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Rift Now Ahead Of Vive In Steam Survey

snowdogsnowdog Posts: 5,201 Power Poster
Am surprised that nobody has posted this or mentioned it tbh.

More troubles for HTC, and if the Vive Pro is too expensive they won't sell too many of those to consumers either.

Perhaps they should have cut the price of the Vive to match the Rift, delayed launching the Vive Pro until next year and upped the resolution from 1.5K to 2K..?

Details here:

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

WVR: 5.38%
Vive: 45.38%
Rift: 47.31%
DK2: 1.95%
DK1: 0% (why include that in the figures? lol)

And things are going to get worse for HTC when Oculus cut the price of the Rift again later this year. My money would be on either another Summer Of Rift permanent cut to $299/£299 or $349/£349 and if they don't cut the price this Summer they'll certainly do that before Christmas.

Personally I'm putting this marketshare drop to several factors:

1) HTC released the damn thing way too early. It was basically a late prototype released as a consumer version, their Crescent Bay equivalent.

2) The licencing of Valve's technology is too expensive which is making it difficult for them to drop their price apart from just ONE price cut from $799 to $599 in two years. The Vive is just too expensive, HTC have done the eact same thing with their phones and look to be doing the same thing with the Vive Pro.

3) Software. They're far behind in the software stakes, and Valve must bear a large part of the responsibility here too. The Lab was great, but it was basically a collection of good tech demos. And since the Vive launched, with the exception of Fallout 4 VR, the bundled software has been pretty poor compared to the ridiculous amount of VERY high quality free software with the Rift.

4) Competition from the WVR headsets at a MUCH cheaper price.

I'm sorry to say that it's looking unlikely, imo, that HTC will be able to keep their doors open and keep their lights on during the next 2 years which is disappointing because a) We don't want to lose a major VR player in the game and b) I've always really liked their phones. :(

Now play nice everybody and try your best not to get banned or this thread locked, and feel free to go off topic...talk of food origins, nationality and anything else that's off topic that isn't offensive is very welcome here lololol :D :D :D
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Comments

  • MradrMradr Posts: 2,683 Valuable Player
    edited March 3
    2) I have to say that isn't the case. We see a number of 3rd party HMDs and other objects using light house access no problem and more and more going for that. I would bet Oculus would be way cheaper and that others would go for Oculus technology instead if that was the case. I think the problem here is just the hardware cost just over all. Anything coming out using the lighthouse tech on the other hand comes with a higher price point and that is the split where the cost is coming in from. Otherwise, if you have to pay a high cost to use that tech - then you could just say you split that cost over time - but in this case - because the hardware is high then that is what you seeing and not licensing in general.

    The major killer isn't any of that really - it all comes down to cost..

    Vive doesn't own a store. I know soo many people at the start really kick Oculus for doing it - but one of the benefits is that you can sell the hardware for cheaper while taking the risk of just having to sell them more software to cover the cost of lowering the unit/point of sell unit instead. This benefits the customer by allowing them access to the thing they want for way cheaper and helps the business by allowing more people to buy more software. It's the chicken in the egg and Oculus had to do it - Vive on the other hand doesn't control crap and as a result (with any HMD going forward here as well) will have to face that they are fuck they don't have any real way to offer a deal unless they work with their software reseller to lower their hardware cost.

    The Lab was a steam release and not a Vive thing really. Games made by steam are coming out less and less and they are not really backing real high quality games/software like Oculus is doing. Going back to the whole Vive doesn't own a store comment - Vive really doesn't gain anything really from putting money back into Steam because Steam isn't going to give them any money back or high enough shares of that money back for Vive/HTC in this case to make their money back from the investment over time. Unless Steam is willing to take a hit and or give all the money they made off VR sells... then it was a failing design and something a lot of us said at the start.

    Any HMD going forward here will have to live off tight marjen sells per headset so they just simply dont have the money to really put it back into software. We already see this with Pimax and many other hardware makers. Their plan is that they hope the current market has enough software out there to sell enough headsets to make their investments back. Windows has the window store, but no VR software/games that Steam had time to build on, but they too will be focus on their store more than using the Vive store in the future. We can already see this as MS is already promoting devs to make software on their store for their VR headsets - yet no one is screaming about that xD

    The real enemy to Vive is it's friend - as they say - you keep friends close - but you keep enemies closer - and unfortunately for the Vive - they were choke out from their own market by their closes enemy: Steam.
  • Atmos73Atmos73 Posts: 3,128 Valuable Player
    When you work it out and assume Oculus has sold 1million Rifts it works out at 2% or 20,000 units more than Vive. Rift could of sold 70,000 to Vives 50,000.
    Not a lot of difference really considering the Rift is one third less. HTC makes money from the DAS too so the difference is even smaller overall. The conclusion is Vive might sell less units but makes more revenue per unit. 
    DK2 owner - Vive owner - Pimax 8k backer - Waiting for Knuckles on Valve time.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 12,106 Power Poster
    Atmos73 said:
    When you work it out and assume Oculus has sold 1million Rifts it works out at 2% or 20,000 units more than Vive. Rift could of sold 70,000 to Vives 50,000.
    Not a lot of difference really considering the Rift is one third less. HTC makes money from the DAS too so the difference is even smaller overall. The conclusion is Vive might sell less units but makes more revenue per unit. 

    If the Vive made revenue per unit then why did they suffer pure losses for 27 straight months and then sell to Google?

    The Vive had to pay back investors from their Venture Capital Alliance as well as paying Valve for patents just to make the Vive. HTC suffered a loss in revenue from 2016-2017, not a gain.

    They are trying again in 2018 with Google's money.
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  • Atmos73Atmos73 Posts: 3,128 Valuable Player
    Facebook are still making a 3 billion loss on Oculus plus 500 million loss in court cases.

    Then there’s losses in all those exclusives. 

    Oculus make like zero profit on Rifts and most Rifters buy from the Steamstore you included.

    Oculus will stop funding games once the store is a viable business so says Justin Rubin’s. 
    DK2 owner - Vive owner - Pimax 8k backer - Waiting for Knuckles on Valve time.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 12,106 Power Poster
    edited March 4
    Atmos73 said:
    Facebook are still making a 3 billion loss on Oculus plus 500 million loss in court cases.

    Then there’s losses in all those exclusives. 

    Oculus make like zero profit on Rifts and most Rifters buy from the Steamstore you included.

    Oculus will stop funding games once the store is a viable business so says Justin Rubin’s. 

    You didn't answer the question; which must mean you knew you were wrong.

    Facebook and Oculus make profits from multiple sources, such as with each GearVR application purchase, and with all the money Oculus' competitors give Facebook to advertise their VR hardware & software products on... Facebook.

    Facebook bought Oculus as a positive investment, Google bought parts of HTC to save a sinking ship. The difference is staggering, but was inevitable and pretty obvious from the moment the Vive was launched.

    Most Rifters buy from Oculus Home, me included. Most Vivers use Revive to buy Oculus Home games, you included.
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  • Atmos73Atmos73 Posts: 3,128 Valuable Player
    Zenbane said:

     Most Vivers use VivePort to buy Oculus Home games, you included.

    VivePort? How do you buy Oculus games through VivePort?

    DK2 owner - Vive owner - Pimax 8k backer - Waiting for Knuckles on Valve time.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 12,106 Power Poster
    Atmos73 said:
    Zenbane said:

     Most Vivers use VivePort to buy Oculus Home games, you included.

    VivePort? How do you buy Oculus games through VivePort?


    Typo: Revive.

    VivePort is what HTC built to copy the success of Oculus Home and abandon SteamVR.
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  • Atmos73Atmos73 Posts: 3,128 Valuable Player
    You mean the same way Oculus is using Xiaomi to build GO and break into the China markets? Lol
    DK2 owner - Vive owner - Pimax 8k backer - Waiting for Knuckles on Valve time.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 3,968 Valuable Player
    edited March 4

    I've always been of the opinion that Oculus, via its store front was seen as a big threat to Valve's software monopoly and that was the driving force for them to deliver VR via an alternative piece of hardware. Valve could have just settled for allowing the Rift to be used with Steam games but without alternative hardware, there was always going to be the risk that the VR market would migrate wholesale to Oculus. VR was being touted as the future so the threat must have been taken very seriously. It still is the future but it's a longer path than some were predicting and I think Valve see the risk as being smaller than they originally thought.


    I'm not sure Valve were ever really interested in supporting VR via games software themselves. It was enough for them to make sure that alternative hardware existed and ensure that that hardware and the Rift could be used with Steam games. That way, software devs would continue to sell their VR games via Steam and Oculus would be restricted as much as possible into being a hardware vendor rather than hardware/software vendor.


    The question is, is the current speed of VR take-up slow enough for Valve to remain complacent. And at what point Rift adoption combined with VR gaming take-up becomes a problem for them.


    I'd say Rift adoption of 60% would be an issue for them but only in combination with VR games revenue achieving say 20%... no idea what it is right now but I'm guessing we're a few years away from that. If they're smart though, they shouldn't hang around for that to happen.

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  • MradrMradr Posts: 2,683 Valuable Player
    I really don't think Steam will have enough time to react with a software push just yet. Keep in mind that if they were going to take action that they might have already be talking about a release for the VR in terms of a new game. I could have miss something - but more or less I dont think they really care. As of now, we won't see anything from them until CV2 comes out as a way to keep Oculus customers buying games from the Steam store. Even if Oculus takes more of the software sells - it doesn't threaten Steam as much when they can offer a killer piece of software that will at least draw Oculus customers back.

    It depends a lot on how they are taking the MS threat more than anything. MS is a whole OS and that store will be seen by even none-gamers. When you look at it that way - it's possible that Steam might just simply not care about the VR sells as a whole until more demand comes out where they can really push a harder control for it. As is, VR devs  are really desperate to get their hardware and software in as many markets as they can either it be mobile, pc, or consoles. So it somes ways Steam really doesn't have to work hard for much in terms of what they need to sell on their end to VR users.

    Pimax, for example, is using Steam store simply because they wouldn't have the money nor weight to create their own private store and that means no software to really use their headset. MS used the stream store for right now simple because the software is already there until MS Store can grow their VR section. At some point, MS will drop Steam like a rock and just offer their store only instead (well I mean, not be as tightly integrated).

    More or less - there will always be hardware that will continue to use Steam as their software bank and that means there will always be a threat to Oculus software bank. MS on the other hand, now that will push any company to try a bit harder:)
  • BlackPixel_BlackPixel_ Posts: 46
    Brain Burst
    Can't we all just get along and grow together!  We are only humans with low life expectancy, and will deteriorate without experiencing the full potential of what this technology can be if we are chasing statistics and profit. I just wish they'd play nicely together and stop creating barriers. Share technology and solutions! 
    MSI X99 GODLIKE Board / Intel Core i7-6900K / 32GB Extreme DDR4 2400MHz Memory / GTX 1080 Founders / 

  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 5,201 Power Poster
    Can't we all just get along and grow together!  We are only humans with low life expectancy, and will deteriorate without experiencing the full potential of what this technology can be if we are chasing statistics and profit. I just wish they'd play nicely together and stop creating barriers. Share technology and solutions! 

    Bloody hippy! :p :D

    And to paraphrase Douglas Adams, the last bloke that said, "Hey man, why don't we all just be nice to each other for a change?" got nailed to a tree :o :D :D :D

    I think that sales of the different headsets is quite important tbh, particularly now that other manufacturers have started to release them. Unfortunately I think it's only a matter of time before HTC go bust and we lose one of the biggest VR manufacturers. We need competition for VR to move forward at a decent pace. If HTC do go under it could leave Pimax as the only competition that Oculus has for high-end VR.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • OmegaM4NOmegaM4N Posts: 222
    Nexus 6
    edited March 4
    I don't get involved in the whole who's faceless corp of choice is better then the other faceless corp of choice, but i do know one thing, if i am looking at two devices that do the same thing i will always go for the cheaper, and even moreso when it is half the price of the other vr headset, and if and when i can get one of those third party MR/AR headsets without external sensors cheaper than a rift, then i will be off onto that bandwagon, i mean i love the rift but if i can get the same expereince or close to it, cheaper and without external sensors, i will be off like a rat up a drain pipe......so it is just unfortunate that here in the UK and i suspect the EU, these third party vr's headsets seem to be only avaliable through third party dealers, hence why they all seem to cost the same as the rift or even more.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 5,201 Power Poster
    Well personally for my purchases it's a balancing act. Obviously the price of a headset is a big factor, as it is for anyone that isn't rich lol, but I won't pay for the cheapest thing if it isn't anywhere near as good as a more expensive thing.

    With the WVR headsets, even if they were cheap here in the UK as they are in the States, I wouldn't get one because they're not high-end headsets. They're mid-range headsets due to the tracking. If they all launched at the same time with the prices that they are right now I'd still get a Rift, even if it was a little more expensive than the WVR headsets.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • BeastyBaiterBeastyBaiter Posts: 757 Poster of the Week
    edited March 4
    Agreed, facebook, google, valve... they are all the same to me. I bought the best headset within my budget at the time, which was the Rift. If it were today, it would be between the Rift and the Odyssey. I'd like to upgrade HMD's at this point, but so far nothing has been offered that's substantially better. I had an Odyssey for a day but was disappointed and returned it. Only headset I know of in the works that might meet my desires is the CV2, but Oculus has said nothing about it so far.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 5,201 Power Poster
    I'm pretty sure that we'll get a teaser of the CV2 at F8 in May. No real details, but a little announcement at the end of Zuckerberg's keynote that it's coming next year and will be either 2K or 4K resolution.

    And I really hope that they don't adopt Pimax's wonky maths the way that HTC have done!
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • Hiro_Protag0nistHiro_Protag0nist Posts: 4,514 Valuable Player
    Atmos73 said:
    When you work it out and assume Oculus has sold 1million Rifts it works out at 2% or 20,000 units more than Vive. Rift could of sold 70,000 to Vives 50,000.
    Not a lot of difference really considering the Rift is one third less. HTC makes money from the DAS too so the difference is even smaller overall. The conclusion is Vive might sell less units but makes more revenue per unit. 

    I like your spirit Atmos but who gives a damn about how much profit the manager's are making - i want to know that when i go to play an online game there'll be a load of other players there.

    We know that a lot of those Vives are in the warehouse experiences and other business user's hands - that also makes a difference.
  • falken76falken76 Posts: 2,578 Valuable Player
    Atmos73 said:
    When you work it out and assume Oculus has sold 1million Rifts it works out at 2% or 20,000 units more than Vive. Rift could of sold 70,000 to Vives 50,000.
    Not a lot of difference really considering the Rift is one third less. HTC makes money from the DAS too so the difference is even smaller overall. The conclusion is Vive might sell less units but makes more revenue per unit. 

    You're delusional.  The bottom line is most people shop by price and at 1/2 the price the Rift is clearly the better deal and it will only continue to outsell the vive from here because.... well ultimately it comes down to this.  $400 is cheaper than $800.  Then you add on that it's a better overall system with a better integrated store, then it's a no brainer.  It seems that Oculus is going the route to make their money off of software sales, so revenue per unit wouldn't be relevent to them, repeat purchases from their user base is their business model.


    "The conclusion is Vive might sell less units but makes more revenue per unit."

    To the consumer the conclusion is very close, but the consumer would conclude that Vive sells less units BECAUSE they cost more per unit.

  • falken76falken76 Posts: 2,578 Valuable Player
    Atmos73 said:
    Facebook are still making a 3 billion loss on Oculus plus 500 million loss in court cases.

    Then there’s losses in all those exclusives. 

    Oculus make like zero profit on Rifts and most Rifters buy from the Steamstore you included.

    Oculus will stop funding games once the store is a viable business so says Justin Rubin’s. 

    Oh please, Facebook will be fine until the day advertisers realize that their ad program is a huge scam, until then everyone is throwing money at them.  Was there anything official that confirms that Facebook is not only not making anything, but that they consider the aquisition cost an actual loss?  You're ascribing the aquisition as a loss and that's 3 billion of what you claim.  The 500 Million... Has that been paid, is it on appeal?  Does Oculus release their numbers that confirm that they make nothing on their hardware, or hinted at the fact that they are going to stop funding games once the store is a viable business, and if that is their plan, what difference does it make?  I guess it would be their definition of "viable" that would make the difference on weather it matters or not if they continue funding games.

    What Loss on exclusives?  Do they release figures on those as well and claim they're not doing as well as they should?  As far as I knew, Zuckerberg was very clear that this was an endevor that was going to take the better half of a decade with the plan they're going with.  It's a little early in the plan to say they're obviously going to pull out and ditch it all.

    It's good to know that the good old flame wars of the BBS days are still holding strong these days.  Same debate different players.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 5,201 Power Poster
    Zenimax haven't received a penny from the defendants yet, they've launched an appeal. This going to drag out for YEARS.

    As has been mentioned several times before, Zuckerberg is in this for the long haul, not to make a quick buck. VR is the future in terms of gaming, entertainment, sports, music and most importantly social media. By the time things REALLY get going and VR headsets are as common in households as tellies that $3b that Facebook paid for Oculus and the $500m that Facebook have used to fund developers so far is going to be a bargain.

    And as has already been pointed out several times these figures are skewed in favour of the Vive too, which means that HTC have A LOT of problems at the moment.


    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • Atmos73Atmos73 Posts: 3,128 Valuable Player
    falken76 said:. 

    You're delusional.  The bottom line is most people shop by price and at 1/2 the price the Rift is clearly the better deal and it will only continue to outsell the vive from here because.... well ultimately it comes down to this.  $400 is cheaper than $800.

    I love when people call me delusional and then pull some fictitious numbers out their ass.

    You do know the Vive is £599 and hasn’t been £800 for quite some time?
    DK2 owner - Vive owner - Pimax 8k backer - Waiting for Knuckles on Valve time.
  • falken76falken76 Posts: 2,578 Valuable Player
    edited March 4
    My bad, I'm out of the loop, you see, I don't frequent forums for the Vive because I don't have one.  Either way the equation still works the same way, It costs more money so the consumer still sees the same thing.  Two items that provide nearly an identical experience and one is more expensive than the other.  The consumer will always chose the cheaper option.  The few that don't do not represent the majority for sure.



  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 12,106 Power Poster
    Atmos73 said:
    You do know the Vive is £599 and hasn’t been £800 for quite some time?

    And according to you... a price drop is an admission of defeat. So the Vive has been defeated for quite some time?
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 12,106 Power Poster
    edited March 4
    When Oculus' Rubin has made statements in the past that Atmos doesn't like, he ignores the statements entirely. Examples include when Rubin stated that he specifically instructed the Oculus Team to update OH in a way that better integrates Revive. This quote has been provided to Atmos repeatedly yet he ignores it in order to state that Oculus doesn't support Revive.

    When Rubin recently Tweated that he is involved in multiple Rift CV1 multi-million dollar projects, Atmos ignores it in order to state that Oculus is abandoning the Rift in favor of the Santa Cruz.

    But if Rubin says that, "Oculus will stop funding games once the store is a viable business," then omfg Atmos will make the quote Biblical and apply it to all circumstances.

    It's all good though. The forum needs its entertainment
    :p
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  • Atmos73Atmos73 Posts: 3,128 Valuable Player
    Sorry about that. I’d just finished watching The Social Network and Googled Justin Timberlake and the FB cofounder that got busted for having minors at a drug fuelled party - Sean Parker. 

    I hope we’re Luckey enough to get an Oculus Movie. 
    DK2 owner - Vive owner - Pimax 8k backer - Waiting for Knuckles on Valve time.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 12,106 Power Poster
    edited March 5
    Atmos73 said:
    Sorry about that. I’d just finished watching The Social Network and Googled Justin Timberlake and the FB cofounder that got busted for having minors at a drug fuelled party - Sean Parker.

    Wow... so that's what you do when you're not hate posting on Oculus forums? Explains alot.

    :#

    After you're done Googling anti-Facebook information, you should try Googling the dark history of Google.
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