a towel and wrap it around the controller or something. The tracking volume of the vive is 15 by 15 feet. And covers to at least so that you can hold the controllers over your head and probably still some.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ubW6Pxlm7g

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDOVa82SKNI

    You don't understand how it works.

    Try this... put the lighthouse behind an object such that the Vive has no line of sight but can only see reflections on the walls. Then you will understand that it doesn't work.

    When you understand that the lighthouse is still based on line of sight you will realize that "volume" is not a relevant basis of comparison.
  • JakemanOculusJakemanOculus Posts: 514
    Neo
    davidjc wrote:
    It reads the light patterns in the room, the lasers fill the room. There is no occlusion issues. But keep deceiving yourself if you want to.

    Another video, I mean honestly try to be honest with yourself. These guys are pushing the Vive tracking beyond its limits.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD4UlShicgY

    Honestly I'm done here. It's silly. Lighthouse > Constellation. I can see how its open to discussion.

    You will note that they always have line of sight. There is no wall reading.
  • davidjcdavidjc Posts: 356

    You don't understand how it works.

    Try this... put the lighthouse behind an object such that the Vive has no line of sight but can only see reflections on the walls. Then you will understand that it doesn't work.

    When you understand that the lighthouse is still based on line of sight you will realize that "volume" is not a relevant basis of comparison.

    Actually I do understand how this works and I believe you are just playing stupid. The lasers sweep the room. The entire 15 by 15 ft volume of the room. So at any point the cameras will see the laser sweeps.

    Volume absolutely is crucial. I thing you are just trying to play stupid, troll, and obfuscate things here. If you are emotionally attached to Oculus then so be it. But it's certainly not worth my time to play this game.
  • christopherbarnhousechristopherbarnhouse Posts: 263
    Nexus 6
    davidjc wrote:

    You don't understand how it works.

    Try this... put the lighthouse behind an object such that the Vive has no line of sight but can only see reflections on the walls. Then you will understand that it doesn't work.

    When you understand that the lighthouse is still based on line of sight you will realize that "volume" is not a relevant basis of comparison.

    Actually I do understand how this works and I believe you are just playing stupid. The lasers sweep the room. The entire 15 by 15 ft volume of the room. So at any point the cameras will see the laser sweeps.

    Volume absolutely is crucial. I thing you are just trying to play stupid, troll, and obfuscate things here. If you are emotionally attached to Oculus then so be it. But it's certainly not worth my time to play this game.

    You seem to think that the laser bounces off the wall and finds the camera. That's not the case. It sweeps the room to find the camera, if it's not somewhere in the sweep IN THE LINE OF SIGHT, it will not find the camera.
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