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CV1 - scale is off

SyndroidSyndroid Posts: 242
Nexus 6
Hi!  long time DK2 user here.
I recieved my CV1 today and one thing I noticed right away, is that something is way off about the scale.
Then I startet the Oculus World Demo and stumbled upon this function called "Postion tracking scale" 
Default value is 1000 ->Everything is huuge,. like really huge.
Changing it to 1450-1500 looks right/natural (like it did on the DK2) and fixes the whole problem for me (in this demo).

Now I'd like to know if there is a way to change this function for the runtime, or if there is any other way to fix this issue.
The CV1 is virtually unusable for me with the current world scale. Even more after witnessing the direct changing of it.

Thanks in advance.
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Comments

  • birkbirk Posts: 95
    Hiro Protagonist
    I dont have a cv1 yet, but doesn't changing the space between the lenses change the scale?
  • ThreeDeeVisionThreeDeeVision Posts: 2,087
    @birk changing lens spacing would only help your eyes line up with the sweet spot on the lens.  The scale would be handled by a software adjustment.  I haven't seen any scale adjustments thus far though, but I will keep an eye out.
    i7 5960X @ 3.8 GHz | Corsair Vengeance LPX 16GB DDR4 PC2800 | GTX Titan X Pascal | Win 10 64 bit | Asus ROG PG348Q | EVGA X99 Classified
  • SyndroidSyndroid Posts: 242
    Nexus 6
    edited June 2016
    Yes, the lens slider changes the scale only by a little bit.

    Anyway, I've just reinstalled the Oculus Software/drivers and deleted everything named "Oculus" in my registry, but still the same problem.
    I can't imagine that the scale in my CV1 is what it is supposed to be like.

    Can somebody with a CV1 do a quick test with the Oculus World Demo and replicate what I did? 
    It's in the SDK: https://developer.oculus.com/downloads/pc/1.4.0/Oculus_SDK_for_Windows/

    Once in the demo, go to one of the chairs, then press "tab", then  go to "player" and change the "position tracking scale" and see if you can get the chair and the rest of the evionment to a more lifelike size or not.
    Let me know if changing the value makes it better or worse for you.
    That would be nice.
  • FX2KFX2K Posts: 268
    Nexus 6
    edited June 2016
    In that demo, yeah everything is a bit larger than it should, a 1.2 - 1.3 setting feels more natural, but isn't this because of it being designed for different hardware, screen sizes / fov / distortion etc.

    In something like Elite Dangerous, the scale in the CV1 feels perfect to me.

    What is it you think the scale is off for?  
    CV1: Ordered 6th Jan 2016 - Est Delivery Some time in May...
    DK2: Ordered: 8th of Aug 2014 - Delivered: 14 Oct 2014
  • SyndroidSyndroid Posts: 242
    Nexus 6
    edited June 2016
    Thanks for testing. (for me 1.45-1.5 feels natural). but yes, you could be right about the hardware differences in the Oculus demo.

    It is really strange..
    Some games feel natural enough to me scale wise. (project cars, Elite), but most others don't -(including Oculus Home)

    Example: 
    Dreamdeck demo; Every object in the mirror demo is about 2 or 3 times the size of what it would be in reality.
    (not 100% sure if it's astheticly intentional in this case though)

    Vanishing of Ethan Carter; again, everything is too big. Looking down to the corpse at the railroad, doesn't look like a normal person lying on the floor.
    The chairs behind the screen in Oculus Home look bigger as I would expect chairs to be at this distance.

    It's really hard to explain but compared to the DK2, I don't feel present in some environments anymore, 
    Maybe the stereo projection is wrong or something. If I only knew.

    How do you percieve the scale in the mirror demo for example? 
  • TwoHedWlfTwoHedWlf Posts: 2,234 Valuable Player
    Hmmm, I'll have to have a look again, but I don't remember anything in the demo or Home looking the wrong size.  I'll have to have a look this evening after work.
  • TwoHedWlfTwoHedWlf Posts: 2,234 Valuable Player
    I've had a good look in oculus home, and the mirror demo.  Things look about the right size to me.
  • birkbirk Posts: 95
    Hiro Protagonist
    Syndroid said:
    Thanks for testing. (for me 1.45-1.5 feels natural). but yes, you could be right about the hardware differences in the Oculus demo.

    It is really strange..
    Some games feel natural enough to me scale wise. (project cars, Elite), but most others don't -(including Oculus Home)

    Example: 
    Dreamdeck demo; Every object in the mirror demo is about 2 or 3 times the size of what it would be in reality.
    (not 100% sure if it's astheticly intentional in this case though)

    Vanishing of Ethan Carter; again, everything is too big. Looking down to the corpse at the railroad, doesn't look like a normal person lying on the floor.
    The chairs behind the screen in Oculus Home look bigger as I would expect chairs to be at this distance.

    It's really hard to explain but compared to the DK2, I don't feel present in some environments anymore, 
    Maybe the stereo projection is wrong or something. If I only knew.

    How do you percieve the scale in the mirror demo for example? 
    maybe if you installed oculus home/runtime with the dk2, then just plugged in the cv1 when it arrived instead of setting it up again could mess up the size?
  • ZoomieZoomie Posts: 1,777 Valuable Player
    I noticed that the scale changed significantly in the Oculus Studio movies when I went from DK2 -> CV1.  I felt about 50 feet away from the action in "Lost" using my DK2.  When I plugged in the CV1, I suddenly felt like I was 5 feet away from the hand. 
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    - Arthur C Clarke
  • SyndroidSyndroid Posts: 242
    Nexus 6
    edited June 2016
    birk said:
    ...
    maybe if you installed oculus home/runtime with the dk2, then just plugged in the cv1 when it arrived instead of setting it up again could mess up the size?
    I thought the same and tried deleting everything related to the "Oculus Software I could find on my system and reinstalled it. but it didn't change anything. Maybe I missed something? There is alot of Oculus stuff I collected over the last years. But then again, I wonder why nobody else seem to have this issue, since I'm not the only DK2 user out there.
    This can't be a Hardware defect, right? ..My IPD is 63 btw..

    Today I'm gonna plug my DK2 back in and try to make some screenshos for comparison.
    Unfortunately I don't have a another PC to test on atm, but I'd like to know what the reason could be, or find a solution, before I reinstall windows.
  • SyndroidSyndroid Posts: 242
    Nexus 6
    edited June 2016
    Made some screenshots and overlayed both viewport images.
    I hope this helps visualizing my problem.

    http://imgur.com/a/D0xPL


  • SyndroidSyndroid Posts: 242
    Nexus 6
    edited June 2016
    Update:
    I just tested a little more and I've found a demo where I can change the IPD override manually.
    Going up to 85-86 looks about natural to me..
    So I assume this means that the internal IPD setting is broken and in my CV1 I'm seeing  ~44 instead of 64 all the time!?

    Please tell me this is a software issue, not an hardware issue.
    I'm clueless what to do right now...I can't use my CV1 this way.


    -I've made screenshots showing the two different settings.
    If someone has the time, view these images in your CV1 and let me know how you percieve the scale.

    http://imgur.com/a/xKfXa
  • DemilsonDemilson Posts: 35
    Brain Burst
    I saw your screenshots and it looks like the CV1 is that is correct; because in DK2, the overlapping images of the left and right eye are almost identical, which loses depth. I think it has a bug from the runtime 1.3.

    Something very strange is occurring with my DK2 after installing runtime 1.3: games simply lost their depth and consequently immersion! Like I'm playing a 3D game on a large screen, but no VR.

    It is not so easy to see, because the game is still in 3D perspective (closer objects are larger and more distant objects appear smaller); but clearly I realized that I can no longer see the depth in the games. For example, in Project Cars, I can not feel that the stand is about 20 or 30 meters away (?); in Castle Coaster game I do not feel I'm there at the top, the point of feeling vertigo and fear as before; the same for Elite Dangerous, Titans of Space, In Cell VR, War Thunder, etc.

    My IDP is 64 mm, which seems to be the default of DK2; but it is as if the eyes of the observer in the game were almost together. Because; closing and opening his eyes alternately, the left image is almost identical to right image; with very little lateral displacement.

    With the runtime 0.8 and earlier, the sensasão VR was perfect; distant objects seemed to really get to several meters from me; the high places gave feeling dizzy and a little fear; roller coaster games gave goose bumps; etc. Now, after 1.3 runtime, unfortunately not.

  • Syndroid said:

    I thought the same and tried deleting everything related to the "Oculus Software I could find on my system and reinstalled it. but it didn't change anything. Maybe I missed something? There is alot of Oculus stuff I collected over the last years. But then again, I wonder why nobody else seem to have this issue, since I'm not the only DK2 user out there.
    This can't be a Hardware defect, right? ..My IPD is 63 btw..

    Today I'm gonna plug my DK2 back in and try to make some screenshos for comparison.
    Unfortunately I don't have a another PC to test on atm, but I'd like to know what the reason could be, or find a solution, before I reinstall windows.
    Having same/similar issue here. Owned DK2 for about last six month of 2015, received CV1 6 weeks ago and 'something' feels off, possibly a scale thing. Just not feeling the same convincing sense of immersion.
    Elite  for instance looks stunning, but scale feels smaller than DK2 experience. Stations, inside and outside seem somehow smaller than they did and the planets/moons definitely feel much less massive and awe inspiring. Went down to moon surface yesterday and right up to the point where I as asking for docking permission the moons horizon from left to right felt no larger than a (British) football field. Definitely not planet/moon sized or immersive. Looks like VR but doesn't 'feel' like VR as I remember it from DK2. I just dont feel there on CV1. Some things like for instance Monstrum feel better immersion wise but the secret ingredient from the DK2 definitely appears to be missing.
  • Gwiz84Gwiz84 Posts: 292
    Nexus 6
    Never tried the dev kits only used my own CV1 for VR, but everything feels right to me?
  • SyndroidSyndroid Posts: 242
    Nexus 6
    I have to say, after ~1-2 months now, I'm accustomed to the difference, but there are still some apps where the scale and depth perception feels off. 
    The vanishing of Ethan Carter is still a night and day difference on DK2 vs.CV1 and I can't explain what the devs were thinking about this.
    The same with Eve Valkierie. The Pilots body and some other stuff is way too big for me.
    Every game should have a world scale adjustment, imo.
  • cyberealitycybereality Posts: 26,156 Oculus Staff
    edited August 2016
    This may be related to the IPD adjustment issue we are looking into now. Basically, it appears that on some systems the in-game camera distance is locked at 64mm, regardless of the IPD slider settings. Meaning that the more your physical IPD differs from 64mm the more the world scale (and also stereo rendering) would be off. I'm not sure how widespread the issue is, but I received a few reports so far and was able to reproduce the problem on my own machine. 
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  • DemilsonDemilson Posts: 35
    Brain Burst
    I do not know what Oculus made; but, incredibly, after the last update of the runtime, my DK2 again had true VR.

    As I reported above, after 1.3 runtime my DK2, while still showing 3D, lost depth and immersion. For my tests, the observer's eye convergence plan is closer in previous runtimes to 1.3 and further in later runtimes; but I'm not sure if this is the real cause of the problem (IPD is not).

    It seems that other DK2 and CV1 users are also having the same problem. To find out if your Oculus Rift is with this problem, try to close an eye in a VR game and see if you feel difference in depth compared with both eyes open; and run Showdown and see if you have the real sensation of moving in the street. If not, it's because you also have this problem.

    Now, after the latest update of Oculus Home, he made the reconfiguration of the camera Rift Sensor and automatically depth VR back to normal as it was before the runtime 1.3.

    Now, the sensation VR is perfect again; distant objects seem really get to several meters from me; the high places give feeling dizzy and a little fear; roller coaster games give goose bumps, etc.

    Now I feel really moving in the scenario 3D and not the scenario about me, as if I were standing. In Showdown and The Grand Canyon VR Experience this sesation (moving within the scenario) is very evident.

    In Elite Dangerous, my ship, seasons and planets now look really great and the objects are really distant; as if I was actually traveling through space. Same for Project Cars, In Cell VR, Titans of Space, and other games.

    I would like the Oculus team allow the user to configure the distance of the observer's eye convergence plan (if this is the problem), so users can increase or decrease this stereo effect according to your preference.

    THANK YOU, OCULUS !
  • klaxalkklaxalk Posts: 1
    NerveGear
    edited November 2016
    Hi, I have Oculus for around a week and suddenly (dont know if I just noticed it or whether I broke something) the sense of scale in Elite feels toy-like. All the stuff looks 3/4 size, the planet surfaces feel like a plastic thing 20m in front of the ship despite being hundreds of meters above. I tried to fiddle with the IPD, but without success. Even the IPD config in Elite's xml does not change anything. Wierd is though that the main menu in Elite looks right.. The only thing that seems to show any difference is the scale factor in the World Demo... but only there ofc.. pls halp.
  • zorexzorex Posts: 27
    Brain Burst
    I'm having the same problem. I have the sensation that all is bigger than it's supposed to be.
  • jkstorm75jkstorm75 Posts: 15
    NerveGear
    Can anyone give an example of a game with good depth rendering scale but has also experienced the limited scale people are experiencing in Elite? I want to compare something that is working well versus the current lack of depth in Elite. I'm getting the sense this issue isn't consistent from one person to the next. My IPD is 63.
  • SyndroidSyndroid Posts: 242
    Nexus 6
    edited November 2016
    For me this issue has been fixed since that IPD bugfix a while ago.
    There are still a few games where the scale feels off, but that's mostly the developers fault.
    The scale in Elite felt accurate to me last time I tried it.
    Bad scale examples: Vanishing of Ethan Carter, Technolust.
    good: The Assembly, Assetto Corsa, Dirt Rally

    edit: this is app is kinda useless, but the scale of the models in it is perfect. And since those are objects from the everydays life, it should work good as a reference. 
    https://www.oculus.com/experiences/rift/895335533911596/
  • TwoHedWlfTwoHedWlf Posts: 2,234 Valuable Player
    jkstorm75 said:
    Can anyone give an example of a game with good depth rendering scale but has also experienced the limited scale people are experiencing in Elite? I want to compare something that is working well versus the current lack of depth in Elite. I'm getting the sense this issue isn't consistent from one person to the next. My IPD is 63.
    I think Showdown has pretty good scale and distance, and it's free.  Actually one of the best quick demos, imo.
  • Thane_Thane_ Posts: 242
    Nexus 6
    edited November 2016
    Holy crap, are you telling me the Rift and Vive don't come with a way to adjust both the separation of distant and nearest objects in every game? This is very important because the eyes are so incredibly sensitive to angle changes, which are effected by IPD, distance to screen which changes the screen-fov, also in-game fov settings which changes the 2D size of objects and thus their perceived 3D size.

    Is it correct that the screenshots from Adrift in your link everything looks too big with a lack of depth?

    In general, here what you can do to get a sense for whats going on the the depth settings. Stand over a line in the world that extends straight out from you going forward, like over one of the lines that a tile floor makes, or where a wall meets the floor, or the edge of a sidewalk,etc. Then overlay the screenshots together the same way Syndroid did in his screenshots. You should see the two lines( from each eye) linearly spreading outwards. In a game where things look the right size, that angle those two lines form can serve as a guide to how correctly the game is angling your eyes. This is probably much easier to see on a 3DTV where you just take of the shutter glasses and see the two images overlayed on each other.

    Remember that it is the job of stereo 3D to mimic real life eye angles, so when staring at something on the horizon, your eyes are looking basically straight on, but when looking closely at a butterfly on you finger, your eyes are crossed inward. That also can serve as a guide.

    Using 3D Vision software on my 3DTV, they make these adjustments accessible via hotkeys. I assumed that the Rift would have them too since in-game FOV can change, screen distance can change, aka screen-FOV, effecting the angles the eye views objects.


    Heres a video where you can see the effect. Note how when changing the depth slider how the separation of background objects changes much more than foreground objects, while the opposite is true for the convergence slider. Similar functionality should be available in all VR headsets to adjust 3D in every game and account for different screen distances, unless the convergence values are standardized across every game.




    An easy to access/use slider/hotkey like this is VERY IMPORTANT FOR VIDEO AND MOVIES. You can't change the convergence in video which isn't realtime like a game, but you can separate the two images as a whole, which for movies makes them look more like real life and like what you see when your VR game looks right, and for video it helps quickly compensate for the different IPD of the maker of the video. I really like these sliders over Nvidias hotkeys.

    If anyone from Oculus reads this and is like, hey that sounds nice but this stuff is getting complicated enough already for users, we want to make this as easy to use as possible. I agree, but i have a solution, my recommendation is to not do what Nvidia did, and instead create a easy to understand explanation of how stereo 3D works so users understand 3D right from the get go. Literally take a week just to plan out the explanation, along with a short video to help guide the user. This way they will be looking for such an option before they even know there is one.

    Here is an example of the liner outward progression of something as it extends into the distance. In this case you can clearly see the road center-lines going outward. Just imagine what your eyes are doing as you follow the line into the distance. Eventually it gets to its maximum level of separation, your IPD, along with everything else.

    In this shot, the poster of this picture is having a problem with the 3D not looking right, from my experience, the lines comes closer together near the avatar's thumb. In this case the imagery near the player would seem too large and lack depth and look farther away, all at the same time.



  • TwoHedWlfTwoHedWlf Posts: 2,234 Valuable Player
    Thane_ said:
    Holy crap, are you telling me the Rift and Vive don't come with a way to adjust both the separation of distant and nearest objects in every game?

    I believe that would be a feature that would need to be provided by the game, not by the HMD?
  • Thane_Thane_ Posts: 242
    Nexus 6
    edited November 2016
    Yeah your right, i am used to gaming in 3D with an Nvidia card, who's cards control depth and convergence and create the dual views in any game.

    In the case of Oculus/Valve/Sony/Moneysoft, i think they need to be the ones to alert game devs about this and do so in such a way as to help them understand it easily so they can in-turn intuitively pass on the understanding to their users.
  • flexy123flexy123 Posts: 791
    3Jane
    edited November 2016
    I have not had a problem with wrong scale WHATSOEVER (and tried many demos and experiences). So this lets me conclude that if there is a problem with wrong perceived scale it's a problem of the game/experience and not the Rift.
    Also..I totally understand what you mean with these settings (I also have a 3D Plasma), but understand that EVERY additional setting is also a potential for problems if they are accessible to "normal users".

    The Rift of course has the lens distance slider/setting, and although I read somewhere it doesn't properly communicate this value to the app (???) it should be a matter of the Rift software and/or app to deal with these numbers right, and NOT a matter of the user needing to fiddle with extra settings which SHOULD in theory not be needed.

    Or said differently: Once you adjust your lens spacing, this should be ALL there is at least for "normal users". This information should be enough for ANY game to render exactly as intended. It should not be *YOUR* task having to adjust something like convergence or whatever. Say, if Elite or whatever wants to render a space station so that the space station is perceived as being, say, 500m wide and in a distance of 1km to you, they can do this without a problem. (I also don't see an indication that such additional settings are even needed)

    Do NOT introduce additional settings like convergence or separation. Why? There is no need for it. Having these settings is the best way that ultimately people mess things up what should be the job of the game engine/game. Do you see what I am saying?
  • flexy123flexy123 Posts: 791
    3Jane
    edited November 2016
    >>
    Using 3D Vision software on my 3DTV, they make these adjustments accessible via hotkeys. I assumed that the Rift would have them too since in-game FOV can change, screen distance can change, aka screen-FOV, effecting the angles the eye views objects.
    >>

    In-game FOV should not and should never (and doesn't ever) change, correct me if I am wrong.. There is only ONE "correct" FOV which is the FOV represented to you from wearing the Rift. It's you in whatever "real" VR world with the Rift on and what you see. Nothing more, nothing less. The rest is on the programmer of the game/app.

    I absolutely remember what an incredible pain in the ass it was using 3DTV and playing with these settings until things "looked right". I am actually glad we don't have these archaic settings.Also, some apps like video players etc. allow you to adjust IPD settings should it be needed, for whatever reason.

    Also...you are overthinking this..talking about "screen distances" etc..things which are not needed. There are really no different screen distances with the Rift. It's really the beauty of the Rift that it is MUCH simpler and more intuitive to use than 3DTV, WAY easier. 99,99% of cases, you simply wear the Rift and things look right. If they don't...the coders of the game/engine made a mistake somewhere. (Or in the case of the OP, as I assume some bugs with early Oculus software which long have been corrected.)
  • flexy123flexy123 Posts: 791
    3Jane
    TwoHedWlf said:
    jkstorm75 said:
    Can anyone give an example of a game with good depth rendering scale but has also experienced the limited scale people are experiencing in Elite? I want to compare something that is working well versus the current lack of depth in Elite. I'm getting the sense this issue isn't consistent from one person to the next. My IPD is 63.
    I think Showdown has pretty good scale and distance, and it's free.  Actually one of the best quick demos, imo.
    It's funny I wasn't THAT impressed with this particular demo. I guess it's a matter of taste. Also you say "it has good scale and distance", which I cannot follow since I really didn't see any demo/experience or game yet where this was not correct. Showdown gave me the same (correct) scale and distance like some other stuff.
  • SyndroidSyndroid Posts: 242
    Nexus 6
    edited November 2016
    flexy123 said:
    It's funny I wasn't THAT impressed with this particular demo. I guess it's a matter of taste. Also you say "it has good scale and distance", which I cannot follow since I really didn't see any demo/experience or game yet where this was not correct. Showdown gave me the same (correct) scale and distance like some other stuff.
    Have you tried Technolust or Ethan Carter? The scale in these 2 games is really messed up .Especially TL.
    It could be easily fixed if there was a worldscale option somewhere. I don't know how exactly this works technicially but if you change the worldscale in some apps, you could basicially make a toybox version out of a realistic sized world without any kind of distortion or other drawbacks.  

    And I agree with what you said before; other things like stereo seperation, convergence etc are handled by the runtime and they need to stay away from native VR apps, except for 360° videoplayers and injection drivers.
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