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The problem with multiplayer

cybernettrcybernettr Posts: 627
Neo
 I was an echo arena last night and I noticed an interesting phenomenon going on: major segregation according to age.  There were a lot of kids in the game, which was obvious from their voices, and they were giggling and laughing and playing around and obviously having a lot of fun, but they were mainly staying in the reception area (or whatever it's called).  

They were huddling around, forming trains by grabbing each other's legs, and generally goofing off, but they weren't playing any of the actual competitive games, as far as I could tell.  I heard one of the older players even say "Wow, kids!" as he scurried off to another area.  I even heard one of the kids saying that he enjoys waiting for newbies to coming to the game so he could pester and confuse them. 

 I thought this was just the general frivolous nature of being a young kid, but after thinking about it, it occurred to me that a possible reason for this is quite different: a young kid simply cannot compete with the greater hand-eye coordination of an older player.  I can understand why. I'm far from a kid, and yet I went into the gaming arena and simply could not begin to keep up with some of the more skilled players there.  

I enjoy the ambience and atmosphere of VR, but I'm not a natural born gamer and I never will be, no matter how much I practice.  I actually prefer playing against an AI, which can be tuned to your specific skill level, rather than a random player whose skill level probably does not come close your own.  

And this, I think, is the problem with multiplayer.  Unless you arrange a meet up with people you know, you are not likely to get much satisfaction from playing against a random stranger. 
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Comments

  • falken76falken76 Posts: 1,654 Poster of the Week
    This "Multiplayer" problem reared it's ugly head around 1991 when Street Fighter 2 hit the scene.  In the beginning it was all good and fun because it was new to everyone, including the casual gamer that was used to the one button arcade games of yesteryear at that point.  As time went on, people started getting better and better at this game, competition with peers became the draw of the game.  Then the people that got great at it were the same people you'd see at 7-11, Circle-K, Golf 'n Stuff, the local arcade playing the game no matter what time of day you strolled into the establishment.  They put hundreds of hours into the game and that segment of players caused the casual gamer to lose interest, who wants to put a quarter into a game and compete against the nerd with no life that spent the last 23 hours playing the game?

    This process has increased 100 fold today, now I can't even enjoy a game of Street Fighter V if it has any online opponent because the people that like it enough to pay for the game spend so much time playing it they're just so good that it makes me never want to play the game.  I have no desire to practice for hours on end like they all do so I am unable to enjoy the game unless there actually is a single player portion to the game.  In the late 90s, games seemed to gravitate towards multiplayer until at some point single player was not a main focus.  I gave up on games at that point, VR brought me back to them, but when this VR stuff goes mainstream and it's adopted by the average consumer I suspect I'll run into the same problem yet again and the rift will then be boxed up and hardly used because it is no longer "fun" to me.

  • ExpediterExpediter Posts: 113
    Art3mis
    Every competitive game/ sport in the world is like this.  People are better than other people and when the game has no devisions or ranking system used to match players you will be destroyed by people who are just naturally good at competitive games. 

    onward has the same problem?? I don't call it a problem because I enjoy an insane challenge, something AI can never give. When VR becomes huge , perhaps they can start making ranking systems used to match like skilled players. 
  • SnackyAUSnackyAU Posts: 39
    Brain Burst
    People will always be better - There is always someone who is more skilled so no matter what just focus on what you can do better.

    I remember i was playing a very competitive game.. i used to get so damn frustrated .. WHY can't i beat these people? Is it luck? are they just older more experienced players at the game.. what is it? Turns out that i was so focused on what the skill gap was and not on my own mistakes. Once you do that no skill gap is too big
  • cybernettrcybernettr Posts: 627
    Neo
    Expediter said:
    I don't call it a problem because I enjoy an insane challenge, something AI can never give
    Ironically, some AI systems are teaching themselves to play many video games better than the best human players. It's just a matter of time before AIs can beat humans at ALL non-physical games. 




  • ExpediterExpediter Posts: 113
    Art3mis
    Expediter said:
    I don't call it a problem because I enjoy an insane challenge, something AI can never give
    Ironically, some AI systems are teaching themselves to play many video games better than the best human players. It's just a matter of time before AIs can beat humans at ALL non-physical games. 




    Game designers could make impossible AI right now. And have been able to for years. When programming pathfinding the ai knows where you are at all times and can have perfect aim to kill you in one hit. The problem with programming ai is making it seem like it doesn't know where you are and also making it appear as if it has tactics as aposed to just perfect aim. Playing humans is a lot more satisfying at the moment because unless they are cheating they have only skill as an advantage not complete knowledge of the battle field like ai. 
  • cybernettrcybernettr Posts: 627
    Neo
    SnackyAU said:
    I remember i was playing a very competitive game.. i used to get so damn frustrated .. WHY can't i beat these people? Is it luck? are they just older more experienced players at the game.. what is it? Turns out that i was so focused on what the skill gap was and not on my own mistakes. Once you do that no skill gap is too big
     I disagree. There's no way to discount the matter of inborn talent. Some people are just more talented at certain games than others, just as some are more talented the cooking, or drawing or needlework.  

    This is one of the most destructive things you can say to a kid possible, and sadly, it is sometimes heard in schools, that "you can be anything you want to be if you just put your mind to it."

    Absolute rubbish!

    99% of the kids who want to be professional basketball players never will be.  It's far better to tell kids to discover their talents than to tell them "they can be anything they want to be."
  • cybernettrcybernettr Posts: 627
    Neo

    Expediter said:

    When programming pathfinding the ai knows where you are at all times and can have perfect aim to kill you in one hit. The problem with programming ai is making it seem like it doesn't know where you are and also making it appear as if it has tactics as aposed to just perfect aim. Playing humans is a lot more satisfying at the moment because unless they are cheating they have only skill as an advantage not complete knowledge of the battle field like ai. 
     Creating an AI that doesn't know where the player is and what is going on in the battlefield at all times is a challenge but it is definitely possible.  For example, in Robo Recall, if you hide, teleport or duck out of view for a moment, the robots will look around for you in a confused way and say "Where is the recaller?" before they finally spot you.  It is actually possible to hide and ambush the bots if you want to – one of the things that makes the game so great.

    This is not to say that the AI is perfect. For example, if you go into the tunnel while battling Odin, he will keep shooting his rockets at the top of the tunnel without realizing that the rockets can't go through the solid pavement.  So the AI in the game is not perfect, but it definitely shows that game AI does not have to be omniscient. 

     In the AI that learns how to play video games, they do not have inside knowledge of what is going on in the game. Some are tied in directly to the video display, but they do not have access to the game code.  They have to learn how to play through trial and error.  Some do not even have access to the XY coordinates of all pixels on the screen but are basically just cameras pointed at the game screen, so they see the game exactly as a human would see it. 
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 2,630 Valuable Player
    Developers therefore need to tailor their multiplayer better to suit age demographics and player skill. It's no good just having Ranked and Unranked areas because this does not address those players who simply are better but still want to beat on the less skilled players.  

    I think more complex systems need to be designed into these games where a player profile is stored behind the scenes which then puts players into segregated lobbies with like-minded players ( something matchmaking attempts to do - usually quite unsuccessfully). A wider range of lobby types is needed (including a general place for all and sundry) and if your skill doesn't fit a particular lobby you're locked out. So the software doesn't just rely on the perception the player has of themselves.


    System Specs: GTX 1080 ti , i7 4790K CPU, 16 GB RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
  • cybernettrcybernettr Posts: 627
    Neo
    edited July 16
    Right, if one player beats another player or scores "x" number of times, the game could then match that player in the next round with a player of a similar score, and so on. So that the game doesn't reset each time it is relaunched, it could remember the player's ranking from one time to the next.  Only problem with this is that it limits the number of possible opponents a player can play against, and some games can already be pretty lonely in nonpeak hours. 
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 8,040 Power Poster
    edited July 16
    SnackyAU said:
    I remember i was playing a very competitive game.. i used to get so damn frustrated .. WHY can't i beat these people? Is it luck? are they just older more experienced players at the game.. what is it? Turns out that i was so focused on what the skill gap was and not on my own mistakes. Once you do that no skill gap is too big
     I disagree. There's no way to discount the matter of inborn talent. Some people are just more talented at certain games than others, just as some are more talented the cooking, or drawing or needlework. 
    That sounds good in theory, but I agree with SnackyAU. Once you decide to focus on honing your own skills then the "gap" can be covered quite easily. It is especially true if you focus on making your weaknesses another one of your strengths.

    Let's take the "Jordan vs Lebron" debate. I'm a Jordan fan, and while he certainly has natural talent, throughout his years he made it very clear that he practiced excessively since his childhood years.

    A good writeup about Jordan's views on the "born vs made" idea:
    One particular element of his answer struck me, and stayed in my memory: that people tended to think of him as a great natural athlete. What bothered him about this perception was that it somehow underestimated all the hard work he did to become the outstanding player he became.

    When Phil Jackson, former coach of Michael Jordan’s Chicago Bulls, describes this star player’s work ethic, he speaks with admiration of Jordan’s drive, his desire to improve every day in practice. Jackson says that Michael would simply exercise with greater concentration than anyone else, that he would work himself “into a lather” with his intensity, and that he would push himself ever harder whenever things got more difficult. Even when he had become the premier player in the game, he rarely took a day off from his demanding practice routine.

    http://www.johnsadowsky.com/a-message-from-michael-jordan-on-talent-and-practice/

    In contrast, Lebron is trying to become "the next Jordan" but having a hard time getting public acknowledgement. Lebron was born with some natural gifts (he's a huge dude) and there are some other natural talents as well. But he has not even come close to becoming a Legend the status of Jordan... cause hard work vs talent makes the difference. Lebron is trying to fill "Jordan's shoes," not the other way around. Jordan created a larger gap due to hard work.


    Or for you Anime fans... Neji from Naruto is a character who believes that natural born talent is tied to destiny, "You thought you could success through hard work alone. That’s just an illusion."

    But then Naruto who was born with almost no real talent whooped Neji's arse in the episode titled, "A Failure's True Power"

    "I told you, I just don’t know when to give up."
     



    Neji never advances much throughout the 20 years of the show. He simply hones his skills as best he can based on his natural born talents. Whereas Naruto becomes near godlike when compared to Neji, as Naruto's hard work elevates him to a status unattainable by most.

    Just saying :p
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane

  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 2,630 Valuable Player
    :star: for the Naruto reference.


    System Specs: GTX 1080 ti , i7 4790K CPU, 16 GB RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
  • RorschachPhoenixRorschachPhoenix Posts: 1,577 Valuable Player
    falken76 said:
    This "Multiplayer" problem reared it's ugly head around 1991 when Street Fighter 2 hit the scene.  In the beginning it was all good and fun because it was new to everyone, including the casual gamer that was used to the one button arcade games of yesteryear at that point.  As time went on, people started getting better and better at this game, competition with peers became the draw of the game.  Then the people that got great at it were the same people you'd see at 7-11, Circle-K, Golf 'n Stuff, the local arcade playing the game no matter what time of day you strolled into the establishment.  They put hundreds of hours into the game and that segment of players caused the casual gamer to lose interest, who wants to put a quarter into a game and compete against the nerd with no life that spent the last 23 hours playing the game?

    This process has increased 100 fold today, now I can't even enjoy a game of Street Fighter V if it has any online opponent because the people that like it enough to pay for the game spend so much time playing it they're just so good that it makes me never want to play the game.  I have no desire to practice for hours on end like they all do so I am unable to enjoy the game unless there actually is a single player portion to the game.  In the late 90s, games seemed to gravitate towards multiplayer until at some point single player was not a main focus.  I gave up on games at that point, VR brought me back to them, but when this VR stuff goes mainstream and it's adopted by the average consumer I suspect I'll run into the same problem yet again and the rift will then be boxed up and hardly used because it is no longer "fun" to me.

    Back in the days I was used to play multiplayer games with my friends a lot. They came over with their bulky PCs and monitors and we played the whole night via lan cable. We've played a lot of multiplayer games: Command & Conquer, Total Annihilation, Age of Empires, Duke Nukem 3D, Quake 3 Arena, Unreal Tournament (the first one), Counter-Strike (the Original), Diablo 1 and Diablo 2 and some others.

    I never got used to play games via internet with people I don't knew. I've played games to have some fun. At some point playing games in multiplayer (especially with people you don't knew) over the internet was no fun at all.
    I remember playing Counter-Strike over the internet and got killed immediately (1-2 seconds) after respawn. Every time. That was no fun at all. And then you had your "Team members" which were some rude kids. They called you motherfucker and kicked you out of a game when your "performance" wasn't good enough.

    Nowadays multiplayer gaming is no gaming anymore (at least for me), it is not even a sport, it is more like work. And maybe not even that. Feels more like being in a street gang or the mafia or something like that.

    Always loosing in a game makes no fun. Get verbally beaten up by your socalled "friends" or team members makes even less fun. Therefore I focussed on single player games and I am still avoid playing multiplayer games till then. I am playing against AI, because the AI does not kick you out of a game when you're trying to have some fun.
    Excuse my bad english. I speak to you through the google translator. :P
  • cybernettrcybernettr Posts: 627
    Neo
    Zenbane said:

    That sounds good in theory, but I agree with SnackyAU. Once you decide to focus on honing your own skills then the "gap" can be covered quite easily. It is especially true if you focus on making your weaknesses another one of your strengths.
     Wait a minute, Zenbane, in a thread on Oculus Medium, you yourself said you didn't use it because you were "not an artist." By the reasoning you just articulated, if you merely focused on your weakness of "not being an artist" by practicing a little, you could easily turn sculpting into one of your "strengths" and quickly rival that of any of the top Medium artists here on this forum!  :D
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 8,040 Power Poster
    edited July 16
    Yes that is 100% correct cybernettr!

    I lack the motivation to hone my artistic skills when it comes to drawing, painting, and sculpting. In my case, I am content having honed my skills as a musician (guitar), as I mentioned here:

    https://forums.oculus.com/community/discussion/comment/485968/#Comment_485968
    After that, I graduated to mastering instrumentals from Metallica: Call of Ktulu, Orion, To Live is To Die.

    Probably my biggest accomplishment was learning "For the Love of God" by Steve Vai,




    I think it took me about 2 years of practice, off and on, to get through that song start to finish. I retired from learning hard shit after that


    We all have a choice, which is the point.

    Just because you face someone with natural talent(s) doesn't mean hard work can't overcome. But you have to make that choice.
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane

  • cybernettrcybernettr Posts: 627
    Neo
    You must be a blast in Rock Band VR! That doesn't change the fact that you can't polish a turd, and all the practice in the world its not going to make you good at something you have no talent at.  

    Besides that, why put all your time and effort into mastering a dumb game?  Most people are not going to make any money doing that. You are never going to earn a living from it.

    Plus, there are hundreds of great games out there. Are you going to spend all your time trying to master one game instead of having fun enjoying all that the world of gaming has to offer?

    Even if you devoted all your time to one game, there's no way  you could do the same thing with all the other hundred games out there you would like to master. There just aren't enough hours in the day. Plus, an AI will come along eventually and beat all human players anyway (just like in chess, checkers, Go, Jeopardy, Space Invaders, Doom, Texas Hold 'Em Poker, etc. etc.).  :D

     If it's just a matter of practice, I would prefer to devote my time to Oculus Medium, because then I would have something to show for all that work.

    Just sayin'
  • RorschachPhoenixRorschachPhoenix Posts: 1,577 Valuable Player
    Zenbane said:
    Yes that is 100% correct cybernettr!

    I lack the motivation to hone my artistic skills when it comes to drawing, painting, and sculpting. In my case, I am content having honed my skills as a musician (guitar), as I mentioned here:

    https://forums.oculus.com/community/discussion/comment/485968/#Comment_485968
    After that, I graduated to mastering instrumentals from Metallica: Call of Ktulu, Orion, To Live is To Die.

    Probably my biggest accomplishment was learning "For the Love of God" by Steve Vai,




    I think it took me about 2 years of practice, off and on, to get through that song start to finish. I retired from learning hard shit after that


    We all have a choice, which is the point.

    Just because you face someone with natural talent(s) doesn't mean hard work can't overcome. But you have to make that choice.
    Passion is also a thing though. I had tried to learn playing guitar for a year or two. End of story. :D
    I've took lessons once a week. But I just couldn't do it. There were other guys that could play guitar in a month. I couldn't do it in a year. It was like learning math. Sometimes you can learn and learn, but if you can't wrap your head around it, at some point you have to stop wasting your time with false dreams of becoming a rock star.
    Excuse my bad english. I speak to you through the google translator. :P
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 8,040 Power Poster
    You must be a blast in Rock Band VR! That doesn't change the fact that you can't polish a turd
    Your argument is that you "cant polish a turd" ??

    lmao - that's not a real thing, and it's certainly not a fact.

    Every human starts off a turd. A slimy, screaming, helpless little mammal. Then we go to school and learn stuff. Which means... turds are getting polished. It's always awkward when you say things like, "can't change the fact" and then you follow with a non-factual metaphor. You do it in every debate lol

    Reminds me of those folks who misuse the phrase "literally" when they really mean "figuratively." Like, "I'm literally drowning right now," when they are just sitting in the living room talking about their life problems, and nowhere near water :D

    Besides that, why put all your time and effort into mastering a dumb game?  Most people are not going to make any money doing that. You are never going to earn a living from it.

    I'm not one to try to earn a living playing video games... but there are people making quite a bit of money doing it. So again, you aren't really referring to anything factual:
    https://www.esportsearnings.com/games

    Over $100 million for DoTa 2; 41 million for Leage of Legends; 35 million for Counter-Strike; 23 million for StarCraft II.
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane

  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 8,040 Power Poster
    edited July 16
    RorschachPhoenix said:
    Passion is also a thing though. I had tried to learn playing guitar for a year or two. End of story. :D
    I've took lessons once a week. But I just couldn't do it. There were other guys that could play guitar in a month. I couldn't do it in a year. It was like learning math. Sometimes you can learn and learn, but if you can't wrap your head around it, at some point you have to stop wasting your time with false dreams of becoming a rock star.
    There's a few different things going on in all that. First, being a Rock Star has nothing to do with being a talented musician. Some of the best musicians in the world are not part of mainstream stardom. And historically, many mainstream "rockstars" aren't even real musicians.

    Second, how many hours each day did you actually commit to learning the guitar? Did you practice until your fingers bled in between your "once a week" classes?

    I was terrible at the guitar when I first tried. I didn't even understand how to "tune" it. The idea of a "chord" or "scale" was completely over my head. But I had my Metallica and Megadeth albums that I listened to repeatedly... and as you said, passion plays a role. I refused to allow my ignorance to prevent me from eventually learning how to sound like my Metal icons. It took hundreds of frustrating hours, and then one day it all "clicked."

    In your story you mention a once a week class followed by giving up. That's not a story of "hard work," that's a story of someone who "dabbled" for 2 years and then stopped dabbling. Simply "trying" and doing the bare minimum, or even average amount, isn't the same thing as hard work. The term "hard work" typically equates to things like: blood, sweat, and tears.

    Quick Addendum:
    I hope that doesn't sound like I'm chastising. I'm just trying to distinguish between "trying" vs "hard work." In fact, I have no doubt that you could have mastered the guitar if you had chosen to bleed for it @RorschachPhoenix
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane

  • RorschachPhoenixRorschachPhoenix Posts: 1,577 Valuable Player
    edited July 16
    Zenbane said:
    RorschachPhoenix said:
    Passion is also a thing though. I had tried to learn playing guitar for a year or two. End of story. :D
    I've took lessons once a week. But I just couldn't do it. There were other guys that could play guitar in a month. I couldn't do it in a year. It was like learning math. Sometimes you can learn and learn, but if you can't wrap your head around it, at some point you have to stop wasting your time with false dreams of becoming a rock star.
    There's a few different things going on in all that. First, being a Rock Star has nothing to do with being a talented musician. Some of the best musicians in the world are not part of mainstream stardom. And historically, many mainstream "rockstars" aren't even real musicians.

    Second, how many hours each day did you actually commit to learning the guitar? Did you practice until your fingers bled in between your "once a week" classes?

    I was terrible at the guitar when I first tried. I didn't even understand how to "tune" it. The idea of a "chord" or "scale" was completely over my head. But I had my Metallica and Megadeth albums that I listened to repeatedly... and as you said, passion plays a role. I refused to allow my ignorance to prevent me from eventually learning how to sound like my Metal icons. It took hundreds of frustrating hours, and then one day it all "clicked."

    In your story you mention a once a week class followed by giving up. That's not a story of "hard work," that's a story of someone who "dabbled" for 2 years and then stopped dabbling. Simply "trying" and doing the bare minimum, or even average amount, isn't the same thing as hard work. The term "hard work" typically equates to things like: blood, sweat, and tears.
    Well, you're right. Because I was lacking a very important piece: Passion

    First: I wasn't playing enough. I played maybe an hour a day. And I even called it "training".
    If you are really into something, you will at least do it for 4-8 hours a day. Or even longer if you have the time to do it.
    Second: To love playing guitar has nothing to do with becoming a rock star. That is why most of the talent shows suck. A lot of the people aren't there because they like what they do. They just want to become a star.

    But you need passion. You need love. You can go only that far with discipline and hard working. But without passion... it makes no sense. And it will eat you up.

    On the other hand: Talent and passion is worth nothing if you don't put the hard work in and have some discipline to get better. I have seen very talented people given up way too fast. And lesser talented people getting better, because they are working so fucking hard.
    Excuse my bad english. I speak to you through the google translator. :P
  • cybernettrcybernettr Posts: 627
    Neo
    Zenbane said:

    I'm not one to try to earn a living playing video games... but there are people making quite a bit of money doing it. So again, you aren't really referring to anything factual:
    https://www.esportsearnings.com/games

    Over $100 million for DoTa 2; 41 million for Leage of Legends; 35 million for Counter-Strike; 23 million for StarCraft II.
     Yeah, a lot of that game playing is being outsourced to places like India. It's a lot easier to earn a living gaming when your living expenses are $12 a day, counting electricity. 
  • cybernettrcybernettr Posts: 627
    Neo

    Zenbane said:

    Every human starts off a turd. A slimy, screaming, helpless little mammal. Then we go to school and learn stuff. Which means... turds are getting polished. 
     No, each baby is a bundle of genetic potential. Each one is born with the potential to be good at certain things (and not so good at other things).

    Actually, it works out pretty well that way, as each child, discovering his or her inborn talents, can find their niche in life and contribute in their own unique way to society.  That is, if they are encouraged to find out what those talents are rather than being bamboozled with dippy slogans like "you can be anything you want to be, if you just set your mind to it."
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 8,040 Power Poster
    edited July 17
    No, each baby is a bundle of genetic potential. Each one is born with the potential to be good at certain things (and not so good at other things). 
    If your argument is that each person is born predestined to only excel at certain things, then that is the exact opposite of potential. Anyone can achieve anything through hard work. Everything else you're saying is something people convince themselves of in order to justify laziness.

    cybernettr said:
    That is, if they are encouraged to find out what those talents are rather than being bamboozled with dippy slogans like "you can be anything you want to be, if you just set your mind to it."

    These are not mutually exclusive things. It is possible to believe you can be anything you want while also discovering your own talents. Once you decide what you want to be you can then figure out how to best use your talents to achieve your goals.

    Also, you already expressed your belief in the slogan, "you can't polish a turd." So you are no longer qualified to label anything else a "dippy slogan" lol

    Here's a spoiler for you: the slogan regarding a person being able to "be anything they want" has nothing to do with doing everything themselves. Sometimes if you want to be something that you have zero Talent nor Skill in achieving, then the best thing to do is to surround yourself with those who can help you achieve your goals. In fact, some people are born with a special ability to attract  others. And that is how they achieve their goals. So it seems you don't really understand the slogan, you're just more concerned with making excuses for people who do not strive to actually work hard.
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane

  • cybernettrcybernettr Posts: 627
    Neo
    Zenbane said:

    If your argument is that each person is born predestined to only excel at certain things, then that is the exact opposite of potential. Anyone can achieve anything through hard work. 
     So how are you enjoying your billionaire's lifestyle LOL? 

     Seriously, I do believe in "predestination." That is, I believe in "genetic predestination." Your genetic potential for certain things, such as your gender, propensity to certain diseases, etc., is determined at conception.  It's folly and delusion to believe that certain things can be changed after the fact.  Accepting your genetic potential is one key to avoiding frustration in life, as well in channeling your energies towards those areas in which you have the most potential for success.  Accepting and recognizing your inborn potential is actually empowering rather than disempowering, as it frees you to focus on your strengths instead of berating yourself for your weaknesses. 
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 8,040 Power Poster
    edited July 17
    cybernettr said:
     So how are you enjoying your billionaire's lifestyle LOL? 

    Why stop at billions and not trillions?  :p

    If any one of us here truly strived to be a billionaire and work hard at it, then we could very much achieve it. That goes for both me and you. 

    Genetic predisposition is only one tool in a very large tool box. It is "hard work" that makes the difference and shapes the outcome.

    Turning your weaknesses into strengths is far more empowering than settling for whatever you believe your natural-born talent is. And realizing that your potential extends beyond genetics is also more empowering than pigeon holding yourself.
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane

  • cybernettrcybernettr Posts: 627
    Neo
    Oh, come on! Surely you don't believe that! Anyone can become a billionaire if only they try hard enough? So why aren't there more billionaires out there? Why aren't YOU a billionaire? And don't tell me that you simply haven't tried hard enough!

     Genetic predisposition isn't one tool in the toolbox. It's the tool box itself. Hell, its the whole effing workshop!  :D
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 8,040 Power Poster
    edited July 17
    dp
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane

  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 8,040 Power Poster
    edited July 17
    Oh, come on! Surely you don't believe that! Anyone can become a billionaire if only they try hard enough? So why aren't there more billionaires out there? Why aren't YOU a billionaire? And don't tell me that you simply haven't tried hard enough!
    I have definitely not tried hard enough to become a billionaire. That's not even a goal on my To Do list. Have you tried? What exactly have you tried to do to become a billionaire?

    Although I'm not sure why you are so obsessed with the idea of becoming a "billionaire," that's just a red herring to this discussion.

    And again, why not trillionaires? There are trillionares in the world:
    https://www.google.com/#q=trillionaires+list

    While you're avoiding answering the trillionare question, I'll pose another question that you can pretend you can't see: are you saying that hard work can't overcome genetic limitations?

    Genetic predisposition isn't one tool in the toolbox. It's the tool box itself. Hell, its the whole effing workshop!  :D
    The person is the tool box, and the tools inside are what the person uses to accomplish goals. You are getting lost in the analogy :D

    We had the words from Michael Jordan which contradict your stance in this discussion. Here's another great quote from a high achiever that also contradicts your entire position:


    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane

  • kzintzikzintzi Posts: 763 Poster of the Week
    I don't think I have the energy or drive for ANYTHING that much that I could become a billionaire.. 
    Though you are more than slightly incoherent, I agree with you Madam,
    a plum is a terrible thing to do to a nostril.
  • cybernettrcybernettr Posts: 627
    Neo
    Geez Zenbane, sometimes you argue just for the sake of it. Okay, let me try this: what about those people in the inner cities? Would you say they are simply not trying hard enough? Or are there forces blocking them beyond their control? Be careful with your answer!
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 8,040 Power Poster
    edited July 17

    Geez Zenbane, sometimes you argue just for the sake of it.
    The exact same thing is moreso true in your case. You don't even address the arguments presented against you. And you avoid every question asked.

    Okay, let me try this: what about those people in the inner cities?
    You keep repeating yourself; that's the exact same argument as when you said:
    in a thread on Oculus Medium, you yourself said you didn't use it because you were "not an artist."

    I already gave the counter-argument:
    We all have a choice, which is the point. Just because you face someone with natural talent(s) doesn't mean hard work can't overcome. But you have to make that choice.


    So then, because all you want to do is argue for the sake of arguing, you simply repeat the same rationale...

    cybernettr said: You must be a blast in Rock Band VR!
    Yes, we can all be a blast in Rock Band VR if we choose. Hard work is the key, but we have to make the choice.

     
    cybernettr
    said: So how are you enjoying your billionaire's lifestyle LOL?
    Yes, we can all be a billionaire's if we choose. Hard work is the key, but we have to make the choice.


    cybernettr said: So why aren't there more billionaires out there?
    We can all be a billionaire's if we choose. Hard work is the key, but we have to make the choice.


    cybernettr said:  what about those people in the inner cities?
    People in the inner cities can accomplish any goal that they choose. Hard work is the key, but we have to make the choice.

    Another question for Cybernettr to avoid:
    What inner city job promises a billionaire's salary? :D
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane

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