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No more Screen Door Effect (SDE) - new Samsung Odyssey+ introduces perceived 1,233 PPI level res

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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 985
    3Jane
    I hope WMR works out ok for you mate.  Even with the latest win10 1809 update my Dell headset would go black-screen after a few minutes of play.  My rift has never done this.  That's why my Dell headset is back in the box.  Quite a few users seem happy with WMR so maybe it depends on your PC and mine just does not like WMR but loves the Rift.
    Sorry to hear about your issues but that does seem specific to you/the Dell headset. What you describe sounds to me like it's probably a hardware issue. I ran into the same thing on my Rift initially actually and it was because the power across the HDMI cable was dropping too low/my HDMI port couldn't provide enough. I had to solve it with an amplifier. HDMI can be really flakey especially if you're trying to use it on a laptop GPU or using an adapter. I'd next probably suspect the USB and make sure it's not suspending power since it's happening after a time. But that's just off the top of my head. We shall see how it goes with the Samsung when I get it.
  • kojackkojack Posts: 5,017 Volunteer Moderator
    RuneSR2 said:
    As shown in this chart concerning pixel density (super sampling), 90 fps on the Odyssey+ (or Vive Pro) may be somewhat equivalent of using super sampling 1.3 or 1.4 on the Rift - thus we're forcing something like 4.4 and 5.1 mill pixels: 




    Pixel Density 1.0 is 2688x1600.
    It's not a multiplier of native panel resolution, it's the desired ratio of render texels to panel pixels in the centre of vision.
    2160x1200 (native panel) is a pixel density of around 0.8.


  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 1,780 Valuable Player
    edited October 2018
    Protocol7 said:
    pyroth309 said: 

    On a similar note, people have begun finding the Odyssey+ in the microsoft stores. Here's a guy's initial review of it.


    That is very encouraging. He says there is no visible SDE at all.
     Maybe we should bring the whole review here:

    "My Samsung Odyssey+ Review


    I just picked up the new Samsung Odyssey+ HMD from MS Store and have been playing around with it for the past hour. I own both a Rift and a Vive, and I have tried the original Odyssey before. My review will be comparing the SO+ to those headsets.


    Comfort: For me, this is the most comfortable headset I have tried. Prior to this I would say the Rift wins. The headset feels light and has good weight distribution. The foam material feels very high quality, and overall it feels more premium than either the Vive or the Rift. The only negative is that there is some light leakage from both the nose area and the periphery. Because the space around the lens is wider, it does not fully rest on my cheeks the way every other device does, thus letting some minor amount of light in. The bright side to the increased width is that it may be easier to use for people with glasses.


    Visual: The lens definitely improved since the last Odyssey. The "sweet spot" in the center is much bigger and the image is more consistently clear as you look away from the center. Oh, and there is NO SDE. At all. I've looked hard and can't see any. If I really try then I can see very tiny pixels, but only when staring at pure white. Clearly, the extra resolution helps here compared to Rift/Vive. The God Rays are on par with the Vive, and are much less intense than the Rift's. The biggest downside to the lenses: I can clearly see the concentric circles from the Fresnel lens. They are much more visible than either on the Rift or the Vive.


    Audio: The audio is SUPERB. The Rift has great audio, but the SO+'s built-in headphones are really a step beyond. I don't just mean the audio quality (which compared to my V-Moda Crossfades could use more bass), but the 3D-ness of the sound is something I have never experienced before. For comparison, using the Rift's headphones I can localize the approximate direction of a sound, but with the SO+ I can point to the exact spot in 3D space where it is coming from. I don't know what magic is being used here, but it's incredible!


    Tracking: Obviously, the controllers will get lost to tracking if you hold them behind your head. Tracking will also be poor in general if the lights are very low. Except for those two cases, the tracking seems to work great so far.


    Overall Impression: This is so far my favorite headset. It's not a generational leap but is clearly an improvement over the current V1 generation of headsets. Comfort, visual, and audio are all improved. To be perfect, it would need to have less light leakage and no visible concentric circles.


    Want to know more? Ask!


    Edit: I'm in Bigscreen right now. The text looks VERY clear! I don't need to make the screens huge to be able to read.


    Edit 2: As a test, I turned off all the lights in the room. The only light was coming from the computer screen so it was pretty dark. Tracking was still perfect! Even when I looked at the darkest parts of the room."


    To me - because I already have a nice PC - now I'd have a very hard time buying Quest over Odyssey+ (but I'd like to read more reviews). Tracking seems much similar on Quest (at least in theory). Odyssey+ is only $100 more than the Quest - and you can play many high-end PCVR games, which you cannot on the Quest. Of course it's tethered, but that'll keep me from wandering out of the VR room and falling down the stairs ;-) I really don't notice the SDE when I'm playing on the Rift (=moving as YoLolo69 described), but it's quite noticeable when using the Store, reading stationary text and watching movies. So Odyssey+ is now the perfect HMD for getting a large cinema at home? - Seems that the sound is awesome too! And with the new forced cluttered and convoluted Home 2.0, maybe some users will find that the jump to the Cliff House no longer is a big one...

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 1,780 Valuable Player
    edited October 2018
    Some comments:

    Movies:
    "With WMR there is a built-in theater so if you want to watch a movie solo you don't even need Bigscreen (although it works fine in Bigscreen). The increased resolution definitely helps. I just watched Guardians of the Galaxy with it. It's not my LG OLED TV, but it's far better than Vive. The pixels are still visible but they are much smaller than Vive's and no SDE is a huge help. [...] Yeah I agree that Rift/Vive look like 480p (I mention this in a comment below somewhere). In comparison, SO+ looks 720p. Going from SO+ back to Rift/Vive feels about the same as going from 720p to 480p on youtube."

    Light leak:
    "The light leak from nose area is about on par with the Rift. The light leak from the periphery is actually very minor and I think depends on head shape/size.

    The circles show up in both dark and bright environments, but if I'm playing a game I mostly don't notice them unless I look for them.

    I played multiple games including a long session of Lone Echo today. Looked and felt great! I haven't tried Elite Dangerous yet but I am sure that the text will be much easier to read."

    Room scale:
    "Room scale is great. Easy to set up boundaries: just walk around the room with the headset in your hands. The tracking is also great with only limitation being that controllers lose tracking when they are behind your head."

    And maybe the worrying part:
    "I tried the Rift again after using the SO+. Nope. You will never go back to the Rift. [...] Going from SO+ to Rift feels very similarly to going from 720p to 480p on youtube. You'll wonder how you ever tolerated the lower res."

    https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/9rs1n6/my_samsung_odyssey_review/

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 1,780 Valuable Player
    edited October 2018
    kojack said:

    Pixel Density 1.0 is 2688x1600.
    It's not a multiplier of native panel resolution, it's the desired ratio of render texels to panel pixels in the centre of vision.
    2160x1200 (native panel) is a pixel density of around 0.8.

    Thanks - could you share where you found that info - and maybe a more correct chart? That would be awesome! (Especially a chart going from ss 1.0 to 2.0 with correct res.) 
    Maybe we should get one for SteamVR too - at least here I tested that 100% = ss 1.4 (Oculus Tray Tool HUD Pixel Density), 120% = ss 1.55 (OTT) and 200% = ss 2.0 (OTT). Not easy to calculate/understand SteamVR ss vs. OTT ss for newcomers. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 5,307 Volunteer Moderator
    Great review mate  :) my biggest question is, it it worth the price as an upgrade to the rift or to run with the rift ? As in swap out what you are using? Do you fly sims? That's my biggest question, what are the instruments like? Can you try DCS? Or FSX or P3D? Or better still, our Flyinside sim ? Here's hoping for some feedback ;)
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 1,780 Valuable Player
    Techy111 said:
    Great review mate  :) my biggest question is, it it worth the price as an upgrade to the rift or to run with the rift ? As in swap out what you are using? Do you fly sims? That's my biggest question, what are the instruments like? Can you try DCS? Or FSX or P3D? Or better still, our Flyinside sim ? Here's hoping for some feedback ;)

    The review is from Reddit - but you can write a comment or a question here: 

    https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/9rs1n6/my_samsung_odyssey_review/
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 985
    3Jane
    edited October 2018
    Jotaku posted some through the lens. Top screen is the Plus, bottom is the old Odyssey. There is definitely some blurring like I was afraid of but I'd call that a net improvement. Plus Jotaku who owns both said the Plus definitely looks better with your eye in it of the two so yea.

    You may want to open a direct link to see the SDE - https://i.redd.it/hqytwpahfvu11.jpg



    and here's some of robo recall through the lens with a note 5 camera





    And here is his thoughts - https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/9s1ihi/samsung_odyssey_initial_test_impression_with_robo/

    I purchased the Plus today, but I have been using the Original Odyssey pretty much as my main HMD. I have the Rift, Vive, Go etc...
    The Rift games tend to be the best test for VR because the Art direction and refine graphics, so I chose Robo Recall.
    Headset Comfort:
    It is pretty comfortable, the padding is improved from the old one. The straps mechanism is the same, but the headset is slightly smaller. There is and nose open gap and you can see the floor Is comfy the weight is not bothersome
    Visuals:
    This is the main point of the headset. Is it screen door free, yes. The detail resolve in Robo Recall is very very good. No other headset at the moment can compared to it, it is simply the best looking image that you can achieve besides the new Pimax.
    Technique used is not intrusive, which essentially is that Samsung implemented a layer over the display to diffuse the pixels so we dont see the black between pixels. The implementation is very good, so kudos to Samsung for taking the initiative to find a solution without having to make every user to upgrade their GPU's
    Visual Limitations:
    Yes, now that SDE is not an issue, we can clearly see in what area the visuals can improve. More active pixels. Although you can't see distracting pixels in far away object, more pixels can help clean up the detail resolve. This is the inheritance of needing higher density displays.
    Now when I see Robots flying very high on the sky towards me, they do not look pixelated. It sort of look like the graphics of a old PS3 or Xbox 360
    Odyssey Plus VS the GO.
    The Odyssey looks to have less screen door, but also it must be taken under consideration that with the desktop computer power and the display of the Samsung O+ which have more pixels will ultimately be the factors that will make the image better than GO.The Go could look almost as good if you could power it with a powerful graphics card. That said the GO is very good at hiding the screen Door, but I the Odyssey is the current best at eliminating the SDE.
    Conclusion:
    If you absolutely 'must' rid of the SDE, there is no better headset at the moment, this HMD is for you. If you have the first gen Odyssey or the Vive pro and you are happy with it, no need to upgrade as the image is very good already. The plus looks better, but is is not a must.
    If you are into flying sims, car sim, etc.. I would say it is a welcome upgrade.
    Robo Recall Picture:
    https://imgur.com/a/6nD2nwX
    Best my old Note 5 can do
    So yea, it should be perfect for what I want it for. 

    *Edit* Some additional Comments -- 


    [–]blue5peed 2 points 2 hours ago 
    Would you describe the plus image as blurry when compared to the regular odyessy? because I think that is how people are imagining it.
    [–]Jotoku[S] 1 point 2 hours ago 
    It is not blurry, but clearly the OG feels it has more sharpness. You have to remember that there is a extra layer that is defusing the display to eliminate the screen door
    There is a 'slight' softness to the Plus image. But you would need to see one back to back to notice it


  • KlodsBrikKlodsBrik Posts: 968
    3Jane
    Naaaah ... Im still gonna wait it out for CV2 bundled with halflife 3 vr :)

    Im worried about tracking with this headset and software compatibility. 
     I love the reduced sde, but the blur, how does it add up ? .. Looking forward for more indepth reviews.
    Be good, die great !
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 985
    3Jane
    KlodsBrik said:
    Naaaah ... Im still gonna wait it out for CV2 bundled with halflife 3 vr :)

    Im worried about tracking with this headset and software compatibility. 
     I love the reduced sde, but the blur, how does it add up ? .. Looking forward for more indepth reviews.
    Halflife 3 eh, you may not be alive that long. :P

    Tracking is why it won't replace my rift completely. Software compatibility is good as it works with Revive which lets you play most of the Oculus library with it. If you notice, that's Robo Recall, a rift exclusive, that he posted images of. 
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 1,780 Valuable Player
    edited October 2018
    It's incredibly hard to judge from photos of lens images, light easily gets distorted and out of focus, often such photos are very unreliable (but al least the SDE does seem to be completely gone).

    The real test may be after one or two months - if you have both Rift CV1 and Odyssey+ which one will you be using... ;-) 

    I do like the Robo Recall photos - everything looks "real". Revive could be a serious threat to Rift CV1, we'll see... 

    Does Revive impact performance? Seems like it's possible to play Lone Echo too on the Odyssey+ - I believe some MS MR HMD owners have complained about controller issues in Lone Echo when using Revive. 
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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 985
    3Jane
    RuneSR2 said:
    It's incredibly hard to judge from photos of lens images, often such photos are very unreliable (but al least the SDE does seem to be completely gone).

    The real test may be after one or two months - if you have both Rift CV1 and Odyssey+ which one will you be using... ;-) 
    Yea, I've already bought one so I'll let you know my unbiased opinion when I get it and if it feels blurry. 
  • KlodsBrikKlodsBrik Posts: 968
    3Jane
    I live in DK and im not really a fan of ordering abroad.

    Rune, how do you approach getting the so+ in case it´s gonna be better than cv1 ( and affordable ). I mean, taxes and everything.

    Yes, offcourse im aware of revive and steam VR, but honestly, I love my rift home. Haven´t ever caused me any issues. It´s always steam vr I have to make workaround with if I have any issues.
    Be good, die great !
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 1,780 Valuable Player
    KlodsBrik said:
    I live in DK and im not really a fan of ordering abroad.

    Rune, how do you approach getting the so+ in case it´s gonna be better than cv1 ( and affordable ). I mean, taxes and everything.

    Yes, offcourse im aware of revive and steam VR, but honestly, I love my rift home. Haven´t ever caused me any issues. It´s always steam vr I have to make workaround with if I have any issues.

    My aunt lives in Chicago and comes home for Christmas ;-) Still I don't mind paying the 25% vat + $25 expedition fee + shipping, if it comes to that - it's still (much) less expensive than the Vive Pro (where you have to get base stations and controllers). It guess Odyssey+ would then cost about $700 everything included. 

    Did play Xion last night - using super sampling 2.0 image quality was razor sharp and no SDE because I'm constantly moving, same for Sacralith, had an awesome time in that game too. So Odyssey+ isn't extremely important to me, but it could be interesting to try it. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 985
    3Jane
    edited October 2018
    RuneSR2 said:
    KlodsBrik said:
    I live in DK and im not really a fan of ordering abroad.

    Rune, how do you approach getting the so+ in case it´s gonna be better than cv1 ( and affordable ). I mean, taxes and everything.

    Yes, offcourse im aware of revive and steam VR, but honestly, I love my rift home. Haven´t ever caused me any issues. It´s always steam vr I have to make workaround with if I have any issues.

    My aunt lives in Chicago and comes home for Christmas ;-) Still I don't mind paying the 25% vat + $25 expedition fee + shipping, if it comes to that - it's still (much) less expensive than the Vive Pro (where you have to get base stations and controllers). It guess Odyssey+ would then cost about $700 everything included. 

    Did play Xion last night - using super sampling 2.0 image quality was razor sharp and no SDE because I'm constantly moving, same for Sacralith, had an awesome time in that game too. So Odyssey+ isn't extremely important to me, but it could be interesting to try it. 
    Yea that's my concern with the Odyssey is the softness from the blur. I mean clearly it's still going to be better than what I can generate on my Rift with a Gtx 1080 as I can only run most games around 1.4 or 1.5 SS but it may cause me to upgrade again to another headset sooner than I plan to if the softness causes issues at longer distances. At this point, i won't know until my actual eyeballs are in the lens I suppose. I know enough to know that I still want one and not gonna cancel the order lol. I still haven't played Fallout 4 VR as I haven't been in the mood for it, this headset is probably going to motivate me since I won't have to jump through any hoops to play it properly. 
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 1,780 Valuable Player
    And here's how to get the Odyssey+ for $400 (maybe ;-)

    https://m0ntsn0w0.com/samsung-hmd-odyssey/?cli_action=1540727645.748

    It's also available in the Microsoft Store, although sold out for the moment:

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/Samsung-HMD-Odyssey/8N2D0NK20P8M?activetab=pivot:overviewtab
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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,705 Volunteer Moderator

    They say the fresnel concentric circles are very visible, plus reduced god rays but they are still there. Sounds like a tradeoff and a bit half-baked, more a demo for the new screen tech.

    What I would love to see would be those new screens with GO optics, which so far I find superior to everything I tried out I played with the following at a games expo in UK recently (VIVE, VIVE PRO, PSVR, Rift, and WMR(dell)" .. PSVR had pretty clever lenses but because they are glass, they had a strange chromatic quality to them that I didn't like, it's as if you KNOW you are looking through glass. 

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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 985
    3Jane
    edited October 2018

    They say the fresnel concentric circles are very visible, plus reduced god rays but they are still there. Sounds like a tradeoff and a bit half-baked, more a demo for the new screen tech.

    What I would love to see would be those new screens with GO optics, which so far I find superior to everything I tried out I played with the following at a games expo in UK recently (VIVE, VIVE PRO, PSVR, Rift, and WMR(dell)" .. PSVR had pretty clever lenses but because they are glass, they had a strange chromatic quality to them that I didn't like, it's as if you KNOW you are looking through glass. 

    Yea, I own a PSVR and I have the same opinion. My main problem with the PSVR though isn't the headset itself. It's the terrible graphics quality and low resolution in most of the games. Looking past like the equivalent of 15 feet in game and it's all just an ugly blurry mess. Games that focus on action up close work pretty well with it though like Astrobot. Wipeout actually did a good job with the graphics also. A lot of the other titles though... yeesh.

    I also saw that about the circles. Curious design choices there for sure. I hope someone gets a video up soon. If this headset is a bust I'm just gonna bite the bullet and go all in on Pimax 5k+/2080 TI. 
  • kojackkojack Posts: 5,017 Volunteer Moderator
    RuneSR2 said:
    kojack said:

    Pixel Density 1.0 is 2688x1600.
    It's not a multiplier of native panel resolution, it's the desired ratio of render texels to panel pixels in the centre of vision.
    2160x1200 (native panel) is a pixel density of around 0.8.

    Thanks - could you share where you found that info - and maybe a more correct chart? That would be awesome! (Especially a chart going from ss 1.0 to 2.0 with correct res.) 
    Maybe we should get one for SteamVR too - at least here I tested that 100% = ss 1.4 (Oculus Tray Tool HUD Pixel Density), 120% = ss 1.55 (OTT) and 200% = ss 2.0 (OTT). Not easy to calculate/understand SteamVR ss vs. OTT ss for newcomers. 
    There's two ways to get the numbers:
    1 - use the oculus debug tool to set the pixel density, then turn on the layer hud (also in the debug tool) and put the headset on. The density and res will be shown.
    2 - call the sdk's function that calculates the resolution.

    One way to do the second is to grab my Oculus Monitor tool: https://forums.oculusvr.com/community/discussion/69471/oculus-monitor
    It has a slider for pixel density that tells you the Oculus calculated res and the megapixel size. :)

    It's a clean multiplier from the 1.0 res though. For example density 2.0 is double the 1.0 res on both axes

    I haven't ever looked at SteamVR SS to see what it's doing. I should check it out.

  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 985
    3Jane
    edited October 2018


    One way to do the second is to grab my Oculus Monitor tool: https://forums.oculusvr.com/community/discussion/69471/oculus-monitor
    It has a slider for pixel density that tells you the Oculus calculated res and the megapixel size. :)

    It's a clean multiplier from the 1.0 res though. For example density 2.0 is double the 1.0 res on both axes

    I haven't ever looked at SteamVR SS to see what it's doing. I should check it out.

    Oh wow, I never knew about your Monitor tool, I will have to check that out when I get home this evening. 
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 1,780 Valuable Player
    edited October 2018
    pyroth309 said:

    Jotaku posted some through the lens. Top screen is the Plus, bottom is the old Odyssey. 



    The top image doesn't look sharper than the bottom one, to me the bottom picture looks *much* sharper (even my wife mentioned that). As I've said in an earlier post, this could of course be due to the camera and the HMD lens distorting the light and causing blur. I can't imagine Samsung would state 1,233 ppi if the Odyssey+ didn't look much sharper than the original Odyssey. 

    Then again - maybe the black spaces between lines are where the visual cortex in our brains make up something beautiful. Our visual cortex works much like a giant computer, it only needs 4 points to make a square, no matter if you want to see the square or not (that's why we can create illusions to fool the brain). Thus our visual cortex constructs images in our consciousness out of limited sensory information. I do wonder if the SDE in CV1 affects the visual cortex making us perceive sharper images than without the SDE. Like the scanlines I've mentioned before - like this:




    And:



    vs.:



    Personally I prefer the images with scanlines, the pixels become much too noticeable without scanlines (I did read a similar observation from a Vive Pro owner mentioning that he could start to notice the pixels in images much like in pancake games). I wonder if the SDE creates the perception of a higher/sharper res than the CV1 has on paper. My primary concern with the total removal of the SDE is if the image quality becomes too pixelated (which of course won't happen if the res is high enough - and maybe it's high enough on the Odyssey+ if the res truly works like 1,233 ppi). 

    I grew up with the old arcade machines on CRT screens, I've always felt that CV1 gave me back some of that magic - although it was quite annoying when watching movies. 

    Note that this post is not to defend the SDE, it's just to provide a perspective that may or may not explain why the image from the Odyssey+ could look less sharp than the image from the original Odyssey. 
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  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 5,307 Volunteer Moderator
    Lol been playing retro games with the kids on the Nintendo mini today, ahhh such fun, the original Zelda brings back hours of fun memories but its bad when a 4 year old says the screen looks a mess  :D
    A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.
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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 985
    3Jane
    edited October 2018
    I'm inclined to believe the guy when he says it looks better than the original Odyssey as he owns both. Plus he posted this of him watching a movie and it looks good. This clarity will be worth it for the Pron alone! 

    https://imgur.com/a/YXRAc4u

    Looks plenty sharp enough to me here. What is bothering me though is the rings are pretty visible. 





  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 1,780 Valuable Player
    pyroth309 said:
    I'm inclined to believe the guy when he says it looks better than the original Odyssey as he owns both. Plus he posted this of him watching a movie and it looks good. This clarity will be worth it for the Pron alone! 

    https://imgur.com/a/YXRAc4u

    Looks plenty sharp enough to me here. What is bothering me though is the rings are pretty visible. 






    Agreed, the quality does look nice/great. Then we just need a blu-ray 3D VR player (so I can watch my bd 3d discs in VR without having to re-encode - that would be awesome!)
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,705 Volunteer Moderator
    Yeah of concern here are the rings, reduced but not eliminated god rays (the GO lenses are the best ones I have seen on any headset so far, including the PSVR ones, there may be no god rays on psvr but they have an odd quality to them)

    Also, chromatic aberration is visible?

    Imagine this screen with GO lenses!
    Core i7-7700k @ 4.9 Ghz | 32 GB DDR4 Corsair Vengeance @ 3000Mhz | 2x 1TB Samsung Evo | 2x 4GB WD Black
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    Be kind to one another :)
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 985
    3Jane
    edited October 2018
    I asked him about the rings and he replied with this.

    I notice the rings in these pics pretty prominently. Is that how it is to you when watching?

    [–]Jotoku[S] 1 point just now 

    Not while you are watching it. The camera is not ideally align to give the most accurate look. There are rings just like the Vive and Odyssey

    So yea, I am back to my original plan of letting my order go through and using this until another generation of Video cards come out then I'll see what's happening with Pimax/CV2/whatever and jump up big. It at least solves that question about the perceived resolution. Nothing is going to solve that except more resolution lol.
  • MAC_MAN86MAC_MAN86 Posts: 1,462
    3Jane
    edited October 2018
    Just like anything else you get used to it and it becomes no longer there.
    I see no screen door effect in my Rift.
    I don't see a door neither. What door?


    If you bought one would it be possible to launch all your Oculus Store Games? I guess it just needs them placed in its directory?
  • hoppingbunny123hoppingbunny123 Posts: 391
    Nexus 6
    whats happening with the blur is the pixel light is getting caught on something when its traveling through the screen used to reduce sde.

    pyroth309 said:





    the top picture is the one with the reduced sde, look at how much dimmer it is compared to the bottom one.

    now look at the same picture a piece of enlarged 500 percent, look the the left picture to see no sde and the right one to see sde, and look at the left one to see the colors in the middle blending;



    why its blurry is the screen used to stop sde is not stopping the light from pixels blending into adjacent screen. this makes the pixel light touching other pixel light absorbed if the light isnt white, which reduces the brightness of the color and makes the color more washed out.

    if they used my idea the pixel light would be kept in its own part of the screen and would be crisp and colorful.
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 985
    3Jane
    edited October 2018
    Yea if you don't think the first picture is blurrier you should go see an Optometrist lol. It immediately looked blurry to me which is why I kept digging for answers. I wonder how supersampling will look with the blurring. It might look even worse

    I imagine even a blurred image at the higher Odyssey resolution will still look better than the Rift does but that's still the dilemma i'm struggling with. I want a headset for simming and I'm kind of skeptical at this point that a blurred image is going to be better for small text. On the flip side, I have to spend more than 3k to roll with pimax and wont' have it for at least 3 months and probably more than 6 lol. I wish someone would throw up a through the lens video. Doesn't seem the youtube crowd has gotten one yet.

    The concentric circles also seem like they would be irritating. I didn't personally notice them in the time I tried a Vive but I wasn't looking for them either.
  • hoppingbunny123hoppingbunny123 Posts: 391
    Nexus 6
    edited November 2018

    the only way this could provide any benefit is if the spaces in the panel not lit by a pixel were lit somehow.

    the resolution doesnt change. the pixels still show what they show = resolution. but the spaces between pixels are filled.

    split the pixel light over two spaces using something like the fiber optic toy that sends light down plastic fiber to;
    - the space over the pixel and
    - the space between pixels beside the pixel

    https://www.scientificsonline.com/product/fiber-optic-light-wand

    its cheap to make the fiber optic strand, just lead it to from the original individual pixel and guide it to two spaces, the fiber lights up the space not lit by a pixel.

    the benefit isnt increased resolution but loss of screen door effect.

    to separate pixels you will need very fine thin walls between spots the fiber sends light too. and extra light being sent out probably means more light nits have to be used.

    better yet is when you add in the fiber cable is to not add in walls where the space was before which would split the light of the pixel up into two, but there should be a fiber cable up to the top of the pixel too so if you added walls then the pixel light would have been split up into three, which would darken the pixel unnecessarily.

    just use one fiber cable, its base is a small size, then the fiber cable is enlarged on its end to cover the gaps above and beside the pixel.

    you just need to package the fibers together somehow. with really ultra thin walls.

    edit. i drew a picture to show how to design the fiber so there is a gap-less picture sheen so zero sde.


    the fiber fits through the hole on the socket to hold the fiber in place. the fiber is small over the pixel and enlarged on the end to cover to gap between pixels above and beside the pixel.

    the problem with using a light transport like the fiber cable is the light will be absorbed which will make the light dim. you need to coat the walls of the fiber cable with a reflective coating to send the light shining one wall onto the other wall, but the top and bottom of the cable is not coated with a reflective surface and is able to send and receive light from the pixel.

    paint the walls of the cable white.



    it occurred to me that the screen could be glass, in telecoms the fiber can be glass. to fabricate them just mold clear glass, and paint the walls white leaving the top and bottom walls un-painted.

    the light from the screen back light will always send light to the glass, so the white walls of the glass will always reflect some light being sent out of the pixel. but this light might be dim. theres no guarantee the back light will shine through the pixel.

    a solution to always have some light being reflected off the walls of the glass from the pixel is to make a wall have a translucent tint painted gap, and facing the translucent tinted gap is a little light bub or light led, some source of light.

    shine the light onto the glass painted white wall across from the translucent tined gap shining light from the light source, and the light source light will be
    - collected by the pixel light, and that makes the pixel light bright,
    - and that sends light from the pixel onto the white wall which is seen by the eye.

    because its a small space, you dont fit an entire red green blue light bulb in there, just white light, a tiny impossibly small light bulb.

    here's a picture of what i think it would look like;



    why a translucent tint though and not white light? a translucent tint light source will make the black more visible and the colors have more punch. a white light on the black pixel would make the white shine on top of the black like a reflection.

    the good thing about this design is you just scale up the screen to fit in the glass bulb putting light through the translucent tinted gap in the glass.

    on a different note, vr god rays;



    the rings seen and the god rays are the same thing, the light is shining on the dark and lighting them up. the dark getting light in the rings shows the rings, and the dark getting light on the lens not the ring part brightens the dark part of the lens and is seen as god rays.

    the light is diffused, if you put a magnifying glass in-between the screen which is what sends the light, and the lenses which have a sweet spot in the middle, you could focus the diffused light to get rid of the god rays and move the focused light to the sweet spot to light that up.

    here i will show a picture, the diffused light that makes the rings and god rays on the left, the one with the magnifying glass on the right, same light source.



    the center being lit up you have a specific area of the lens to add a transparent tint too to get rid of the halo.

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