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Thoughts on roomscale (Vive opinion, so skip if not interested)

notsramnotsram Posts: 1,238
Wintermute
Yep, I'm back again. Anyone miss me? Nope? Thought not! Anyone remember me? Phew, I'm safe then :)

Anyway, if anyone does remember me, you'll know that when I first got my HMD (Vive - don't shoot me), I had a tiny space and could pretty much only play seated games. 

I now have a much larger space - just over 2 metres square, and as such, I've been able to finally sample room scale over the past few weeks. And, in a nutshell, it's awesome. I was never convinced about it before I got my Vive - always thought I'd simply play sitting down, but as soon as I got my Vive and started using it, I knew I needed more space.

The feeling of immersion is hard to put into words. I was playing Island 359 the other day. There was a packing crate standing next to me, and without thinking, I went to lean against it... and fell over.  Just being able to walk around (granted, in a limited fashion) is so liberating and adds so much to a game.  Hearing a monster/dinosaur/zombie coming up behind you, spinning round and offing it... way more satisfying than doing it to an on-screen enemy. Having a weapon fired at you and being able to dodge or duck out of the way. It's just... FUN.

I've heard a few people criticise the teleport method of moving around in a game, but for this generation of VR (and until houses are built with purpose made LARGE VR rooms), it's probably the best compromise we're going to get. And, as a bonus, it's pretty good at not causing motion sickness either :)

Not having a go at Rift owners here at all, but motion controllers also add a lot to the game. The sooner you guys get Touch, the better (genuine question here - I'm totally out of the loop with things Oculus - has Touch been given a release date/price yet?). Moving around and aiming with a joypad is absolutely blown out of the water by moving around and using a torch/gun/knife/bow and arrow.

Honestly, if you haven't got enough room for at least limited room scale, knock down a wall or something. You won't regret it!

Comments

  • ShpinxisShpinxis Posts: 92
    Hiro Protagonist
    I know there are some who agree with me, maybe not many, but I still see room scale as a gimmick. I don't disagree that there will be amazing experiences for it, but in the long run, with a majority of games, I think it will not last. It is way too limiting in my opinion. The problem of locomotion is the biggest issue. As soon as gamers want the larger AAA experiences, there is no way that room scale can handle it at this point. Maybe someone will think of some amazing solution, but the chances on that seem slim. Every app out there right now that uses room scall/motion controllers either has gameplay elements specifically for it, or are still considered "experiences." I think there is hype around it right now, and there is some good reason, but in the long run, the industry will remember why controller input is so good at the moment. It always seems to come full circle back to the traditional gamepad.
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 4,151 Valuable Player
    @ Notsram How could we forget you brother. Have you tried RAW DATA, it's one of the best VR games at the moment imo.  They've recently updated it to include more areas and better multiplayer implementation. It makes great use of roomscale and teleportation. 


    System Specs: RTX 2080 ti , i9 9900K CPU, 16 GB DDR 4 RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,925 Valuable Player
    I don't understand why roomscale needs two sensors. The kinect doesn't need two sensors and it can see your entire body. I also don't understand why the sensors can't see our entire body like the kinect. 

    Maybe someone can clarify.
    i7 9700k 2080ti   CV1, Rift-S, Index
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 4,151 Valuable Player
    edited September 2016
    I think the key word is occlusion. Kinect tracks your body as a whole mass but cannot see through the body so if kinect is in front of you and you put hands behind your back then sure it can see you have done this but can no longer see your hands or what they are holding.

    With roomscale there's lots of potential for rotational movement where hands and controllers could become obscured by the body, so the two sensor set up means it can see and track your hands (and head) no matter where you turn.

    That's my basic understanding of it.


    System Specs: RTX 2080 ti , i9 9900K CPU, 16 GB DDR 4 RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
  • ViswarViswar Posts: 4
    NerveGear
    @notsram I'm very excited to experience room scale VR. Knowing that you have a 2 meter square area for it, would you say that you have just enough space, too much or still too little? Reason I ask is because I was just planning on creating a space specifically for VR.
  • JED44JED44 Posts: 448 Poster of the Week
    Shpinxis said:
    I know there are some who agree with me, maybe not many, but I still see room scale as a gimmick. I don't disagree that there will be amazing experiences for it, but in the long run, with a majority of games, I think it will not last. It is way too limiting in my opinion. The problem of locomotion is the biggest issue. As soon as gamers want the larger AAA experiences, there is no way that room scale can handle it at this point. Maybe someone will think of some amazing solution, but the chances on that seem slim. Every app out there right now that uses room scall/motion controllers either has gameplay elements specifically for it, or are still considered "experiences." I think there is hype around it right now, and there is some good reason, but in the long run, the industry will remember why controller input is so good at the moment. It always seems to come full circle back to the traditional gamepad.
    Look up Onward. It is literally the counterpoint to what you just said. Uses traditional locomotion with limited sickness (compared to other traditional locomotion titles) and uses all the benefits of roomscale, 360 tracking, and motion controllers. Its becoming kind of like the counterstrike of VR at the moment. incredible game.
  • JoseJose Posts: 888
    Trinity
    There are a lot of people (probably half of all VR users) who would rather not stand up and move around when playing games. That's their personal preference, and there's nothing wrong with that. Their job might require them to be on their feet all day. And afterwards they just wanna go home and relax and play VR games. They're probably not gonna want to play Hover Junkers. I totally get that. There isn't much that anyone can do to convince them to like room-scale VR.

    Me, personally, I like having the option of doing both, whenever I feel like it.
  • HiThere_HiThere_ Posts: 1,289
    3Jane
    edited September 2016
    I cleared a space of almost 2mx2m too (more like ~2.1mx1.9m), and that's roughly enough for a standing 360° experience, but not enough to start walking around, not unless you keep your 6D controllers close to your body the whole time (which you typically won't).

    Even with ~2mx2m and standing in the center, I still managed to bang and almost damage a controller into some furniture by bending forward to extend my reach in a sword fight, so I'm aiming to go out of my way to extend it to ~2.1mx2.1m (by purchasing a smaller desk). And again that's just for a standing 360° experience, and not for walking around a room.

    Thing is just the standing 360° experience in ~2mx2m is great (and just enough if I don't bend forward with my arm streched out), and once you add a solution to the locomotion issue (and the headset cable), of which teleportation is only one example, then you don't need any more room then that.

    Also I placed a small round rug in my room so I can feel where the center is, without having to use Chaperone's distracting visual queues (because in a ~2mx2m 360° standing space chaperone tends to activate too often).

    As for Touch, it should be announced during Oculus Connect 3 (October 5th-7th), and until then the rumor mill says ~199$ and November the 21st : In the meantime I'm using 2011 Razer Hydra controllers which are wired (meaning I get 180° each side rather then full 360°, which works out better for managing the headset cable flawlessly anyway), which are shorter then the HTC Vive wands (suggesting I'd need a ~2.2mx2.2m space to be able to use HTC Vive wands, which would require throwing out even more furniture ^^ ).

    The upside of making room for hand controllers, is that my room never felt so big : I wouldn't want to change it back to what it was :)

    PS : To state the obvious, the smaller you are (arm span), the less space you need. Basically stand in the middle of your space, try touching something by bending forward, and if there's a big enough safety margin (add an extra ~0.1m for HTC Vive wands) in every direction you're good :)

    PPS : From my personal experience walking starts around ~1.5mx2.5m (~2mx2.5m is more often suggested), while facing a specific direction (so not really full 360°, more like you can either only walk forward and back a bit, either only strafe sideways a bit, but for doing both without risking to bang your controllers you'd need at least 2.5mx2.5m, depending on your size).
  • maxpare79maxpare79 Posts: 1,792
    Project 2501
    edited September 2016
    Hey Nostram! Glad to have you back here! I really miss your grumpiness lol ;-)
    Like others have mention Onward is the go to game for the VIVE now, no teleportation, and awesome gameplay (like Counter-Strike). After playing it, all other VIVE games really feel gimmicky (looking at you wave-base shooters!)

    I believe teleportation is holding back VR, dev need to stop being afraid using traditional locomotion (meaning stick or trackpad). You get use to everything, I can run around full-speed using a stick in VR without getting one ounce of motion sickness...sure it took some getting used to, but free movement is way better then teleportation.

    I don't own a VIVE, my friend does and it took a lot of convincing on my part to get my friend to buy Onward, because he only experienced teleportation games so far, he was worried he would get sick and didn't want to buy it...That's what I mean when I say it's holding back VR, how many people will hold up buying game because they feel "safer" teleporting around.

    He finally caved and now it's the best game he ever played after getting used to a bit of dizziness...

    Teleportation needs to go, or at least always give 2 options of movement
    I am a spacesim/flightsim/racesim enthusiast first :-) I9 [email protected], 32gb RAM/ 2080ti Former DK2, Gear VR,CV1 and Rift S owner
  • HanoverHanover Posts: 549
    Neo
    edited September 2016
    ...actually, there are some people getting ill playing Onward.  Take a look at this thread.

    Also, you never really run in that game.  The movement is fairly slow...which is probably how they try to keep it from getting too intense.


  • JED44JED44 Posts: 448 Poster of the Week
    edited September 2016
    Hanover said:
    ...actually, there are some people getting ill playing Onward.  Take a look at this thread.

    Also, you never really run in that game.  The movement is fairly slow...which is probably how they try to keep it from getting too intense.


    It's not a fix all but it certainly works better for more people. the point being it uses traditional locomotion, and does not limit the player to room scale or physically walking.

    Also You can sprint in the game, at a realistic pace. you aren't flying around the map like call of duty, but I would not call it slow. You aren't stuck at crawling speed. The slow pace comes more from the way people play then actual game limitations. 

    EDIT - here are some threads that corroborates that 
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/4zyxv3/onward_worried_about_the_touchpad_locomotion/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/50z8aw/how_is_onward_not_giving_me_any_locomotion/
  • JakemanOculusJakemanOculus Posts: 514
    Neo
    No one will argue that room scale doesn't give you an amazing feeling of presence.  But there are extremely few good applications at the scale of a room.  That is why most "room scale" applications are actually "standing scale", and most of those are wave shooters which suck.  The few applications which go beyond standing scale almost always break the boundaries of the room which then requires movement hacks which are gimmicky and totally immersion-breaking which sucks.

    So basically room scale is extremely immersive and all of its applications suck.
  • JED44JED44 Posts: 448 Poster of the Week
    edited September 2016
    No one will argue that room scale doesn't give you an amazing feeling of presence.  But there are extremely few good applications at the scale of a room.  That is why most "room scale" applications are actually "standing scale", and most of those are wave shooters which suck.  The few applications which go beyond standing scale almost always break the boundaries of the room which then requires movement hacks which are gimmicky and totally immersion-breaking which sucks.

    So basically room scale is extremely immersive and all of its applications suck.
    That is why I find a hybrid system like onward works best, with other locomotion options for people who cant handle one (raw data is an example that uses a dash style tp instead of traditional, works very well both as a more immersive method and fits in with the world).

     The only room scale you really need to get 90% of the benefits is standing room plus about an arm size radius of space in all directions. That gives you a full 360 range of motion with motion controllers, plus a bit of space for ducking and dodging and side stepping. 

    EDIT - pretty much what everyone is going to be doing with touch, just with slightly more space then a 2ft x 2ft or 3 ft by 3ft standing box. 
  • HiThere_HiThere_ Posts: 1,289
    3Jane
    edited September 2016
    For an adult ~3ft x 3ft is what you need to rotate 360° with your hands near your body.

    Enough space to stretch out your arms 360° starts at 6.5ft x 6.5ft.

    If you want to be able to both bend over and stretch your arms out, a bit more then that.

    And that's without side stepping : Add ~1 ft by sidestep.

    But basically, at 6.5ft x 6.5ft you have what you need to get rid of teleportation, lean sideways, jump and crouch, without worrying about stretching your arms out as long as you don't also bend over in the same direction.

    Less space then that and you'll be banging your hand controllers into things, and have to learn not to fully stretch your arms out. More space then that and you can bend over more and/or start moving your feet (instead of only being able to duck and lean sideways) : That's for someone ~6 ft tall.

    Where does room scale and teleportation fit in : Nowhere really, unless the game is designed to fit entirely in the size of your room (like Hover Junkers), or is designed around the concept of only teleporting instead of walking (like Jeeboman). Using teleportation for room scale in a room that's too small, or for walking, is what doesn't work, room scale should fit in a room and teleportation should be used for teleporting (not as an alternative method for walking).

  • notsramnotsram Posts: 1,238
    Wintermute
    @Shpinxis
    I thought roomscale was a gimmick too. Until I got my grubby hands on my Vive and experienced (very limited, due to space) standing games. Having now been lucky enough to try it, I would say that it's no less gimmicky than motion controllers or even the whole concept of a VR headset. Like it or not, it's a big plus point for VR gaming (IMO of course).  Yes, locomotion is an issue, but that's not the fault of the technology, more that most of us simply don't have a large enough roomspace to be able to freely move around. Sorry, but (again, IMO) motion controls add a hell of a lot to most VR games. Being able to aim, grab, throw etc add a new dimension of reality that a joypad simply doesn't come close providing.

    @Shadowmask72
    Nope, not tried Raw Data yet, but have heard good things so am eager to give it a try! Unfortunately, I have someone staying with me for a few weeks, so my VR space is temporarily occupied by a bed, but I'll definitely be trying that one :)

    @Viswar
    You can never have enough space. My current space is just over 2 metres square and I'd say that's adequate. However, much more than a pace in any direction (I'm 6'4 so have long legs!) and chaperone rears its ugly (but hugely necessary) head. For walking around, nope, not really enough space, but once you get used to the limits of chaperone and your area, it's not much of an issue, to me at least.

    @Cyril
    Your rug idea is a good one. Of course, I have chaperone to keep me from ramming into things (never yet come close to damaging anything, although I suspect that's more luck than anything else!). A rug might help a little, even with chaperone.

    @maxpare79
    Onward is another game I'm very keen to try. However, I am quite prone to motion sickness, so I'm a little wary. Plus, my roomspace is a bit small to 'rush around' in. I'll have to look into this one a bit more :) I'm not sure teleportation should go. At least not until there's a viable alternative for everyone, not just those lucky enough to have the space to move freely around in.
  • WarblokeWarbloke Posts: 931
    3Jane
    notsram said:
    I was playing Island 359 the other day. There was a packing crate standing next to me, and without thinking, I went to lean against it... and fell over.  
    I wonder if you injured yourself you could call one of those heavily advertised injury lawyers and make a case against STEAM - after all they sold you something which tricked you into believing the crate was there when it wasn't really - resulting in you becoming injured.
    "You can't believe everything you read on the Internet " :- Abraham Lincoln 
  • JakemanOculusJakemanOculus Posts: 514
    Neo
    notsram said:
    @Shpinxis
    I thought roomscale was a gimmick too. Until I got my grubby hands on my Vive and experienced (very limited, due to space) standing games. Having now been lucky enough to try it, I would say that it's no less gimmicky than motion controllers or even the whole concept of a VR headset. Like it or not, it's a big plus point for VR gaming (IMO of course).  Yes, locomotion is an issue, but that's not the fault of the technology, more that most of us simply don't have a large enough roomspace to be able to freely move around. Sorry, but (again, IMO) motion controls add a hell of a lot to most VR games. Being able to aim, grab, throw etc add a new dimension of reality that a joypad simply doesn't come close providing.

    Roomscale = gimmick
    VR inputs = awesome
    Roomscale != VR inputs
    Roomscale != awesome

    fixed
  • notsramnotsram Posts: 1,238
    Wintermute
    Atmos73 said:
    @notsram Onward is the best muliplayer game on Vive right now and you really don't need a large room to play it. Every Vive owner should own this game. Its the only game where my controllers battery runs out while playing because its so addictive and you have such a laugh while playing. Plenty of updates on the way and the Dev is second to none.
    Did a bit of reading up on this last night. Very very tempted. Looks like a lot of fun! may make this my next purchase once my visitor finally leaves and I have my VR room back!
  • notsramnotsram Posts: 1,238
    Wintermute
    Finally got to try Raw Data last night. Installed it about 6pm UK time, thought "I'll just play this for 15 minutes before I go make some food" and next thing I knew it was almost 10pm :p
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