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An Article on empathy "walk a mile in their shoes"

MadarasMadaras Posts: 581
Nexus 6
edited November 2013 in General
This is an article about walking a mile in a homosexual person's shoes. In hopes to bring about understanding and reduce hatred and discrimination.

I personally think this is a good idea, not simply for the homosexual community, but for all prejudices. This type of thing could be used as a tool in the system of law. If a person commits a hate crime part of their sentence would be to live a virtual life in the lifestyle of the person that commuted a crime against (if it was based on prejudice)
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Comments

  • NewtNewt Posts: 8
    I don't really get it. Why would someone want an extremely realistic and immersive negative experience? Unless we are talking about some dystopian future where VR is used for "corrective programming" for those who don't conform to our new AI overlords.
  • MadarasMadaras Posts: 581
    Nexus 6
    Newt wrote:
    I don't really get it. Why would someone want an extremely realistic and immersive negative experience? Unless we are talking about some dystopian future where VR is used for "corrective programming" for those who don't conform to our new AI overlords.


    Hmm I wonder how heterosexuals interact in their natural habitat. One can't learn that from one's on perspective. The experience becomes too subjective, but when living through their eyes the experience becomes more objective. It doesn't have to be a negative experience, it could just be someone going to work and coming back to their family and friends.
  • raidho36raidho36 Posts: 1,312
    edited November 2013
    Just because some gays' live is harsh, makes gaykind better kind? No. It's still against the nature and people are still hatedon't like them. Any other person could have a harsh life as well. Yes I didn't bother to even glance at it, I just know what kind of text these things are laying out.

    But I mean what the hell? For whatever reason must I try to understand what drives a mentally deviated pervert? I can't even pick up right words to explain what I want to tell. It's really disturbing to me. Jesus Christ.

    User was warned for this post by cybereality.
    Discrimination and hate-speech is not allowed.
  • I may be no expert, but I find it hard to believe someone lacking compassion will be emotionally cracked by a hammy game of all things.

    Then again, a hateful belief system usually starts from some kind of brainwashing courtesy of family or religion.

    Lets just skip the games and develop VR brainwashing MWAHAHAHA. :twisted:
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  • MadarasMadaras Posts: 581
    Nexus 6
    raidho36 wrote:
    Just because some gays' live is harsh, makes gaykind better kind? mentally deviated pervert

    looks like someone is hateful. No homosexual I know is claiming that "gaykind" is better.

  • Madaras wrote:
    looks like someone is hateful. No homosexual I know is claiming that "gaykind" is better.

    I also find it ironic the first person to throw criticism is little miss pony avatar.
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  • CalanarCalanar Posts: 706
    Hiro Protagonist
    I do think that this is what will change us as people. The ability to really understand things from other people's point of view is key to this and VR can in fact help. As humans I can think of no more compelling experience than experiencing parts of each other's or a fictional person's life. The most immersive games do this now. But it can be used to teach and powerfully so. I don't think the OP is off base at all. I also don't think it will be a required/compelled experience even though it will be compelling. People will choose to do this on their own. Maybe there will be some court ordered VR hate therapy but that is something for the future to worry about because it isn't likely to be something we see near to term.

    http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/14/4431308/digital-empathy-how-hunger-in-los-angeles-broke-my-heart-virtual-reality





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    Michael Tenery, Software, RPG and Game Developer.
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  • KBKKBK Posts: 983
    Art3mis
    Newt wrote:
    I don't really get it. Why would someone want an extremely realistic and immersive negative experience?


    Show me a FPS that isn't exactly that. There's no positive side to war, no matter how some romantically driven ego may present it.
    Intelligence... is not inherent - it is a point in understanding. Q: When does a fire become self sustaining?
  • KBKKBK Posts: 983
    Art3mis
    raidho36 wrote:
    Just because some gays' live is harsh, makes gaykind better kind? No. It's still against the nature and people are still hatedon't like them. Any other person could have a harsh life as well. Yes I didn't bother to even glance at it, I just know what kind of text these things are laying out.

    But I mean what the hell? For whatever reason must I try to understand what drives a mentally deviated pervert? I can't even pick up right words to explain what I want to tell. It's really disturbing to me. Jesus Christ.

    Homosexuality is part of nature and has been so, going back in time as far as science and record can figure. It is part of the animal kingdom and part of the human experience, as well. So no, don't say things that you learned somewhere as some sort of fact and ego aspect - projected as control and intrusion into others lives.


    I guess the simulation is needed for those of flat and stunted brow.

    BTW, Jesus Christ was a man. He was from Nazareth. He had a wife. Her name was Mary.
    Intelligence... is not inherent - it is a point in understanding. Q: When does a fire become self sustaining?
  • raidho36raidho36 Posts: 1,312
    Homosexuality is part of nature and has been so, going back in time as far as science and record can figure. It is part of the animal kingdom and part of the human experience, as well. So no, don't say things that you learned somewhere as some sort of fact and ego aspect - projected as control and intrusion into others lives.

    Yeah but no. I don't hate gays or weaboos or jegova witness or vegans or whatever, as long as they keep it to themselves. But once they start to spout it everywhere around it becomes irritating fast, which then turns to annoying if they won't get over some people might have different opinions from theirs about these things, which then turns to insufferable they're persistent about it. I know there's such lobbied term as "tolerance" nowdays, but I don't feel like compelling myself to it. That's because this whole so-called "tolerance" it's like an excuse to them for not holding responsibility for their life choices and actions just because they're happen to be a minority or something. That goes completely against my life principles.

    Biggest part of these marginal communities are actually just keep it to themselves and live their lifes. But some of them are one of those aggressive type, and they do make a bad name for everyone else in their circle. And this little part is so annoying to the point that people are starting just to downright hate it. And, you know, I can't blame people for giving me impolite comments about my personality just because I might like Sonic the Hedgehog videogames or admire multicolored wolves. Althoguh sparkledog hate really isn't a common thing so you probably won't just see it on the facebook or something, but within some certain circles it's an everyday deal. Little extrapolation gives our well known bad attitude of big masses towards homosexuals. You can say it's not that, but we're all know it's true.

    Now, what do you think things like gay-parades are?
  • MadarasMadaras Posts: 581
    Nexus 6
    raidho36 wrote:
    Homosexuality is part of nature and has been so, going back in time as far as science and record can figure. It is part of the animal kingdom and part of the human experience, as well. So no, don't say things that you learned somewhere as some sort of fact and ego aspect - projected as control and intrusion into others lives.

    they start to spout it everywhere around it becomes irritating fast, which then turns to annoying if they won't get over some people might have different opinions from theirs about these things, which then turns to insufferable they're persistent about it. I know there's such lobbied term as "tolerance" nowdays, but I don't feel like compelling myself to it.

    Biggest part of these marginal communities are actually just keep it to themselves and live their lifes. But some of them are one of those aggressive type, and they do make a bad name for everyone else in their circle. And this little part is so annoying to the point that people are starting just to downright hate it.?

    I'm no major "gay activist" I personally am against most of the political "gay agenda" However I am a gay man, it is no choice for me it is a part of my existence. Because of this I've had to fight for my right to live. That's right I've had several attempts on my life simply for existing. I don't go around flirting with any guy who passes me by, never have. However I'm an honest person when people want to talk to me about relationships I'll talk about relationships. You say homosexuals are all "in your face" well that's from your point of view and that view is "I'm normal they're not" Well take a step back from that and look.

    You watch TV you'll see heterosexual relationships on every channel in every movie, can you think of a main stream film with a gay man being the protagonist? You watch Korean Drama's and the closest you'll get is "seems gay", but they turn out to not be.

    Like you said you're ok with gays as long as you don't see them. You might as well be saying I'm ok with the Chinese so long as they stay in China. I just watched the new starship trooper movie and they show naked women for like 15 minutes of the 80 minute film, but don't show a naked man. They show a heterosexual sex scene, but no gay sex scene. Watched Teen Wolf the other day. It's practically teen porn or to be more in your face (heterosexuals that is) the main character is constantly sexual active with his girlfriend.

    So before you start saying "gaykind" is all up in your face YOU should walk a mile in our shoes. You should consider what it's like that when you allow yourself to be honest with your family and friends there's a strong chance they will reject you, in some countries kill you. You should understand that when a nice gay man happens to be having a picnic with his boyfriend there's a risk they will be attacked if seen kissing or even holding hands if you can not understand these things, if you think that you're religious for hating people who haven't wronged you then you need to get your morals checked.
  • raidho36raidho36 Posts: 1,312
    You say homosexuals are all "in your face" well that's from your point of view and that view is "I'm normal they're not" Well take a step back from that and look.
    I don't think you got me quite right. I meant that people shouldn't empathise on their sexual orientation, or race, or nationality, or whatever - none of that stuff grants you better treatment. You're gay? Well great but I'm not interested. Does it makes you feel better to state your orientation? You think anti-gay protests in europe stems out of nothing? You can instead just keep it to yourself so people don't have to suppress their actual attitude in the name of politeness. That's the whole point. You also made yourself sound like "that kind", although I'm not discussing this.

    Your stereotypes are not in the right place.
  • tngtng Posts: 1
    I see VR development as a new form of expression, it will be interesting to see all the different approaches as the technology matures.

    There will be those who use it as a tool for education, those that try and sell something, those who try to push an agenda or belief system, and those who just want to enhance their recreational experience.

    The lines between these viewpoints will blur and there will no doubt be crossover, but to me the bottom line is interest. If the content is interesting, it will probably do well. If we learn something along the way, even better.

    I feel a good developer should make their point through creative subtlety, rather than brute force tactics, regardless of the subject matter.

    This raises some interesting questions about ratings and censorship, as VR improves, the user experience will become more personal. I think it will be important to advise the participant of themes that they might find upsetting without limiting developers creativity or expression. I'm not sure the current rating system (flawed in my opinion) will be up to the task.

    It should be a wild ride.

    2 cents.
  • MadarasMadaras Posts: 581
    Nexus 6
    raidho36 wrote:
    You say homosexuals are all "in your face" well that's from your point of view and that view is "I'm normal they're not" Well take a step back from that and look.
    I don't think you got me quite right. I meant that people shouldn't empathise on their sexual orientation, or race, or nationality, or whatever - none of that stuff grants you better treatment. You're gay? Well great but I'm not interested. Does it makes you feel better to state your orientation? You think anti-gay protests in europe stems out of nothing? You can instead just keep it to yourself so people don't have to suppress their actual attitude in the name of politeness. That's the whole point. You also made yourself sound like "that kind", although I'm not discussing this.
    Your stereotypes are not in the right place.

    I agree with only 1 point you make "I meant that people shouldn't empathise on their sexual orientation, or race, or nationality, or whatever" however I did get you right. Your comments seethe with bigotry (" For whatever reason must I try to understand what drives a mentally deviated pervert? I can't even pick up right words to explain what I want to tell. It's really disturbing to me".) Though you must apparently not get me right or choose to ignore my point. I only ever mention my orientation when making a point, otherwise in all of my 300+ post you'd see it's not mentioned once, even at the start of this thread I did not mention it. It's a personal matter to me and so are my experiences. I shared my experience to try and help give you understanding of what people like myself go through. If you can't repress your rage when you see two guys kissing then you do need some psychological evaluation. Why are you angry. Why is the business of two others so important to you. You do not see gay people complaining about seeing all of the heterosexual PDA everywhere and I can understand your discomfort because I feel quite uncomfortable seeing Hetro PDA. I do not lash out at them though, why? It's not because i'm in the minority it's because I have respect for other people as humans. People have the right to be happy it doesn't matter if it's by being alone or with a guy or with a girl.
  • raidho36 wrote:
    No. It's still against the nature...

    That's just ignorant. Read up on the subject and quit hating.

    If it was "against nature", why are so many people born gay?
  • VinVin Posts: 874
    Brain Burst
    Honestly, who cares? Take this to Off Topic or PM. This is entirely the wrong forum for any discussion.
  • MadarasMadaras Posts: 581
    Nexus 6
    Vin wrote:
    Honestly, who cares? Take this to Off Topic or PM. This is entirely the wrong forum for any discussion.

    I think you're talking about what it's become, not what it is. The original topic is The Oculus Rift's potential for use as an empathetic learning tool. Which makes it appropriate for discussion here.
  • FritoFrito Posts: 924
    NerveGear
    edited November 2013
    lol, what is this, anal sex vr simulator? I pass, thx


    edit> i want a banana simulator, so I can understand bananas
  • MadarasMadaras Posts: 581
    Nexus 6
    Frito wrote:
    lol, what is this, anal sex vr simulator? I pass, thx

    That came out of left field...far left field....you're practically sitting on Obama's lap.
  • madmickmadmick Posts: 134
    Bigotry in this case homophobia is wrong on any forum :x
  • Vin wrote:
    Honestly, who cares? Take this to Off Topic or PM. This is entirely the wrong forum for any discussion.

    I agree that this is the wrong forum, but ignorance needs to be addressed.
  • I really don't think it is worth it. People with such distorted, illogical views on things like homosexuality are not going to be convinced by an Internet argument. If anything the Internet just encourages them to be shamelessly dumb about it.

    I am interested in that recreation of a real life event which was posted on the previous page. I can see something like that being effective, especially to report real events. Maybe journalists can film news and interviews in 360 and we can have VR news. :3
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  • mondo50mmondo50m Posts: 103
    Why hasn't the moderator of this forum stepped and stopped this dribble. It doesn't belong here and has nothing to do with the Rift. This is not a political forum or a human rights forum. It is a forum about new technology. Can we get back to what this forum was created for and a leave this other 'crap' alone, please!!
  • MadarasMadaras Posts: 581
    Nexus 6
    Octomelon wrote:
    I really don't think it is worth it. People with such distorted, illogical views on things like homosexuality are not going to be convinced by an Internet argument. If anything the Internet just encourages them to be shamelessly dumb about it.

    I am interested in that recreation of a real life event which was posted on the previous page. I can see something like that being effective, especially to report real events. Maybe journalists can film news and interviews in 360 and we can have VR news. :3

    I like it. It would be interesting to have a VR news network.
  • raidho36raidho36 Posts: 1,312
    We already have games like "Gone Home".

    In VR, we're gonna get "VR Gone Home" - the same game, only with more realistically looking surroundings.
  • VinVin Posts: 874
    Brain Burst
    Madaras wrote:
    Vin wrote:
    Honestly, who cares? Take this to Off Topic or PM. This is entirely the wrong forum for any discussion.

    I think you're talking about what it's become, not what it is. The original topic is The Oculus Rift's potential for use as an empathetic learning tool. Which makes it appropriate for discussion here.

    This "empathetic learning tool" isn't accurate enough for any real use. It'd be saying hey look, this is how all non straight people live, which means you're presenting a stereotype and sending people the wrong message at the end of the day.

    It's extremely flawed, especially when you start talking about forcing people to live as another race. You'd what, show them what a hard life minorities have, and teach people that minorities have it so hard because they are a minority? Now you're enforcing the idea that all minorities are poor or hated or see racism everyday, or worse, the idea that they should.

    But neither the article nor discussion here are about tolerance.

    The article is a question of why there is not more LGBT material available for the Rift. Good question. Everyone who owns one has a free four month Unity trial. So why aren't they making content instead of complaining about it?
  • Vin wrote:
    Madaras wrote:
    Vin wrote:
    The article is a question of why there is not more LGBT material available for the Rift. Good question. Everyone who owns one has a free four month Unity trial. So why aren't they making content instead of complaining about it?

    Although you make a good point in your post, lets be honest, you ended on a weak bit here.

    Move over game design studios and talented indies, all anyone needs is a brief trial of a tool that handles one aspect of game development, so they make any game they ever wanted in a matter of months with no prior experience! THE SECRET IS OUT FOLKS! :lol:
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  • MadarasMadaras Posts: 581
    Nexus 6
    Vin wrote:
    Madaras wrote:
    Vin wrote:
    Honestly, who cares? Take this to Off Topic or PM. This is entirely the wrong forum for any discussion.

    I think you're talking about what it's become, not what it is. The original topic is The Oculus Rift's potential for use as an empathetic learning tool. Which makes it appropriate for discussion here.

    This "empathetic learning tool" isn't accurate enough for any real use. It'd be saying hey look, this is how all non straight people live, which means you're presenting a stereotype and sending people the wrong message at the end of the day.

    It's extremely flawed, especially when you start talking about forcing people to live as another race. You'd what, show them what a hard life minorities have, and teach people that minorities have it so hard because they are a minority? Now you're enforcing the idea that all minorities are poor or hated or see racism everyday, or worse, the idea that they should.

    But neither the article nor discussion here are about tolerance.

    The article is a question of why there is not more LGBT material available for the Rift. Good question. Everyone who owns one has a free four month Unity trial. So why aren't they making content instead of complaining about it?

    I think you have a narrow minded view on the applications. Do you know all of the spiritual beliefs in Kenya, or the different cultures in the middle east, how holidays in Sweden are celebrated? Do you know what's important to your neighbors and understand why they may view something differently than you do? It's not all about "I have a hard life" though that is part of it for some. It's also about where they come from how we're raised where our ancestors came from. To create Virtual stories to let you walk in the shoes of another will allow greater understandings between all peoples and all religions I believe that is a worth while goal.

    Maybe you're right and it's pointless for people to bother trying to understand each other, but I refuse to believe that yet. I would like to live in a world where people are no longer self absorbed, but interested in what other people think. Who care when they see someone hurt. A world of compassion for your fellow human. I'm sorry that you don't share this opinion, I do hope that in time you will.
  • If anything I would rather recreate what Vin previously mentioned. Not that I'm saying the life of a homosexual is perfect but lets be honest here. You will never know what it's like to save lives by taking the long way to school, or what it's like carrying a stolen firearm purely for self defense unless you have experienced that lifestyle from the ground up.
  • VinVin Posts: 874
    Brain Burst
    Octomelon wrote:
    Move over game design studios and talented indies, all anyone needs is a brief trial of a tool that handles one aspect of game development, so they make any game they ever wanted in a matter of months with no prior experience! THE SECRET IS OUT FOLKS! :lol:

    The point is the tools to make a compelling story are available. To say that "yes, we could do something but since this other person is better so why bother?" is sort of self-defeating out the gate. With all the free resources available for Unity, someone with no experience could indeed come up with something workable in four months. Then what? Well, use your demo, get a kickstarter done, take some money and hire people who have talent, throw some polish on it and bamf.
    Madaras wrote:
    Do you know all of the spiritual beliefs in Kenya, or the different cultures in the middle east, how holidays in Sweden are celebrated?

    I sure don't. And playing a video game will never instill into me a respect for what people who follow those cultures know. Let's take a Final Fantasy favorite, for example. The Ahriman. Ahriman is a central figure in Zoroastrianism, but we don't know anything about that. We don't know how Ahriman balances Ahura Mazda. We don't even know who Ahura Mazda is, but we do know Ahriman is a giant flying eyeball with a mouth that you kill a lot of. We know we can summon Shiva and she does ice damage.

    The point is that you can't can't force an experience on someone and call it empathy. They have zero frame of reference to really link things together, and empathy wasn't even part of the article really.

    The point of the article boils down to:

    ...why can’t I have gay virtual reality sex?

    It's not available as part of some systemic discrimination, like the author of this article tries to lead you to believe. It's not the fault of Wicked Paradise that they wanted to create a heterosexual simulation. That's what they thought of, and that's what they did.

    If there's a content gap, then it's because there's a group of content creators missing. Someone should rise up to create the content, especially if they feel strongly about the lack of said content.

    The author does nail the hit on the head, though, when he says

    Not that I’d want to chisel the portrayal people’s lives into a short game, an LGBT zoo for the player to browse from a safe distance, but I think there could be some positive moves to be made in pursuing this thought process.

    If there are some positive moves to be made that can do something without setting up an "LGBT zoo" for people to go and look at and be like, "Man, their life sucks, they shouldn't have chosen to be gay" then someone needs to make something of it. Standing around with your hand out is a great way to catch falling snow, but a horrible way to build something.

    I'm a libertarian, so I believe everyone should go do what they want. I don't have to empathize with anyone over their choices or nonchoices or lifestyles. In fact, I think it's more offensive to state that there can be such a thing as a homosexual empathy experience, because it demeans homosexuals into a label. If we're talking JUST America, you have 330 million people, each who have a story. To say that an entire group of them no longer have individual stories, and here's their story live on Rift is just stereotyping.

    Why not accept that a stereotype doesn't need to be enforced? The author of the article certainly had that on his mind at some point while writing it.

    PS: I love how you want to paint me as a sociopath just because I don't think there should be special treatment for self-imposed labels and stereotypes, when I'm clearly arguing that stereotypes are bad.

    PPS: I made up a normal people quote up above that I'm sure nobody is gonna catch the subtlety of. "They shouldn't have chosen to be gay." I'm aware that for a great many, there is no choice in the matter. I'm also aware that a lot of people aren't aware of that. That's where this quote comes from, from the great many who don't get it.

    PPPS:
    mrscratch wrote:
    You will never know what it's like ... unless you have experienced that lifestyle from the ground up.

    Absolutely correct. That's why the idea of an empathy machine that forces you to live in the footsteps of <insert minority here> is flawed, and does a disservice to <insert minority here>.
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