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The destructive force of GREAT VR games getting mediocre or no reviews

RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 1,517 Valuable Player
edited July 2018 in General
When telling my friends and colleagues that VR is mankind's most impressive invention since the wheel, I keep hearing that many will consider buying a VR headset when great games arrive. I can then tell them about the many awesome VR games, but the problem arises when I have to show some reviews of such great VR games. Often there're no reviews or the authors of VR game reviews seem keen to do their very best bashing most VR games for not being good enough - quite contrary to my experiences.

I know Oculus took great pride getting a top-ranked VR game on Metacritic, and they succeeded with Lone Echo last year. But where do we stand this summer? - Here's today's list of the best PC games, including VR games, from Metacritic (and my friends read such lists):



According to that list there are no games you can't play without a VR headset. The only game on the list you can play in VR is The Forest, but it works in 2D too. If the list is expanded to show all current games, Gunheart also receives 83 points like The Forest, and again you don't need a VR headset to play Gunheart. My friends easily conclude that since there're no VR-only high-ranking games on the Metacritic list, it's because current VR games are of poor quality and VR is something no one truly needs. 

I can't blame them for drawing such conclusions, and even showing 2D trailers don't help much, because you can't communicate the greatness of VR games using a 2D video.

I think it's a great problem that new and awesome VR games don't get good reviews or do not get reviewed at all. Let's take Moss - it's a VR-only game arriving a few months ago:

Moss Metacritic Score for PC: No score due to insufficient number of reviews.
Moss User Score in the Oculus Store: About 96% average. 

There're just 3 Moss reviews for PC VR on Metacritic, scoring the game at 79, 80 or 90 % - which in no way reflects user experiences. And often I see a similar trend. 

The reason behind the few Moss PC reviews are probably that many reviewers reviewed the PS4 version and then didn't want to do another review for PC VR. Thus compared to the 3 reviews for the Rift/Vive version, there're 62 reviews of the PS4 version! Interestingly many reviewers have no problem reviewing different game versions for PS4, XBox One and PC - like Battlefield 1, Fifa 18 and Rise of the Tomb Rader just to name a few titles. Why didn't Moss PC VR get a similar treatment?

This is a great problem - Moss for the Rift and Vive is not the same as the PS4 version; PS4 has no controllers matching the Rift or Vive, and the PS4 has much lower resolution (also when using high levels of super-sampling on the Rift and Vive). But the greatness of Moss PC VR was never communicated to the masses, because there're almost no published reviews of one of the greatest VR games so far - and certainly the best one thus far in 2018!

Another problem of mixing VR and 2D games on Metacritic is to compare apples and oranges, or probably more to compare grapes and watermelons ;-)

To illustrate: Is Subnautica 2D the same as Subnautica VR? Is Elite Dangerous 2D the same as Elite Dangerous VR? I'd personally consider Subnautica VR about 10 times better than Subnautica 2D, even if the VR version does have some problems. So should we rate Subnautica 2D at 10 % and the VR version at 100 % ? Of course this would not be fair, but I'd have no problem rating Subnautica 2D at 65 % and the VR version at 95 %, if we really want to compare apples and oranges - and want to rate both on the same scale. 
I believe that many reviewers rate VR games just as if the games were in 2D. Comparing 2D and VR games, I'd have a hard time rating a 2D game more than 70 % - and that would be for the very best AAA 2D games, while I'd have a hard time rating any high-quality VR game below 90 %. This is due to the fact that VR games are so incredibly more visually impressive and immersive than any 2D game can be - and Touch controllers add a lot to provide a truly unique VR experience. For example I'd have no problem rating a 2D version of Marvel Powers United at maybe 60 %, and to rate the VR version at 90 %, because the immersion - the feeling of being present in the game world - is so much better in VR. 

If reviewers fail to clearly communicate how much better VR games are compared to 2D games, how are persons - who know very little about VR - going to know how much better VR games are compared to 2D games? The current bashing of Marvel Powers United is a great example of this - and it's a great destructive force limiting VR adoption when VR game reviewers constantly criticize gameplay as if a VR game wasn't different from a 2D game. A new VR game which is the best within it's genre - compared to other VR games in the same genre - is per definition the new reference and should carry a rating reflecting that position. - And such a VR game should not carry a rating that reflects a reviewers preference for 2D games in the genre. 

I think it would be great if Oculus representatives could ask Metacritic not to mix 2D and VR games; there are plenty of VR games to support having their own category.
We need to stop comparing apples and oranges. 

Finally we could take a look on the current top three PC games on Metacritic, namely these:

Into the Breach - rated 89 %
 

Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire - rated 88 %


Final Fantasy XV - Windows - rated at 85 %


I do think that some of these games look impressive, but are these games way better than the latest and greatest Rift games? Personally I'd consider the following games so much better; compared to 2D games I'd happily rate Moss at 97 %, Seeking Dawn at 93 % and Marvel Powers United VR at 90 %






Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

"Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
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Comments

  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,172
    Wintermute
    I don't think people look at Metacritic to decide whether to get VR. They watch YouTube videos. 
    The problem with PC VR is that it's much more expensive than a console if you don't already have a beefy PC. 

    The other problem is a lot of people don't like dealing with PCs and I can't blame them. You have to install drivers and deal with settings and problems. 

    Then you have PSVR which lacks the positional tracking and touch controls. 
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 1,517 Valuable Player
    edited July 2018
    MowTin said:
    I don't think people look at Metacritic to decide whether to get VR. They watch YouTube videos. 
    The problem with PC VR is that it's much more expensive than a console if you don't already have a beefy PC. 

    The other problem is a lot of people don't like dealing with PCs and I can't blame them. You have to install drivers and deal with settings and problems. 

    Then you have PSVR which lacks the positional tracking and touch controls. 

     Of course you may be right. My point was more that I think a lot of PC VR games are rated way too low for the quality these games represent and may give people the wrong impression of VR gaming. I was so close to cancel my Marvel Powers United VR game due to several lackluster reviews.
    And then there's the problem that many PC VR games don't get reviewed at all - and thus few persons may know that these games even exist - like Red Matter or Kin (you can't even find Kin on Metacritic - sadly). Hmmm, I think we need a Kin trailer here - it's one of my favorite games on the Rift - and do remember, a 2D video can't show this amazing game!



    I've just copied some of my user reviews from the Oculus Store to Metacritic - got to start somewhere. I've just provided the first user PC VR review for Moss  o:) And also for Seeking Dawn and Robinson The Journey. Got to tell the world that there're real diamonds in the rough; diamonds that shine unlike anything you've ever seen in 2D  B)  

    I do believe that games and apps sell the hardware - like God of War sells PS4, like Forza Horizon 3 sold the XBox One - personally I bought Oculus Rift VR because I wanted to experience Lone Echo. Great reviews are key.
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • falken76falken76 Posts: 2,694 Valuable Player
    Metacritic like anyone else, is going to cater to their audience.  I've shown my VR to alot of people now.  The reactions are usually universal:  "Wow!  This is amazing, I want to get this!".  But I have friends that are well off and friends that live check to check and this is exactly what happens.  The ones that do well and have money like it and a few of them went right out and bought it.  My friends that don't have a lot of disposable income were on board with computer and rift costs, but once I mention the GPU they get confused and immediately turned off at the price, especially because the 1060 6gb is stretching it for them, but they see so much talk about 1080ti's they just resign themselves to believing it is so expensive they'll never in a million years be able to afford it, then they don't care about it when I mention it.  It's out of reach for so many people due to cost and that's hurting VR more than anything. 

    I go to steam for VR game reviews, and Oculus home.

    I'd prefer honest reviews also, so if Marvel really sucks, I'd rather see people mention it so I don't have to find out myself and then wonder what the hell all these 5 star reviewers were smoking and where to get some because it must be potent.  Seriously though, the Marvel game has A LOT of reviews and they're mostly positive, isn't that good?  Or do you want to see them more outside the system?  I know I would so I knew people were reading about it outside of this community.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 1,517 Valuable Player
    edited July 2018
    falken76 said:
     Or do you want to see them more outside the system?  I know I would so I knew people were reading about it outside of this community.

     Yes, I think it's so important to get great reviews outside the system if we want more people to adopt VR - but the reviews I found outside the system were frankly depressing. RoadToVR rated the game 5 out of ten:

    https://www.roadtovr.com/marvel-powers-united-vr-review-oculus-rift/

    Upload VR called the game "A Mighty Missed Opportunity" - rating 6.5/10:

    https://uploadvr.com/marvel-powers-united-vr-review/



    None of these reviews mentioned that it only requires a GTX 1060 to run the game (even 970 may work) - that you've got more impressive arms than in Lone Echo - and that it just may be the best VR co-op so far (ok, singleplayer may be lacking, but Marvel Powers United VR was never focused on singleplayer). 

    Personally I think many official reviews of VR games (=outside the system = the reviews my non-VR friends read) are way too harsh. Chronos has a metascore of 77 %, Robinson 68 %, Edge of Nowhere 71 %, Arizona Sunshine 81 % - fine scores if these were pancake games, but they're not. I'd rate all of these games beyond 90 % (with the latest patches including Touch support).
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 5,359 Valuable Player
    It's just going to take time for VR to catch on. I can't predict how many years, but look how long it took computers to catch on. How many years did people used to say that PC gaming is dying again? Well surprise, surprise, it's hasn't died and I believe it's become even more popular. The thing that's really holding VR back at the moment is the cost of a PC to run it. That will change in time though as things like Graphics card become cheaper. Look how many headsets PSVR sold because people already had a playstation to run it. Not every PC gamer has a Geforce 1080 to run VR great, but Geforce 1080 will be as cheep as chips in a few years times..
  • falken76falken76 Posts: 2,694 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    falken76 said:
     Or do you want to see them more outside the system?  I know I would so I knew people were reading about it outside of this community.

     Yes, I think it's so important to get great reviews outside the system if we want more people to adopt VR - but the reviews I found outside the system were frankly depressing. RoadToVR rated the game 5 out of ten:

    https://www.roadtovr.com/marvel-powers-united-vr-review-oculus-rift/

    Upload VR called the game "A Mighty Missed Opportunity" - rating 6.5/10:

    https://uploadvr.com/marvel-powers-united-vr-review/


    Maybe they really thought the game actually sucked.  It looks repetitive and boring as all hell to me, I'm sure I would feel those ratings are more accurate than the 5 star ratings on Oculus Home.  Even the Oculus reviews largely say "It's repetitive and gets old, this game needs more content" but still rates 5 stars.  That's the general message I keep reading over and over again.  So to me it looks like Oculus Home reviews aren't harsh enough to be considered honest most of the time and external sites are either closer to accurate or too harsh.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 12,969 Valuable Player
    I think a better way to convince friends/family to invest in VR is to go beyond gaming. Show them things like Medium or a VR Movie Theatre. Show them the "learning" experiences and educational classroom software.

    I attended a live concert with front row seats in Oculus GO. None of the video games on Metacritic can touch that greatness!
    :)
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,172
    Wintermute
    edited July 2018
    The obstacles for PCVR buyers:

    • Cost. A good video card costs as much as a console.
    • Complications. Computers are complicated for most people. Installing drivers and dealing with issues.
    • Pixelation. Flat games have better resolution. 
    • Room. You need space for a PC and VR space. 
    • AAA Games. There is not much AAA game content like the $100+ million blockbuster games. 
    VR will only take off once a console is all you need. I'm guessing the PS6 with foveated rendering, positional tracking and wireless HMD. 

    I don't think reviews are a big factor. And I'm not sure VR games deserve better ratting because they're up against games with $100 million budgets and 5 year dev cycles. 

    Can you imagine what Marvel United would be with a $100 mil budget and 5 years of dev time? 
  • Digikid1Digikid1 Posts: 1,672 Valuable Player
    Also depends on what genre the individual user is into. For example I love to play STBC....and hate games like Skyrim and Fallout. My friends can scream and rant about Skyrim to me and I would just tell them that I just don’t care about that genre. And vice versa. 

    I dont trust review sites that much. I only trust my gut instinct. If I look at a trailer and my gut is telling me to stay away or to wait for a 50% sale then I follow it. I do use YouTube or Twitch to view a gameplay vid rather than a review though. They tend to do a hell of a lot better of making a decision for than a review. 


  • BrixmisBrixmis Posts: 2,232 Valuable Player
    edited July 2018
    Back in the days when PC magazines were the main way of learning what new games were coming out and which were worth looking at reviews were king - since the burst of social networking and the like it has been more about word of mouth from friends and internet buddies imho.
    Half the reviews I read about all kinds of games I think are a real load of crap. Even positive ones often get their facts all wrong, so I take all reviews as just one person's opinion - which is really what they are. And it's a person I don't know, to boot.




  • wanoennogswanoennogs Posts: 151
    Art3mis
    Games reviews have nothing to do with good or bad VR sales.  It's nonsense to say people are looking at game review sites and then saying I am not buying a VR headset.  VR headsets can be used for much more than playing games. VR headsets are not a piece of gaming kit.

    The problem VR has until you try it you just can't understand how good VR is. 100% of people including myself  before trying out my Rift didn't have high expectations. Everyone including myself who has tried my Rift has been blow away by it. Even my parents (Dad aged at the time 76 and Mum aged 73)  thought the Rift was amazing.   They need to be finding a way for more people to try VR.  Until you try it you don't know how good VR is.  Maybe they could do more in store demonstrations.to let people see how mazing VR is 

    Another problem VR has is that it is still quite expensive.  To buy a Rift and a PC capable of running it is a big expense for some people.   
  • BrixmisBrixmis Posts: 2,232 Valuable Player
    Certainly left me skint! :D




  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 3,582 Valuable Player
    Personally I would take YouTube video reviews over things like meta critic...and even then not all of them. Find a reviewer who has similar tastes to you and go from there. For instance I quite like Jim sterlings videos BUT I don't necessarily like all of the same games he does, but "worth a buy" Mac usually likes similar stuff to me. For VR quite like vrgamerdude and gamermuscle for the more simmy vr stuff. There are other too mind you.
    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • falken76falken76 Posts: 2,694 Valuable Player
    edited July 2018
    Brixmis said:
    Back in the days when PC magazines were the main way of learning what new games were coming out and which were worth looking at reviews were king - since the burst of social networking and the like it has been more about word of mouth from friends and internet buddies imho.
    Half the reviews I read about all kinds of games I think are a real load of crap. Even positive ones often get their facts all wrong, so I take all reviews as just one person's opinion - which is really what they are. And it's a person I don't know, to boot.

    Yes but I look for consistencies in reviews.  For Example, consistencies in Marvel are a Lack of Content and repetitive gameplay.  That's mentioned over and over and over again.  So that's how I'll interpret reviews, not so much the specifics of one individuals review, but if everyone keeps mentioning the same thing.....  You know the saying If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....

  • falken76falken76 Posts: 2,694 Valuable Player

    Another problem VR has is that it is still quite expensive.  To buy a Rift and a PC capable of running it is a big expense for some people.   

    This for sure!!  My friend just priced out a new computer, it's already at $700 without the GPU or a monitor.  Add $300 if you get a 1060 that people would be led to believe is garbage if you read alot on these enthusiast boards, $700+ if you're mislead into believing that nothing short of a 1080ti will do.  Then $400 for the rift.  That's a tall order especially when they claim the average person in the USA couldn't come up with $600 if an emergency arose.  I don't know how it is in the rest of the world but I suspect it is similar.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 12,969 Valuable Player
    Games reviews have nothing to do with good or bad VR sales.  It's nonsense to say people are looking at game review sites and then saying I am not buying a VR headset.  VR headsets can be used for much more than playing games. VR headsets are not a piece of gaming kit.

    While it would be nice if this were true, sadly it is not. People most certainly do judge VR based on "gaming," which is why I find myself constantly typing up relies online about how... "VR is more than just gaming." Even the movie, Ready Player One, turned the whole of Virtual Reality in to one big game!

    If you look at the history of debates on this forum surrounding VR's growth and mainstream potential, you will see at least 90% of the rhetoric surrounding video games.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • BrixmisBrixmis Posts: 2,232 Valuable Player
    edited July 2018
    Well, regarding price putting people off - the people I am always raving about VR to can easily afford it - they are just skinflints!  Yes, these are the ones who are always saying how much they are looking forward to trying it, but haven't come round to do so in over 2 years I've had it.

    I just say "their loss". But just because people have the money, doesn't mean they are prepared to spend it. So it's not just people being unable to actually afford it. I actually think these people are worried they will get hooked and buy one, but then not have the time to use it as they would like, and so regard it as money wasted.

    PS - and having to stick a box on their heads is also definitely off-putting for many.




  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 1,517 Valuable Player
    edited July 2018
    This thread isn't really about getting my friends to buy VR or about Metacritic, but about how we get more people to adopt VR - and that unjustified bad/mediocre reviews may work against VR adoption. I can understand that some of you disagree, which of course is fine, I greatly appreciate other perspectives and the discussion.  

    "Games reviews have nothing to do with good or bad VR sales.  It's nonsense to say people are looking at game review sites and then saying I am not buying a VR headset. "

    I'm convinced that Oculus does not agree - I think it was mentioned at Oculus Connect 4 in a presentation/speech that it was a milestone for Oculus getting top-ranked reviews for a VR game, which Oculus achieved with Lone Echo. I can remember I thought it was unfair that the Oculus rep didn't mention Rez Infinite, because Rez Infinite received similar awesome reviews; then again Rez Infinite isn't VR-only (and isn't an Oculus exclusive game). I'm with Oculus on this one, great reviews are key (and very bad reviews are definitely not ;-). 

    Carmack spent most of his OC4 talk specifying the importance of optimizing apps and games, especially existing apps and games, to increase quality. So Carmack too believes that great software is key - more here. 



    I'm not writing to argue that we need a new "Lone Echo"-quality killer-app, although it would be nice (note that Carmack does not speak against killer apps in his talk ;-). I'm convinced we have a lot of "killer-apps" already - but most of them have been crippled by - in my mind - unjustified bad or mediocre reviews, which are being read by the masses who may know very little about VR, potentially limiting any urge for them to adopt VR. 

    I also read this:

    "And I'm not sure VR games deserve better ratting because they're up against games with $100 million budgets and 5 year dev cycles."

    This isn't necessarily the main problem. According to Metacritic the current best PC games are:

    1. Into the Breach - rated 89 %
    2. Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire - rated 88 %

    None of these games had a $100 million budget or 5 year dev cycle. In fact "Into the breach" is a low-budget indie game. Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire is crowd funded, the devs wanted litte more than 1 million to make the game, but ended up with 4.4 million (and Pillars of Eternity emerged in 2015, I don't think the devs worked more than max 3 years on the sequel). Thus none of theses games have budgets even close to $100 million. If fact here are some of the top reviews for the low-budget indie game "Into the Breach":




    In short, it certainly doesn't require a $100 million budget to make a great game and get great reviews. 

    This game also just arrived getting an incredibly high Metascore of 88 - it really doesn't look like $100 million and 5 year development, right?



    Actually I don't think we need more killer Rift games - we have a ton - unfortunately Rift VR games get close to no attention from reviewers and often get mediocre reviews. Such non-existent reviews or unjustified bad reviews got my blood pressure so high I just had to start this thread ;-)

    Here's a (fun?) comparison:

    TOP 5 CURRENT PC NON-VR GAMES BY METASCORE:

    Into the Breach - 55 reviews - metascore 89.
    Pillars of Eternity 2 - 67 reviews - metascore 88.
    Final Fantasy XV - 28 reviews - metascore 85.
    Dark Souls Remasted - 8 reviews - metascore 84.
    Frostpunk - 65 reviews - metascore 84. 

    And here are some VR games to compare - also published in 2018:

    Beat Saber - 2 reviews - too few reviews to generate metascore.
    Moss - 3 reviews - too few reviews to generate metascore.
    Red Matter - 2 reviews - too few reviews to generate metascore.
    Psychonauts in the Rhombus of Ruin - 3 reviews - too few reviews to generate metascore.
    Seeking Dawn - 7 reviews - metascore 69. 

    And some older VR-only games, where reviewers have had 6+ months or even years to write a review:

    Robinson: The Journey - 2 reviews - too few reviews to generate metascore.
    The Invisible Hours - 3 reviews - too few reviews to generate metascore.
    Serious Sam VR: The last hope - 2 reviews - too few reviews to generate metascore.
    Landfall - 1 review - too few reviews to generate metascore.
    Chronos - 13 reviews - metascore 77. 
    Wilson's Heart - 10 reviews - metascore 79. 
    Mage's Tale - 12 reviews - metascore 72 (Thanks to VRFocus for rating this game 100 % - I couldn't agree more, ok maybe 96 % is more appropriate, it isn't Lone Echo ;-)
    Edge of Nowhere - 11 reviews - metascore 71.
    Lucky's Tale - 12 reviews - metascore 64. 

    Maybe Lucky's Tale is 64/100 to some; to me it's a solid 95 %, I truly love that game - especially using SS 2.0; Mario is so dead - long live Lucky! ;-) All the kids trying Lucky's Tale in our house completely agree - Mario is so dead :-)
    I even tried to play some Rise of the Tomb Raider and Battlefield 1, all settings maxed running 60+ fps, to see if I was missing something - but having been exposed to VR such AAA 2D games couldn't interest me for long, I've really lost any motivation for playing pancake games.

    To sum up - either the most awesome VR games get close to no reviews - or they get mediocre or even bad reviews, I really don't understand why. And I think it's a great problem (as mentioned above). 

    Maybe I should have called this thread "Why do awesome VR games get no or so many mediocre reviews - and what are the consequences?"  ;)

    BTW, currently Lone Echo has 14 reviews and a metascore of 89 - I guess that's fair enough...
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • BrixmisBrixmis Posts: 2,232 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    This thread isn't really about getting my friends to buy VR
    But there isn't much else that we, here, can actually do or speak about who is or isn't buying VR gear.

    What those promoting it commercially can or will do is beyond our control and has been discussed at length on many forums - including this one. Doesn't change anything, though, as I don't think anyone expects it to.




  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 1,517 Valuable Player
    Brixmis said:
    RuneSR2 said:
    This thread isn't really about getting my friends to buy VR
    But there isn't much else that we, here, can actually do or speak about who is or isn't buying VR gear.

    What those promoting it commercially can or will do is beyond our control and has been discussed at length on many forums - including this one. Doesn't change anything, though, as I don't think anyone expects it to.
    True, of course we can try to promote VR locally to our best efforts; I don't know how much it'll work on a larger scale. I can't even convince my friends to get a 1080 or better, although they really need it and easily can afford it. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 1,517 Valuable Player
    edited July 2018
    "Games reviews have nothing to do with good or bad VR sales.  It's nonsense to say people are looking at game review sites and then saying I am not buying a VR headset. "

    I'm convinced that Oculus does not agree - I think it was mentioned at Oculus Connect 4 in a presentation/speech that it was a milestone for Oculus getting top-ranked reviews for a VR game, which Oculus achieved with Lone Echo. I can remember I thought it was unfair that the Oculus rep didn't mention Rez Infinite, because Rez Infinite received similar awesome reviews; then again Rez Infinite isn't VR-only (and isn't an Oculus exclusive game). I'm with Oculus on this one, great reviews are key (and very bad reviews are definitely not ;-). 

     Found it - now tell me that you don't think Oculus cares about reviews - and especially reviews on Metacritic  B)



    It took me more than one hour to find that quote  :s - I need a medal for this! And a cold beer!  :D

    Source - jump to 1:22:00 (it's an OC4 speech by Jason Rubin - Oculus' vice president of content)


    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • BrixmisBrixmis Posts: 2,232 Valuable Player
    It took me more than one hour to find that quote  s - I need a medal for this! And a cold beer!  D


    ...and a shrink? :D




  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 5,824 Valuable Player
    I must confess to not writing that many reviews so far. I keep on meaning to do more but I just haven't got around to it yet. :blush:
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 5,359 Valuable Player
    Into the Breach looks shite..
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 12,969 Valuable Player
    edited July 2018
    RuneSR2 said:
    True, of course we can try to promote VR locally to our best efforts; I don't know how much it'll work on a larger scale. I can't even convince my friends to get a 1080 or better, although they really need it and easily can afford it. 

    Agreed. This type of conversation is important. While some people may be limited in their ability to expand intellectual discourse, I think a lot of what you have addressed is meaningful. Open discussion about these things is beneficial.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 3,582 Valuable Player
    I gotta admit I think the whole no killer apps for vr is long since not true. 
    We have pure vr games like lone echo, moss, Robinson journey, flat screen with vr like elite D, pCARS2, fallout, and from tomorrow hellblade. We have edutainment experiences like Apollo 11, hybrid game/educational like lunar flight, social stuff like rec room and then media stuff to watch movies at a cinema. 
    Imo the only things that need to improve to increase adoption is the quality of the experience and the cost of entry. Both of these will be fixed in time. Till then we just need to keep showing those still interested. I know I have sold at least 4 rifts, 1 vive and 1 go since showing mine off
    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 1,517 Valuable Player
    edited September 2018
    I gotta admit I think the whole no killer apps for vr is long since not true. 
    We have pure vr games like lone echo, moss, Robinson journey, flat screen with vr like elite D, pCARS2, fallout, and from tomorrow hellblade. We have edutainment experiences like Apollo 11, hybrid game/educational like lunar flight, social stuff like rec room and then media stuff to watch movies at a cinema. 
    Imo the only things that need to improve to increase adoption is the quality of the experience and the cost of entry. Both of these will be fixed in time. Till then we just need to keep showing those still interested. I know I have sold at least 4 rifts, 1 vive and 1 go since showing mine off

    Love that you mentioned Robinson. As time goes by this game could easily just be forgotten. Maybe it's worth mentioning that Robinson easily qualifies as an AAA title, and it's so much better on the Rift than PS4:

    "No one knows how to better eek out gorgeous graphics from CryEngine than Crytek themselves, the company who built the engine and developed Robinson: The Journey atop it. As far as VR games go, Robinson is easily in the top five best looking VR games made yet, bringing a feel of AAA quality to the VR content landscape. 
    And, if you’re playing on Rift, you may be able to make it look even better. In the game’s Settings menu, a new Graphics option (not present on the PSVR version) lets you toggle Resolution Scale, Shadow Quality, SSDO Quality, Anti-aliasing, and Distant Object Quality.
    While the default options are set to allow the game to run great on hardware that meets Oculus’ recommended spec, those of you with more capable PC hardware will be able push the games graphics even further.
    The Resolution Scale option is going to make perhaps the biggest difference. This effectively ‘supersamples’ the game, rendering each frame at a higher resolution, and then downsamples to fit the Rift’s display. This results in sharper edges thanks to finer data available during anti-aliasing. The difference between the 1.0x and 2.0x options is significant.
    With the rest of the settings maxed out (testing on the Exemplar 2 with a GTX 1080), the game’s lush world and high quality lightning really pushes the graphical bar for VR games, giving you what feels like a ‘AAA’ visual experience."
    Source: https://www.roadtovr.com/robinson-the-journey-oculus-rift-graphics-settings-visuals/

    I could not agree more - using SS 2.0 and all settings maxed nothing beats the graphics in Robinson. It looks and plays exactly like this in 90 fps (ok, maybe I'm down to 45 fps here and there, but I don't notice it - and yes, you do get to explore the jungle and so much more):





    Then again, who wants to play a low-ranking VR game like Robinson (where you even can scratch a real longneck's nose - and truly be in "Jurassic World" for the first time ever) - when you can get this potential game-of-the-year-2018 instead?




    I stopped laughing at Celeste's incredibly poor graphics when I saw the reviews:


    PC - 17 reviews - metascore 88 (= the second highest ranked PC game this year).
    XBox One = 9 reviews - metascore 94 (by far the highest ranked XBox One game this year!).
    PS4 - 7 reviews - metascore 91 (this year only God of War got better reviews on the PS4).
    Switch - 34 reviews - metascore 92 (= highest rated game on Switch this year!).


    It does look like an awesome game - for my Commodore 64, ok maybe more for my Amiga 500 (I've still got that machine <3 ), but I've moved on since the late 80s and early 90s. The take home message: VR game devs do not need to outperform 2D AAA games with $100 million+ budgets, they "just" need to outperform Celeste  ;)  BTW, if reviewers appreciate Celeste's graphics (and they do!) I'm going to get really mad if those reviewers ever complain about the Rift's SDE and resolution :D  


    It only took 2 years to develop Celeste - and it's a low budget indie game. (Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/NintendoSwitch/comments/7tuubc/hey_were_the_dev_team_behind_celeste_ask_us/


    Now I could continue with the 2D low-budget indie game Iconoclasts (21 reviews, metascore 87), but I can feel my blood pressure is already getting way too high, I better stop here ;)

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • BrixmisBrixmis Posts: 2,232 Valuable Player
    edited July 2018
    I actually feel I did my bit on promoting VR - which I can't say about much else. When I got my Rift I made dozens of 3D SBS videos for my YT channel using D3DGear, which records directly from the Rift (not the monitor). Most were flight sims but I also posted experiments in popular games with VorpX or TriDef.

    I was never good (nor did I ever intend to be) at the waffle on vids and knew I'd never have one of these channels with thousands of subs etc (always been hopeless at small talk etc) - that would make me spend too much time on it instead of the stuff I really wanted to do - which was enjoying my VR apps and games. It takes a lot of time and effort to edit videos to a state where people will watch it and not go away after 30 seconds.

    I was very encouraged when someone made a derogatory comment about me posting 3D SBS videos instead of standard pancake ones and someone else responded, telling them to bugger off, because this was the only way people without VR could get any idea of what it was like and asked me to keep uploading them.

    The reason I bought the Rift myself was after watching many videos in 3D SBS on a phone with Google Cardboard. That's why I chose to do that when I got the Rift. It was really pleasing to see others getting that benefit from the vids I was uploading.

    Since then I feel things have changed a lot. Mt YT channel was deleted when I closed my Google+ profile, and though I've started another channel, I have no intention of doing what I did last time. People know about VR now and they have their perceptions of what it's like and I don't think posting 3D SBS videos will actually help persuade the ones who are skeptical any more. Mostly because I feel it will affirm their negative view of things such as resolution. All of the players that show videos in 3D that I have come across so far show the video at a worse resolution than is actually seen in the Rift.
    So, If they think it has crap res and is not worth buying because of that, watching one of those flight sim 3D SBS videos will only confirm to them that they are right.

    This makes me feel kind of hopeless as far as promoting the Rift is concerned. I see people dissing it on Steam and game forums and I want to post and say "you're talking crap - it's nowhere near as bad as you say" or "...it's not going down the chute already..." but I think I'd be wasting my time - especially when said persons are well known "characters" of those forums and actually should know better, but probably just like to think they know it all or like to cause a stir. So I don't bother responding any more (except when I know for certain others will back me up).

    That's a big issue for the promotion of VR imo - the know-alls of the internet spouting drivel about VR and people taking it as gospel. Until we have a way that can demonstrate it unequivocally, these people will have their stage to cast doubt and disdain on it.




  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 3,582 Valuable Player
    edited July 2018
    deleted
    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 1,517 Valuable Player
    edited July 2018
    It seems that Oculus is indeed focused on new killer apps:

    Stormland,” the next virtual reality game from the studio behind “Ratchet & Clank” and the upcoming “Spider-Man” game, is an open-world, narratively-driven first-person game that drops you into the rusting body of an android gardener out to save its world.
    “The Oculus game is also the sort of seachange title that could completely alter the way people view virtual reality gaming, Oculus VP of content Jason Rubin told Variety. This is one title that could encourage people to come onto the platform,” he said. “This is a title that could radically change their view of the platform.

    Source: https://variety.com/2018/gaming/features/stormland-insomniac-vr-1202831285/




    Maybe Chronos, Edge of Nowhere and Robinson: The Journey should have been relaunched as "remastered" editions after getting Touch control support in order to get new reviews like Dark Souls Remasted  ;) There was - I think - a 7 GB patch for Edge of Nowhere some months ago (similarly a 15 GB patch was released for Mage's Tale), I'm quite sure textures got improved. 


    Much has happened in 2 years, and many have upgraded video cards. Abilities to use high levels of super-sampling, full locomotion support (also in Mage's Tale), improved textures (Mage's Tale and Edge of Nowhere) are turning several older games into gold; it's just a shame the world knows nothing about these changes.

    Just copied another Rift review to Metacritic - I wonder how many 10s I can give before they kick me out  :D Then again, I only give 10 if I think it should be a 10...  ;)



    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
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