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Oculus Connect 5 MEGATHREAD Oculus Quest announced! Join the conversation!

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  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,753 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:
    Oh, I forgot the most important one!!!

    • Oculus will announce that the Santa Cruz new name is the Oculus Harv and all purchases will include a life size naked picture of me wearing nothing but an Oculus Harv.
     :D 
    AWww :( I was hoping it was one of P.L. =/ I guess I will wait till next year
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,493 Valuable Player
    Techy111 said:
    I betcha SC will be 599 ;)

    There's no way that it's going to be THAT expensive. It isn't going to be a powerhouse by ANY means, an 845 at best under the hood and is probably going to have two LCD displays similar to the Oculus Go, probably the same resolution too.

    The extra $200 in cost compared to the Oculus Go (if I'm right about the price) should be covered by the 4 cameras, one extra display and the controllers. I can't see all of that being enough for a price of $599.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,753 Valuable Player
    edited September 2018
    snowdog said:
    Techy111 said:
    I betcha SC will be 599 ;)

    There's no way that it's going to be THAT expensive. It isn't going to be a powerhouse by ANY means, an 845 at best under the hood and is probably going to have two LCD displays similar to the Oculus Go, probably the same resolution too.

    The extra $200 in cost compared to the Oculus Go (if I'm right about the price) should be covered by the 4 cameras, one extra display and the controllers. I can't see all of that being enough for a price of $599.

     Don't forget it also comes with controllers as well - I say 499$ at start with a 50$ drop with in a few months for holiday sells. Agree though - GO at current price 200$ - an 845 (depending on bulk price and whatever price they are setting at) could add another 50$ on top of that making it 250$ - controllers another 50$ making it 300$. Not sure on the cost of camera - but ball part another 75$ to cover cost? So we're at $375 + RD and New tech + markup = $449-499?

    I've seen the Snapdragon 845 with in phones sub $500< - so that tells me it doesn't cost that much now to have one. Considering how much tech is in a phone - I say 75 to 125$ for the chip alone. Go price seems to say it's close to cost so 15 to 20% market up leaves 170 to 160 to take electronics, screen, chassis, and cpu out of. This screams that SC wont cost any more than $499 to me. I almost wanna say 399$ myself, but I think a safer $499 leaves the door open for another technology or add on as well (such as using two screens).
  • Digikid1Digikid1 Posts: 2,204 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:
    Oh, I forgot the most important one!!!

    • Oculus will announce that the Santa Cruz new name is the Oculus Harv and all purchases will include a life size naked picture of me wearing nothing but an Oculus Harv.
     :D 
    *Order CANCELLED*

    I still remember your "X-Ray" Pic.  :D

    I am hoping for a good successor to the rift but with the current design of the controllers and not that crappy new design....yes yes I know that you guys disagree but that will not change my mind about how ugly and breakable they WILL be.  Mark my words on that.
  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,774 Volunteer Moderator
    Digikid1 said:
    snowdog said:
    Oh, I forgot the most important one!!!

    • Oculus will announce that the Santa Cruz new name is the Oculus Harv and all purchases will include a life size naked picture of me wearing nothing but an Oculus Harv.
     :D 
    *Order CANCELLED*

    I still remember your "X-Ray" Pic.  :D

    I am hoping for a good successor to the rift but with the current design of the controllers and not that crappy new design....yes yes I know that you guys disagree but that will not change my mind about how ugly and breakable they WILL be.  Mark my words on that.

     The SC controller? The loop has to be inverted so that the headset cams can see the markers, it would be impossible otherwise.
    Core i7-7700k @ 4.9 Ghz | 32 GB DDR4 Corsair Vengeance @ 3000Mhz | 2x 1TB Samsung Evo | 2x 4GB WD Black
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  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,753 Valuable Player
    edited September 2018
    Digikid1 said:

    I am hoping for a good successor to the rift but with the current design of the controllers and not that crappy new design....yes yes I know that you guys disagree but that will not change my mind about how ugly and breakable they WILL be.  Mark my words on that.
    I think they look sexy still - but why would it matter? Half the time you don't see them anyways. Most games replace them with hands, hooks, or guns lol.

    Just showed my girlfriend the SC preview and she was "WOA! AWESOME AF!" She really wants to get it to start drawing:) 
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,019 Valuable Player
    edited September 2018
    SC a great price would be $399, but I reckon it's going to be $499 next year. I think it's CV2 announcement in the next couple of days..

    Edit: I'm wrong by the looks of things.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,710 Volunteer Moderator

    Nvidia has shrivelled my predictions muscle all up. Luckily my excitability muscle is still very much active so will be watching Messrs Carmack and Zuckerberg's keynote whilst exercising that muscle. That sounded weird.

    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v1903 (18363.720)
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,311 Valuable Player
    edited September 2018
    In my mind only the CV2 might be able to live up to the hype-inducing e-mail, "next era of VR" surely can't be the SC... It has to be some Vive Pro butt-spanking device! 


    Besides that I like to be on a leash, it keeps me from wandering off to places where no man should ever be ;)
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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • LuluViBritanniaLuluViBritannia Posts: 523
    Neo
    edited September 2018
    @snowdog

    • CV2 will continue to use the Constellation tracking system because Inside out tracking isn't good enough for high-end PC VR.
    Why would they keep external tracking if they pull it off with Santa Cruz tracking? Also, I won't have this conversation again but I'll just say this : inside-out tracking isn't that bad, it's more user-friendly and Constellation proved to be just as problematic as this. Besides, it will be made-in Oculus, so it should be more efficient than Windows' system.
    Anyway, if Santa Cruz tracking system proves to be efficient, they would definitely take it for CV2.
    User-friendly is the way to go for VR right now, people like simple systems. So let's keep it simple.
    Current VR results imo:
    - Great small apps. Great ports of bigger games.
    - Great VR-specific features. Not enough showcased!!!
    - Too many actors in the industry, the market is totally broken.


    My hopes for VR next gen:

    - Better ratio between visual quality and power needs. No more godrays and less SDE.
    - Full Body Tracking.


    "If you don't mind, do you want me to take you there? Where dreams come true."
  • Hiro_Protag0nistHiro_Protag0nist Posts: 4,978 Valuable Player
    @snowdog

    • CV2 will continue to use the Constellation tracking system because Inside out tracking isn't good enough for high-end PC VR.
    Why would they keep external tracking if they pull it off with Santa Cruz tracking? Also, I won't have this conversation again but I'll just say this : inside-out tracking isn't that bad, it's more user-friendly and Constellation proved to be just as problematic as this. Besides, it will be made-in Oculus, so it should be more efficient than Windows' system.
    Anyway, if Santa Cruz tracking system proves to be efficient, they would definitely take it for CV2.
    User-friendly is the way to go for VR right now, people like simple systems. So let's keep it simple.

    How do i reach for my tablet in Onward with inside-out tracking (it's on my back)?  Grabbing arrows/anything from behind you?  What about tracking other "live" objects?   No, we need to keep external, full room tracking, not just for the big games but for big man-tasks.
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,753 Valuable Player
    edited September 2018
    @snowdog

    • CV2 will continue to use the Constellation tracking system because Inside out tracking isn't good enough for high-end PC VR.
    Why would they keep external tracking if they pull it off with Santa Cruz tracking? Also, I won't have this conversation again but I'll just say this : inside-out tracking isn't that bad, it's more user-friendly and Constellation proved to be just as problematic as this. Besides, it will be made-in Oculus, so it should be more efficient than Windows' system.
    Anyway, if Santa Cruz tracking system proves to be efficient, they would definitely take it for CV2.
    User-friendly is the way to go for VR right now, people like simple systems. So let's keep it simple.

    How do i reach for my tablet in Onward with inside-out tracking (it's on my back)?  Grabbing arrows/anything from behind you?  What about tracking other "live" objects?   No, we need to keep external, full room tracking, not just for the big games but for big man-tasks.
    In theory - They could use a combo of sight and magnetic tracking. This would fix the drift that magnetic tracking has yet still allow the greater range as well (360 degrees). 

    The major problem with inside out tracking is the tracking itself - it does seem to have problems with larger rooms and light sources/mirrors causing the map environment to be confused as to where it is. I guess it's not that big of a problem - but it is there. The other is cost - right now - but as anything cost will come down and more tracking camera will come to replace blind spots. There is also the problem that inside out tracking takes more CPU compare to outside in - but I'm sure again that is something that can be fix or work around over a given amount of time.

    If SC tracking can show that tracking is good still in 90% of the cases - then yea we will drop external tracking. It makes more sense to use inside out tracking in the long run as it allows a more smoother experiences and less setup on the customers meaning less support is needed to get everyone setup ~ 
  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,774 Volunteer Moderator
    Mradr said:
    @snowdog

    • CV2 will continue to use the Constellation tracking system because Inside out tracking isn't good enough for high-end PC VR.
    Why would they keep external tracking if they pull it off with Santa Cruz tracking? Also, I won't have this conversation again but I'll just say this : inside-out tracking isn't that bad, it's more user-friendly and Constellation proved to be just as problematic as this. Besides, it will be made-in Oculus, so it should be more efficient than Windows' system.
    Anyway, if Santa Cruz tracking system proves to be efficient, they would definitely take it for CV2.
    User-friendly is the way to go for VR right now, people like simple systems. So let's keep it simple.

    How do i reach for my tablet in Onward with inside-out tracking (it's on my back)?  Grabbing arrows/anything from behind you?  What about tracking other "live" objects?   No, we need to keep external, full room tracking, not just for the big games but for big man-tasks.
    In theory - They could use a combo of sight and magnetic tracking. This would fix the drift that magnetic tracking has yet still allow the greater range as well (360 degrees). 

    The major problem with inside out tracking is the tracking itself - it does seem to have problems with larger rooms and light sources/mirrors causing the map environment to be confused as to where it is. I guess it's not that big of a problem - but it is there. The other is cost - right now - but as anything cost will come down and more tracking camera will come to replace blind spots.

     Yup and low marker viability areas, such as featureless walls or areas with limited contrasting objects.
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  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,753 Valuable Player
    edited September 2018

     Yup and low marker viability areas, such as featureless walls or areas with limited contrasting objects.
    Does make me question is that really a problem or not - I mean it is - but how many featureless rooms do people live in or around? Once you know about the problem - it's an easy fix by hanging stuff on the wall such as of your family or kids. I mean even if you don't there are always fake QR codes.

    Once I get one - I will test it out and see if how far I can push it. The question for me is if they did a mix of sight and magnetic tracking. If so - how bad is the drift over a given amount of time. If little - then I say CV2 should look into it instead. Maybe adding another camera or two (can't see needing more than that due to our arm rotations) on the back plate just like they did with the LEDs. Boom - then you have a VR HMD like no other. What little time the controllers are between the cameras would be small enough that in normal conditions wouldn't be a problem. As soon as a camera sees it again would refix the drift.
  • Hiro_Protag0nistHiro_Protag0nist Posts: 4,978 Valuable Player
    But what about enterprise?  Out of home entertainment?  Engineers?  I suspect Oculus, HTC etc will want to sell their prime headset to everybody, not just home users?
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,753 Valuable Player
    edited September 2018
    But what about enterprise?  Out of home entertainment?  Engineers?  I suspect Oculus, HTC etc will want to sell their prime headset to everybody, not just home users?
    Best I can say is that it really depends on knowing the limits of inside out tracking. If you know all the conditions - then you won't really run into them. In lots of ways - this frees up a lot of current conditions that outside in needs such as running cameras and their wires around. Frees up USB ports and power needs. Allows for 20-30% more play area for the same play space. The devices are already home entertainment devices. Enterprise - not sure - I mean depending on what they're using them for in theory, at least with SC, still offer more than what CV is offering because you could stack more than one user in the same room or same ride. Engineers will be working in offices that just need to make sure the room they're working in isn't featureless (aka, hanging up family photos or QR codes).

    The only problem is how large is the area we're talking about. If we mean large warehouse - of course they will not work - but lets say a VR game space - could create mazes that have different things on the walls so the headset knew where it was from point A to B as it maps it out. 

    The only other drawback I could see with inside out tracking is - is you are giving up stuff like body trackers for example. Things outside of the camera will either ditft or not work over a given amount of time so that means external trackers will also not work after a while too. You could still program around this limit - but it be there for example by not showing the object until it comes into your sights.
  • LuluViBritanniaLuluViBritannia Posts: 523
    Neo
    edited September 2018
    @Hiro_Protag0nist

    How do i reach for my tablet in Onward with inside-out tracking (it's on my back)?  Grabbing arrows/anything from behind you?  

    WMR headsets do work with Onward:
    https://steamcommunity.com/app/496240/discussions/0/3211505894110654749/

    Grabbing stuff in the back is not an issue with those headsets. Don't understand why? Easy : for grabbable objects, there is what we can call a "detection sphere". You can grab the object when your hand touches that sphere. Right? Well, to grab an object in your back, as a developer you don't need accuracy, you just need to make sure the hand can reach that detection sphere. External tracking, although limited to the front, can let your hands go in your back to some extent. It's enough for your hand to reach the detecion sphere of the tablet, so it does alow you to get that tablet.

    Also, Santa Cruz tracking will have more cameras for a full 360° tracking system, so there will be no problem with grabbing stuff on your back.
    As for "external objects tracking", you can do that with inside-out tracking as well (that's actually how they detect the controllers).

    I'll say it again : if they pull it off with inside-out tracking, there will be literally no reason to keep external sensors.


    @Mradr :
    The other [problem] is cost
    What are you talking about? WMR headsets have inside-out tracking and are the cheapest headsets ^^.
    Current VR results imo:
    - Great small apps. Great ports of bigger games.
    - Great VR-specific features. Not enough showcased!!!
    - Too many actors in the industry, the market is totally broken.


    My hopes for VR next gen:

    - Better ratio between visual quality and power needs. No more godrays and less SDE.
    - Full Body Tracking.


    "If you don't mind, do you want me to take you there? Where dreams come true."
  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 4,153 Valuable Player


    How do i reach for my tablet in Onward with inside-out tracking (it's on my back)?  Grabbing arrows/anything from behind you?  What about tracking other "live" objects?   No, we need to keep external, full room tracking, not just for the big games but for big man-tasks.
    IF inside out is used for CV2 I hope it has a few tracking cameras on the back as well . Ideally it needs 8 imo one on each corner of the head set
    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,753 Valuable Player
    edited September 2018
    @Mradr :
    The other [problem] is cost
    What are you talking about? WMR headsets have inside-out tracking and are the cheapest headsets ^^.
    They also drift and stop working a lot of the time as well. There has been people reporting that even if the controllers is right in front of their face - that the it stop tracking the controllers when they was fully functional. Also - it was a plan to sell the idea to different partners to keep cost low on the R/D part - Oculus in this case would've had to create it themselves - so I can see it adding cost.

    CV2 on the other hand will have already increase cost from the screens/res increase, eye tracking technology, bigger lens, and possible depth of field tracking. At some point you have to stop adding cost xD Plus it will still be new enough right now I wouldn't trust inside out tracking until I knew it works great. WMR kind of left a bad taste in the VR community.
  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 4,153 Valuable Player
    edited September 2018

    Grabbing stuff in the back is not an issue with those headsets.
    Have they fixed sports bar vr yet? SOME games need accurate tracking back and front such as aiming a pool/snooker queue or setting up a serve in a tennis game or maybe (not certain) even tracking a golf swing.

    Also how about bow and arrow games? Again just guessing but I would expect tracking behind is needed for detecting exact bow tension
    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • LuluViBritanniaLuluViBritannia Posts: 523
    Neo
    edited September 2018
    @Mradr:
    - Just like there have been plenty of people reporting issues with the Rift tracking. Hell, there are tracking issues topics on the first three pages of this forum!
    - Also, just because the current inside-out tracking has this issue doesn't mean that all the inside-out tracking systems will have it. Jeez, do you really think there is no way to rectify technological issues? It's called engineering, buddy. Of course the future inside-out tracking systems will be better than the current one. Did I really need to say it?

    Good point for the price cut, though. I still think it wouldn't be that expensive to implement. But hey, let's wait and see!

    @bigmike20vt : No idea, I'll let you google it if you wonder ;) . But again, given that Santa Cruz will have full 360 support, this kind of issue, like those with bow or pool, will (should) not happen with this system. Those problems aren't inherent to inside-out tracking.
    Current VR results imo:
    - Great small apps. Great ports of bigger games.
    - Great VR-specific features. Not enough showcased!!!
    - Too many actors in the industry, the market is totally broken.


    My hopes for VR next gen:

    - Better ratio between visual quality and power needs. No more godrays and less SDE.
    - Full Body Tracking.


    "If you don't mind, do you want me to take you there? Where dreams come true."
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,753 Valuable Player
    edited September 2018
    @Mradr:
    - Just like there have been plenty of people reporting issues with the Rift tracking. Hell, there are tracking issues topics on the first three pages of this forum!
    - Also, just because the current inside-out tracking has this issue doesn't mean that all the inside-out tracking systems will have it. Jeez, do you really think there is no way to rectify technological issues? It's called engineering, buddy. Of course the future inside-out tracking systems will be better than the current one. Did I really need to say it?

    Good point for the price cut, though. I still think it wouldn't be that expensive to implement. But hey, let's wait and see!
    Most tracking issues now are cause by software or bad camera positioning not usually a fault of the hardware. I mean I still see a report here and there - but most threads are usually talking about having issues with in a game only or questions on what batteries to use for example.

    I am not saying they won't have improve it - just until we see it - how much have they improve it over WMR and what limits can we for see with in. Maybe they did make it perfect to the point that no questions down it needs to be in the CV2 no matter how much it cost to add. Today or tomorrow we will find out:)
  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 2,144 Valuable Player
    nice imnfo.

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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,710 Volunteer Moderator
    edited September 2018
    Hell, there are tracking issues topics on the first three pages of this forum!
    Looks like those 3 threads were created by the same person, some poeple's problems are perhaps 3 times more important. That's not to say it's an isolated issue but probably not too bad.
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  • kojackkojack Posts: 6,414 Volunteer Moderator
    Fixed position outside in tracking (constellation) and fixed beacon inside out tracking (lighthouse) are superior to pure optical inside out tracking because you have active tracking instead of passive so it's less susceptible to lighting conditions and you have a reliable tracking volume fixed to real world coordinates.
    Plus it's much easier to have body tracking with these, imagine trying to do feet tracking from the headset, way too much occlusion.

    What we need is to put a more powerful arm chip in the sensors, so they can process the image themselves, then stream the tracking data to the pc wirelessly. Cheap to do, sensors can be placed anywhere (either power adapter based like lighthouse or battery) without a long usb cable, most usb issues gone (only the single headset usb remains) and reduced pc cpu load. You just need to sent position/orientation for each tracked object instead of full frame video, which is easy over a wireless link.
  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,774 Volunteer Moderator
    Here is the tracking volume for Santa Cruz

    Image result for santa cruz tracking volume
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  • kojackkojack Posts: 6,414 Volunteer Moderator
    Here is the tracking volume for Santa Cruz

    Image result for santa cruz tracking volume
    VR Pacman looks scary.
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