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Steam Hardware Survey - Rift vs. Vive and WMR - results from March 2020 included

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  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,163 Valuable Player
    edited April 3
    ...Now I may be wrong of course.
    Well thanks for being open to that possibility at least. 

    There isn't a single tool that I can think of that's functionality changes depending on how hard you squeeze it. 
    Well here is one from 1993:



    EDIT - oh and someone just PM'ed me another example:



    Wow, another wall of text - thanks @snowdog - will pass on further taking this post in a "interesting" direction, and focus on the OP. But always appreciate your passionate point of view. 
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  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,163 Valuable Player
    edited April 3
    This news will impact the CV1 numbers, and could prove confusing.

    This also kind of makes it a bit weird for where the Lenovo Rift-S first into the mix, as it was meant to be the replacement to the CV1 with production ending. This news may confirm rumors that the Lenovo/Oculus relationship has hit a hard patch, with Lenovo now supporting Varjo's high-end VRPC system, (fall out from the Quest Link situation). 

    But at least shows that OculusVR are still considering in supporting the CV1 platform:

    Oculus is Selling Refurbished Original Rifts for $300

    https://www.roadtovr.com/oculus-selling-refurbished-original-rifts-300/

    urdgfqqehbbb.png
    ** Second New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • OmegaM4NOmegaM4N Posts: 777
    3Jane
    ^^^^First the Quest link cable and now refurbished CV1 bundles........FB going out of its way to throw a spanner into Rift S sales. lol

    Of course a $300 paper weight if the cable of this refurbished unit goes belly up within that 12 month warrenty, but a even bigger question is how would they deal with a faulty cable in warrenty now they no longer have or make them?
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,163 Valuable Player
    I think with the last executive supporters of PCVR leaving last year for the Facebook AR project, the remaining teams at OculusVR focused on Quest with the sales explosion, and abandoned any additional investment @OmegaM4N - this would have explained the slow support for Rift-S issues that many complained about, and also why Lenovo went so quiet. Quest Link seems to have been a painful surprise for Lenovo, the same way that Samsung was "surprised" during their partnership.

    Would not be surprised to see a Quest2 in six-months that has a dedicated PCVR support (dedicated Link), and that would be the end of any possibility of a CV2 - though would still keep the PCVR scene alive, though placing the Rift-S on the shelf. I wonder how much this will be blamed retroactively on the Global Heath crisis?

    urdgfqqehbbb.png
    ** Second New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,332 Valuable Player
    edited April 3
    kevinw729 said:
    I think with the last executive supporters of PCVR leaving last year for the Facebook AR project, the remaining teams at OculusVR focused on Quest with the sales explosion, and abandoned any additional investment @OmegaM4N - this would have explained the slow support for Rift-S issues that many complained about, and also why Lenovo went so quiet. Quest Link seems to have been a painful surprise for Lenovo, the same way that Samsung was "surprised" during their partnership.

    Would not be surprised to see a Quest2 in six-months that has a dedicated PCVR support (dedicated Link), and that would be the end of any possibility of a CV2 - though would still keep the PCVR scene alive, though placing the Rift-S on the shelf. I wonder how much this will be blamed retroactively on the Global Heath crisis?

    I would be surprised to see any high-end PCVR move from Oculus in the near-future too. Horizon is probably taking up a lot of Oculus' time.
    Seems that Valve/Steam is taking over high-end PCVR, also with the Reverb G2 coming up - which I would not be surprised to see with full support for Knuckes and Base Stations 2.0. Especially as the major problems of the Reverb are the controllers and the tracking. 


    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,163 Valuable Player
    edited April 3
    RuneSR2 said:
    ...
    I would be surprised to see any high-end PCVR move from Oculus in the near-future too. Horizon is probably taking up a lot of Oculus' time.
    Seems that Valve/Steam is taking over high-end PCVR, also with the Reverb G2 coming up - which I would not be surprised to see with full support for Knuckes and Base Stations 2.0. Especially as the major problems of the Reverb are the controllers and the tracking. 
    .....

    Totally agree - and to be frank, have been saying this since 2017, after the first round of Half-Dome departures to Microsoft. I think the loyal supporters were hanging on for a CV2 that never appeared, and was superseded by the Rift-S compromise. Holding out hope for the Half-Dome3 may pay out in the long run, but we are talking the current generation rather than wild speculation on 2022 possibilities!

    It seems the PCVR community (which is now more filled with Enterprise developers) is split between HP (as a replacement to their CV1's and Vives), the Cosmos Elite (for those looking at replacing their Vive Pros) and the remainder working with Varjo and Index (I will leave Pimax out at this point). There is a lot of interest in HP's Reverb G2 with its Valve and WinMR support - this could really impact Cosmos Elite, and even be a cost-effective Index solution for the consumer base (especially if bundled with HL:A).

    Plainly, Oculus putting all its eggs in the Rift-S department to stay relevant in the PCVR scene has not really paid off as hoped, though those Steam numbers are not as bad as CV1 or Oculus Go take up for the same period. Its just that focusing on Standalone is the order of the day, while they work on the secret MR headset hybrid - hoping to supersede Quest and Rift-S, and embrace the parent companies AR investment.   
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    ** Second New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,507 Valuable Player
    The Rift S is still selling a shitload, and the Quest 2 won't be able to hold the tech inside the Half Dome prototypes unless things change regarding cooling and mobile hardware during the next few years. Why on earth would Oculus stop work on PCVR when it's still selling well and when putting the Half Dome tech into a standalone headset would be a pipe dream?

    As for the AR/MR plans from Facebook and Oculus we're years away from seeing that happening because, as I've already mentioned, the hardware isn't there yet to do it at an affordable price. In terms of tech we're not even at the stage that VR was at with the DK1. We won't see Facebook/Oculus releasing an AR or MR headset for another 5 years at least.

    We'll see the Rift 2 being released with the Half Dome features in two years time and won't see the Quest line of products having Half Dome features for AT LEAST three years after that, if at all.

    You don't have a brand as strong as the Rift and stop development of it. Same goes for the Quest too. They'll continue to release both headsets going forward, with the Rift line using new technology which will filter down eventually to the Quest line once it becomes cheap enough to include in the headsets.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

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  • dburnedburne Posts: 3,537 Valuable Player
    LOL, maybe they are waiting for Half Dome 4 or even 5. 
    RIP Rift, it will all be Quest based going forward in my opinion.
    If they continue building upon what they have already accomplished with Quest Link, may not necessarily be a bad thing as it would still have very good PC-VR capabilities.

    Just take a good look at the release notes in these later versions of the Oculus software, most all focus is on Quest.
    Don

    EVGA Z390 Dark MB | I9 9900k| EVGA 2080Ti FTW3 Ultra |32 GB G Skill 3200 cl14 ram | Warthog Throttle | VKB Gunfighter Pro/MCG Pro grip | Crosswind Pedals | EVGA DG 87 Case| Rift S | Quest |
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,163 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:
    .......
    You don't have a brand as strong as the Rift and stop development of it. Same goes for the Quest too. They'll continue to release both headsets going forward, with the Rift line using new technology which will filter down eventually to the Quest line once it becomes cheap enough to include in the headsets.

    As always some interesting and colorful points.

    But, regarding that last point - I remember some posters saying exactly the same thing when we discussed if Samsung and Oculus had stopped working on the GearVR... and look what happened there!
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    ** Second New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,720 Volunteer Moderator
    I think Valve and Steam plays at least some part in Oculus'/Facebook's decision making process on how much resource to spend on PCVR or stand-alone development.

    Valve wants to absorb as many headset owners into their software platform as they possibly can. If they could sell software to xbox and PlayStation owners too, they would (that seems to be possible now at some level).

    Now, say for example some upstart company appears and starts selling VR headsets that have their own software vending platform, and in addition, VR looks to have a potential of rivalling the PC pancake gaming establishment, big-time, in the future.

    That's a threat to Valve and the answer is for Valve to get a VR headset out there that rivals Oculus' hardware and get software on Steam that not only competes with Oculus' platform but can be used by Oculus users as well as its own headset and anyone else's.... and attract Oculus users and minimise the potential threat of a rival software platform.

    From Oculus point of view, or the point of view of any other company with aspirations of building a hardware/software ecosystem to rival Steam.... what do you do? 

    They could continue to sell PCVR headsets at (or near) cost, in order to build a software/hardware ecosystem further. If so, they'd have to continue to invest lot of money into software over a very long period of time before they get to any kind of parity with Steam, if that's ever possible.

    Or, they just give up on the idea of being competitors to Steam on the PCVR front and just sell PCVR headsets for as much profit as is sustainable and have that as the business model.

    Or concentrate on standalone development which is a harder business for Valve to supress without a headset that's better than Quest.

    I hope Oculus continue with PCVR but from a business point of view, I think it's the toughest route. I'm also definitely not one of the people thinking Valve are generous because they've invested in one great VR game and didn't make it an Index exclusive... I feel it's part of a roadmap to mitigate risk of competition, maintain a monopoly, simple as that.

    So, I'm less optimistic about future PCVR hardware from Oculus than I used to be. The other side of the coin though... having been using my Quest more than I though I would.. I'm pretty optimistic about stand-alone.

    Just my take... and sorry, I typed more than I thought, but we've all got more time on our hands these days.
    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v1909 (18363.836)
  • OmegaM4NOmegaM4N Posts: 777
    3Jane
    FB could own the PCVR market completly rigth now by simply releasing a revised Quest with some sort of dedicated display port or mini HDMI addition, keep the present charge port, and keep the present Quest price point, and they would rule the VR world over night. lol
  • dburnedburne Posts: 3,537 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:

    You don't have a brand as strong as the Rift and stop development of it. Same goes for the Quest too. They'll continue to release both headsets going forward, with the Rift line using new technology which will filter down eventually to the Quest line once it becomes cheap enough to include in the headsets.
    Hand tracking.
    Double tap passthrough.
    Customizable resolution.
    Sharper image in center versus edges to help in performance.
    New Universal Menu.

    I would say it is fast becoming the opposite, with the new Technology focus now going to the Quest, with filtering to Rift  remaining to be seen.

    Don

    EVGA Z390 Dark MB | I9 9900k| EVGA 2080Ti FTW3 Ultra |32 GB G Skill 3200 cl14 ram | Warthog Throttle | VKB Gunfighter Pro/MCG Pro grip | Crosswind Pedals | EVGA DG 87 Case| Rift S | Quest |
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,720 Volunteer Moderator
    OmegaM4N said:
    FB could own the PCVR market completly rigth now by simply releasing a revised Quest with some sort of dedicated display port or mini HDMI addition, keep the present charge port, and keep the present Quest price point, and they would rule the VR world over night. lol
    That's true if you see selling hardware as the PCVR market.

    I think the PCVR market isn't won by selling hardware, it's won from selling the software. The hardware is probably a very small part of the business if it's sold at or near cost. The business from Facebook's point of view is number of users and the vending environment that those users buy and use their software, Valve saw that a long time ago.

    Using a Quest as a Rift continues to feed into both Valve and Oculus, but to maintain that, Facebook have to continue to plough money into PCVR software to compete and even then Valve have the advantage (technical developments like ASW notwithstanding) and will win out in the end. So I think Facebook's investment (or a good proportion of it) would just go to Valve in the end.

    Using Quests as Quests is where Facebook can cultivate a userbase protected from Valve and I think is now more attractive to Facebook for that reason.
    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v1909 (18363.836)
  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 4,158 Valuable Player
    edited April 5
    IF oculus are no longer  that interested in having a pure pcvr headset in the mix themselves and they just view PCVR as a nice extra to supplament their standalone devices then there is less reason than ever to not open up their store officially to other headsets imo. I really hoped openXR would start the ball rolling on this. But it hasn't (yet?)
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  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,163 Valuable Player
    .......
    That's a threat to Valve and the answer is for Valve to get a VR headset out there that rivals Oculus' hardware and get software on Steam that not only competes with Oculus' platform but can be used by Oculus users as well as its own headset and anyone else's.... and attract Oculus users and minimise the potential threat of a rival software platform.
    ........

    Thanks for this (long) reply from you - can see your getting a little stir crazy  B)

    Just one observation on this point, I think its hard to justify saying the Valve development of a headset was an answer to a threat just appearing. I think we have to admit that Valve kicked off this current phase of VR investment with their VR Room and support of the other platform. This did not stop them from developing their tech that fueled HTC, but was inevitably leading to this, and the next Valve headset. I know that there may be some local bias, but Valve really was pivotal and all roads have head to their Index and Index controller - even if its seen to keep their software monoplane.

    ........
    Or, they just give up on the idea of being competitors to Steam on the PCVR front and just sell PCVR headsets for as much profit as is sustainable and have that as the business model.

    Or concentrate on standalone development which is a harder business for Valve to supress without a headset that's better than Quest.

    I hope Oculus continue with PCVR but from a business point of view, I think it's the toughest route. I'm also definitely not one of the people thinking Valve are generous because they've invested in one great VR game and didn't make it an Index exclusive... I feel it's part of a roadmap to mitigate risk of competition, maintain a monopoly, simple as that.
    So, I'm less optimistic about future PCVR hardware from Oculus than I used to be. The other side of the coin though... having been using my Quest more than I though I would.. I'm pretty optimistic about stand-alone.

    Just my take... and sorry, I typed more than I thought, but we've all got more time on our hands these days.

    I think that the optimism that some posters across the forums pushed for a strong future PCVR approach from OculusVR has started to diminish as the reality of the Quest hits home. I know this has been hard for some to comprehend, and I also hope that this is totally not the end, and that it just means we will have to wait considerably longer than some hope. That said, waiting any longer than 24-months for another PCVR offering will mean that the market has transformed so considerably that the CV2 would bare no resemblance with the previous incarnation and would have to be treated as a totally new thing. That would place the Rift in the same boat as the GearVR.
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    ** Second New Book **
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  • kojackkojack Posts: 6,424 Volunteer Moderator
    dburne said:
    Double tap passthrough.
    The Quest just got double tap pass through toggle 2 weeks ago, the Rift-S has had it since at least may 2019.




  • dburnedburne Posts: 3,537 Valuable Player
    edited April 5
    kojack said:
    dburne said:
    Double tap passthrough.
    The Quest just got double tap pass through toggle 2 weeks ago, the Rift-S has had it since at least may 2019.




    Mmm I did not know that will have to check out thanks for the clarification.
    Rift S was released in late May 2019 so it has had it all along? Surprised I missed it.
    Don

    EVGA Z390 Dark MB | I9 9900k| EVGA 2080Ti FTW3 Ultra |32 GB G Skill 3200 cl14 ram | Warthog Throttle | VKB Gunfighter Pro/MCG Pro grip | Crosswind Pedals | EVGA DG 87 Case| Rift S | Quest |
  • dburnedburne Posts: 3,537 Valuable Player
    edited April 5
    kojack said:
    dburne said:
    Double tap passthrough.
    The Quest just got double tap pass through toggle 2 weeks ago, the Rift-S has had it since at least may 2019.

    You may have to clarify this one for me as I don't see it.
    Understand I am not talking about pressing the Oculus button on Touch twice, I am talking about tapping the side of the headset twice with a finger. And I can attest it works quite well.

    From the Version 15 Release notes in Quest:
    Experimental Features
    • Passthrough Shortcut - You can now enter Passthrough to see your real world surroundings at any time. Once you’ve enabled the feature, double tap the side of your headset to enter Passthrough. When you're finished, double tap again to return to VR.

    Don

    EVGA Z390 Dark MB | I9 9900k| EVGA 2080Ti FTW3 Ultra |32 GB G Skill 3200 cl14 ram | Warthog Throttle | VKB Gunfighter Pro/MCG Pro grip | Crosswind Pedals | EVGA DG 87 Case| Rift S | Quest |
  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 5,450 Volunteer Moderator
    I’ve expressed my opinions on this subject before, but personally I’d be surprised if Oculus continued with separate PC and stand-alone headset product lines. Their work on Link points to the future of both categories. I fully expect the next Oculus device to be a stand-alone with a considerably more powerful processor, and built-in wireless PCVR connectivity.

    If they’re going to sell new tech at low margins to build their ecosystem, there are better economies of scale by having one model rather than two nearly identical ones. The only real difference between Quest and Rift is the on-board compute and battery, which could both contribute to advancing PCVR by enabling tetherless play (the on-board processor would decode the video and handle the tracking to minimize the streamed data). 
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  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,163 Valuable Player
    Obviously it now looks that the previous comments that were presented back in 2019's OC6 that the company would be focusing on Standalone,  has become in fact the core focus of the operation now. The move towards Half-Dome technology is more as research and "beauty project", rather than something that will seriously be fielded in the next 24-months (if not later). Those that thought a CV2 was round the corner with this tech will be waiting longer than they hoped. Not-with-standing, elements of HD tech may find some expression in the Quest 2, or the MR hybrid secret project, but really the PCVR side is not a focus, and the exodus of execs' leading in high-end than Standalone, underlines that point. 

    You seem to confirm my opinion @nalex66 that the company is based on pushing its ecosystem, and achieve its parents founders statement for mass adoption, and that PCVR is not able to achieve that so is cast aside. The compromise in trying to be seen to still care for that sector with the Lenovo deal seems to have placated some, but the compromises in the final release hardware still stick with many in the PCVR community. I find it funny that while we discuss the short coming with the Rift-S we have never seen a Lenovo voice on the forums (any forums) [obviously OculusVR does not comment either.] 
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    ** Second New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,720 Volunteer Moderator
    nalex66 said:
    I’ve expressed my opinions on this subject before, but personally I’d be surprised if Oculus continued with separate PC and stand-alone headset product lines. Their work on Link points to the future of both categories. I fully expect the next Oculus device to be a stand-alone with a considerably more powerful processor, and built-in wireless PCVR connectivity.

    If they’re going to sell new tech at low margins to build their ecosystem, there are better economies of scale by having one model rather than two nearly identical ones. The only real difference between Quest and Rift is the on-board compute and battery, which could both contribute to advancing PCVR by enabling tetherless play (the on-board processor would decode the video and handle the tracking to minimize the streamed data). 
    I think you're probably right here.
    And although I don't see Oculus owning PCVR going that route, as @OmegaM4N mentions, he has a point that many more future iterations of Quests will be sold if PC connectivity is developed further, which in turn will lead to Quest software development and investment hopefully.

    If (or when) wireless connectivity comes to Quest, it'll be interesting to see how many people buy and use it as a Quest rather than a Rift. If too few people use it as a Quest it could slow down investment in stand-alone Quest software and we're back to a very PCVR dominant future, which I see as ultimately a hardware only business for anyone other than Valve.
    IF oculus are no longer  that interested in having a pure pcvr headset in the mix themselves and they just view PCVR as a nice extra to supplament their standalone devices then there is less reason than ever to not open up their store officially to other headsets imo. I really hoped openXR would start the ball rolling on this. But it hasn't (yet?)
    I can't quite figure out what a final outcome is for an open Oculus platform. A lot of non-Oculus headset owners would use it for sure, for a proportion of the time but I think it still comes down to the same thing, Facebook needing to invest large amounts in software to build that platform to attract whatever headset, unless larger proportions of the established dev companies bring more VR games to the table, a lot quicker than they seem to be.

    If Oculus aren't making big profits on their own headsets, would they make decent enough returns on the software investment alone? They don't have anything other than VR software to sell, unlike Valve who have a broad church of pancake sofware sales as a cash cow. And things won't change for a while... with 1.29% of Steam users having a VR headset after 4 years, there's still painfully little incentive for all the other sofwtare devs to get involved yet.

    Maybe the answer is for an open Oculus platform and Oculus to start selling pancake as well as VR games. Then we have a properly competative market.
    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v1909 (18363.836)
  • kojackkojack Posts: 6,424 Volunteer Moderator
    dburne said:
    kojack said:
    dburne said:
    Double tap passthrough.
    The Quest just got double tap pass through toggle 2 weeks ago, the Rift-S has had it since at least may 2019.

    You may have to clarify this one for me as I don't see it.
    Understand I am not talking about pressing the Oculus button on Touch twice, I am talking about tapping the side of the headset twice with a finger. And I can attest it works quite well.

    From the Version 15 Release notes in Quest:
    Experimental Features
    • Passthrough Shortcut - You can now enter Passthrough to see your real world surroundings at any time. Once you’ve enabled the feature, double tap the side of your headset to enter Passthrough. When you're finished, double tap again to return to VR.

    I don't consider tapping the side of the headset to be any different to double tapping the home button, in both cases the  actual feature is being able to turn passthrough on and off at will, which the Rift-S got in may 2019 and the Quest got 2 weeks ago after 10 months of people complaining it wasn't there.

  • dburnedburne Posts: 3,537 Valuable Player
    edited April 5
    kojack said:
    dburne said:
    kojack said:
    dburne said:
    Double tap passthrough.
    The Quest just got double tap pass through toggle 2 weeks ago, the Rift-S has had it since at least may 2019.

    You may have to clarify this one for me as I don't see it.
    Understand I am not talking about pressing the Oculus button on Touch twice, I am talking about tapping the side of the headset twice with a finger. And I can attest it works quite well.

    From the Version 15 Release notes in Quest:
    Experimental Features
    • Passthrough Shortcut - You can now enter Passthrough to see your real world surroundings at any time. Once you’ve enabled the feature, double tap the side of your headset to enter Passthrough. When you're finished, double tap again to return to VR.

    I don't consider tapping the side of the headset to be any different to double tapping the home button, in both cases the  actual feature is being able to turn passthrough on and off at will, which the Rift-S got in may 2019 and the Quest got 2 weeks ago after 10 months of people complaining it wasn't there.

    So you are saying the Quest did not have pass-through functionality until this latest release of the software?
     In any event I think it is a cool feature, especially if one happens to not be holding the controller at the time and needs a quick glance around.
    Don

    EVGA Z390 Dark MB | I9 9900k| EVGA 2080Ti FTW3 Ultra |32 GB G Skill 3200 cl14 ram | Warthog Throttle | VKB Gunfighter Pro/MCG Pro grip | Crosswind Pedals | EVGA DG 87 Case| Rift S | Quest |
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,507 Valuable Player
    dburne said:
    snowdog said:

    You don't have a brand as strong as the Rift and stop development of it. Same goes for the Quest too. They'll continue to release both headsets going forward, with the Rift line using new technology which will filter down eventually to the Quest line once it becomes cheap enough to include in the headsets.
    Hand tracking.
    Double tap passthrough.
    Customizable resolution.
    Sharper image in center versus edges to help in performance.
    New Universal Menu.

    I would say it is fast becoming the opposite, with the new Technology focus now going to the Quest, with filtering to Rift  remaining to be seen.


    I was referring to hardware technology, not software. Basically the Half Dome prototype features are highly unlikely to be included in the Quest 2 for the following reasons:

    1) The hardware is too expensive to include eye tracking, foveated rendering and a varifocal feature in the Quest because the Quest has a shitload of mobile phone hardware, heatsink and fans inside it.

    2) The hardware is currently too bulky to include in the Quest 2 because the Quest 2 has a shitload of mobile phone hardware, heatsink and fans inside it.

    3) Even if they upgrade the APU for the Quest 2 it's going to be a waste of time because it won't be able to handle 4K displays at a decent framerate, even with foveated rendering, so one of the headset's main selling points (4K displays) wouldn't apply to using it as a standalone headset.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,507 Valuable Player
    nalex66 said:
    I’ve expressed my opinions on this subject before, but personally I’d be surprised if Oculus continued with separate PC and stand-alone headset product lines. Their work on Link points to the future of both categories. I fully expect the next Oculus device to be a stand-alone with a considerably more powerful processor, and built-in wireless PCVR connectivity.

    If they’re going to sell new tech at low margins to build their ecosystem, there are better economies of scale by having one model rather than two nearly identical ones. The only real difference between Quest and Rift is the on-board compute and battery, which could both contribute to advancing PCVR by enabling tetherless play (the on-board processor would decode the video and handle the tracking to minimize the streamed data). 
    I think you're probably right here.
    And although I don't see Oculus owning PCVR going that route, as @OmegaM4N mentions, he has a point that many more future iterations of Quests will be sold if PC connectivity is developed further, which in turn will lead to Quest software development and investment hopefully.

    If (or when) wireless connectivity comes to Quest, it'll be interesting to see how many people buy and use it as a Quest rather than a Rift. If too few people use it as a Quest it could slow down investment in stand-alone Quest software and we're back to a very PCVR dominant future, which I see as ultimately a hardware only business for anyone other than Valve.
    IF oculus are no longer  that interested in having a pure pcvr headset in the mix themselves and they just view PCVR as a nice extra to supplament their standalone devices then there is less reason than ever to not open up their store officially to other headsets imo. I really hoped openXR would start the ball rolling on this. But it hasn't (yet?)
    I can't quite figure out what a final outcome is for an open Oculus platform. A lot of non-Oculus headset owners would use it for sure, for a proportion of the time but I think it still comes down to the same thing, Facebook needing to invest large amounts in software to build that platform to attract whatever headset, unless larger proportions of the established dev companies bring more VR games to the table, a lot quicker than they seem to be.

    If Oculus aren't making big profits on their own headsets, would they make decent enough returns on the software investment alone? They don't have anything other than VR software to sell, unlike Valve who have a broad church of pancake sofware sales as a cash cow. And things won't change for a while... with 1.29% of Steam users having a VR headset after 4 years, there's still painfully little incentive for all the other sofwtare devs to get involved yet.

    Maybe the answer is for an open Oculus platform and Oculus to start selling pancake as well as VR games. Then we have a properly competative market.

    Facebook aren't interested in making money in the short term because they're in the process of building brands. They haven't made $500m+ in sales in their Stores that they've given to developers and aren't expecting to. Zuckerberg said as much a while back.

    They're in this for HUGE long term financial rewards. This is why you'll NEVER see Facebook dropping the Oculus brand to bring a Facebook branded HMD to market, unless Zuckerberg decides to lost the plot. Their plan is to have a brand so strong that there's an Oculus headset in MOST homes around the world in the future, and being used for work purposes too. We're talking about 3.5bn+ Oculus headsets using the Oculus platform and most likely ad revenue playing a part too.

    We're not talking about the next few years, we're probably talking about 5-10 years time.

    Oculus will continue to release Quest and Rift lines of headsets, and they MIGHT even continue with the Go line.

    By the time Zuckerberg has finished that ~$3bn that he paid for Oculus will look like a bargain, and the investment of the century.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,507 Valuable Player
    My bloody neighbours next door are having an issue with how loud my telly is. They keep knocking on the wall.

    It's not as if it's late either, they knocked on the wall at around 11pm, but I've turned it down just in case they're working for the NHS or as a delivery driver or something.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,163 Valuable Player
    edited April 5
    snowdog said:
    My bloody neighbours next door are having an issue with how loud my telly is. They keep knocking on the wall.

    It's not as if it's late either, they knocked on the wall at around 11pm, but I've turned it down just in case they're working for the NHS or as a delivery driver or something.

    you sure they are "knocking" on the wall!


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  • dburnedburne Posts: 3,537 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:
    dburne said:
    snowdog said:

    You don't have a brand as strong as the Rift and stop development of it. Same goes for the Quest too. They'll continue to release both headsets going forward, with the Rift line using new technology which will filter down eventually to the Quest line once it becomes cheap enough to include in the headsets.
    Hand tracking.
    Double tap passthrough.
    Customizable resolution.
    Sharper image in center versus edges to help in performance.
    New Universal Menu.

    I would say it is fast becoming the opposite, with the new Technology focus now going to the Quest, with filtering to Rift  remaining to be seen.


    I was referring to hardware technology, not software. Basically the Half Dome prototype features are highly unlikely to be included in the Quest 2 for the following reasons:

    1) The hardware is too expensive to include eye tracking, foveated rendering and a varifocal feature in the Quest because the Quest has a shitload of mobile phone hardware, heatsink and fans inside it.

    2) The hardware is currently too bulky to include in the Quest 2 because the Quest 2 has a shitload of mobile phone hardware, heatsink and fans inside it.

    3) Even if they upgrade the APU for the Quest 2 it's going to be a waste of time because it won't be able to handle 4K displays at a decent framerate, even with foveated rendering, so one of the headset's main selling points (4K displays) wouldn't apply to using it as a standalone headset.
    There is no Quest 2 yet.
    Nor Half Dome Device either.
    ;) 
    But I will lay odds we will see a Quest 2 long before a Rift CV2.
    Don

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  • kojackkojack Posts: 6,424 Volunteer Moderator
    dburne said:
    So you are saying the Quest did not have pass-through functionality until this latest release of the software?
     In any event I think it is a cool feature, especially if one happens to not be holding the controller at the time and needs a quick glance around.
    The Quest has had passthrough since the beginning (crap passthrough, then replaced with the reprojected passthrough+ which is much better).
    But it had no way to turn passthrough on and off at will while playing a game. The only way to see passthrough was to move out of the guardian area or go to settings and enable the guardian configuration.

    I've theorized in the past on here that the reason was a safety concern, people are more likely to wander further with a Quest in passthrough, and could get into accidents because the old passthrough had incorrect world scale (the cameras don't match your eye IPD). With passthrough+ it's less of an issue, but still unwise. :)

    But the Rift-S had the ability to turn on passthrough at any time with a double tap on the home button.

    Passthrough toggle during a game and finger tracking are two areas where there's a feature parity between Rift-S and Quest (same controllers, both can do passthrough) but Oculus limited it to one headset (Rift-S for toggle and Quest for fingers), at least until now for the toggle.

    Anyway, it would be nice to see that VR survey permission dialog pop up at some point. I've got 3 different VR headsets plugged in, but the last time I had a survey request was years ago.
  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 5,450 Volunteer Moderator
    ...If (or when) wireless connectivity comes to Quest, it'll be interesting to see how many people buy and use it as a Quest rather than a Rift. If too few people use it as a Quest it could slow down investment in stand-alone Quest software and we're back to a very PCVR dominant future, which I see as ultimately a hardware only business for anyone other than Valve.
    I think Quest will become the “gaming console” of VR—not quite as powerful as a high-end gaming PC, but more accessible (in terms of cost and ease-of-use). Already, we see several games that have ported to Quest very well, and a future version with more power will further bridge the gap. As it becomes more dominant than PC in terms of user base, developers will put more effort into porting games to it, as we’ve seen in the PC/console gaming market. PC gamers may scoff at the comparatively weak consoles, but they’ve come to dominate gaming to the point that very few developers remain PC-only. I see no reason why VR wouldn’t follow the same path. 
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