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Motion controls when you're left handed...

notsramnotsram Posts: 1,238
Wintermute
As most of you know, I have a Vive. Which means I have motion controls. and Rift is getting motion controls soon (not before time!), so I felt it was appropriate to post this...

Motion controls add a huge amount to a game. But, and it's a big but, because we're now using our hands in games and not simply aiming with a joypad/mouse and keys, the question of which hand to use comes into play. All the games I've played so far default to the dominant hand being the right. Which is fair enough. The majority of people are right handed. However, most of these games offer no option to switch hands. Which, when you're a leftie like me, is a bit of a bummer.

I know it's early days for VR games, but the sooner games devs start catering for us southpaws, the better :)
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Comments

  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,558 Volunteer Moderator

    Good point, and for that reason I'm bumping this back to the top.

    Devs please take note.

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  • ChowmeinChowmein Posts: 19
    NerveGear
    +1 Another leftie here... Sword in left hand... shield in right! ;)
  • maxpare79maxpare79 Posts: 1,783
    Project 2501
    edited October 2016
    I heard that you can buy a patch there:

    Image result for flanders leftorium
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  • SteffenSteffen Posts: 97
    Hiro Protagonist
    Hu? I would think since the Oculus controllers were mirrored images of each other it would not be a problem to use whatever hand one would like to use.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,558 Volunteer Moderator
    edited October 2016
    Not necessarily... all depends on whether the software developer has allowed for any action in-game to be carried out by either hand, and you can't just swap the controllers over either!
    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v1903 (18363.719)
  • kzintzikzintzi Posts: 1,068
    Wintermute
    Chowmein said:
    +1 Another leftie here... Sword in left hand... shield in right! ;)
    what he said
    Though you are more than slightly incoherent, I agree with you Madam,
    a plum is a terrible thing to do to a nostril.
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,617 Valuable Player
    Not necessarily... all depends on whether the software developer has allowed for any action in-game to be carried out by either hand, and you can't just swap the controllers over either!
    Sounds like character design problem. +1 as they should allow you to use either hand the same way or at least have the ability to switch either way.
  • ZoomieZoomie Posts: 1,777 Valuable Player
    A solution would be to have the Touch controllers represent hands, rather than tools.  That way you could pick UP the appropriate tool with whatever hand you like.  Rather than having a sword fixed to the right hand, just let the player pick up a sword "object" with their dominant hand.
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    - Arthur C Clarke
  • SakkuraSakkura Posts: 267
    Nexus 6
    Zoomie said:
    A solution would be to have the Touch controllers represent hands, rather than tools.  That way you could pick UP the appropriate tool with whatever hand you like.  Rather than having a sword fixed to the right hand, just let the player pick up a sword "object" with their dominant hand.
    That is a little more complicated to implement if the game otherwise doesn't need the ability to pick up items. But yeah it's a good idea.
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,617 Valuable Player
    Sakkura said:
    Zoomie said:
    A solution would be to have the Touch controllers represent hands, rather than tools.  That way you could pick UP the appropriate tool with whatever hand you like.  Rather than having a sword fixed to the right hand, just let the player pick up a sword "object" with their dominant hand.
    That is a little more complicated to implement if the game otherwise doesn't need the ability to pick up items. But yeah it's a good idea.
    Might be, but then it begs the question how harder was it to ask the user what hand to use in the in first place? 
  • CrashFuCrashFu Posts: 1,756 Valuable Player
    On a related note, game devs should also avoid situations where the player HAS to use both hands simultaneously (unless it's absolutely CRUCIAL to the game's premise), since that would isolate players who don't have the use of both hands (either permanently, or even just temporarily, in the case of someone having an injury).

    Also, maybe I just want to do my best impersonation of "Julian" from Trailer Park Boys, and play shooting games with a drink in one hand. :neutral:    Hmm, now we just need Drink Tracking technology... like a beer-cozy with constellation lights embedded in it!
    It's hard being the voice of reason when you're surrounded by unreasonable people.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,558 Volunteer Moderator
    I can think of some VR experiences where you'd want to have one hand free
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  • ZoomieZoomie Posts: 1,777 Valuable Player
    CrashFu said:
    On a related note, game devs should also avoid situations where the player HAS to use both hands simultaneously (unless it's absolutely CRUCIAL to the game's premise), since that would isolate players who don't have the use of both hands (either permanently, or even just temporarily, in the case of someone having an injury).

    Also, maybe I just want to do my best impersonation of "Julian" from Trailer Park Boys, and play shooting games with a drink in one hand. :neutral:    Hmm, now we just need Drink Tracking technology... like a beer-cozy with constellation lights embedded in it!
    It has become increasingly popular to cater to the disabled to avoid exclusion.  While the concept has merit, in this case you're asking developers to limit their control scheme (two touch controllers) to cater to edge case users.  You're limiting the extended gameplay options of two handed users to cater to a very small group of one-handed users.

    Many games like The Climb rely specifically on two hand interaction.  I'd go so far as to say most Touch games will rely at least partially on two handed interactions.  This may simply be a by-product of the fact we're modelling the real world; In the real world users with the use of only one hand need to make-do.  In some cases they can use a prosthetic or get by with creative use of other limbs.  In some cases they simply can't do a task that requires two hands - that's why it's called a disability. 

    I'm not disagreeing with your premise - it's always good to support people as much as possible.  The issue is that VR users as a group are already a small market.  You're asking developers to potentially limit their design to cater to a very small subset of that small market.  I don't see it happening until VR has a much larger market-share.
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    - Arthur C Clarke
  • HanoverHanover Posts: 549
    Neo
    All they would have to do is mirror the screen.
  • FrozenPeaFrozenPea Posts: 2,535 Valuable Player
    As I lefty I +1 this!

    The disability aspect is interesting and really needs consideration, instead of making games not use both hands there should instead be accessibility options so people can play one handed if needed.
  • JeffNikJeffNik Posts: 152
    Art3mis
    edited October 2016
    Of course - the REAL solution is to learn to use your RIGHT hand as dominant, as the good lord INTENDED! (j/k - I'm a leftie, too). Can't wait to receive my Touch so I can experience this problem first HAND.
  • WarblokeWarbloke Posts: 931
    3Jane

    Why cant you just learn to use you right hand ?

    This is the correct hand to use... that's why it's right !

    "You can't believe everything you read on the Internet " :- Abraham Lincoln 
  • Lemming1970Lemming1970 Posts: 681
    Neo
    +1 for left handedness.
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  • GenetixStudioGenetixStudio Posts: 770
    3Jane
    I'm bumping this as well - I am left handed and hope that developers will keep it in mind when designing control schemes for Touch software.
  • leo1954auleo1954au Posts: 375
    Nexus 6
    Good point, I'm a lefty too and had to fork out heaps for a decent left handed mouse and the only joystick I could find was the Thrustmaster T-1600
  • ZoomieZoomie Posts: 1,777 Valuable Player

    Joysticks are a good indicator of how this might play out.  Vive wands are hand agnostic (AFAIK) but Touch is specific to an individual hand.  On the plus side this means Touch will be more ergonomic but the drawback is that it is specific to each hand.  While it's great to suggest every input device should cater to lefties as well, we sacrifice some utility by making everything ambidextrous.  Look at most HOTAS setups and you'll see that very few (if any?) offer left-hand stick and right hand throttle. 

    Likewise with one-handed access, it requires the control scheme to be simplified so it can be controlled with only one hand.  This means two handed users either lose potential utility or they get an unfair advantage by having twice the buttons and triggers that one handed users are able to use.

    I think it would be fairly simple to allow users to choose a dominant hand - given a controller in both hands.  I think it's a different challenge ensuring your game can be played one handed.

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    - Arthur C Clarke
  • CrashFuCrashFu Posts: 1,756 Valuable Player
    @Zoomie - The Climb would be one of the few games where two hands ARE important to the premise. Windlands would be another.

    But in the case of a shooting game, there shouldn't be anything stopping you from using one hand-gun instead of dual-wielding.  If it's some kind of melee combat game, you shouldn't be forced to carry two swords or a sword and shield.   In a general sense, it should be possible to open and use a menu with one hand, or spawn it in the air in front of you, and not HAVE to attack the menu to one hand and activate it with the other unless that's what is most convenient / comfortable for you.

    It's not just a matter of inclusion, it's about designing things well in the first place.  Like I said, maybe there isn't something wrong with my other hand, maybe I just hurt it or want to hold something with it, or challenge myself to get through a game with only one weapon.
    It's hard being the voice of reason when you're surrounded by unreasonable people.
  • ZoomieZoomie Posts: 1,777 Valuable Player

    I agree with most of what you're saying.  I agree that devs should allow one handed wherever practical.  I just don't think they will focus on it until the market is much larger.  Look at the Rift headset; There are edge cases where people have eye spacing outside the supported IPD range or a cranium too large to fit comfortably inside the HMD.  There may come a time when Oculus builds larger or smaller Rifts to allow these people to comfortably play - but not in these early days when market share is still tiny and growing.

    This is just very different from finding a way to level the playing field for people in the one handed edge cases you describe.  If you only have one sword or one pistol, do you expect to be as effective at a game as someone using a weapon and shield, or two pistols?  I suppose this only becomes a problem in competitive multiplayer where equality and equity are two different things.

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    - Arthur C Clarke
  • GreymanGreyman Posts: 1,315
    Wintermute
    Maybe you could turn to face away from the camera and that would effectively switch hands.  It seems to work for fitness video presenters.  :)

    seriously though, surely it shouldn't be too hard to just mirror the player representation, if a left-handed/right handed option is provided?  

    Hopefully devs will take note
  • zbosonzboson Posts: 994 Poster of the Week
    CrashFu said:
    On a related note, game devs should also avoid situations where the player HAS to use both hands simultaneously (unless it's absolutely CRUCIAL to the game's premise), since that would isolate players who don't have the use of both hands (either permanently, or even just temporarily, in the case of someone having an injury).

    Also, maybe I just want to do my best impersonation of "Julian" from Trailer Park Boys, and play shooting games with a drink in one hand. :neutral:    Hmm, now we just need Drink Tracking technology... like a beer-cozy with constellation lights embedded in it!
    Interesting enough I recently have become sorta one armed due to a shoulder injury. Hopefully it's only temporary but for now I mostly only use my left arm. Typing is mostly okay though.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,558 Volunteer Moderator

    As VR becomes more physically involving and realistic... there may eventually be laws of inclusion for the physically impaired... in the real world laws exist to allow equal access to goods, services and facilities, if VR becomes widespread enough, those same laws may be applied to the VR environment. Devs should start practicing their skills ahead of the curve I think.

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  • JohnMadduxJohnMaddux Posts: 74
    Hiro Protagonist
    My handedness changes depending on what I'm doing, so having left-handed options for motion controls would be great.
  • JED44JED44 Posts: 448 Poster of the Week
    edited October 2016
    @CrashFu  I think the issue you run into with trying to limit things to one hand, is not really seen with dual wielding (every game I have played you can choose to pick up that second gun or choose to use a shield. or two swords, or one sword, there really is no forcing) but with things that necessitate two hands to be mechanically appropriate or  realistic. 

    An example would be reloading a rifle. Onward is built to be a semi realistic military shooter, which means that each gun you have to manually reload by removing the magazine (either by a button press or by grabbing it and pulling it out ), grabbing the new magazine on your vest, fitting it in and pulling the hammer specific to each gun. In an instance like this it would not be fair, fun, or feasible to simplify it to one hand for all or some people. 

    There are games in which it mechanically does work, for instance battledome reloads with a single button press that takes 2-3 seconds, but that game is more of an arcadey arena shooter.

    I do think menu design you mentioned is important, Raw Data is an example of a game which could benefit from simplying the way you use menus. The options menu is brought up by pressing a button on your non dominant hand, and hovers above your wrist. Any adjusting or selection is done using a pointer on the dominant hand. While its a neat looking way to build in your options menu, It may not necessarily be the best way to do it, if ease of use is the primary concern.

    On a side note, Raw Data's gun cleric character starts out with one gun, which has to be manually reloaded by bringing a magazine close to the gun with your off hand, and then goes through a short flashy reload animation and boom. Later on you unlock the ability to duel wield ( you can just leave the gun in its holster on your other hip) and the ability to perform a quick reload by bringing the gun to your body. This would alleviate issues of only having one hand, though alot of people have asked them for the ability to toggle quick reload, in case people want a more mechanically realistic challenge. Of course Raw Data is a coop vs AI shooter, so allowing for options like that is more feasible then for competitive games. 

    EDIT - Games which make use of archery might in entirely unfeasible with one handed restrictions, unless developers want to build in the option of locking the bow in place on one hand, using the active hand to nock and pull and release, and using a look to aim system, though that seems like a huge deal of work for the small percentage of time people would actually use it. 
  • TwoHedWlfTwoHedWlf Posts: 2,234 Valuable Player
    JED44 said:
    An example would be reloading a rifle. Onward is built to be a semi realistic military shooter, which means that each gun you have to manually reload by removing the magazine (either by a button press or by grabbing it and pulling it out ), grabbing the new magazine on your vest, fitting it in and pulling the hammer specific to each gun. In an instance like this it would not be fair, fun, or feasible to simplify it to one hand for all or some people. 
    Then you just use ambidextrous rifles, or include the option of left hand variants.
  • JED44JED44 Posts: 448 Poster of the Week
    @TwoHedWlf I was referring to the scenario mentioned above where a user is physically unable to use one hand due to injury or disability . It's not physically feasible to perform those actions with one hand, a left handed rifle wouldn't matter if you could not physical use your right hand to reload it.
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