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No more Screen Door Effect (SDE) - new Samsung Odyssey+ introduces perceived 1,233 PPI level res

RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 776
3Jane
edited October 21 in General
So we've got:

Oculus Rift = 461 PPI
HTC Vive Pro = 615 PPI
Samsung Odyssey+ = 1233 PPI (level)

Actually Samsung Odyssey+ is 616 PPI like the Vive Pro, but some magic happens according to Samsung:


Limitless Viewing Experience

With exclusive, evolutionary, SDE-minimizing Samsung display technology, users can perceive a 1,233ppi-level resolution. A 3.5" advanced Anti-SDE Dual AMOLED display lets you experience incredibly immersive mixed reality, and break down the boundaries between the real and the virtual.




Looks interesting though, could be simply awesome for movies and Netflix, we'll see when the first reviews arrive - more info here:

https://www.samsung.com/hk_en/hmd/hmd-plus-xe800zba-hc1/

Some other improvements - design looks much like a copy of the Rift:











It does actually look quite impressive - still those controllers look awful compared to Touch. Given enough time to evolve, Samsung may be a very serious contender, in fact Samsung could evolve to deserve a new logo!


Intel i7 7700K (4.2-4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS (Home/OEM); Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling at 2.0. 

"Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR" ;-)
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Comments

  • LuluViBritanniaLuluViBritannia Posts: 349
    Trinity
    I don't believe in magic. But if they did find a new "anti-SDE" screen, that's very good news (given that the rendered resolution can be augmented with SS). When can we expect them to release this?
    Previous VR face :


    My current config : HP Omen laptop, 8 GB RAM, Intel i5-7300HQ @2.5GHz + Nvidia GTX 1050 (2GB VRAM).

    Currently plays on :

    - Beat Saber.
    - Windlands.
    - Skyrim VR.

    I use VR for :
    - Games.
    - Art Software (Tilt Brush, Oculus Medium, Mocu Mocu Dance).
    - Cinema VR (Oculus Desktop or Virtual Desktop).

    "You are allowed to kill only if you are prepared to die."
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 776
    3Jane
    When can we expect them to release this?

    I haven't seen any specific date, but it seems that many are convinced it'll happen very soon - this year, like:

    "We don’t know when Samsung is planning to launch the new WMR headset, but it would be a safe bet to say the company will probably target the holiday quarter."
    Source: https://www.sammobile.com/2018/09/28/samsung-odyssey-wmr-headset-3c-certification/

    It may not be available in Europe. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.2-4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS (Home/OEM); Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling at 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR" ;-)
  • LuluViBritanniaLuluViBritannia Posts: 349
    Trinity
    That would be great! I would love to get feedback on their "anti-SDE system" when it is available for testing. For now I am persuaded they just use a native Super Sampling and call it a "revolutionary technology".
    I don't really worry about Europe, there will always be a way to get it at a decent price.
    Previous VR face :


    My current config : HP Omen laptop, 8 GB RAM, Intel i5-7300HQ @2.5GHz + Nvidia GTX 1050 (2GB VRAM).

    Currently plays on :

    - Beat Saber.
    - Windlands.
    - Skyrim VR.

    I use VR for :
    - Games.
    - Art Software (Tilt Brush, Oculus Medium, Mocu Mocu Dance).
    - Cinema VR (Oculus Desktop or Virtual Desktop).

    "You are allowed to kill only if you are prepared to die."
  • Digikid1Digikid1 Posts: 1,318
    Project 2501
    Ugh.  That fugly controller design makes me vomit a little. 

    That said it is impressive HMD design. 
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 3,135 Power Poster
    RuneSR2 said:

    It may not be available in Europe. 
    SMH.


    System Specs: RTX 2080 ti , i7 4790K CPU, 16 GB RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
  • oldgamergazzaoldgamergazza Posts: 54
    Hiro Protagonist
    I read somewhere that it would be released 14th of November, but I can not remember where:(
  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 381
    Trinity
    Still no flip up lid like the rest of WMR headsets?  Still, looks good on paper.  Pity it is limited to WMR.  It would be nice if they could license and produce a Rift version.
    Alienware 17r4 Laptop with i7-7700hq 2.8/3.6, 32 gb ram, gtx1060 w/6gb ram, 256gb ssd, 1tb hdd, Oculus Rift w/2x sensors.  Now using an Alienware Graphics Amplifier (AGA) with Zotac gtx1080ti Blower and Asus vg248qe 144hz external monitor.  All works great!

    Also have a 64gb Oculus Go which I love for travel and quick VR Fixes.  Looking forward to the Quest!
  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,342 Volunteer Moderator
    So this works like I thought SDE could be mitigated 2 years ago! (should have patented it lol)

    "Samsung’s exclusive AMOLED technology applies a grid pattern structure to devices’ top-layer panels, reducing the distance between pixels by almost 50%. "

    It's basically a layer of tiny prism-like patterns on top of the screens that reduce the perceived distance between the pixels by bending the light. 

    This is a miniaturised version of how these simple "bezel removers" work. 

    It's a prism lens that bends light to remove the bezel, obviously Samsung tech works on a much tinier scale
    Core i7-7700k @ 4.9 Ghz | 32 GB DDR4 Corsair Vengeance @ 3000Mhz | 2x 1TB Samsung Evo | 2x 4GB WD Black
    ASUS MAXIMUS IX HERO | MSI AERO GTX 1080 OC @ 2000Mhz | Corsair Carbide Series 400C White (RGB FTW!) 

    Be kind to one another :)
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 4,885 Valuable Player
    Why are Samsung choosing not to release the Samsung Odyssey in Europe? 
  • oldgamergazzaoldgamergazza Posts: 54
    Hiro Protagonist
    edited October 21
    This is where I saw the date, oops its the 17th

  • OmegaM4NOmegaM4N Posts: 221
    Nexus 6
    Well the lowest SDE i have seen in a VR headset to date in in the PSVR, and it also zero godrays, so i have been expecting the SDE thing to disappear completly from all VR hardware at some point over the next few years, so i am ready as are my aging eyes.

    We are almost there, should be fun, can't wait for the next hardware.

  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 641
    Neo
    This looks brilliant but I have two questions, so when this comes out, if I buy this HMD can I plug it in, load up Oculus Home and play my current Rift games?

    And can I use my Touch Controllers if I don't like the Samsung controllers?

    This looks really impressive and could tie us over until Rift CV2 comes out.

    Thanks in advance for answers :)
  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 381
    Trinity
    This looks brilliant but I have two questions, so when this comes out, if I buy this HMD can I plug it in, load up Oculus Home and play my current Rift games?

    And can I use my Touch Controllers if I don't like the Samsung controllers?

    This looks really impressive and could tie us over until Rift CV2 comes out.

    Thanks in advance for answers :)

    It's a Windows Mixed Reality headset so no go with Oculus Home or Touch controllers.
    Alienware 17r4 Laptop with i7-7700hq 2.8/3.6, 32 gb ram, gtx1060 w/6gb ram, 256gb ssd, 1tb hdd, Oculus Rift w/2x sensors.  Now using an Alienware Graphics Amplifier (AGA) with Zotac gtx1080ti Blower and Asus vg248qe 144hz external monitor.  All works great!

    Also have a 64gb Oculus Go which I love for travel and quick VR Fixes.  Looking forward to the Quest!
  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 641
    Neo
    edited October 22
    TomCgcmfc said:
    This looks brilliant but I have two questions, so when this comes out, if I buy this HMD can I plug it in, load up Oculus Home and play my current Rift games?

    And can I use my Touch Controllers if I don't like the Samsung controllers?

    This looks really impressive and could tie us over until Rift CV2 comes out.

    Thanks in advance for answers :)

    It's a Windows Mixed Reality headset so no go with Oculus Home or Touch controllers.

    Oh that sucks, well maybe I could get used to the controllers but if we can't play our games on Oculus Store, what can we play? Just Samsung games?

    I thought HMD's are basically a platform like a PC, we should be able to play all games on all HMD's.

    Can we not play Steam games either then? And what type of tracking does Samsung use?
  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 381
    Trinity
    edited October 22
    TomCgcmfc said:
    This looks brilliant but I have two questions, so when this comes out, if I buy this HMD can I plug it in, load up Oculus Home and play my current Rift games?

    And can I use my Touch Controllers if I don't like the Samsung controllers?

    This looks really impressive and could tie us over until Rift CV2 comes out.

    Thanks in advance for answers :)

    It's a Windows Mixed Reality headset so no go with Oculus Home or Touch controllers.

    Oh that sucks, well maybe I could get used to the controllers but if we can't play our games on Oculus Store, what can we play? Just Samsung games?

    I thought HMD's are basically a platform like a PC, we should be able to play all games on all HMD's.

    Can we not play Steam games either then? And what type of tracking does Samsung use?
    It's a Windows Mixed Reality headset so it can play anything from the Microsoft store and just about anything from the Steam Store.  Apparently you can also run Oculus games with a WMR headset using a program called Revive but I have never tried this.  Unless you really want to go WMR I would give this a miss.  I started out with WMR but changed to a Rift +6 months ago.  Best thing I ever did.  The Oculus VR system is much more stable and Oculus support beats WMR support anyday imho.
    Alienware 17r4 Laptop with i7-7700hq 2.8/3.6, 32 gb ram, gtx1060 w/6gb ram, 256gb ssd, 1tb hdd, Oculus Rift w/2x sensors.  Now using an Alienware Graphics Amplifier (AGA) with Zotac gtx1080ti Blower and Asus vg248qe 144hz external monitor.  All works great!

    Also have a 64gb Oculus Go which I love for travel and quick VR Fixes.  Looking forward to the Quest!
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 4,885 Valuable Player
    You won't even be able to buy it in Europe I bet. You can't get hold of the other Samsung odyssey, so I doubt this one will be released in Europe..
  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 641
    Neo
    RedRizla said:
    You won't even be able to buy it in Europe I bet. You can't get hold of the other Samsung odyssey, so I doubt this one will be released in Europe..

    That's strange, I wonder why they did that.
  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,102
    Wintermute
    edited October 22
    Am I dreaming? Is this real?

    People have been saying that we won't reduce the SDE until we get 4K or 8K per eye and foveated rendering. This is huge. 

    If I can play Project Cars 2 and IL 2 without the SDE, that's a total game changer. This is huge for those of us who play flight and racing sim in VR. 

    Anyway, it sounds too good to be true. I'll wait until I see reviews. 

    But this will totally destroy Pi Max sales if it comes out soon. 

    Can Oculus copy this with their CV2? The worst case is that you have to choose between the better Oculus software and hardware and the better image quality of the Odyssey+. 
  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,342 Volunteer Moderator
    MowTin said:
    Am I dreaming? Is this real?

    People have been saying that we won't reduce the SDE until we get 4K or 8K per eye and foveated rendering. This is huge. 

    If I can play Project Cars 2 and IL 2 without the SDE, that's a total game changer. This is huge for those of us who play flight and racing sim in VR. 

    Anyway, it sounds too good to be true. I'll wait until I see reviews. 

    But this will totally destroy Pi Max sales if it comes out soon. 

    Can Oculus copy this with their CV2? The worst case is that you have to choose between the better Oculus software and hardware and the better image quality of the Odyssey+. 
    The rift uses Samsung screens already and there is no reason I see why Samsung would not let their partners use this tech.
    Core i7-7700k @ 4.9 Ghz | 32 GB DDR4 Corsair Vengeance @ 3000Mhz | 2x 1TB Samsung Evo | 2x 4GB WD Black
    ASUS MAXIMUS IX HERO | MSI AERO GTX 1080 OC @ 2000Mhz | Corsair Carbide Series 400C White (RGB FTW!) 

    Be kind to one another :)
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 776
    3Jane
    edited October 22
    So this works like I thought SDE could be mitigated 2 years ago! (should have patented it lol)

    "Samsung’s exclusive AMOLED technology applies a grid pattern structure to devices’ top-layer panels, reducing the distance between pixels by almost 50%. "

    It's basically a layer of tiny prism-like patterns on top of the screens that reduce the perceived distance between the pixels by bending the light. 

    This is a miniaturised version of how these simple "bezel removers" work. 

    It's a prism lens that bends light to remove the bezel, obviously Samsung tech works on a much tinier scale

    It's now on the US Website for just $499:

    https://www.samsung.com/us/computing/hmd/windows-mixed-reality/hmd-odyssey-windows-mixed-reality-headset-xe800zba-hc1us/

    - and RoadToVR just published an article explaining the Samsung Odyssey+ anti-SDE:

    "Samsung Anti-SDE AMOLED Display solves SDE by applying a grid that diffuses light coming from each pixel and replicating the picture to areas around each pixel. This makes the spaces between pixels near impossible to see. In result, your eyes perceive the diffused light as part of the visual content, with a perceived PPI of 1,233PPI, double that of the already high 616PPI of the previous generation Samsung HMD Odyssey+ [sic]."

    More here: https://www.roadtovr.com/samsung-odyssey-plus-price-anti-sde-display/

    $500 does sound rather inexpensive including controllers - and you do have access to many SteamVR games. Still I love my Rift using high levels of super sampling <3

    SDE isn't a great problem to me in games. SDE feels slightly like scanlines in MAME (Multiple Arcade Machine Emulator), possibly adding an extra quality (I always enable scanlines to get that great old arcade/CRT look in emulated arcade games - no, I'm not joking at all). The SDE primarily bothers me in movies.
    Intel i7 7700K (4.2-4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS (Home/OEM); Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling at 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR" ;-)
  • hoppingbunny123hoppingbunny123 Posts: 313
    Nexus 6
    edited October 22

    the only way this could provide any benefit is if the spaces in the panel not lit by a pixel were lit somehow.

    the resolution doesnt change. the pixels still show what they show = resolution. but the spaces between pixels are filled.

    split the pixel light over two spaces using something like the fiber optic toy that sends light down plastic fiber to;
    - the space over the pixel and
    - the space between pixels beside the pixel

    https://www.scientificsonline.com/product/fiber-optic-light-wand

    its cheap to make the fiber optic strand, just lead it to from the original individual pixel and guide it to two spaces, the fiber lights up the space not lit by a pixel.

    the benefit isnt increased resolution but loss of screen door effect.

    to separate pixels you will need very fine thin walls between spots the fiber sends light too. and extra light being sent out probably means more light nits have to be used.
  • Roming22Roming22 Posts: 141
    Art3mis
    For video projector, there move the panel around to simulate 4k and remove SDE (some call it e-shift). I'd have thought that they would have applied a similar mechanism, but a static grid of lenses surely does the trick while being inexpensive.
  • whitav8whitav8 Posts: 92
    Hiro Protagonist
    edited October 22
    This sounds more like a diffuser that is a simple optical layer (like scotch tape) that was tried by a lot of DK2 users to reduce SDE. Similar to the following:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/2dq69k/comparison_of_dk2_screen_door_effect_with_and/

    If it's not overdone - that is, it becomes blurry - this could be very nice. I like the price and the fact that it doesn't require any more CPU/GPU power. I think some reviews are in order (CV1, Vive Pro, PiMax5k+, Odyssey, Odyssey+) and for me, flight sims as visual benchmarks.

    I'd like to see a PiMax 5K+ with a similar SDE reducer.
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 400
    Trinity
    My biggest concern with these only having only having 2 cameras in the front has always been the tracking. I wish there was a 4 camera option or something to cover the back. 
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 776
    3Jane
    Samsung released this video yesterday:


    Intel i7 7700K (4.2-4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS (Home/OEM); Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling at 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR" ;-)
  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 381
    Trinity
    pyroth309 said:
    My biggest concern with these only having only having 2 cameras in the front has always been the tracking. I wish there was a 4 camera option or something to cover the back. 

    My biggest concern is that they are WMR only, lol!
    Alienware 17r4 Laptop with i7-7700hq 2.8/3.6, 32 gb ram, gtx1060 w/6gb ram, 256gb ssd, 1tb hdd, Oculus Rift w/2x sensors.  Now using an Alienware Graphics Amplifier (AGA) with Zotac gtx1080ti Blower and Asus vg248qe 144hz external monitor.  All works great!

    Also have a 64gb Oculus Go which I love for travel and quick VR Fixes.  Looking forward to the Quest!
  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,342 Volunteer Moderator
    The fact that it has a wider "eyebox" and nose guard means that they are hoping to catch more of the non-Asian market. I heard that was a common complaint with the OG Odyssey, European heads are chunkier and more rounded.
    Core i7-7700k @ 4.9 Ghz | 32 GB DDR4 Corsair Vengeance @ 3000Mhz | 2x 1TB Samsung Evo | 2x 4GB WD Black
    ASUS MAXIMUS IX HERO | MSI AERO GTX 1080 OC @ 2000Mhz | Corsair Carbide Series 400C White (RGB FTW!) 

    Be kind to one another :)
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 776
    3Jane
    edited October 24
    The rift uses Samsung screens already and there is no reason I see why Samsung would not let their partners use this tech.

    Unfortunately, it seems Samsung won't supply anti-SDE to Oculus or HTC:

    "The announcement also indicates that the anti-SDE technology is “exclusive” to the Odyssey+. Samsung supplies displays to other VR headsets like the Rift and Vive, and this particular line makes it sound like the company plans to keep the anti-SDE diffuser for their own headsets."

    And the controllers may work better than before - maybe:

    "Beyond the details already gleaned from the headset’s product page, the announcement confirms that the headset has built in Bluetooth, meaning that the controllers will connect directly to the headset instead of relying on the host PC’s own Bluetooth connection (which required an additional dongle in the case of most desktop PCs). The controllers are “pre-paired” out of the box, Samsung says, making setup a bit easier still."

    It seems that the Odyssey has already launched in the US:

    "Update (October 22nd, 2018 – 10:52PM PT): A press release from Samsung today serves as the official announcement of the Odyssey+ and confirms availability in the US starting today from Samsung and Microsoft. The headset will be available “soon” in Korea, China, Hong Kong, and Brazil. To the dismay of enthusiasts, Samsung didn’t sell the prior iteration of the Odyssey in Europe, and the Odyssey+ seems destined for the same."

    Source: https://www.roadtovr.com/samsung-odyssey-plus-price-anti-sde-display/
    Intel i7 7700K (4.2-4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS (Home/OEM); Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling at 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR" ;-)
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 4,885 Valuable Player
    edited October 24
    Why do you think Samsung have chosen not to sell it in Europe? Samsung are a strange company because they do things silly things that can effect their sales. For instances.

    I was going to buy a Samsung smart watch, but I found out that in Europe it can't be used to make calls unless it's blue-toothed to your mobile phone. In the USA you don't need your phone blue-toothed to do this and can leave it at home, So you see what I mean about silly decisions they make.

    I ended up buying a different brand Smart watch in the end because they wouldn't allow this feature to be used in European watches. Who is going to want to buy a dumbed down version of the USA version when they see what the USA version of the same watch does?


  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 776
    3Jane
    edited October 24
    RedRizla said:
    Why do you think Samsung have chosen not to sell it in Europe? 

    I really have no idea - maybe it's because Samsung doesn't want to provide 2-years warranty. Some speculate that the market is too small in Europe, but I'm having a hard time to believe that. I guess Europeans just have to find friendly sellers in the US or Asia, if they wish to import the Odyssey+. 

    Maybe there're not enough Koreans living in Europe compared to the US?  :D
    Intel i7 7700K (4.2-4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS (Home/OEM); Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling at 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR" ;-)
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