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Oculus Rift vs HTC Vive + Pimax + StarVR

ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 11,982 Power Poster
edited September 30 in General
Here are the headsets that the Oculus Rift is NOT competing with:
  • Oculus Quest
  • Oculus GO
  • GearVR
I've seen the question posed (repeatedly) on multiple sites that the potential success of Oculus Quest will somehow harm the Oculus Rift. The Rift is in a PC market, Quest is in a Mobile-Console Market (it has a Snapdragon processor with an Android OS). The advances that GO and Quest can make to visual immersion are limited (e.g. correcting Chromatic Abberation) due to the lack of powerful processors combined with a dedicated GPU.
If Oculus Quest and Oculus GO managed to sell 1-billion units each while the Rift remains less than 10-million... this is NOT bad for the Rift. Because the Rift is competing with other PC-based VR units that are trying to become leaders in PC-based Virtual Reality, not Mobile- or Console-based VR.

HTC Vive
They are still fresh in to launching their updated VivePort platform and the Vive Pro is technically better than the Rift. HTC has spent this year giving lectures about their future in VR which includes being able to read "brain waves."
http://www.alphr.com/virtual-reality/1006556/this-htc-vive-prototype-lets-you-play-vr-games-using-brain-waves

Pimax
For those who have been following along Pimax's success... they are on the verge of releasing the 5K-Plus with plans for the 8K-X (native 4K resolution) with an increased FOV that is superior to the Rift. And by piggy-backing off of the Vive's successful Tracking setup, we have a Kickstarter that could "potentially" outshine the Rift in a few short months.
https://www.roadtovr.com/pimax-8k-to-being-shipping-by-months-end-pimax-5k-plus-announced/

StarVR
This headset is marketed towards "visionaries" and totes itself as being "dedicated to the innovation of professional virtual reality solutions, with a focus on high-end enterprise applications and location-based entertainment." StarVR has competitive technology today such as increased FoV and eye-tracking. This is probably the Rift's biggest competitor today.
https://www.starvr.com/products/


Talks of a Gen 2 Rift should entail the potential features that it "needs" to have in order to compete with the Vive, Pimax, and StarVR, and to some extend... Windows Mixed Reality. As well as any other contenders for PC-based VR. Let's say for a moment that the success of GO and Quest does somehow negatively impact the Rift (because Facebook and Oculus suddenly forget who their real competition is in this hypothetical), then organization's like HTC, Pimax, and StarVR will simply take center stage as PCVR leaders.

The real question we need to ask ourselves is this: Will Oculus Quest and Oculus GO have a meaningful impact on PCVR competitors like HTC, Pimax, StarVR?

I don't have an answer to that myself. However, I do know that GO and Quest would do more harm to Facebook-Oculus competitors before it would harm the Rift.
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Comments

  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 3,926 Valuable Player
    I don't want to struggle with question of whether the Rift is in competition with the Quest or with any PC VR headsets because I just tried running through all the arguments in my head and didn't get an absolute answer.

    I will say that the advent of Quest has 100% changed my plans to have a second PC for my living room to enjoy VR there. I'll get a Quest instead. Rift will stay in my study where I have to have a PC.

    Only then will I make any predictions on whether Quest competes with PC VR, based on which one I gravitate towards using most often.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 11,982 Power Poster
    Great point DnD. And based on your feedback, it would seem that Quest is also pulling you away from considering any other non-Oculus PCVR products. Is that a fair statement?

    So if you get a Quest then you are likely not interested in the PCVR advancements offered by StarVR, etc.

    And I think that's the bigger point I'm trying to make. If Quest is successful "against PCVR" as a whole then this will impact Facebook-Oculus competitors before it impacts the Rift.
    :)
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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 5,090 Power Poster
    I wouldn't include the StarVR headset as competition for ANY headset in the home consumer space. We don't know exactly how expensive it's going to be but it wouldn't surprise me if it's over 3 grand to buy. They'll probably sell 4 or 5 of the things to the great unwashed like us lol :o :D :D :D

    The Pimax is certainly a contender, I'm going to buy one if we have to wait until 2022 for the CV2.
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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 4,786 Valuable Player
    edited September 30
    I just saw in the Piemax thread that it struggles with a Geforce 2080, so it's not a contender for me right now. Even though it would only be a stop gap to Oculus Rift 2..

    I will be getting an Oculus Quest for my living room though. My Rift is in my computer room so it will be good to use Oculus Quest anywhere..
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 11,982 Power Poster
    snowdog said:
    I wouldn't include the StarVR headset as competition for ANY headset in the home consumer space. We don't know exactly how expensive it's going to be but it wouldn't surprise me if it's over 3 grand to buy. They'll probably sell 4 or 5 of the things to the great unwashed like us lol

    The Pimax is certainly a contender, I'm going to buy one if we have to wait until 2022 for the CV2.

    I sense a slight bias. You are considering Pimax a contender because you are planning on buying one. However, I could make an argument that they are not a contender because they have no track record of success: their Gen 1 was a failure and their Gen 2 is a Kickstarter project that didn't achieve its promised goals. Arguments can be made both ways, but on paper StarVR is most certainly the stronger product. I don't consider price relevant in this discussion. Just because something is expensive doesn't mean it isn't good. Check out Lamborghini's as a prime example.

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  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,253 Volunteer Moderator
    edited September 30
    Well, I have a small prediction, majority of people who say "no CV2!, burn it all down, I'm not interested in Quest!!" will see how much fun everyone else is having, that it turns out games and experiences look great and will buy Quest anyway to satiate their "new toy" cravings for a while longer, while Oculus works on true high-end gen2 rift. Which they will also buy when it's ready .. hehe

    I myself don't see Pimax or Star VR being the competition here at the moment and Vive Pro still requires a hefty investment into a new platform and ecosystem. For the small percentage of people that do switch, the number of new people from Quest sales won't really matter to Oculus/FB

    Pimax has proven the ages-old rule in hardware design, "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should"


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  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 4,877 Volunteer Moderator
    Aren't all VR headsets contenders, the more out there the merrier imo. I won't say too much more as I don't have the "techy" savvy to be able to comment ;)
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  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,253 Volunteer Moderator
    edited September 30
    From Tomshardware:

    However, the width of your view into the virtual world is not the be-all, end-all factor when considering a VR headset. You must consider the entire package, not just the fancy features. It doesn’t matter how spectacular one aspect of a VR headset is if the rest of it doesn’t live up to expectations.


    If you go for the Pimax now, ok you get your FOV and Res but you sacrifice, touch controls (knuckles is still in dev kit rounds), ergonomics, headphones, game exclusives (ok you can use 3rd party software to get them, but again, no touch), customer support for when things break, a stable company that wont fold in a year as backers turn on it, you will also need a £1200 GPU on top of it to play games without having reprojection ruin your experience.

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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 4,786 Valuable Player
    Techy111 said:
    Aren't all VR headsets contenders, the more out there the merrier imo. I won't say too much more as I don't have the "techy" savvy to be able to comment ;)

    Problem with having to many out there is that people can get the wrong impression about VR, if the one they pick up is crap. 
  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 4,877 Volunteer Moderator
    Agreed mate, excellent point. 
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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 5,090 Power Poster
    Zenbane said:
    snowdog said:
    I wouldn't include the StarVR headset as competition for ANY headset in the home consumer space. We don't know exactly how expensive it's going to be but it wouldn't surprise me if it's over 3 grand to buy. They'll probably sell 4 or 5 of the things to the great unwashed like us lol

    The Pimax is certainly a contender, I'm going to buy one if we have to wait until 2022 for the CV2.

    I sense a slight bias. You are considering Pimax a contender because you are planning on buying one. However, I could make an argument that they are not a contender because they have no track record of success: their Gen 1 was a failure and their Gen 2 is a Kickstarter project that didn't achieve its promised goals. Arguments can be made both ways, but on paper StarVR is most certainly the stronger product. I don't consider price relevant in this discussion. Just because something is expensive doesn't mean it isn't good. Check out Lamborghini's as a prime example.


    On paper, as far as specs goes, it is indeed a stronger product. But it isn't going to be competition for the other headsets. Of course price is relevant. If it's too expensive then nobody will buy the thing. It remains to be seen whether the Pimax headsets are going to be competition for the same reason too. That's why I said it's a contender. If Pimax have the things costing over a grand for the full bundle then they won't sell that many and will be outsold by Rifts and Vives. If, on the other hand, they sell for under 800 for the full bundle then they'll shift a fair few.

    Yes, their '4K' headset was a flop, but going by feedback that we've heard so far they appear to have learnt some very important lessons from their previous mistake.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 11,982 Power Poster
    snowdog said:
    On paper, as far as specs goes, it is indeed a stronger product. But it isn't going to be competition for the other headsets.

    I disagree, "The StarVR One comes with SteamVR Tracking 2.0." SteamVR is obviously a consumer platform built for gaming. Sure their target market is the commercial sector, but theoretically so was the Vive Pro. That didn't stop it from being purchased by consumers so that they could enjoy games like Skyrim VR with it.

    snowdog said:
     Of course price is relevant. If it's too expensive then nobody will buy the thing. It remains to be seen whether the Pimax headsets are going to be competition for the same reason too.

    You're contradicting yourself. The Pimax 8K Kickstarter raised over 4-million dollars with just under 6,000 backers. Do the Math on that. If it wasn't for a niche number of consumers willing to spend excessive amounts of money on a single VR HMD, then the Pimax 8K Kickstarter never would have happened and you wouldn't be able to talk about your plans to invest in one lol

    Price aint a factor; your views on the Pimax 8K prove that, since the only reason you can even look favorably on the Pimax is because of those out there who know that price isn't a factor.


    Yes, their '4K' headset was a flop, but going by feedback that we've heard so far they appear to have learnt some very important lessons from their previous mistake.


    Learning lessons doesn't mean anything when we're talking about a Kickstarter that doesn't achieve its goals.

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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 11,982 Power Poster
    @Zenbane, for me,  I think I'm discounting other PC VR headsets for various reasons which are probably independent of Quest.

    Pimax is both too expensive when taking into account having to buy the whole kit and start over, and too many questions still over drivability and performance.

    I haven't been following StarVR tbh so I shouldnt pre-judge that one, but I'm guessing it has the same issues for me as does the Pimax, probably more so.

    So bottom line for me is that thus far Rift is what's stopping me buying any other PC VR headset and my wallet, and the unrealistic performance requirements.

    Quest will stop me buying any other stand-alone... unlless something amazing turns up! ...and my favourite PC VR games will stop me abandoning PC VR any time soon.

    Ah yes, that makes sense! I started paying attention to StarVR after reading several Facebook conversations. Then I followed some reddit posts and the only real complaint people have about StarVR is that they are targeting Enterprise instead of Consumer, which of course means there could be an 'exceptionally' high price. Likely somewhere between $4,000 and $6,000.

    Although even a price point of $2,000 just for the HMD would still be considered high.

    Quest's platform is still very much mobile, and I can't imagine it ever getting good enough to warrant me stopping my Rift investments. The PCVR market is being continuously moved forward by HTC and now Starbreeze (StarVR) in ways that Quest alone simply can't keep up with. I will rely on Rift to hold up its competitive edge against the main PCVR competitors.
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  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 3,938 Valuable Player
    In no particular order, the rest of the rest:

    - HTC Vive Focus
    - Pimax 8K
    - Pimax 5K
    - LG
    - StarVR
    - VRingeering
    - Samsung Odyssey
    - Acer
    - HP
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  • dburnedburne Posts: 1,506
    Project 2501
    edited September 30
    There is no way the Quest could even think about running the gaming I spend well over 90% of my VR time in. 
    For me it is PC-VR or nothing. Now that is not to say I would not absolutely pick up a Quest out of curiosity and maybe a little lower level gaming on some occasions, but PC-VR is what I absolutely have the most interest in.

    And still feeling pretty dejected over the lack of information at OC5 from Oculus regarding a successor to the Rift. Instead we are left to conjecture and guessing what may or may not come and in what time frame that may or may not be. Trying to read between the lines on statements that were made that might possibly contain a hint. And here I was thinking that Nvidia included those new Virtual Link ports in their 20x series of cards just released looked very promising for a next gen PC-VR product from Oculus before too long.

    HTC Vive Pro - no, cost versus value from what I have read is not there. Plus some users replacing the lenses for a better picture with Gear VR lenses. No thanks.
    Pimax - Never much cared for the way they market their products, not at all. Will see how things look with them when actual consumers have product in hand playing the games I spend most of my time in. I know of a few Kickstarter guys waiting on devices that play the same games I do mostly. I don't have much feel good about it yet though.
    StarVR - If they offered a home consumer version with some of the advancements sounds like they are making with their enterprise offering, at a reasonable level of pricing and fairly soon, I would strongly consider it.

    So in the meantime I continue to use and enjoy very much my Rift on a daily basis, but will continue to hope for some advancements ( namely resolution and FOV) that someone can bring to the table sooner than sounds like Oculus will be willing to. That can actually run the games I play at reasonable enough performance and give a great experience in. Otherwise I will just keep on awaiting and using my Rift.

    Personally, I think Oculus is holding off too long and trying to add too much to a next gen PC-VR device. They are positioning their self well with the mobile and stand alone market, they may be letting some of the PC-VR market eventually slip through their hands.
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  • MradrMradr Posts: 2,647 Valuable Player
    edited October 1
    1) VR as a technology is demanding on current hardware
    - A) But is it demanding because of current software/hardware or is it demanding because we just haven't figure out a good way to render said VR both in terms of software/hardware?

    2) When comparing said headsets - the normal issues that pop up are:
    -A) No one wants to see another HTC Pro - because of price and hardware requirements $1k+ price tags are out the door
    -B) Pimax 8k/x isn't worth because of hardware requirements and LCD technology (commented by early Pimax users)
    -C) Pimax 5k+ is worth because it is a step up from current headsets both in terms of FOV and Res (commented by early Pimax users)
    -D) Price is still floating in the air for Pimax after the kickstarter's backers get their headsets
    -E) WMR devices - tracking isn't as good as HTC or Oculus tracking along with other problems such as resolution
    -F) 1) - Computer hardware costly, bulky, and over all VR demands too much from it
    -G) Price is still too high for a lot of people - but how low do we go before we say it's not for you for this gen or next?
    -H) VR is limited to only home use and will not be seen in public or work environment 3)
    -I) VR is still not as comfortable as sitting in front of a monitor
    -J) VR doesn't allow easy in and out for quick flashes to content that other wises is easier to see on a monitor/tv

    3) VR seen as only media, games, and possible training devices, but otherwise lock to home use
    -A) VR hasn't been shown to be more and most of that is cause by limits of 1)
    -B) What can VR do to replace current pancake software and allow a smooth experiences that allows a cross over for the between stuff
    -C) Everyone wants a face - not a brick strap to their face
    -D) 2-G) Unless it offers at the same cost as current hardware/monitors - they won't uptake to scale current low cost hardware can do now

    4) VR just isn't there yet for what people want
    -A) A lot of comments from here, road to vr, and other tech sites would love to get into VR, but don't see what they want in VR yet in the core specs of higher resolution (4k per eye at least), 120+ FOV, and beter lens
    -B) Some of those though just skip gen 1 in hopes that gen 2 would have some of the current bugs, software, and techniques figure out or fix for the next release.
    -C) Some are waiting for a true next generation device that is a leap forward of current/last gen offer. This would include advanaces outside of the core specs such as in ET/FOVR, VF, body tracking, etc that also includes technology that acts double for core values such as flat lenses to reduce weight, small sizes, and increase visual quality. 

    5) New problems and where are we at?
    -A) As we continue to increase core specs we are finding out new problems that we didn't know was there before and no one seems to be talking about these issues and how we can overcome them yet. Pimax issues with higher FOV of wrapping on the edges is a good example of this stuff.
    -B) We need more transparency on technology that we like to see and what may be to come. OC5 showed a glimpse into some of that - but more talks like these helps inform users on what is going on as well.

    6) Hardware cost is still very high
    -A) Screen technology at current  is costing 2x because of having two eyes instead of one. There isn't currently a real VR screen that is design around the idea of splitting the pixels on one panel yet (some pixels are lost in between the eyes).
    -B) New technology into screens cost a lot to create  and is double pounded on the fact you need two of them to get per eye to eye and not lose pixels in the middle.
    -C) 

    7) VR content creation tools (hardware and software)
    -A) Software 
    -B) Hardware
    -C) Settings
    -D) Scale over time

    Some of this - is going to be real limits to hit that one billion people and others are just facts of the nature of the beat at large. A work in progress btw - It's long o.o;
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 11,982 Power Poster
    ^^
    Glad it wasn't just me!
    :'(
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  • LuluViBritanniaLuluViBritannia Posts: 300
    Nexus 6
    edited October 1
    Agreed, it's hard to read it all... but it's also so damn interesting! Kudos @Mradr!
    I'd like to answer some of these points:

    1) It's both. As VR is new, we haven't figured out the optimal way to render it indeed ; but the VR concept itself also needs a lot of power. The bigger the FOV, the bigger the objects to render; that point alone makes the rendering costly. Then, add the fact that you have to render the scene twice, which literally doubles the cost. And add the positioning data, and the software needs (aside from the rendering),...
    But that point will improve in time.

    2)
    H) The fact that it is a "home use" is not a limit per se. It's like you said cars are limited because they can be used only on roads. Do you see what I mean? Everything has a use case, and VR being a home use is not a limit, it's the use case. Besides, there's plenty of stuff to do at home  :D .
    Finally, it can be used in work environment.

    4) Among those who say all that, there's also a lot who simply didn't test VR (and by "test", I don't mean "try once", because a single trial can easily be a let down, for various reasons). The current technology already allows a lot that normal tech can't, and even improves the things that normal tech can do. Only people can't realize that because marketing for VR is shit.

    6) A few years ago the Oculus Rift was proven to cost less than 300$ to produce. The price is not due to hardware, it is due to research (given that it's new tech, there's a ton of research to do, and that's what we pay for).
    A) Er... I seem to recall the mobile VR does split the phone screen in two. As does the Oculus Go. One panel, two rendered eyes.
    C) ??? :D .

    7) That comes in time. We already have Oculus Medium for 3D sculpting, many companies have CAD VR software (especially in automotive), and Oculus is working on hybrid apps to make VR versions of normal software (hopefully they can pull it off!).

    Overall, most of these issues are true, but will be rectified in time. As you said, VR is still a work in progress ; but so is absolutely every tech out there. Cars can be improved. Phones can be improved. Computers can be improved. That never stopped the majority of people to buy those. Even when TV was blurry and black&white. Even when cars were barely safe. Even when computers were slow as hell.

    My point is, technology issues is not what limits mass consumption. Never has been, never will be. Hell, most people don't even understand some stuff they use.

    There are three things to check to make a mass consumer product:
    - make it user-friendly. The easier the product, the better.
    - show why people need it (what it can be used for, and what it brings compared to the other products).
    - make it as cheap as you can.

    Those are the real limits that current VR needs to get by. Of course the tech will naturally improve.
    Previous VR face :


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    - Beat Saber.
    - Windlands.
    - Skyrim VR.

    I use VR for :
    - Games.
    - Art Software (Tilt Brush, Oculus Medium, Mocu Mocu Dance).
    - Cinema VR (Oculus Desktop or Virtual Desktop).

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  • MradrMradr Posts: 2,647 Valuable Player
    edited October 1
    1) current screens in VR that use a single panel losses 10% of their total pixels down the middle between the eyes.
    2) All the stuff you say "will improve over time" still has to happen - all what I wrote is just put it down as it's not done yet. Just because it can be done - doesn't mean can be blind sighted just yet. IF any of said companies did most of these over night - they will over take the VR crown.
    3) 300$ is still triple that of what it cost for a business to replace a monitor.  Business are willing to buy in bulk though - so more of those compare to what you will find in a home for example as well.
    4)I know everything has a use case - but phones use case at the start was simply phone calls - and now no one can live without one anymore it seems. VR use case is still limited to VR media and games. More is to come I'm sure. FB is in the works in terms of video calling as we speak - but until stuff like that comes out - it's not check offable yet.
    5) The reason you will not see them in business as much - is because everyone wants to someone without having a mask between them. For example, if someone was wearing a HMD in front of you while you are at the DNV and said to hold on- you will feel very awkward while you wait unknowing what they;re doing even if they're just pulling up your information.
  • EvileyesEvileyes Posts: 255
    Nexus 6
    edited October 1

    I'm expecting some serious gaming in October. My 2080 ti will be delivered this week, and my Wireless adapter for my Vive Pro will follow. I cannot WAIT to be untethered!!!!! This cord shit has been keeping me from playing because when I crouch turn etc.. the cord ALWAYS fucks up my immersion, always.


    My opinion is, Vive Pro + Wireless + 2080 ti + 2.0 SS is the absolute best for actually gaming in VR at this point in time...

    StarVR isn't ready, and even if it was.. the hardware to run it isn't, and the price is not going to be justifiable for a long time. Pimax, like I've always said had too many variables, taking forever.. piggy backing off the Vive's tracking tech and controllers for that matter.. it just seems too R&D for my taste.. I just want to game, and game right now.. no fucking around with glitches etc..


    Again, being untethered is in my opinion going to be EPIC! (liberating!) I'm sure some people don't care about the cord but for me... I believe it will make all the difference in the world. I'm seriously done with this cord shit. Unwinding it, playing jump rope.. adjusting new users with it etc.. I could go on and on. It's wireless or nothing now. (not counting driving or flying simulation of course)


  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,253 Volunteer Moderator
    Worrying report on Vive Wireless overheating, 

    https://uploadvr.com/htc-investigating-vive-wireless-adapter/
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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 5,090 Power Poster
    Worrying report on Vive Wireless overheating, 

    https://uploadvr.com/htc-investigating-vive-wireless-adapter/

    Beat me to it lol :D
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  • Digikid1Digikid1 Posts: 1,210
    Wintermute
    edited October 9
    Well Mike from @VirtualRealityOasis now has a nice red 1st degree burn spot in the middle of his head thanks to that dumb thing.  Can only imagine the radiation it is emitting.

    CORRECTION : Okay so it was not Mike that suffered this.....but it looked like him from that angle.  LOL!!!!!!

    ( Disclaimer : no I am not one of those Wifi fearing nutjobs...I am just saying that is a possibility. )
  • MradrMradr Posts: 2,647 Valuable Player
    Obs. this is a test to see how well they can get sword art online microwave system working. This way you can't leave VR without having your brain faired just like in the anime.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 11,982 Power Poster
    In related news, sitting atop a heated oven may burn your arse.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • Stryker1000Stryker1000 Posts: 474
    Trinity
    And in other news ..sitting atop a 2000rev spin washing machine can give wimmin serious orgasms !
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 5,090 Power Poster
    Hmmmm...might have to get a new washing machine just in case @vannagirl comes over  :D
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • Stryker1000Stryker1000 Posts: 474
    Trinity
    funnily I was thinking of vanna when I typed that up B)
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