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Vuze 3D 360 vr camera

MaacoMaaco Posts: 4
NerveGear
The Vuze vr camera got my attention and I even considered buying one but... then I downloaded some (4K) demo movies from their site and watched them with my Rift  using Virtual Desktop( Steam) and was really very disappointed by the poor  image quality! I was surprised by this after reading so many positive reviews about this camera on the internet. So my questions are if there are otters that also think the image quality is bad, or maybe if my expectations might have been too high or if the combination with the Rift isn’t the best? 

Thanks,
Maaco

Comments

  • MaacoMaaco Posts: 4
    NerveGear
    edited December 2017
    Ok...obviously this isn’t the right place to discuss 360 3D cameras ;-) It’s probably way to early for vr video anyway as you need to pay around 900 Euros for a cam with crappy image quality.
  • zbosonzboson Posts: 994 Poster of the Week
    I wish there were more discussion about 360 VR cameras.

    I think the problem is that 360 is a misnomer because it only describes an angle measured in a plane. What really should be described is solid angles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steradian

    In terms of steradiants it would be 4pi over the full sphere. Imagine your screen covered 120 degrees horizontal and 120 degrees vertical. That's 1/3 of the sphere in each direction or just 1/6 of steradian of the total sphere.  But if you spread the full 4K on the sphere then in the region that you view the resolution is about 1/6 of that or about 700x700.

    I am no expert I'm just making a guess here. But I think you need far more resolution to get hi resolution over the full sphere. Maybe something like 24k. That might be a reason that Google uses 17 cameras in their Yi Halo

    https://www.yitechnology.com/yi-halo-vr-camera
    https://vr.google.com/jump/
  • nosys70nosys70 Posts: 466
    Art3mis
    edited December 2017
    since there is no player or hardware to play high quality 360 videos, this is not really a problem.
    with the new Pimax 8k we will eventually get a tool that give credit to highres video, but it is still a green banana.
    if you want quality, the best choice is the Insta360 pro 8k, that gives you the best for the less money.
    if you want to go cheap and easy, the ricoh theta V is a great product.



  • Hiro_Protag0nistHiro_Protag0nist Posts: 4,886 Valuable Player
    nosys70 said:
    since there is no player or hardware to play high quality 360 videos, this is not really a problem.
    with the new Pimax 8k we will eventually get a tool that give credit to highres video, but it is still a green banana.
    if you want quality, the best choice is the Insta360 pro 8k, that gives you the best for the less money.
    if you want to go cheap and easy, the ricoh theta V is a great product.




    I second that.  Looks amazing and a "reasonable" price.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,402 Volunteer Moderator

    If the Pimax 8K arrives, you may be a little disappointed in its detail rendering if you're expecting a big leap. It's upscaling 4K and spreading that over 120 deg so pixels per degree, although higher, won't be stellar.


    I'm really interested in getting a 360 camera but am holding out for at least an 8K stereoscopic camera that's well under £1000. The current contender is the Insta360 Pro which is £3,000.


    Considering the Ozo was $45,000, we seem to be getting there, maybe a couple more years.

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  • RoasterRoaster Posts: 1,053
    3Jane
    Possible contender at $1500 ...

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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,402 Volunteer Moderator
    edited December 2017
    That look interesting @Roaster, I hadn't heard of that one. 3 of those would give a 12K 360 video. Only problem is the separate cameras, so there'd be a little extra hassle getting files together & stitched. The price is good for the specs though.
    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v1903 (18363.592)
  • nosys70nosys70 Posts: 466
    Art3mis

    everything that cannot spit a 360 image is a PITA to say the less.

    stitching is part of the past, even for multiple camera devices.

    Ricoh was one to offer a simple device giving quality 360 pictures and video.

    if you have been through stitching multiple camera videos and then used a one shot camera, you would understand what i mean.



  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,782 Valuable Player
    Maaco said:
    The Vuze vr camera got my attention and I even considered buying one but... then I downloaded some (4K) demo movies from their site and watched them with my Rift  using Virtual Desktop( Steam) and was really very disappointed by the poor  image quality! I was surprised by this after reading so many positive reviews about this camera on the internet. So my questions are if there are otters that also think the image quality is bad, or maybe if my expectations might have been too high or if the combination with the Rift isn’t the best? 


    Have you tried watching it in GearVR? The Mobile VR technology showcases 360 video better than the Rift and Vive currently. I own the 360Fly 4K, and it looks much better on my Cardboard VR than in my Rift. It's just the nature of these screens currently.
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  • RoasterRoaster Posts: 1,053
    3Jane
    nosys70 said:

    everything that cannot spit a 360 image is a PITA to say the less.

    stitching is part of the past, even for multiple camera devices.

    Ricoh was one to offer a simple device giving quality 360 pictures and video.

    if you have been through stitching multiple camera videos and then used a one shot camera, you would understand what i mean.



    Being stereo image is important to me, so 2d cams aren't in the running. One of my pet peeves about the 360 fad.
    VR is 3D. imo
    i7-5820K @ 4.2Ghz, water cooled, Asus X99-Pro USB 3.1, 48 Gb DDR4 2400, Samsung 950 pro M.2 SSD, GTX 980 Ti SC, 750w psu
  • Log_a_FrogLog_a_Frog Posts: 1,045
    Trinity
    Cool
  • zbosonzboson Posts: 994 Poster of the Week
    edited December 2017
    Zenbane said:
    Have you tried watching it in GearVR? The Mobile VR technology showcases 360 video better than the Rift and Vive currently. I own the 360Fly 4K, and it looks much better on my Cardboard VR than in my Rift. It's just the nature of these screens currently.
    Why do you think this is? "It's just the nature of these screens currently." does not explain why. The S8 has a higher resolution than the Rift so in a GearVR or even Google Cardboard it might not be surprising that it looks better.
  • nosys70nosys70 Posts: 466
    Art3mis
    edited December 2017
    "Being stereo image is important to me, so 2d cams aren't in the running. One of my pet peeves about the 360 fad.
    VR is 3D. imo"
    You are right but currently, there is only very expensives cameras able to do 360 3D movies, the Insta360 pro 8k being the cheapest.
    And stereoscopic in 360 movies is still not perfect. Add to this that stereo effect disappear for subject being far from camera (20m  and more), the use of stereoscopic in 360 is pretty limited.
    good looking picture is not related only to resolution. The pixel technology of oculus is a bad choice (in fact it is not a choice, it is a consequence of choosing samsung screens that were not made to be viewed so close), so other screens using different pixel arrangement could give a better picture at same or lower resolution.
    for example you can list:
    - sub pixel (RGB) arrangement.
    - pixel spacing (screendoor effect)
    - pixel technology (active, passive)
    - contrast and luminosity.

    A good things would be to build screens like some camera sensor are build, with a lens on top of pixel.
    since this is a common technology used at smaller scale for cameras than the one required for screen, it should be easy to implement. (even punched into thin layer of acrylic glass or polycarbonate plastic)
    Image result for sensor microlens over pixel
    this would reduce the black part responsible for screendoor effect and help to focus light to the eye (increased brightness)
    another way is to use apple Retina-like technology by increasing harware pixel count, while still keeping software resolution at a reasonable amount. this is what Pimax is proposing and until we have GPU able to move tons of pixels, this seems to be an interesting interim solution.
    The problem is small pixel is giving less light while increasing geometry complexity.
    I think the best will be to mix both technology Retina-like and pixel lense.

    Image result for pixel arrangement






     


  • RoasterRoaster Posts: 1,053
    3Jane
    nosys70 said:
    "Being stereo image is important to me, so 2d cams aren't in the running. One of my pet peeves about the 360 fad.
    VR is 3D. imo"
    You are right but currently, there is only very expensives cameras able to do 360 3D movies, the Insta360 pro 8k being the cheapest.
    And stereoscopic in 360 movies is still not perfect.






     


    Roger that. I'm hoping the Lucid x3 rig can do a passable job, but it'll be a while before I can afford one.
    There is a good 360 3D vid in Jaunt, called Walking with Penguins. No idea what camera they used, probably expensive because it's above average.
    I want the Lucid 360 rig in an underwater case to dip on a tether at the reef.
    i7-5820K @ 4.2Ghz, water cooled, Asus X99-Pro USB 3.1, 48 Gb DDR4 2400, Samsung 950 pro M.2 SSD, GTX 980 Ti SC, 750w psu
  • nosys70nosys70 Posts: 466
    Art3mis
    edited December 2017
    currently an easy way to go 360 underwater is the Ricoh Theta v that comes with a scuba case available for cheap.



  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,402 Volunteer Moderator
    That look interesting @Roaster, I hadn't heard of that one. 3 of those would give a 12K 360 video. Only problem is the separate cameras, so there'd be a little extra hassle getting files together & stitched. The price is good for the specs though.

    I'm just going to correct myself on the resolution of those 3 LucidCams. Each of the 3 cameras gives 4K and 180 deg view, so 3 cameras are going to have a 30% overlap before stitching. The resulting 360 vid would be in the region of 8K, which is equivalent to the Insta360 Pro. Still less than half the price though.

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  • zbosonzboson Posts: 994 Poster of the Week
    Google has created a VR180 standard
    https://vr.google.com/vr180/

    That's perhaps more useful for consumers anyway. A single LucidCam is probably good enough. It's not going to look like 4K in the region you view because the 4K is spread out over the whole hemisphere but it will still be good enough I think.

    I'm not sure the resolution of LucidCam or most of these cameras is linear with the angle. I mean the resolution could depend on the angle. Angles that are more oblique to the center of the camera may get less resolution. Some kind of cos(theta) effect. This is just a guess.
  • zbosonzboson Posts: 994 Poster of the Week
    edited December 2017
    @nosys70 those are very interesting points about sub pixel arrangement. Is there a better arrangement for VR than what is used by cell phones?  Doesn't the Rift and GearVR use the same sub pixel arrangement?  If so then that does not explain why some people claim 360 looks better on GearVR.

    It's amazing how many people don't realize that 3 fixed colors cannot produce all the colors that the human eye can see.



    The visible color gamut cannot be covered by a triangle with three real colors (wavelengths). I have heard talk about adding more that 3 colors to the display (subpixel color arrangement) but I'm not aware of hardware that does this. There has been a lot of progress in the light intensity range (HDR) but not the broadening of the color gamut beyond using three colors. I wonder why this has not happened yet.
  • nosys70nosys70 Posts: 466
    Art3mis
    edited December 2017
    yes it is obvious that the only real way to produce all the color is to use different wavelenght than RGB.
    But if we go for the easy and cheap , RGB is ok. after all we just want to look at pictures, not make a spectro analysis.
    in stage lights, you often see led projectors that have 4 or 5 colors RGB +W+other (usually yellow to get better gold tones)
    what is needed is RGB colors with wide spectrum (for example red going from near infrared to bright red).
    Unfortunately the more we go, the more the components we use are "digital" (vs "analog") so they get more precise.
    you have to remember that most led light is taken from UV light that is used to excite phosphor, that gives a visible color (with filter or none).
    good spectrum is obtained by using white laser.
    about micro lense array
    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep15861

  • MaacoMaaco Posts: 4
    NerveGear
    Thanks all for sharing your thoughts & suggestions on this matter! For me personality it’s a bit too early as this technology doesn’t seem to have reached its potential yet (except for the cameras in the higher price range) Haven’t tried to view the Vuze cam movies with the GearVR yet but I will give that a trie to see if it makes a difference.
  • zbosonzboson Posts: 994 Poster of the Week
    Maaco said:
    Thanks all for sharing your thoughts & suggestions on this matter! For me personality it’s a bit too early as this technology doesn’t seem to have reached its potential yet (except for the cameras in the higher price range) Haven’t tried to view the Vuze cam movies with the GearVR yet but I will give that a trie to see if it makes a difference.
    Then try VR180. That's one of the reason google is pushing it. A 4K 180 camera should be as good as a 8K 360 camera.
  • zbosonzboson Posts: 994 Poster of the Week
    Here is a useful link for 360 cameras
    http://360rumors.com/
  • kickassretardkickassretard Posts: 26
    Brain Burst

    Came across this video that apparently showcases the youtube VR180 spec:

    So far two cameras have been announced for google VR180 and they are supposedly going to be in the 300$ price range.

    If they can really achieve the quality in the video and be viewed in Oculus Go, I think it would be quite a good combo. But I think it could be quite likely that it wont be easy to integrate Oculus Go into the system, if you consider that neither the Rift or the Gear VR store currently have an official App for watching youtube 360° videos.

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