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"Consumer interest in VR is declining according to sales data trends"!?

RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 769
3Jane
edited July 11 in General
https://media.thinknum.com/articles/sales-data-shows-that-consumer-interest-in-vr-is-waning/

Maybe the suggested trends are true, but I have several problems with that article. 

1. The first graph doesn't show PS4 VR sales strictly - it shows Skyrim Bundle Sales Rank. I don't like Skyrim - I'd never go for that bundle too. 

2. Next is HTC Vive - which seems to go up in May and slightly down in June - but it starts at about 90 in March and finishes at about 97 in June. Not much variation - and we all know that the summer vacation means low VR sales. So I don't see any specific trend here at all - actually VIVE seems to be doing fine or at least seems stable. 

3. Then comes Samsung Gear VR. Note that this chart must be only showing data from 2016 - it ends in "Nov" and the text only mentions the year 2016. So this chart does not belong with the other results, it seems like a far-fetched attempt be the author to support some trend that the author believes exists. 

4. Finally there's Oculus Go -  which are the results that worry me the most. Still new things often ride on an initial wave of curiosity, and will then slowly sink to a more stable level, maybe that's what we're seeing here. 

Also note the chart that has been omitted by the author - the Rift chart! Is the author hiding something that doesn't support the proposed trend?

So I just checked the latest Steam VR hardware survey results - today they are - July 11 2018:



And:



And here they are April 30 2018 (I mailed the results to some friends back then, so therefore I have these results):

VR Headsets 
Oculus Rift 0.20%
HTC Vive 0.18%
Windows Mixed Reality 0.01%
Oculus Rift DK2 0.01%
Oculus Rift DK1 0.00%
Unknown 0.00%

Thus Rift has gone from 0.20% to 0.32% - that's a massive 60% increase in just 2 months! 
HTC Vive went up from 0.18 to 0.31 - a massive 72% increase in just 2 months!
Windows MR also increased 5 times from 0.01 to 0.05 - that's not bad either, right?

I do believe that Oculus Go and Gear VR may be poisoning the well - but I really don't see any decline in real VR adoption - if current Steam trends are continuing, Rift and Vive may reach 1% in 9 to 12 months, which would make these headsets about as popular as the GeForce GTX 1080 Ti  ;) 
Intel i7 7700K (4.2-4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS (Home/OEM); Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling at 2.0. 

"Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR" ;-)
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Comments

  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,341 Volunteer Moderator
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  • WreckLuse68WreckLuse68 Posts: 250
    Nexus 6
    edited July 11
    To be honest the whole VR scene hasn't turned out to be the groundbreaking home entertainment revolution I was hoping for.
    A couple of weeks ago I was considering buying a new CV1 to replace my slightly tattered second-hand one that I bought, but I simply couldn't justify that sort of money outlay at the moment for something I pretty much only use for the occasional drive in PCars 2 or Assetto Corsa now that the novelty has worn off...and I am even considering setting my triple monitors up again for those as I just sweat too much when I drive with the headset on. I am thinking that the money would be more wisely used going towards a nice monitor.
    I know I am old and slow witted but the whole VR thing (as far as I can see) seems to have gone a little stagnant...the Oculus Store being a prime example...I haven't bought anything from there for months as I pretty much bought anything of interest to me within the first 2 or 3 weeks of owning a Rift and nothing I would consider spending much (or any) money on has appeared since.
    Anyways...just my 2 pennies worth

    When Einstein was asked how it felt to be the smartest man on Earth, he replied, “I wouldn’t know. Ask Nikola Tesla”.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 5,175 Power Poster
    The funniest thing about this article and other similar articles discussing the same sort of thing is that apart from the GearVR and PSVR sales WE HAVE NO OFFICIAL SALES DATA AT ALL. These are just guesstimations.

    The VR industry is doing fine, nobody with any sense was expecting VR to go anywhere near mainstream this early and sell truckloads. Oculus themselves made a statement ages ago saying it could take 5-10 years for this to happen.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • kzintzikzintzi Posts: 992 Poster of the Week
    snowdog said:


    The VR industry is doing fine, nobody with any sense was expecting VR to go anywhere near mainstream this early and sell truckloads. Oculus themselves made a statement ages ago saying it could take 5-10 years for this to happen.
    Agree with this 100%. One can only assume that people need to make money and if you're going to write about VR, saying it's tanking is a way to generate clicks..

    I love my headset (albeit slightly broken), and still spend 3hrs+ a week in it.. it'd be more but life gets in the way; when I'm on holidays or do have a day free with nothing but free time in it (rare though it is) I spend at least 5 hours in there.

    and now that I have an SSD's as my boot drive and Oculus game drive it hammers along (no more 40+ sec load times for Skyrim :smile: )

    Though you are more than slightly incoherent, I agree with you Madam,
    a plum is a terrible thing to do to a nostril.
  • LuluViBritanniaLuluViBritannia Posts: 346
    Trinity
    edited July 11
    To be honest the whole VR scene hasn't turned out to be the groundbreaking home entertainment revolution I was hoping for.
    When you said :

    I pretty much only use for the occasional drive

    You pointed out the problem yourself: you use VR for only one feature (simulation). Of course it will become redundant. You should try out other stuff. Because as far as technology goes, VR does change everything.
    Have you tried Beat Saber? Once you played this, you can't play any normal rythm game anymore.
    Have you tried any FPS game? Once you do, you'll laugh at this "gamepad vs mouse&keyboard war" , because none of those controls are as effective as VR controls (bigger FOV, easier camera control, more natural use of the weapons).
    Have you tried social apps (VRChat, Rec Room, ...)? Communication in VR is much more consistent than communication in normal games (since you can use not only the mic and emotes, but also your hands to interact). Being able to raise our hands in a FPS game to say we surrender, there's no such thing in normal games.

    Also... replacing a VR headset with monitors? Seriously? Right, 'cause nothing is more immersive than flat, limited screens. Three monitors have the exact same problems as one monitor : limited sight, no perspective, no immersion whatsoever, and that screen light that always reminds you that you're facing a screen.
    That said, sweating is definitely a problem with VR headsets ^^. But sweating while playing a sim game, sitting down? Maybe you should consider using a fan xD.


    Anyway. About the sales of the headsets, I would like to point out something important : many people buy several headsets. I don't know any VR Youtuber who doesn't own at least two of those.
    The sales are definitely alright, but the number of VR owners is definitely much lower.
    That said I do think VR is doing well, given it's been here for two years only.
    Previous VR face :


    My current config : HP Omen laptop, 8 GB RAM, Intel i5-7300HQ @2.5GHz + Nvidia GTX 1050 (2GB VRAM).

    Currently plays on :

    - Beat Saber.
    - Windlands.
    - Skyrim VR.

    I use VR for :
    - Games.
    - Art Software (Tilt Brush, Oculus Medium, Mocu Mocu Dance).
    - Cinema VR (Oculus Desktop or Virtual Desktop).

    "You are allowed to kill only if you are prepared to die."
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 12,091 Power Poster

    I saw this topic earlier as well. I chalk it up as typical "bad journalism" which has become so commonplace. For example,

    In February:
    Teens are fleeing Facebook in record numbers
    As of the first quarter of 2018, Facebook had 2.19 billion monthly active users.

    This is the age of, "well if I said it, then it must be true."
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 769
    3Jane
    edited July 11
    To be honest the whole VR scene hasn't turned out to be the groundbreaking home entertainment revolution I was hoping for.
    I get that a lot from persons who have not seen the Seeking Dawn trailer  ;)



    Lone Echo, Moss, The Vanishing of Ethan Carter VR, Robinson - The Journey, Elite Dangerous are just a few examples of VR games that have moved me far beyond anything else - ok, maybe apart from when I met my wife or got the first-born son...    

    Doom, Tomb Raider 3dfx (1996 on Voodoo Graphics), maybe Outcast in 1999 and then Lone Echo in 2017 would be the games that impressed me the most when they launched - and absolutely nothing beats Lone Echo for now (ok, did play using super-sampling (SS) 2.0 on a oc'ed GTX 1080, not sure I'd appreciate many VR games if I had to use lower levels of SS). I'd consider VR one of mankind's most impressive inventions. VR even took me to the moon on Apollo 11 and I've been spacewalking outside the ISS!  B)  

    BTW, Seeking Dawn should be released today (July 12, at least on Steam - full Rift support - should be released in Oculus Store too, possible also today, but no date has been announced in the Oculus Store). I've already informed the family that Dad - unfortunately - will need to take parts of his summer vacation off-planet  o:)
    Intel i7 7700K (4.2-4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS (Home/OEM); Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling at 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR" ;-)
  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 3,423 Valuable Player
    I would say - like others here  have said also - time of the year is part of it.
    it is hot here in Blighty right now, really hot, and the last thing i feel like doing is strapping a vr mask to my noggin.

    of course you could argue its always hot somewhere in the world, however i would hazard a guess that between europe and the US we cover a large number of vr sales and it is a general trend that in summer people tend to spend less on technology and more on other things like actually going outside and family time etc.

    Combine that with i the fact that we are so close to the end of a gpu generation, i wonder how many people without vr ready gpus are waiting for the next gen to come out before jumping in on a big upgrade and maybe at the same time checking out VR.
    Personally i think there is some really good stuff on the horizon software wise for VR.  the new pimax hmd should be out by the end of the year, as should Santa Cruz and hopefully some more news on CV2.

    maybe knuckles will finally come out and HTC may smell the coffee and release an affordable Vive Pro bundle including knuckles????  (I know some have been championing knuckles for 18 months or more but they will surely come out eventually???)

    all of the stuff above i think will mean any perceived dip in VR right now will be fixed in Q3/Q4.

    I know i personally am as happy with VR right now as I have ever been. the price of the rift package as it is now is crazy good value imo.
    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • WreckLuse68WreckLuse68 Posts: 250
    Nexus 6
    To be honest the whole VR scene hasn't turned out to be the groundbreaking home entertainment revolution I was hoping for.
    When you said :

    I pretty much only use for the occasional drive

    You pointed out the problem yourself: you use VR for only one feature (simulation). Of course it will become redundant. You should try out other stuff. Because as far as technology goes, VR does change everything.
    Have you tried Beat Saber? Once you played this, you can't play any normal rythm game anymore.
    Have you tried any FPS game? Once you do, you'll laugh at this "gamepad vs mouse&keyboard war" , because none of those controls are as effective as VR controls (bigger FOV, easier camera control, more natural use of the weapons).
    Have you tried social apps (VRChat, Rec Room, ...)? Communication in VR is much more consistent than communication in normal games (since you can use not only the mic and emotes, but also your hands to interact). Being able to raise our hands in a FPS game to say we surrender, there's no such thing in normal games.

    Also... replacing a VR headset with monitors? Seriously? Right, 'cause nothing is more immersive than flat, limited screens. Three monitors have the exact same problems as one monitor : limited sight, no perspective, no immersion whatsoever, and that screen light that always reminds you that you're facing a screen.
    That said, sweating is definitely a problem with VR headsets ^^. But sweating while playing a sim game, sitting down? Maybe you should consider using a fan xD.


    Anyway. About the sales of the headsets, I would like to point out something important : many people buy several headsets. I don't know any VR Youtuber who doesn't own at least two of those.
    The sales are definitely alright, but the number of VR owners is definitely much lower.
    That said I do think VR is doing well, given it's been here for two years only.
    Your assumptions...like your logic...are completely way out...try reading what I wrote again.
    When Einstein was asked how it felt to be the smartest man on Earth, he replied, “I wouldn’t know. Ask Nikola Tesla”.
  • KenSniperKenSniper Posts: 159
    Art3mis
    I'm the type that usually take these kind of articles with a grain of salt, but like what others have stated, there is no actual sales data, and simply tasting the wind from your own perspective doesnt really address the current state of VR.

    I'm still using my rift almost everyday, or at least every week since i bought it almost 2 years ago, (damn, it has been 2 years), and I believe that the continuity and the life of VR all depends on us, from us showing support, sharing gameplay vids, content creation, funny moments, like how VRchat boomed and really racked in a lot of sales in VR headsets. A lot of people claim they want that "killer app", but for me Virtual Reality as a whole is my killer app. I've been yearning for VR since I was a little kid exposed to the .hack series, and now that it's here Im not gonna let it die just like that
  • WreckLuse68WreckLuse68 Posts: 250
    Nexus 6
    snowdog said:
    The funniest thing about this article and other similar articles discussing the same sort of thing is that apart from the GearVR and PSVR sales WE HAVE NO OFFICIAL SALES DATA AT ALL. These are just guesstimations.

    The VR industry is doing fine, nobody with any sense was expecting VR to go anywhere near mainstream this early and sell truckloads. Oculus themselves made a statement ages ago saying it could take 5-10 years for this to happen.
    I'll come back in 5-10 years then.
    When Einstein was asked how it felt to be the smartest man on Earth, he replied, “I wouldn’t know. Ask Nikola Tesla”.
  • LuluViBritanniaLuluViBritannia Posts: 346
    Trinity
    WreckLuse68
    Your assumptions...like your logic...are completely way out...

    You mean like your argumentation? Oh no, that one is non-existent.
    If my logic is out, how about you explain what I got wrong? I did quote your own words.
    Besides, just because I quoted you doesn't mean I answered directly to you. It was more of a general answer, towards people sayng VR is not a revolution and, as we usually hear, "just a gimmick". That includes you but isn't specific for you, bear that in mind.

    Anyway, you said (literally) that VR isn't revolutionary for home entertainment, I explained why it actually is, and what it brings that nothing else could. There is no flaw in that logic. If there is, how about you point it out? It's called common sense.
    Previous VR face :


    My current config : HP Omen laptop, 8 GB RAM, Intel i5-7300HQ @2.5GHz + Nvidia GTX 1050 (2GB VRAM).

    Currently plays on :

    - Beat Saber.
    - Windlands.
    - Skyrim VR.

    I use VR for :
    - Games.
    - Art Software (Tilt Brush, Oculus Medium, Mocu Mocu Dance).
    - Cinema VR (Oculus Desktop or Virtual Desktop).

    "You are allowed to kill only if you are prepared to die."
  • Atmos73Atmos73 Posts: 3,128 Valuable Player
    There are several reasons VR hadn’t taken off as the OP suggests.

    The current most popular GPU for PC gaming is a GTX1060 at 14%. This card is not recommended for VR. If you want PCVR you need the cash for a decent PC and if you want next gen VR you’ll need £600-1000 to spend on a GPU alone. Crypto mining and Nvidia inability to fuel demand prices most people out of VR or pushes people into console gaming.

    Even if you have the money for the latest GPU - VR running twin displays at 90hz limits the available power that can be used on making VR games look good. Modern games are designed for 1080 displays at 60hz. The gulf between 2D gaming and VR gaming is massive. Compare the best 2D shooter to the best VR shooter there’s probably a 10 year gap if not more.  For example the latest Battlefield to Onward, there just no comparison. Nobody in there right mind is going to give up 2D for VR. That means we are not in our right mind and the OP is correct to want to go back to 2D gaming. 
    DK2 owner - Vive owner - Pimax 8k backer - Waiting for Knuckles on Valve time.
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 3,992 Valuable Player
    edited July 12
    snowdog said:
    ......
    The VR industry is doing fine, nobody with any sense was expecting VR to go anywhere near mainstream this early and sell truckloads. Oculus themselves made a statement ages ago saying it could take 5-10 years for this to happen.

    A valid point - and for the "majority" of the level headed posters in the VR community that did not buying-in to the Koolaid - VR is doing fine "for them"! They got their PC high-end VR, they have great games, and they have great simulation - and for these Prosumers they can look forward to a consumer sector (as with 3D gaming) that speaks to them and will not be mainstream in a long time, but will support their needs.

    But that was not what was sold to most (and more importantly those that invested to now allow the Prosumers to be happy!); and that is where the resentment stems from from some media and investments. We have to admit that a number of investors and evangelists were sold on the Kickstarter and FB acquisition story of "VR will be big by 2016" - and that this will be a major industry in consumer. As one that was attacked for questioning this back in 2015-16-17 - I think it was a view that more than just a few "with no sense" expected!

    I am typing this from DEVELOP Brighton - a major UK game developer conference, and as an examples a number of the indie development teams that once supported VR development post DK2 have either ended their love affair with VR (2016 there was numerous VR on show - this year four examples!); Or we see the pivoting - why you find a Out-of-Home entertainment specialist invited to a consumer game conference!  B)
    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 769
    3Jane
    edited July 12
    Sigh - posted a comment in the wrong thread, sorry  :( 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.2-4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS (Home/OEM); Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling at 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR" ;-)
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 3,992 Valuable Player
    Atmos73 said:
    There are several reasons VR hadn’t taken off as the OP suggests.

    The current most popular GPU for PC gaming is a GTX1060 at 14%. This card is not recommended for VR. If you want PCVR you need the cash for a decent...

    I think you will see that we have covered a dedicated list in other posts about the stumbling blocks. And GPU and availability has increased as a reason, but by no means the first reason. Cypto-mining has played its part in impacting the overall price of consumer VR and availability of supply - but the fundamental of why the non-Prosumer has not invested in PC high-end VR are more than clear, and uncomfortable for some that thought it would be mainstream.

    I think that "Ballpark-Gate" impacted the perception of what PC VR would be priced at (with the core audience for VR) more than we thought - and that possibly the inability to internally admit this resulted inevitably in the departures, but also the need for the sea change in thinking towards the 5-10 road-map that was so criticised at the time.

    A factor why I have my reservations regarding what @snowdog said about a possible CV2 for 2019, when I think the writing is on the wall regarding a core focus for the next 15-months on SC!

    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 3,423 Valuable Player
    edited July 12
    Atmos73 said:
     That means we are not in our right mind
    you may be right, but if so i am blissfully out of my mind :smile:

    yes the eye candy is not close to battlefield on a 4k display.... but i would take the immersion offered in VR every day of the week, and i suspect many of us here feel the same (maybe even you yourself given you are getting a pimax 8k and you will need a monster to run that properly)

    the eye candy IS catching up tho, just look at games like lone echo and others coming soon - that james bondy one looks fab.
    next gen hopefully out soon should lower the price of entry even more.  a 1060 is just fine for most made for VR games, (ie not 2D games with VR added on)..... i suspect an 1150 will be considered VR ready and at that point we will be getting down to the point where entry level gaming machines are vr ready almost by default.


    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 769
    3Jane
    edited July 12
    Atmos73 said:
     That means we are not in our right mind
    you may be right, but if so i am blissfully out of my mind :smile:

    yes the eye candy is not close to battlefield on a 4k display.... but i would take the immersion offered in VR every day of the week, and i suspect many of us here feel the same (maybe even you yourself given you are getting a pimax 8k and you will need a monster to run that properly)

    the eye candy IS catching up tho, just look at games like lone echo and others coming soon - that james bondy one looks fab.
    next gen hopefully out soon should lower the price of entry even more.  a 1060 is just fine for most made for VR games, (ie not 2D games with VR added on)..... i suspect an 1150 will be considered VR ready and at that point we will be getting down to the point where entry level gaming machines are vr ready almost by default.



    I think the best VR games look better than the best 2D games. Nothing compares to Lone Echo or the jungle in Robinson: The Journey (made by Crytek). I don't recall any AAA 2D game with a trailer that looks better than Seeking Dawn (we'll see how the game match the trailer soon). Graphics are great in 2D games like BattleField 1 and Rise of the Tomb Raider - and especially Hellblade impressed me - but nah, nothing compares to VR, and I really mean that. 

    Hellblade trailer - for those who are not familiar with that game - all is in-game graphics (Unreal Engine 4)



    The price of having Lone Echo - and Doom VFR - looking that good is unfortunately that you'll need a GTX 1080 or similar - or even better - and a high-end cpu. Battlefield 1 performs great on a GTX 1060 in 1920x1080 - same goes for Rise of the Tomb Raider - and Hellblade. 

    I think I'll need at least a GTX 2080 to run Obduction VR at 90 fps using super-sampling (SS) 2.0. 

    Getting better VR headsets will probably just fuel the need for faster GPUs - already now Vive Pro owners can't enable a lot of SS before 1080 Ti runs out of juice. 

    Still there are many VR games not requiring much GPU power - by lowering details, even Lone Echo should be able to run nicely on GTX 1060.
    Intel i7 7700K (4.2-4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS (Home/OEM); Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling at 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR" ;-)
  • Atmos73Atmos73 Posts: 3,128 Valuable Player
    edited July 12
    My son is 18 he has a PC if his own but doesn’t have the income like I have to spend because he’s in full time education. Now he spends most of his time playing 2D games and when I ask about his lack of enthusiasm for VR he puts it down to cost. If he had £500 he wound out that towards a new GPU and continue playing 2D. He doesn’t allow himself to get excited about VR because it’s out of his reach as I expect it is for the 14% who own GTX 1060s.

    For VR to succeed forget about dedicated games that’s a short term fix imo.

    VR needs to find a way (foveated rendering) to bridge the gap. As higher resolutions come to VR power requirements are heading in the wrong direction for PCVR to become mainstream and VR will be reliant on the 1% who own 1180s. 

    Lone echo looks nice but it’s still looks like a five year old game ie, no better than Alien Isolation 2014 which is vastly superior. 

    Until the gap between 2D and VR shrinks mass adoption of PCVR will never be a thing. 


    DK2 owner - Vive owner - Pimax 8k backer - Waiting for Knuckles on Valve time.
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 3,992 Valuable Player
    edited July 12
    Atmos73 said:
    .....
    For VR to succeed forget about dedicated games that’s a short term fix imo.
    .....

    I think that speaks back to the original management that felt all was needed was that "killer app" - and why we kept plugging VR consumer as a Flatscreen solution rather than a XBox approach to business - you care about the program on the TV, and not the make of the Flatscreen. Fundamentally, why the investment into RockBandVR was such a dead-end, and illustrated the lack of vision of those steering at the time.

    ....
    VR needs to find a way (foveated rendering) to bridge the gap. As higher resolutions come to VR power requirements are heading in the wrong direction for PCVR to become mainstream and VR will be reliant on the 1% who own 1180s. 

    Again, that feels more like a "look at the quality, ignore the price" kind of argument.
    I agree that all these new features (and more) will be great for the final deliverable, but wonder if the road to that deliverable needs more focus on what is offered (one-stop solution of high quality), rather than short "standalone" babysteps.

    We are lead to understand that at OC5, the new management team will outline a more "dedicated release schedule" and less time spent on convoluted prototyping, more focused on socialVR (explaining recent departures and new hiring's). For me, the ability for the marketing shy company to get behind defining CV1 and SC will be essential.
    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 3,423 Valuable Player
    Atmos73 said:
    My son is 18 he has a PC if his own but doesn’t have the income like I gave to spend because he’s in full time education. Now he spends most of his time playing 2D games and when I ask about his lack of enthusiasm for VR he puts it down to cost. If he had £500 he wound out that towards a new GPU and continue playing 2D. He doesn’t allow himself to get excited about VR because it’s out of his reach as I expect it is for the 14% who own GTX 1060s.

    For VR to succeed forget about dedicated games that’s a short term fix imo.

    VR needs to find a way (foveated rendering) to bridge the gap. As higher resolutions come to VR power requirements are heading in the wrong direction for PCVR to become mainstream and VR will be reliant on the 1% who own 1180s. 

    Lone echo looks nice but it’s still looks like a five year old game ie, no better than Alien Isolation 2014 which is vastly superior. 

    Until the gap between 2D and VR shrinks mass adoption of PCVR will never be a thing. 


    give it time, it will get there :)
    of course 2D gaming will improve as well.... 2D will probably always look better in still screenshots because it is a moving target and is "easier" to get right  but just like home gaming started with the speccy (it did for me anyway) in 1982 and looked objectively pretty poor, it didnt stop it catching on.

    We ar at the start of an entire new gaming *** technology, Rome was not built in a day

    ***VR can be far more than just gaming, but for me it is what holds 90% of my interest hence my bias.
    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 769
    3Jane
    edited July 12
    Atmos73 said:
    My son is 18 he has a PC if his own but doesn’t have the income like I gave to spend because he’s in full time education. Now he spends most of his time playing 2D games and when I ask about his lack of enthusiasm for VR he puts it down to cost. If he had £500 he wound out that towards a new GPU and continue playing 2D. He doesn’t allow himself to get excited about VR because it’s out of his reach as I expect it is for the 14% who own GTX 1060s.

    For VR to succeed forget about dedicated games that’s a short term fix imo.

    VR needs to find a way (foveated rendering) to bridge the gap. As higher resolutions come to VR power requirements are heading in the wrong direction for PCVR to become mainstream and VR will be reliant on the 1% who own 1180s. 

    Lone echo looks nice but it’s still looks like a five year old game ie, no better than Alien Isolation 2014 which is vastly superior. 

    Until the gap between 2D and VR shrinks mass adoption of PCVR will never be a thing. 



     One of my concerns is that it's incredibly hard to show people, who don't know much about VR, what it feels like to experience VR. A great example is Moss - the trailer looks really bad and boring - some of my friends (who do not own a VR headset) don't understand how a game with such boring graphics can get several 100% ratings. 
    But everything changes when you put on the headset. It's like a magic portal and it's close to impossible to use a 2D video to show off VR. 

    I guess it's like showing a 2D video about an Omnimax Theater featuring IMAX Dome technology - on an old 14" black-white telly - and then expecting that now we all know exactly how it feels to watch a movie in an Omnimax Theater featuring IMAX Dome technology. 

    It's really a great problem not being able to communicate VR experiences using 2D presentations - and yes, Lone Echo may look like a game from 2014 in a 2D trailer - but wait until you put on the headset and the magic starts.
    Intel i7 7700K (4.2-4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS (Home/OEM); Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling at 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR" ;-)
  • Atmos73Atmos73 Posts: 3,128 Valuable Player
    I don’t need convincing I’m sold on VR and wouldn’t go back to 2D I’m just trying to analyse why the other 99% of Steam users haven’t bought a VR HMD after 2 year of launch and why some might find 2D more attractive.

    There is one 2D I’m interested in though - GTFO.

    https://store.steampowered.com/app/493520/GTFO/
    DK2 owner - Vive owner - Pimax 8k backer - Waiting for Knuckles on Valve time.
  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 3,423 Valuable Player
    that looks like it is right in my wheelhouse!!!!!
    good spot.
    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 5,175 Power Poster
    Atmos73 said:
    I don’t need convincing I’m sold on VR and wouldn’t go back to 2D I’m just trying to analyse why the other 99% of Steam users haven’t bought a VR HMD after 2 year of launch and why some might find 2D more attractive.

    There is one 2D I’m interested in though - GTFO.

    https://store.steampowered.com/app/493520/GTFO/

    You'll see mainstream gamers (the people that buy your GTAs, Assassin's Creeds, Far Crys, Fallouts, Elder Scrolls and CoDs for example) buying new GPUs or upgrading/building new machines to run new versions of those popular mainstream gamer franchises during these next few years. That, combined with headsets having eye tracking and dynamic foveated rendering in the not-too-distant future will mean that the current Recommended Spec VR Ready machines will become the new Minimum Spec VR Ready machines (assuming they want to run a 4K headset).

    We're almost at the (imo) price sweet spot for mainstream gamer VR adoption this generation, I put that at $300. This is why I believe that Oculus will continue to manufacture and sell the CV1s for a year after the CV2 has been released.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,341 Volunteer Moderator
    snowdog said:
    We're almost at the (imo) price sweet spot for mainstream gamer VR adoption this generation, I put that at $300. This is why I believe that Oculus will continue to manufacture and sell the CV1s for a year after the CV2 has been released.
    Yeah, I would not be surprised with CV1 being an entry-level VR headset with a further price reduction. I mean Apple sells the iPhone SE which is budget friendly among their more high-endend offerings.

    From what I can see the product offering will be as follows

    Oculus GO $150-$199
    Oculus CV1 $250-$299
    Satna Cruz $299? $350?
    Oculus CV2 $500-$600 (for the first year)

    Mind you it's so hard to tell where SC sits ... it's a mobile+ headset, with mobile internals, could be better?

    Oculus GO $150-$199
    Satna Cruz $299? 
    Oculus CV1 $250-$299
    Oculus CV2 $400-$500 (for the first year)
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    Be kind to one another :)
  • falken76falken76 Posts: 2,576 Valuable Player
    kevinw729 said:
    snowdog said:
    ......
    The VR industry is doing fine, nobody with any sense was expecting VR to go anywhere near mainstream this early and sell truckloads. Oculus themselves made a statement ages ago saying it could take 5-10 years for this to happen.

    A valid point - and for the "majority" of the level headed posters in the VR community that did not buying-in to the Koolaid - VR is doing fine "for them"! They got their PC high-end VR, they have great games, and they have great simulation - and for these Prosumers they can look forward to a consumer sector (as with 3D gaming) that speaks to them and will not be mainstream in a long time, but will support their needs.

    But that was not what was sold to most (and more importantly those that invested to now allow the Prosumers to be happy!); and that is where the resentment stems from from some media and investments. We have to admit that a number of investors and evangelists were sold on the Kickstarter and FB acquisition story of "VR will be big by 2016" - and that this will be a major industry in consumer. As one that was attacked for questioning this back in 2015-16-17 - I think it was a view that more than just a few "with no sense" expected!

    I am typing this from DEVELOP Brighton - a major UK game developer conference, and as an examples a number of the indie development teams that once supported VR development post DK2 have either ended their love affair with VR (2016 there was numerous VR on show - this year four examples!); Or we see the pivoting - why you find a Out-of-Home entertainment specialist invited to a consumer game conference!  B)

    Didn't Mark Zuckerberg make it clear that this was an endeavor he expected to take more than a decade?  I remember him specifically saying that.  I could have sworn he said it, maybe I am wrong, but I could have sworn he said that.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 3,957 Valuable Player

    All those prices look good tbh.


    I'd just like to see Nvidia (& AMD) catch up a little on their generational updates for CV2 adopters and the corresponding price drops in current cards for CV1 adopters (other manufacturers headsets are available).


    The GPU updates are lagging a bit & they're vital ingredient for the PCVR adopters who haven't yet...erm… adopted.

    Gateway 2000, Pentium II 300 Mhz CPU, 64Mb RAM, STB Velocity 128 AGP Graphics Card with 4MB SGRAM, 6.4Gb Hard Drive, US Robotics 56.5kbps Internal Modem, 12/24x CDROM Drive, Ensoniq AudioPCI, Windows 95.
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