New to the forums? Click here to read the "How To" Guide.

Developer? Click here to go to the Developer Forums.

Has anyone noticed that blacks are no longer true black?

LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,774 Volunteer Moderator
I have been playing some dark games recently and noticed that the blacks are not true black anymore, years ago I managed to get true blacks with turning the SPUD off but now it seems to be back. It's that strange greyish grain that seems to be stuck onto the lens. I only just noticed it after wondering some dark dungeons.
Core i7-7700k @ 4.9 Ghz | 32 GB DDR4 Corsair Vengeance @ 3000Mhz | 2x 1TB Samsung Evo | 2x 4GB WD Black
ASUS MAXIMUS IX HERO | MSI AERO GTX 1080 OC @ 2000Mhz | Corsair Carbide Series 400C White (RGB FTW!) 

Be kind to one another :)

Comments

  • TwoHedWlfTwoHedWlf Posts: 2,234 Valuable Player
    So, check spud?
  • WildtWildt Posts: 2,252 Valuable Player
    Deffo!

    Recently it's given me grief in both Form and Robinson. It annoyed me enough to try figure out if something was wrong with my setup/settings, but then I quickly noticed that during loading screens and in-game menus etc. there were true blacks, so I left it with the conclusion that it was a design choice to minimize black smear.

    In Robinson it was particularly bad in the "Graveyard" section of the map, and in several of the dark intersections between the open areas.

    I also remember telling the Samson who made the Doom3 mod, that his latest update had ruined the blacks. Turns out some parts of the game just had better blacks than others. It's like there was some sort of global gamma setting that was knocked up in certain parts of the game.
    PCVR: CV1 || 4 sensors || TPcast wireless adapter || MamutVR Gun stock V3
    PSVR: PS4 Pro || Move Controllers || Aim controller
    WMR: HP Reverb
  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,774 Volunteer Moderator
    edited August 2018
    TwoHedWlf said:
    So, check spud?

     I have tried turning it on or off with little difference, flushing the spud file or trying to regenerate the mash, no difference.
    Core i7-7700k @ 4.9 Ghz | 32 GB DDR4 Corsair Vengeance @ 3000Mhz | 2x 1TB Samsung Evo | 2x 4GB WD Black
    ASUS MAXIMUS IX HERO | MSI AERO GTX 1080 OC @ 2000Mhz | Corsair Carbide Series 400C White (RGB FTW!) 

    Be kind to one another :)
  • LuluViBritanniaLuluViBritannia Posts: 523
    Neo
    I did notice it, but only during launch. In-game the blacks are alright on my side.
    Whatever went wrong, this is definitely due to the firmware update. Maybe try reinstalling it?
    Current VR results imo:
    - Great small apps. Great ports of bigger games.
    - Great VR-specific features. Not enough showcased!!!
    - Too many actors in the industry, the market is totally broken.


    My hopes for VR next gen:

    - Better ratio between visual quality and power needs. No more godrays and less SDE.
    - Full Body Tracking.


    "If you don't mind, do you want me to take you there? Where dreams come true."
  • WildtWildt Posts: 2,252 Valuable Player
    I did notice it, but only during launch. In-game the blacks are alright on my side.
    Whatever went wrong, this is definitely due to the firmware update. Maybe try reinstalling it?
    Makes no sense that a firmware should only produce poor blacks in CERTAIN parts of the same game.
    PCVR: CV1 || 4 sensors || TPcast wireless adapter || MamutVR Gun stock V3
    PSVR: PS4 Pro || Move Controllers || Aim controller
    WMR: HP Reverb
  • JD-UKJD-UK Posts: 2,367 Valuable Player
    Having no problems with blacks in Elite: Dangerous.




  • LuluViBritanniaLuluViBritannia Posts: 523
    Neo
    @Wildt : Meh, nothing surprises me anymore when it comes to glitches xD. I stand my point : reinstalling the software may erase the problems.
    Current VR results imo:
    - Great small apps. Great ports of bigger games.
    - Great VR-specific features. Not enough showcased!!!
    - Too many actors in the industry, the market is totally broken.


    My hopes for VR next gen:

    - Better ratio between visual quality and power needs. No more godrays and less SDE.
    - Full Body Tracking.


    "If you don't mind, do you want me to take you there? Where dreams come true."
  • MAC_MAN86MAC_MAN86 Posts: 2,262
    Wintermute
    Are you using an NVIDIA card and set it to Full Dynamic Range?
    This gets reset after any graphic or major OS update.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,280 Valuable Player
    edited August 2018
    I just checked The Blu - Luminous Abyss, it's the blackest app I can think of ;-) - In that app it's easy to see that blacks are no longer true black. There's a clear gray pixel cloud where it should be true black. 

    Now, I don't feel like straining my nice relationship with Oculus support, I vote for LZoltowski to submit the ticket!!  ;)

    My thought was that maybe Oculus engineers made the gray filter to reduce God rays, but I really would love to get those beautiful OLED blacks back. The ability to show true black is one of the main advantages of OLED: if someone from Oculus read this, please give us back the true black! (Or let us know if we're imagining things - but I don't think we are) 

    But do try The Blu - Luminous Abyss - am I alone here? 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,701 Volunteer Moderator

    I noticed a mottled grey recently appeared when pausing Fallout 4 in a very dark scene, with the pause menu present. Wasn't sure if it was there before and I just hadn't noticed but may be the same thing, the mottling is static so moves with the headset and not part of the scene, is this what you guys have?


    Never noticed it before in any game and never needed to fiddle with my spud. Not really an issue as that's the only time I notice it. But still, shouldn't really be there.

    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v1903 (18363.720)
  • WildtWildt Posts: 2,252 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    My thought was that maybe Oculus engineers made the gray filter to reduce God rays
    God rays will still be present with white on very dark grey. Black smear however will be gone. The OLED pixels are simply very slow at coming out of true BLACK, where they are essentially turned off.
    PCVR: CV1 || 4 sensors || TPcast wireless adapter || MamutVR Gun stock V3
    PSVR: PS4 Pro || Move Controllers || Aim controller
    WMR: HP Reverb
  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 2,121 Valuable Player
    edited August 2018
    I followed this reddit thread a few months ago and it completely cleared my grey veil problems with X-Plane 11 night flying;

    https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/6tca7t/why_you_may_need_to_disable_spud_oled_mura/

    Since the new 1.29 update w/firmware I have not noticed any diffs.  Still looks great to me.  After the update I did try enabling it again and to see if the update would make any diff.  It did not (grey veil reappeared) so I went back to disabling it again.

    Custom built gaming desktop; i9 9900k (water cooled) oc to 5ghz, gtx 1080 ti, 32 gb 3000hz ram, 1 tb ssd, 4 tb hdd.  Asus  ROG Maximus xi hero wifi mb, StarTech 4 port/4 controller sata powered usb3.0 pcie card, Asus VG248QE 1080p 144hz gaming monitor, Oculus Rift cv1 w/2x sensors, Vive Pro w/2.0 base stations/controllers, Quest w/Link and VD wireless (good/close 5Ghz wifi and PC with Ethernet cable to my Router).

  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,280 Valuable Player
    edited August 2018
    Wildt said:
    The OLED pixels are simply very slow at coming out of true BLACK, where they are essentially turned off.

    I don't think I understand this - OLED is among the fastest displays ever built (microseconds response times, not milliseconds), although plasma may be even faster (some claim nanoseconds response times for some plasma screens) - so OLED's response times may be an incredible 1,000 times faster than LCD/LED, and I'm not sure how to read "OLED pixels being slow at coming out of true black". More here:

    "OLEDs also have a much faster response time than an LCD. Using response time compensation technologies, the fastest modern LCDs can reach response times as low as 1 ms for their fastest color transition, and are capable of refresh frequencies as high as 240 Hz. According to LG, OLED response times are up to 1,000 times faster than LCD,[73] putting conservative estimates at under 10 μs (0.01 ms), which could theoretically accommodate refresh frequencies approaching 100 kHz (100,000 Hz)." 
    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLED

    The ability to show true black (pixels turned off) and an incredibly fast response time may be the main advantages of OLED - and OLED is thin and has very low power consumption. 

    I don't think the "gray fog" (instead of true black) I've experienced in some titles has anything to do with OLED having trouble to show true black (or coming out of true black), simply because the pixels aren't turned off - they're turned on showing a gray kind of mist, but of course you could be right that it's a design choice. 

    PS. This is a nice read too regarding how incredibly fast OLED (and plasma and good old CRT) screens are - and why OLED is awesome for VR:

    "In contrast to LCD displays, plasma televisions, good old CRT TVs, and the latest OLED TVs have a virtually instantaneous pixel response time that is a thousand times faster than that of the fastest LCDs. This is mainly limited by the speed of the video processing engine rather than by the time it takes to fire the display phosphor or switch on the OLED sub-pixel material; this is in the order of a few hundred nano-seconds as against the milliseconds required for the liquid crystals to change state in LCD panels."
    Source: https://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/lcd-response-time.html
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • MAC_MAN86MAC_MAN86 Posts: 2,262
    Wintermute
    But are you using an NVIDIA card and set it to Full Dynamic Range?
    This gets reset after any graphic or major OS update.
  • WildtWildt Posts: 2,252 Valuable Player
    edited August 2018
    @RuneSR2- some googling on the subject "oled black smear" should reveal how common the problem is on various OLED displays, and how  devs are using tricks to avoid it.

    The pixels on an OLED display are indeed quick at coming from any value other than zero, to any value. But if a pixel gets the value zero, it will actually TURN OFF, and it takes quite a long time to turn back on. The result is called black smear.

    Here's a little write up: http://doc-ok.org/?p=1082
    PCVR: CV1 || 4 sensors || TPcast wireless adapter || MamutVR Gun stock V3
    PSVR: PS4 Pro || Move Controllers || Aim controller
    WMR: HP Reverb
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,280 Valuable Player
    Wildt said:
    @RuneSR2- some googling on the subject "oled black smear" should reveal how common the problem is on various OLED displays, and how  devs are using tricks to avoid it.

    The pixels on an OLED display are indeed quick at coming from any value other than zero, to any value. But if a pixel gets the value zero, it will actually TURN OFF, and it takes quite a long time to turn back on. The result is called black smear.

    Here's a little write up: http://doc-ok.org/?p=1082

    Thanks Wildt for the interesting link. My OLED experiences (other than Rift) are primarily from TVs where I haven't noticed that problem, but maybe I have not looked hard enough. And of course Rift OLED may not exactly be similar to a large LG OLED TV. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • WildtWildt Posts: 2,252 Valuable Player
    edited August 2018
    @RuneSR2 - it's really obvious if you manage to turn of all compensating hocus pocus (like the technique described in the article) and then run an app that outputs true blacks, like the "Lost" experience. 

    Rotate your head left and right while staring at something bright, and notice the dark shimmering edges on said bright object.

    Or the other way around - a very bright scene with a few true black things on it. For instance the startup screens  in Robo Recall.

    I'm unsure if disabling SPUD is enough to let the apps output "untouched" to the panel anymore. 
    PCVR: CV1 || 4 sensors || TPcast wireless adapter || MamutVR Gun stock V3
    PSVR: PS4 Pro || Move Controllers || Aim controller
    WMR: HP Reverb
  • Digikid1Digikid1 Posts: 2,195 Valuable Player
    I've noticed it while playing In Death last night.  While looking up in the ceiling in a hallway I used to be able to see the rafters and ceiling correctly.....for some reason yesterday it was all blotchy and grey.  Could be due to the 1.30 update but I am not sure.
  • WildtWildt Posts: 2,252 Valuable Player
    edited August 2018
    Digikid1 said:
    I've noticed it while playing In Death last night.  While looking up in the ceiling in a hallway I used to be able to see the rafters and ceiling correctly.....for some reason yesterday it was all blotchy and grey.  Could be due to the 1.30 update but I am not sure.
    Well, what you see THERE is what happens when you try to AVOID black smear by not displaying true blacks ;)

    EDIT: I now realize that you probably weren't replying to my last post, but the OP's post instead

    My bad :blush:
    PCVR: CV1 || 4 sensors || TPcast wireless adapter || MamutVR Gun stock V3
    PSVR: PS4 Pro || Move Controllers || Aim controller
    WMR: HP Reverb
  • Digikid1Digikid1 Posts: 2,195 Valuable Player
    Well it was working fine a couple days ago. Nothing has changed except for the 1.30 update. 
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,280 Valuable Player
    edited August 2018
    TwoHedWlf said:
    So, check spud?

     I have tried turning it on or off with little difference, flushing the spud file or trying to regenerate the mash, no difference.

    I spent some time investigating this issue last night and I've come up with the same solutions you've already tried - deactivating SPUD in the Registry or deleting spud or mash files - and it seems it might help some persons while other persons don't see any benefit or get tint problems. Also most of the persons getting positive results posted their results more than 6 months ago - before the latest firmware and 1.29+ updates.  

    BTW I found and liked this explanation:

    "The default software settings for the Oculus CV1 remap the color space so that areas that should be a deep black instead are displayed at a higher brightness level. Because of this remapping, a black image may not produce complete darkness and near-black objects may lose their shading. The effect is less noticeable in a scene with bright and flat illumination, and it may not be noticeable in many applications. But for the types of imagery we use, this remapping can be annoying. 

    The remapping may have been done as an attempt at a software fix for an optical problem. In the CV1 model, Oculus switched to using a partial fresnel lens design, which reduced weight and improved focus at the perimeter of the display. Fresnel lenses have problems with lens flare, which is even more apparent in the full fresnel used on the HTC Vive. Reducing contrast ratio decreases the visibility of the flares. Oculus apparently decided that reducing the flares was more important than having a full color range, so they ship the CV1 using the compressed color space by default.

    The ideal solution would be to allow the applications running over the HMD to control the remapping, so that the developers could pick the optimum trade-offs for their scenes. The reasons why Oculus does not allow this are not clear - perhaps they did not trust their developers to make good decisions or they did not want to adjust their GPU code at the whim of the apps using their service. 

    Instead, their support staff provides a "spud remover" to customers who complain which sets a registry value that is read when the service starts and can disable the color remapping."
    Source: http://visualmusicsystems.com/oculushelp.htm

    So anyone got a SPUD remover from Oculus support?  :)  B) - Then again, it sounds just like a program to change the Registry value, which LZoltowski said doesn't help anymore. 

    Maybe it's just me being naive, but I can't help thinking that Oculus engineers wouldn't have enabled SPUD if it wasn't necessary. I notice the problem a lot in dark screens/scenes, but my mash and spud files were generated a year ago, maybe I've got the problem for months and didn't really notice it. But like a scratch on the new car you've just bought, when first you've noticed the scratch you can't forget it or take your eyes off it...  :#  

    Maybe I should contact my new friend at Oculus support - it seems that the paid Oculus supporters are being very quiet in this thread - although I bet they are reading what we're writing in this thread and that they aren't strangers to the issue we're discussing ;)
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • WildtWildt Posts: 2,252 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    The remapping may have been done as an attempt at a software fix for an optical problem. In the CV1 model, Oculus switched to using a partial fresnel lens design, which reduced weight and improved focus at the perimeter of the display. Fresnel lenses have problems with lens flare, which is even more apparent in the full fresnel used on the HTC Vive. Reducing contrast ratio decreases the visibility of the flares. Oculus apparently decided that reducing the flares was more important than having a full color range, so they ship the CV1 using the compressed color space by default.
    I don't buy that as the main reason for the remapping - it's OLED black smear. You still get nasty god rays with white on remapped blacks.
    PCVR: CV1 || 4 sensors || TPcast wireless adapter || MamutVR Gun stock V3
    PSVR: PS4 Pro || Move Controllers || Aim controller
    WMR: HP Reverb
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,280 Valuable Player
    Wildt said:
    RuneSR2 said:
    The remapping may have been done as an attempt at a software fix for an optical problem. In the CV1 model, Oculus switched to using a partial fresnel lens design, which reduced weight and improved focus at the perimeter of the display. Fresnel lenses have problems with lens flare, which is even more apparent in the full fresnel used on the HTC Vive. Reducing contrast ratio decreases the visibility of the flares. Oculus apparently decided that reducing the flares was more important than having a full color range, so they ship the CV1 using the compressed color space by default.
    I don't buy that as the main reason for the remapping - it's OLED black smear. You still get nasty god rays with white on remapped blacks.

    Maybe it reduces the SDE - lately I've not been bothered a lot by the SDE, but maybe I've habituated to the SDE... Are there any other SPUD benefits? 

    And who's up for sending in a ticket? :D Personally I think the grey fog has become too noticeable, I long for some deep black OLED darkness even if it forces me to hug my old SDE foe B)
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • JD-UKJD-UK Posts: 2,367 Valuable Player
    I've been paying particular attention to this since you started the thread and so far, I have no issues.

    The only cases where the blacks don't look convincing to me is where god rays interfere.




  • MAC_MAN86MAC_MAN86 Posts: 2,262
    Wintermute
    But are you using an NVIDIA card and set it to Full Dynamic Range?
    This gets reset after any graphic or major OS update.
  • WildtWildt Posts: 2,252 Valuable Player
    MAC_MAN86 said:
    But are you using an NVIDIA card and set it to Full Dynamic Range?
    This gets reset after any graphic or major OS update.
    Are you just gonna repeat your irrelevant question until someone answers?
    PCVR: CV1 || 4 sensors || TPcast wireless adapter || MamutVR Gun stock V3
    PSVR: PS4 Pro || Move Controllers || Aim controller
    WMR: HP Reverb
  • MAC_MAN86MAC_MAN86 Posts: 2,262
    Wintermute
    Just so long as it is irrelevant I am happy to stop yes ;)
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,280 Valuable Player
    It would be great be with feedback from an Oculus engineer or similar. The grey SPUD fog is really annoying. 

    BTW, of course this post wasn't made to bump this thread, but I just had to share this video  o:) 



    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
Sign In or Register to comment.