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The Pimax 8K MEGA Thread - Surveys Released

Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 2,630 Valuable Player
edited November 14 in General
I've been on the fence about this and have some reservations about build quality and performance under heavy load, but for me the positives outweigh the negatives and I guess many others feel the same way. Now I never backed the Rift during its Kickstarter campaign (unfortunately) but I assume the feeling is similar where you're helping to forge the future of VR in some way, or at least like to think so. I consider myself an enthusiast and not the majority, therefore what's another £600 to experience the latest  in VR. Sadly, having Samsung not release the Odyssey here in the UK left me with an itchy wallet finger, a void that needed filling and with GO not releasing until next year either I thought the Pimax 8K will scratch the itch and might just prove to be pretty good too. I'm excited for it.

There is always going to be skepticism and no doubt a number of people will suggest I am backing a paperweight but, that's ok it's fully understandable to have those feelings and that prediction is always a possibility. But... if someone doesn't take the risk and we all play it safe, how can VR move forwards - I guess we've already taken risks with past VR investments in some way or another including with the Rift. I've never claimed any loyalty to anyone having owned The Gear VR (still have that knocking around somewhere) DK2, Vive, Rift, PSVR and come next year Pimax will be added to the list. However, I am interested like many of you agreed in the poll we did here a while back that certain things were important to improve on what we have now and it seems the Pimax 8K is offering some of those things on paper. 

I think once you can look past the silly marketing name (8K) and the hammerhead shark design and focus on what's inside, this HMD offers something many claimed they would like in the past but are not prepared to trust Pimax to deliver. I think a number of people would rather wait for a more established company (like Oculus) to offer a similar experience further down the line. All very understandable. But I am impatient, and whilst I use my Rift quite often I want more of what VR can offer sooner rather than later. 

So, (and the main reason for this post) is come Feb 2018 I will gladly post impressions and comparisons without hyperbole and answer questions any of you might have. That said, I expect many others at the time will post their impressions also so there should be plenty of opinions going around from various sources.


System Specs: GTX 1080 ti , i7 4790K CPU, 16 GB RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
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Comments

  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 2,369 Valuable Player
    Will be interested to see what you think about it. I don't think you've taken too much of a risk because they delivered on their first Kickstarter with their first generation headset.

    I'm going to wait and see what Oculus come up with in 2019/2020 before I get my second generation headset I think, and I might even wait a year after it's released to take advantage of any inevitable price cuts.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • kojackkojack Posts: 3,659 Volunteer Moderator
    snowdog said:
    Will be interested to see what you think about it. I don't think you've taken too much of a risk because they delivered on their first Kickstarter with their first generation headset.
    The Pimax 4K wasn't crowd funded.
    I've already lost over $1000au on companies that already had existing products launched but then failed to deliver on their kickstarter.

    Oddly enough, one company I really didn't trust was Noitom with their Perception Neuron mocap suit, but it was the only mocap suit kickstarter that actually ended up delivering (and my work bought one, while I'm still waiting for my 3+ years overdue PrioVR), so maybe I just suck at judging kickstarters.

    The Pimax 8K X is no longer available for backing, they are only making 250 of them (for the kickstarter) and all slots are sold out.

    I await your review. :)
    (I have a partial interest in getting one, but I don't trust $1284au on a kickstarter like this, I want to see it released first)


    (If Pimax make a C++ sdk and give me an 8K X early, I know how to support wide fov 3d properly in code. Hint hint.)

  • dburnedburne Posts: 784
    3Jane
    edited October 24
    I look forward to seeing the specs of the machine than can run games in the 8K X at acceptable frame rates.



    Don

    EVGA X-79 Dark MB|I7 4820K@4.50 GHz|EVGA 1080Ti FTW3 Elite|16GB Corsair Platinum 2133MHz| TM Warthog + 7.5cm Ext| MFG Crosswind Pedals| Rift CV1|Windows 10 64 bit 
  • MorgrumMorgrum Posts: 639 Poster of the Week
    Good luck!
    WAAAGH!
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 2,630 Valuable Player
    I did back the Auravisor (my first and only Kickstarter until now) and whilst it delivered when promised, the actual device was a stinking pile of poo.  Creators are always going to have a massive positive outlook on their products, however, there are a number of non affiliates  speaking highly (of course with some reservations) which is allaying some fears one might have. I don't think there were any trustworthy sources of the Auravisor performance before it launched or during the campaign so I've learnt to take the hype with a grain of salt.  For anyone on the fence. I shall with honor report back if there are any issues especially with delivery, build quality and if there is any technical/hardware problem how well their customer service handles it.


    System Specs: GTX 1080 ti , i7 4790K CPU, 16 GB RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
  • kojackkojack Posts: 3,659 Volunteer Moderator
    edited October 24
    dburne said:
    I look forward to seeing the specs of the machine than can run games in the 8K X at acceptable frame rates.

    Running the CV1 at pixel density of 2.0 is already higher pixel count than the Pimax 8K X. :)

    Pimax 8K X - 3840x2160x2 = 16.5MP.
    CV1 at 2.0 - 2664x3172x2 = 16.9MP.

  • Star-lizardStar-lizard Posts: 140
    Art3mis
    Well good luck, it's good to have competition and innovation else there is no reason for other companies to develop better product and at a faster pace
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 2,369 Valuable Player
    Well good luck, it's good to have competition and innovation else there is no reason for other companies to develop better product and at a faster pace

    Yup, I had been convinced for quite some time that both HTC and Oculus would go for 2 x 2K screens for their second generation headsets but we MIGHT be looking at 2 x 4K instead now. It all depends on the foveated rendering situation when they launch in 2019/2020 though.

    Oculus are also doing some interesting work on their depth of field stuff too which should give a decent increase in presence.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • SiilkSiilk Posts: 107
    Art3mis
    From my experience with kickstarter, it's usually pointless to back an already overfunded project. Logic is simple: project already has more than enough money to be completed so at this point you are effectively pre-ordering a product which is technically not guaranteed to be delivered. I apply that to any project I think of backing so unless there's a very appealing stretch goal which seems to be within reach, I just wait for the release, check reviews and then make the buy/ignore decision. I have nothing particular against pimax BTW, I simply think there's no logical reason to back any project in a situation of >100% funding(1000% funding in pimax's case).

    With that said, I hope pimax guys will succeed and you'll get a good headset out of this. We need more VR hardware out there to drive the competition and push RnD forward. Looking forward to reading your hands-on review. ;)

  • Atmos73Atmos73 Posts: 2,045
    Project 2501
    kojack said:
    dburne said:
    I look forward to seeing the specs of the machine than can run games in the 8K X at acceptable frame rates.

    Running the CV1 at pixel density of 2.0 is already higher pixel count than the Pimax 8K X. :)

    Pimax 8K X - 3840x2160x2 = 16.5MP.
    CV1 at 2.0 - 2664x3172x2 = 16.9MP.

    The Pimax 8k X calculation seems good but how do you get 16.9MP for CV1? Doesn’t CV1 have 1080x1200x2 @ 2.0? Comes out at 5.18 not 16.9MP???
  • kojackkojack Posts: 3,659 Volunteer Moderator
    edited October 25
    The rift has a native resolution of 2160x1200 (or 1080x1200x2, both have the same pixel count).

    Pixel density isn't a direct multiple of this. 1.0 doesn't mean 2160x1200 and 2.0 doesn't mean 4320x2400.
    Pixel density is the desired ratio of texels to pixels in the centre of each eye after the post processing distortion phase. Due to the barrel distortion done in the distortion phase, you need to have a higher resolution (centre pixels are bulged larger than outer pixels).

    To achieve 1:1 ratio of rendered texels to panel pixels (this is pixel density 1.0), you need to render at 1.23 times the native res. (DK2 lenses needed 1.5 times, DK1 was around 1.7 I think)
    So setting the density to 1.0 means your game is really rendering at 2664x1586 (the panel is of course still 2160x1200).
    Pixel density 2.0 means two full texels (per axis) per panel pixel in the centre of your eye, which means the game is rendering at 5328x3172.  Get out your calculator and you'll see that 5328x3172 is 16,900,416.

    So when it comes to performance, the Pimax 8K X sounds like it will require extreme hardware. But anybody who can run a rift game at density 2.0 is already doing a bigger GPU hit.

    Potential vertex pipeline hit due to wide fov, however, is a discussion for another time (I'm at work).

  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 8,025 Power Poster
    edited October 25
    But... if someone doesn't take the risk and we all play it safe, how can VR move forwards

    Innovation has occurred since the dawn of man... without Kickstarter being around. In fact, Kickstarter only works because someone invented the Internet. And it didn't take a Kickstarter campaign to do it: all that was required was hard work and dedication.

    I wish you the best with your investment; but to me the best way to take risk is to be part of the innovation directly -  behind-the-scenes putting in blood, sweat, and tears. Kickstarter feels far more about a marketing campaign than true sacrifice. Sending a check isn't taking a risk. Much like paying a Church won't guarantee a place in Heaven.
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane

  • WmackyWmacky Posts: 113
    Hiro Protagonist
    Can the controllers, and trackers be bought separately so that less initial risk is taken if nothing ships? Did you get the full package?
  • kzintzikzintzi Posts: 763 Poster of the Week
    snowdog said:
    Will be interested to see what you think about it. I don't think you've taken too much of a risk because they delivered on their first Kickstarter with their first generation headset.

    I'm going to wait and see what Oculus come up with in 2019/2020 before I get my second generation headset I think, and I might even wait a year after it's released to take advantage of any inevitable price cuts.
    going to do likewise - the wife is already looking at me sideways coz of what the Rift cost me when I was bleeding edge :smiley:
    Though you are more than slightly incoherent, I agree with you Madam,
    a plum is a terrible thing to do to a nostril.
  • Protocol7Protocol7 Posts: 243
    Nexus 6
    I am glad there are impatient people like you! Eagerly awaiting your review.

    Tom's Hardware got to use a prototype of the so-called 8K, they seem reasonably pleased with what they saw. Supposedly there was no perceptible SDE and no weird FOV stretching, the Pimax rep claimed SteamVR was doing the FOV natively and they mentioned a new improved prototype will be at New York VR Expo.
    http://www.tomshardware.com/news/pimax-8k-vr-headset-trial,35745.html

    If it's true then it seems Pimax is actually fixing the problems with their design.
  • kojackkojack Posts: 3,659 Volunteer Moderator
    They might be using an updated demo. Until recently, OpenVR didn't support eyes that aren't aiming the same direction. With standard rendering, it's impossible to have 200 degrees with directly forward facing eyes, because one side clipping plane would be going forwards and one would be going backwards. You need the eyes to aim outwards to cover that fov. OpenVR had no support for that, and no OpenVR games would be able to do it (since OpenVR never gave them per eye orientation). It's now added, but games need to be updated to get that data.

    Half assing early demos by using stretched OpenVR was a really bad idea. They should have had custom demos from the beginning that did things correctly.

    Hehe, there was another chinese VR headset that was using a demo I wrote as part of their campaign. They offered me a free headset, but I didn't take them up on it. I wonder what ever happened to them? I can't even remember it's name.

  • kojackkojack Posts: 3,659 Volunteer Moderator
    Kind of. :)

    The pimax screens aren't coplanar, they are angled. But OpenVR assumed all screens (and therefore the projection onto them) were coplanar. So they didn't tell the game which direction a camera should be aimed to match each screen, it would just be the orientation of the whole headset.
    But they added IVRServerDriverHost::TrackedDeviceDisplayTransformUpdated which gives the full transform of each eye. This lets you do either:
    - support pimax correctly
    - make the world's first chameleon simulator

  • SiilkSiilk Posts: 107
    Art3mis
    edited October 25
    kojack said:
    - make the world's first chameleon simulator

    Ok, now I'm interested.
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 2,630 Valuable Player
    edited October 25
    @Zenbaneator. Of course I agree there are people innovating behind the scenes without  investment or need for public funding. But I think with the rise of things like Kickstarter it provides a much greater incentive to see things through especially for smaller companies or individuals. It can remove the need to then pitch an idea to another company/bank to get funding. It offers some commitment from the general public that the ideas being worked on have potential to be a tangible product. It perhaps strokes the ego a little of those creating giving them a greater sense of accomplishment for their efforts before releasing a product.  I think this is a good thing even if the conduit is laced in potential for disaster (for those funding).

    As we all know though and through personal experience or otherwise things can go sour so it's not all smelling of roses. Events can turn out to be quite a nasty process whether that's creators taking the money and spending it all on cocaine and hookers. Or failing to deliver the product on time and when it does arrive is not as described or is simply shit!

    That said, I believe in this instance Pimax are likely using Kickstarter as a marketing tool more than an actual need (someone mentioned a pre-order scheme which sounds about right). I mean, look at their measly $200,000 initial funding goal. I believe that decision was purely tactical especially when compared to their lofty stretch goal targets figures. 

    I fully understand the skepticism towards Pimax and Kickstarter, but where's the fun if there is no risk!  And if those words do come back to haunt me, then so be it.  :'(

    And that potato gif.  Where on earth do you dig up such things? (not forgetting the delightful pencil face). Forget Masters of the Universe, Masters of the Internet is more fitting if we're calling a spade a spade.


    System Specs: GTX 1080 ti , i7 4790K CPU, 16 GB RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
  • Atmos73Atmos73 Posts: 2,045
    Project 2501
    kojack said:
    The rift has a native resolution of 2160x1200 (or 1080x1200x2, both have the same pixel count).

    Pixel density isn't a direct multiple of this. 1.0 doesn't mean 2160x1200 and 2.0 doesn't mean 4320x2400.
    Pixel density is the desired ratio of texels to pixels in the centre of each eye after the post processing distortion phase. Due to the barrel distortion done in the distortion phase, you need to have a higher resolution (centre pixels are bulged larger than outer pixels).

    To achieve 1:1 ratio of rendered texels to panel pixels (this is pixel density 1.0), you need to render at 1.23 times the native res. (DK2 lenses needed 1.5 times, DK1 was around 1.7 I think)
    So setting the density to 1.0 means your game is really rendering at 2664x1586 (the panel is of course still 2160x1200).
    Pixel density 2.0 means two full texels (per axis) per panel pixel in the centre of your eye, which means the game is rendering at 5328x3172.  Get out your calculator and you'll see that 5328x3172 is 16,900,416.

    So when it comes to performance, the Pimax 8K X sounds like it will require extreme hardware. But anybody who can run a rift game at density 2.0 is already doing a bigger GPU hit.

    Potential vertex pipeline hit due to wide fov, however, is a discussion for another time (I'm at work).

    How come you didnt take barrel distortion in to account when calculating the 8k pixels to get 16MP? Surely the Pimax has all the same issues if not more to get 200 FOV.
  • kojackkojack Posts: 3,659 Volunteer Moderator
    I guess you need to hope that they will sell another $800,000 in 9 days otherwise you won't get eye tracking. :)

    (I never liked the idea of stretch goals for hardware projects. It only makes sense with software)
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 8,025 Power Poster
    edited October 25
    Shadowmask72 said:

    I fully understand the skepticism towards Pimax and Kickstarter, but where's the fun if there is no risk!  And if those words do come back to haunt me, then so be it.

    I see it as more of a Casino style gamble than the type of Risk that comes with being truly dedicated to a business initiative. You take a monetary gamble in order to help entrepreneurs like the Pimax staff avoid real Risk. For example...

    Once upon a time the "risk" that entrepreneurs took involved committing years of hard work and dedication towards a dream that may or may not yield any profits. It was risky because after years of hard work the end result may be either failure or success. And naturally, success in industry is very closely tied to financial gains.

    Today we have "crowd funding" which attempts to avoid that risk. Kickstarter lets people simply market all the hard work that they "plan to do." Kickstarter lets people create a infomercial video that showcases how things could be in the future if only people will give them money now. In this way... people get to skip the hard work and get the money first; Risk Avoidance is achieved.

    Maybe I'm a bit too old-fashioned, but crowd funding campaigns seem to avoid true risk; it puts the beans above the frank, na' mean?

    I still think it's cool that you took the financial gamble, buddy! But you said it yourself in your first post: you had the extra funds and no other HMD is coming down the pipe soon. So you basically took the gamble with some throw-away funds. That's always fun! 
    :)
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane

  • Atmos73Atmos73 Posts: 2,045
    Project 2501
    edited October 25
    Looks like the Pimax success has spurred Acer into investing 5 million into StarVR which has the same form factor as the Pimax.

    https://www.roadtovr.com/acer-becomes-majority-shareholder-starvr-5m-capital-injection/

    Lets hope StarVR converts to Lighthouse tracking too. 
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 8,025 Power Poster
    edited October 25

    I'm not sure how Pimax crowd funding is related to the Acer/StarVR connection at all. Both Acer and StarVR had a joint venture since last year, but it was more equal in terms of shares. Acer has simply increased their investment and taken more control of StarVR's IP. Acer increased their investment to 5 million on top of what they were already investing.

    And it looks like Acer plans to use the StarVR HMD for more commercial use:
    Our games and related premium VR experiences will primarily use the StarVR headset for location-based VR centers

    http://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/news/acer-invests-5-million-into-starbreeze-vr-headset-w510009


    I don't see what any of this has to do with Pimax and crowd funding directly.
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane

  • ThmoasThmoas Posts: 193
    Art3mis
    I actually would really like a Chamelon simulator. I wonder how my brain will adapt to this and whether after some practice I would actually see a usable huge 2D FOV.
  • Atmos73Atmos73 Posts: 2,045
    Project 2501
    Now Acer have control of StarVR they’ll be in a position to take the company in a new direction. With Pimax generating so much interest there’s nothing to stop Acer launching a StarVR headset on PC to rival Pimax.
  • kojackkojack Posts: 3,659 Volunteer Moderator
    StarVR has been in the works since at least august 2013 (back then it was called Infiniteye, before Starbreeze bought it)
  • Steve30xSteve30x Posts: 4
    NerveGear
    kojack said:
    Running the CV1 at pixel density of 2.0 is already higher pixel count than the Pimax 8K X.

    Pimax 8K X - 3840x2160x2 = 16.5MP.
    CV1 at 2.0 - 2664x3172x2 = 16.9MP.

    The screen door effect will still be there with the CV1 though. With the PiMax 8K the screen door effect will be almost completely gone.
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 2,630 Valuable Player
    Funny you mention Casino gamble check this out. Odds stacked well in favour of the house and then some.



    Anyhow Pimax has just released a V3 video.






    System Specs: GTX 1080 ti , i7 4790K CPU, 16 GB RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
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