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How Nvidia Ruins the Oculus Rift Experience

Sharkster-NVRSharkster-NVR Posts: 74
Hiro Protagonist
edited April 17 in Support
If you browse through this forum (or any forum that discusses Oculus hardware), you'll INSTANTLY find threads that deal with Nvidia compatibility issues with the Rift. The current (391.01) and the previous THREE Nvidia driver releases (390.77, 390.65 and 388.71) can show severe problems ranging up to total black-outs for Rift users. Instead, the early December 2017 released 388.59 is OFFICIALLY RECOMMENDED to be used.

Black Screen on Rift? Be Sure to Use Nvidia Driver 388.59 (posted Feb. 18)

It's now March 2018.

If you read a bit more, you'll quickly find out that even BEFORE 388.59, Nvidia drivers used to cause a lot of trouble. There are many threads dealing with the symptoms:

Nvidia drivers and Oculus Rift head tracking stutter / judder (posted Nov. 17)
Rift stuttering (GTX 1080 owner, posted Nov. 17)
How to fix second-wide stutter in Oculus Rift? (GTX 1080 owner, posted Nov. 17)
Heavy Stuttering During Moderately Intense Gameplay (GTX 1060 owner, posted Feb. 18)
Oculus Rift not working with Nvidia Driver 390.65 (posted Jan. 18)
45 FPS Problem in some games (GTX 1070 owner, posted Jan. 18)
Poor performance (GTX 1080 owner, posted Feb. 18)

EDIT - MORE THREADS ADDED IN APRIL -
Stutter with Nvidia drivers since 388 and beyond  (Trouble since 388 driver build, GTX 1060, posted April 18)
Occasional Brief Stutter/freeze when looking left/right (GTX 1080 owner, didn't have these issues when he got his Rift new, posted April 18)
occasionally stutter / judder - Please help (GTX 1080 owner, posted April 18)
Experiencing some lags/stutter in games/apps. Is hardware the problem? (GTX 1060 owner, posted April 18)

These were found by just looking through the first few pages of this forum. And while Nvidia GPUs may work fine with some configurations, it's quite clear that there is a severe and obvious thing going on ...and I can say for sure that our systems are affected by the problem.

I'm co-founder of a VR services company and back in or around August 2017, the Rift used to work great with the then current Nvidia drivers (~384.94), but from then on, things started to go downhill. The currently (officially recommended!) 388.59 driver causes an overall disappointing performance, stutters and just spoils the whole experience on our systems (see my signature for hardware details).

We tested the "recommended" 388.59 Nvidia drivers versus the old 384.94 drivers and found out interesting things. These tests were done on multiple notebooks (with identical configurations) and with multiple Rift headsets. So, it's more than unlikely, that faulty hardware has to do with these results.

We ran a few tests, firstly, in a very simple test environment (we created especially for this test) and secondly in a performance hungry VR experience which runs at an average of 45 FPS. Here are the results:


"Light" App (~90 FPS) on 384.94




"Light" App (~90 FPS) on 388.59
 


It's 11 and 7 dropped frames on 384.94 versus 276 and 49 on 388.59. The results really speak for themselves. All tests were done under same conditions, same app, same settings etc. It becomes even more worse and clear with the "Heavy" App (that runs on 45 FPS average):


"Heavy" App (~45 FPS) on 384.94




"Heavy" App (~45 FPS) on 388.59



With 45 FPS it's to be expected that around 50% of the total application frames are dropped (as 90 FPS is considered 100%), but the HUGE problem is in the Compositor Frame Drops: It's 3 (0.05%) versus 108 (1.74%). And this REALLY makes the experience unbearable. Compositor frame drops are frames that drop as a result of the Rift not properly functioning as opposed to frame drops due to performance hunger.

CONCLUSION: Current Nvidia drivers are HEAVILY broken for Oculus use and it's wise to use older drivers. However, the December 388.59 doesn't do it for us neither and we had to roll back all the way to 384.94 (released July 2017) for acceptable performance. Being developers ourselves, it's totally beyond us, how such an easy to reproduce misbehaviour wasn't already fixed months ago. With all the complaints on the first few pages of this board alone, Nvidia really seems to be either ignorant or too incompetent, to release actually working drivers for the Rift.

"THE WAY IT'S MEANT TO BE PLAGUED..."
ERAZER X7849 Notebook - CPU: Intel Core i7 6820HK - GPU: GTX 1070, 8 GB GDDR5 RAM - RAM: 32 GB (4x 8 GB DDR4 HYNIX PC4 17000 DUAL CHANNEL) - MAINBOARD: INTEL HM170
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Comments

  • YoLolo69YoLolo69 Posts: 932
    3Jane
    edited March 6
    That's a pretty good summarizing of this issue. Did you ring also NVidia team? When I was Game Dev (owning a company) I use to have a direct contact with their team, but that's pretty old, so I guess you probably have or can have some entries there too?

    “Dreams feel real while we are in them, it's only when we wake up that we realize something was strange.” - Dom Cobb

    "Be careful, if you are killed in real life you die in VR too." - TD_4242

  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 5,837 Volunteer Moderator
    Wow, fantastic comparison. Im going to try this on another rig of mine and use Nvidia's FCAT to gather all the data

    https://www.geforce.co.uk/whats-new/guides/fcat-vr-download-and-how-to-guide
    Core i7-7700k @ 4.9 Ghz | 32 GB DDR4 Corsair Vengeance @ 3000Mhz | 2x 1TB Samsung Evo | 2x 4GB WD Black
    ASUS MAXIMUS IX HERO | MSI AERO GTX 1080 OC @ 2000Mhz | Corsair Carbide Series 400C White (RGB FTW!) 

    Be kind to one another :)
  • BeastyBaiterBeastyBaiter Posts: 739 Poster of the Week
    So what you're saying is get an AMD graphics card once the mining craze dies down and you can get a Vega 56 for $400 instead of $1000+? :p

    In all seriousness, I've consistently had fewer problems with AMD hardware over the years than Intel/Nvidia. I say that as someone running an i7-8700k and GTX 1080 TI. They have better gaming performance when they work, but are definitely more of a hassle. I'm not having any problems with the current Nvdia drivers though. No doubt that means it will break later today.
  • Sharkster-NVRSharkster-NVR Posts: 74
    Hiro Protagonist
    Wow, fantastic comparison. Im going to try this on another rig of mine and use Nvidia's FCAT to gather all the data

    https://www.geforce.co.uk/whats-new/guides/fcat-vr-download-and-how-to-guide
    Cool. I didn't know about that tool. Going to download it now. Did you already run some tests with it regarding my driver comparision?
    ERAZER X7849 Notebook - CPU: Intel Core i7 6820HK - GPU: GTX 1070, 8 GB GDDR5 RAM - RAM: 32 GB (4x 8 GB DDR4 HYNIX PC4 17000 DUAL CHANNEL) - MAINBOARD: INTEL HM170
  • RavenBlueFeatherRavenBlueFeather Posts: 61
    Hiro Protagonist
    slight incompatabilitywith 1070 get a 1050 or 1080
  • saqsaq Posts: 16
    NerveGear

    We tested the "recommended" 388.59 Nvidia drivers versus the old 384.94 drivers and found out interesting things. These tests were done on multiple notebooks (with identical configurations) and with multiple Rift headsets. So, it's more than unlikely, that faulty hardware has to do with these results.

    So I installed 384.94 and tried using my rift after a reboot but the yellow light says on and Oculus home says I have ot upgrade my drivers and it doesn't work so I'm going to have to roll up to 388.59. Did you have to disable Oculus Core 2.0 and use the legacy home?
  • YoLolo69YoLolo69 Posts: 932
    3Jane
    388.59 is the first drivers version compatible with Rift Core 2.0.

    “Dreams feel real while we are in them, it's only when we wake up that we realize something was strange.” - Dom Cobb

    "Be careful, if you are killed in real life you die in VR too." - TD_4242

  • blanesblanes Posts: 1,061 Poster of the Week
    I do not doubt your findings however in use I find the latest nvidia 391.01 work find on my system which is i7-6700K with 16gb Ram and plain 1080 Gpu on Win10 latest version.
  • YoLolo69YoLolo69 Posts: 932
    3Jane
    For the record I'm using 391.05 (yes .05, the WHQL 391.01 had an hotfix) and I'm fine.

    “Dreams feel real while we are in them, it's only when we wake up that we realize something was strange.” - Dom Cobb

    "Be careful, if you are killed in real life you die in VR too." - TD_4242

  • BoneboysBoneboys Posts: 67
    Hiro Protagonist
    I've not noted such dramatic performance loss as the OP suggests between different drivers over the last year.
    Maybe the very simple test environment is overly susceptible to driver changes.

    Using 388.71 to solve the black screen error.
    Get a Grasp, get a Grip, get Rifting.
  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 5,837 Volunteer Moderator
    YoLolo69 said:
    For the record I'm using 391.05 (yes .05, the WHQL 391.01 had an hotfix) and I'm fine.
    Same here never had any issues, and my system is full of apps and background processes and whatnots as it's my main design machine also. The windows instal is ANCIENT .. its an upgrade from windows 8.1 .. hasn't been re-installed in a forever. 

    Im starting to wonder if the issue is not software but hardware/BIOS config related. I have my CPU overclocked and heavily tweaked in BIOS, my ram overclocked via XMP and my GTX 1080 overclocked and tweaked.
    Core i7-7700k @ 4.9 Ghz | 32 GB DDR4 Corsair Vengeance @ 3000Mhz | 2x 1TB Samsung Evo | 2x 4GB WD Black
    ASUS MAXIMUS IX HERO | MSI AERO GTX 1080 OC @ 2000Mhz | Corsair Carbide Series 400C White (RGB FTW!) 

    Be kind to one another :)
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 3,802 Valuable Player
    edited March 12

    LZ you're pretty much describing my machine and I have no issues with 391.01. Never had any issue with using the latest drivers... ever. My last Windows install if I remember was a clean one though after previously upgrading from 7 but that install seems like a very long time ago now & like you I have a lot of processes on the go. Also, a very simple OC based on XMP and a BIOS pre-set to OC the CPU.


    I'd love to drill down exactly what hardware is encountering the problems.. graphics card manufacturer, batch numbers, motherboards, bios. I just don't understand how people like you & me seemingly don't have to do anything much to avoid problems. I almost feel guilty.


    Edit: I think I've mentioned this a lot.. but it would be so useful for people to put their full spec as a signature on their posts, I'm always curious if there's something obvious we're missing, like MB chipset or something.

    Gateway 2000, Pentium II 300 Mhz CPU, 64Mb RAM, STB Velocity 128 AGP Graphics Card with 4MB SGRAM, 6.4Gb Hard Drive, US Robotics 56.5kbps Internal Modem, 12/24x CDROM Drive, Ensoniq AudioPCI, Windows 95.
  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 5,837 Volunteer Moderator

    Edit: I think I've mentioned this a lot.. but it would be so useful for people to put their full spec as a signature on their posts, I'm always curious if there's something obvious we're missing, like MB chipset or something.

    Yes! That would be super useful, I was trying to diagnose an issue for somone, then they told me eventually they have An Acer Laptop with INTEL graphics ... :neutral:

    Yeah, I feel guilty too, buttery smooth performance also ...  I haven't had a BSOD or a hang in a year either .. 
    Core i7-7700k @ 4.9 Ghz | 32 GB DDR4 Corsair Vengeance @ 3000Mhz | 2x 1TB Samsung Evo | 2x 4GB WD Black
    ASUS MAXIMUS IX HERO | MSI AERO GTX 1080 OC @ 2000Mhz | Corsair Carbide Series 400C White (RGB FTW!) 

    Be kind to one another :)
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 4,553 Valuable Player
    edited March 12
    This must be to do with certain Graphics Cards and a Nvidia problem. Updating Graphics cards drivers only involves the graphics card doesn't it? If that's the case what more could it be? What Grahics Cards are in these notebooks, including make and model? Have you spoke with Nvida about this and more to the point has Oculus? 

    Have you tried uninstalling any anti malware programs you have on your computer? I know sometimes these programs don't get along with driver updates, so do try that and run the tests. I would also make sure you completely uninstall the graphics card driver leaving no traces of the previous one. You can get programs that remove all traces of a previous driver.

    I think the big question that needs answering though, is how do your netbooks perform outside of VR on a 2D monitor? Better or worse with the latest graphics card driver when playing games ..etc? That way you can see if it's just the Oculus Rift that's having problems with the graphics drivers..

      
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 3,802 Valuable Player

    I don't know if it's ever as simple as just the graphics card & driver, everything in a PC pretty much interacts with everything else to a greater or lesser extent. All of your PC's components communicate with the CPU through its chipset for example, graphics card drivers must have components that facilitate that communication.


    I'm just using the chipset as an example, and yes, a perfect graphics card driver would eliminate any issues that a graphics card has with any component in your PC but until the perfect driver exists, it's useful to pin down what components, if any are common in PCs that are being reported as having a problem.

    Gateway 2000, Pentium II 300 Mhz CPU, 64Mb RAM, STB Velocity 128 AGP Graphics Card with 4MB SGRAM, 6.4Gb Hard Drive, US Robotics 56.5kbps Internal Modem, 12/24x CDROM Drive, Ensoniq AudioPCI, Windows 95.
  • AymitoAymito Posts: 39
    Brain Burst
    Nvidia  care about the new released games, they even say this version is optimized for this new game, they don't test if the new driver will ruin any other performance VR or not, are game companies paying for new optimized drivers "I don't know"..

    But Nvidia or any other graphic card manufactures can definitely offer many optimization for VR setup "if they want to" ,
    ....they saw what cryptocurrency did to triple cards prices and they did nothing about it...they really don't care if its used for gaming, VR  or for any other purpose as long that they have empty stock from their production ....

    We need dedicated VR drivers for the Oculus rift and all other headset manufactures have to ask for the same if they want best performance for their system,  and Oculus need to test all drivers and recommend the best versions available and offer an application that can optimize the settings for the best possible performance.





  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 578
    Neo
    Aymito said:
    Nvidia  care about the new released games, they even say this version is optimized for this new game, they don't test if the new driver will ruin any other performance VR or not, are game companies paying for new optimized drivers "I don't know"..

    But Nvidia or any other graphic card manufactures can definitely offer many optimization for VR setup "if they want to" ,
    ....they saw what cryptocurrency did to triple cards prices and they did nothing about it...they really don't care if its used for gaming, VR  or for any other purpose as long that they have empty stock from their production ....

    We need dedicated VR drivers for the Oculus rift and all other headset manufactures have to ask for the same if they want best performance for their system,  and Oculus need to test all drivers and recommend the best versions available and offer an application that can optimize the settings for the best possible performance.






    Yeah this sounds good to me, they should offer separate VR drivers and they should at least test the drivers to work with all the latest and top VR games including some of the oldest and best.

    Oculus really need to get on top of this.

    One day I updated my drivers and tried to play Robo Recall and it was a stuttering mess and I had to roll back.

    I've been using really old nvidia drivers for ages now!
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 4,553 Valuable Player
    edited March 12
    Well here's another thing. Why do people feel the need to update Nvidia drivers when everything is running fine? Usually an update is only to get 1 or 2 Fps more from a game you might not even own and even that's debatable. I find sometimes it doesn't give you any performance boost, but just reminds you of the name Nvidia.

    If I was the OP I would ask Nvidia what the problem is. I'd also like to know if he's done these test on a 2D monitor just to see if the Nvidia driver is causing problems only for VR..
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 4,553 Valuable Player
    edited March 13
    @Sharkster-NVR - Do you have a reply to all of these answers? Might help find the problem if you do..Cheers!
  • Oneofthe12sOneofthe12s Posts: 18
    NerveGear
    I'm running latest drivers on gtx 1070 with no issue...yet.
  • ThmoasThmoas Posts: 263
    Nexus 6
    I think I have no issues. I have a 980ti GPU with 8600K CPU.

    How can I know I have issues? Maybe with the old drivers I get more FPS and run games on higher settings? I play Lone Echo all on High except shadows are on Medium. 1.5 SS. I have small stutter sometimes when moving fast in space.
  • Sharkster-NVRSharkster-NVR Posts: 74
    Hiro Protagonist
    edited April 16
    As I already pointed out, NVIDIA GPUs may work on some systems, but CLEARLY don't work with others. I've already put a list of threads in the initial post... and just by looking at the first page of the support forum, there are more complaints incoming, like e.g.

    Stutter with Nvidia drivers since 388 and beyond  (Trouble since 388 driver build, GTX 1060, posted yesterday)
    Occasional Brief Stutter/freeze when looking left/right (posted today, GTX 1080 owner, didn't have these issues when he got his Rift new)
    occasionally stutter / judder - Please help (posted today, GTX 1080 owner)

    I was away from the forum for a few weeks only to come back and the very first posts on the very first page jump me with Nvidia issues.

    And please... it's of NO HELP, if you YOU DON'T encounter these issues and post a "I don't get these issues"-comment here, as it will only inflate the thread and it doesn't help the many people who actually encounter these problems.

    To me (just like to many of these guys), they could easily be fixed by going back to driver 384 (which proves that it is solely driver related), yet NVIDIA doesn't bother AT ALL. They've ruined the Oculus experience post 384 drivers for many users and they don't give a f*ck to fix it.

    WHICH REMINDS ME:
    ERAZER X7849 Notebook - CPU: Intel Core i7 6820HK - GPU: GTX 1070, 8 GB GDDR5 RAM - RAM: 32 GB (4x 8 GB DDR4 HYNIX PC4 17000 DUAL CHANNEL) - MAINBOARD: INTEL HM170
  • cleanupdisccleanupdisc Posts: 208
    Nexus 6
    Im glad im on team red :)
  • Star-lizardStar-lizard Posts: 215
    Nexus 6
    Yeah I have to say amd has been very solid, I have had my rx480 for a bit now and I fined that it's only gotten better
  • MAC_MAN86MAC_MAN86 Posts: 868
    Trinity
    Does HMD or Oculus Debug's PixelDensity require the DSR set to ON?
    Here are issues on this if not set ON and is newly introduced in 384.94
    http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/answers/id-2345438/nvidia-dsr-options.html
  • cleanupdisccleanupdisc Posts: 208
    Nexus 6
    Yeah I have to say amd has been very solid, I have had my rx480 for a bit now and I fined that it's only gotten better
    Thats the same card i got! It packs just enough of a punch for 1080p ultra gaming and just enough for vr gaming at atleast  medium settings in big games.
  • Sharkster-NVRSharkster-NVR Posts: 74
    Hiro Protagonist
    MAC_MAN86 said:
    Does HMD or Oculus Debug's PixelDensity require the DSR set to ON?
    Here are issues on this if not set ON and is newly introduced in 384.94
    http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/answers/id-2345438/nvidia-dsr-options.html
    @MAC_MAN86 How could this be related to the problems? The thread you linked is from 2014... Please elaborate. Also, 384.94 is not the first driver to cause problems, but one of (or maybe THE) last to be flawless with the Rift.
    ERAZER X7849 Notebook - CPU: Intel Core i7 6820HK - GPU: GTX 1070, 8 GB GDDR5 RAM - RAM: 32 GB (4x 8 GB DDR4 HYNIX PC4 17000 DUAL CHANNEL) - MAINBOARD: INTEL HM170
  • falken76falken76 Posts: 2,479 Valuable Player
    Aymito said:

    But Nvidia or any other graphic card manufactures can definitely offer many optimization for VR setup "if they want to" ,
    ....they saw what cryptocurrency did to triple cards prices and they did nothing about it...they really don't care if its used for gaming, VR  or for any other purpose as long that they have empty stock from their production ....


    What do you propose they do about it?  They do not produce the GPU chips themselves, they are produced by a manufacture that is under heavy contract so they buy their stock in advance.  The crypto stuff has increased demand.  The bottleneck is the production of the chips, they need to scale operation in order to meet the demand.  But who wants to do that when Crypto is supposedly a volatile market that is likely to collapse.  If they scale and it collapses, the price of cards will go back up to cover the investment costs.  I.E.  Chip buyers will be paying higher costs to obtain chips if the bottom falls out and that cost will be transferred to the consumer.

    Nvidia has no say in this, they can not control how many chips are actually produced.  So what do you propose they do about this so that you get the impression that they care?
  • MAC_MAN86MAC_MAN86 Posts: 868
    Trinity
    edited April 17
    @Sharkster-NVR ; I got lost in driver numbers after staying up all night in chat box to Nvidia. Just wondered if 384.94 also had to have DSR switched on at all in case of any issue.
  • Sharkster-NVRSharkster-NVR Posts: 74
    Hiro Protagonist
    edited April 17
    @MAC_MAN86 - We didn't manually alter any control panel settings. Just a straight installation to have a neutral and objective comparision. Never touched the DSR settings.

    @falken76 - Keep in mind that the issue we're discussing is solely driver related and Nvidia obviously has full control over driver development.

    This thread has more than 1.3k views so far (and climbing) and a bunch of threads of Nvidia owners with issues bundled. Yet, no one from Nvidia (or Oculus) responded. It's obvious that there's something going extremely wrong here.
    ERAZER X7849 Notebook - CPU: Intel Core i7 6820HK - GPU: GTX 1070, 8 GB GDDR5 RAM - RAM: 32 GB (4x 8 GB DDR4 HYNIX PC4 17000 DUAL CHANNEL) - MAINBOARD: INTEL HM170
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