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Steam Hardware Survey - Rift vs. Vive and WMR - results from October 2020 included

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  • OmegaM4NOmegaM4N Posts: 1,092
    Wintermute
    OmegaM4N said:
    ^^^Might be publicly used business hmds that are now being burned in a huge fire pit as no one will now use them. Lol

    Was at the ConExpo 2020 (Construction Expo) in Vegas just last week - everybody using a HMD was using either a CV1 or Rift S (apart from one who had an OG Vive).  Nobody mentioned worrying about the virus at that time to be honest, although they were mainly "proper blokes" who drove diggers and cranes for a living    :smile:
    Sit in a railway bothy at lunch time and listen to a proper bloke with fingers and toes missing, who is in the bothy toilet trying to drop a HTC Cosmos through his bleeding piles......you will then know what a true proper bloke is. Lol
  • Hiro_Protag0nistHiro_Protag0nist Posts: 5,006 Valuable Player
    edited March 20
    There's staying at home on your 5 acre estate with swimming pool and hot tub then there's staying at home in your Peckham flat.





  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 6,366 Volunteer Moderator
    edited March 20
    Be sensible about things though, going outside isn't a problem if you're staying away from other people... if you're not touching things other people touch. Dogs should still be walked, groceries should still be bought (washing your hands afterwards). For example, ordering deliveries of food is a bad thing to do if you're taking those delivery resources away from people who are self isolating and you're just social distancing, everything has consequences.

    Walking outside really isn't the problem unless you can't stop yourself from bumbing into people. But if it helps explain my balance of risk... I cut my own hair yesterday rather than go to the barbour and if you could see the reults, you'd appreciate how seriously I'm taking this! 

    Anyway, we're probably getting off subject! Just to go back to the Steam survey.... I think maybe a more probable cause for the small decline is that there's always going to be a drift away from any new toy after a while (for some people). If the tech is good, more people start playing with it than stop, but if the new supply of headsets dries up, you're just left with that small negative drift.

    Well like I say, a possible cause!
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 7,114 Valuable Player
    edited March 21
    Btw, it's my impression that far too few have tried Stormland, and of course graphics like used in Stormland don't come cheap. I don't recall any game pushing more polys than Stormland. I'm not joking when saying that to me a walk in Stormland feels extremely refreshing and revitalizing (in the quiet locations without enemies) - maybe even more than talking a walk in the real world - the pics below aren't some paintings made to make Stormland look better than it is - this really is Stormland:




    Of course this isn't SteamVR - but you can Revive Stormland using non-Oculus hmds (preferably if you have a 2080 Ti, cough ;))

    If there ever was a time to stay home and use your HMD, now is the time!
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  • RattyUKRattyUK Posts: 1,191
    Wintermute
    RuneSR2 said:
    if you have a 2080 Ti, cough
    everyone takes a virtual 2 metres step back
    This thread is now in self-isolation...  B)
    I picked up Boneworks again, now that it has a save feature (I couldn't get past one of the bits in the very early game) and have spent a few happy, puzzling, hours in-game the last couple of days...  All in preparation for Alys, of course :)
    Steam nowadays seems better on the Rift S than previously, all good :)

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    Rift S
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  • Nekto2Nekto2 Posts: 370
    Trinity
    RuneSR2 said:
    ...
    January 2020 = 1.31%
    February 2020 = 0.97 %

    It's kinda worse than going 6 months back, it does not make sense to me. Now, a few weeks ago I did read somewhere that some users with Rift connected experienced that Steam didn't register the CV1 in the survey. That could explain the massive CV1 reduction, but still some CV1s did get counted. Not sure corona can be blamed for the massive reduction from 1.31% to 0.97% (about 35% reduction). I guess we should take the current results with a grain of salt...

    More people had Steam installed and they are not vr gamers? They have more time to play games but have no hmd.
    Those are %, not an absolute numbers. So there could be more vr headsets.

    Let's see % of CV1/S after HL launch ;) Those without Steam could install it.
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,871 Valuable Player
    It will be crazy to see the February / April figures - will be the clearest idea of what the shape of the consumer VR scene is as "those that have it have been using it" in the current climate. Will be a once in a lifetime snapshot of the Steam platform at full stretch. The servers for Steam and PornHub must glow in the dark!
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  • kojackkojack Posts: 7,058 Volunteer Moderator
    Nekto2 said:
    RuneSR2 said:
    ...
    January 2020 = 1.31%
    February 2020 = 0.97 %

    It's kinda worse than going 6 months back, it does not make sense to me. Now, a few weeks ago I did read somewhere that some users with Rift connected experienced that Steam didn't register the CV1 in the survey. That could explain the massive CV1 reduction, but still some CV1s did get counted. Not sure corona can be blamed for the massive reduction from 1.31% to 0.97% (about 35% reduction). I guess we should take the current results with a grain of salt...

    More people had Steam installed and they are not vr gamers? They have more time to play games but have no hmd.
    Those are %, not an absolute numbers. So there could be more vr headsets.

    Let's see % of CV1/S after HL launch ;) Those without Steam could install it.
    Yep, plus unlike the Oculus hardware surveys, the Steam survey is only given to a random selection of people, not everybody. I've read that it may be weighted to be more likely to select people with recent hardware changes.

    If Steam hasn't explicitly asked you to take part in the survey, your headset hasn't been counted.



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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 7,114 Valuable Player
    edited March 25
    kojack said:
    Nekto2 said:
    RuneSR2 said:
    ...
    January 2020 = 1.31%
    February 2020 = 0.97 %

    It's kinda worse than going 6 months back, it does not make sense to me. Now, a few weeks ago I did read somewhere that some users with Rift connected experienced that Steam didn't register the CV1 in the survey. That could explain the massive CV1 reduction, but still some CV1s did get counted. Not sure corona can be blamed for the massive reduction from 1.31% to 0.97% (about 35% reduction). I guess we should take the current results with a grain of salt...

    More people had Steam installed and they are not vr gamers? They have more time to play games but have no hmd.
    Those are %, not an absolute numbers. So there could be more vr headsets.

    Let's see % of CV1/S after HL launch ;) Those without Steam could install it.
    Yep, plus unlike the Oculus hardware surveys, the Steam survey is only given to a random selection of people, not everybody. I've read that it may be weighted to be more likely to select people with recent hardware changes.

    If Steam hasn't explicitly asked you to take part in the survey, your headset hasn't been counted.




    Agreed, but if Steam asks just 1% of 100 million users, statistics should be solid (unless there're some general detection issues) . 

    There may be tons of disconnected hmds out there, thus number of sold hmds is not the same as active hmds (same goes for connected hmds that might not be used). So it is what it is - and I wonder what we'll see in April and maybe May (March numbers may not be high before March 23). 
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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • Star-lizardStar-lizard Posts: 347
    Trinity
    I have had steam turned off for months , so my VR headset won't show
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,871 Valuable Player
    kojack said:
    ......
    Yep, plus unlike the Oculus hardware surveys, the Steam survey is only given to a random selection of people, not everybody. I've read that it may be weighted to be more likely to select people with recent hardware changes.

    If Steam hasn't explicitly asked you to take part in the survey, your headset hasn't been counted.

    This has been a complaint from the start - though it was overlooked when ever it favored one camp or another, and validates their perceived optics.  

    For some time we have been suggesting that a more rational means to gauge the number of "operational" headsets in the consumer market is needed. The importance of this is not just to show which headset is leading, but so the smaller developers (and in many cases the AAA studios) can gauge if there is a market worth investing their limited resources to develop for. The "walled garden" approach to disseminating information on market penetration is by a mentality of "corporate secrets", when publicly claiming to encouraging the growth of a market, (unless you want to only fixate on your platform rather than the market as a whole).

    For me the Valve Steam VR headset survey has to be taken with a "bag" of salt, with the extrapolations needed to be made for:

    - This is a selective survey rather than a mass counting
    - Only solicited users are completing surveys
    - Multiple headset owners can only complete survey once
    - There are individuals completing surveys who are not eligible
    - Surveys have been sent out on occasion to picked users
    - Numerous occasions fraudulent survey entries have been made
    - Having to depend on the "Vampire [Valve] to manage the Blood-bank"!
    - Only applies to headset users approached using Steam

    As was said on another forum - using the Steam survey to gauge the penetration of VR into the consumer market is like using Alcoholics Anonymous to guess how many pubs there are!

    But as the man said, its the best we have till the next thing comes along!

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  • kojackkojack Posts: 7,058 Volunteer Moderator
    Valve are fixing up the VR hardware survey.

    They are changing it to include every headset you've had connected during the last month, instead of just the one that is plugged in when the survey is taken.
    They are also going to include more headsets, including Pimax and even PSVR (which apparently you can use with Steam with some third party tools).

    The story doesn't say if more people will get the survey.

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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 7,114 Valuable Player
    edited April 1
    kojack said:
    Valve are fixing up the VR hardware survey.

    They are changing it to include every headset you've had connected during the last month, instead of just the one that is plugged in when the survey is taken.
    They are also going to include more headsets, including Pimax and even PSVR (which apparently you can use with Steam with some third party tools).

    The story doesn't say if more people will get the survey.


    Did see that Valve added more hmds a few days ago - and new colors - new numbers caused the amount of hmds connected to rise from 0.97% to 1.01 % - so for now no big changes (Quest is now included, but 0.05% seems too low...?):



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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 2,352 Valuable Player
    Nice, I just complained about that a few posts up on march 20th. I only have 1 HDMI port on my GPU so I normally utilize it for other things when I'm not playing VR. 
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 7,114 Valuable Player
    I wonder if Steam can see my CV1 sensors - these and the Index are always connected, but I've deactivated the usb-port connecting the CV1 hmd when I use SteamVR. Probably won't skew March survey results much though, lol. 
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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • OmegaM4NOmegaM4N Posts: 1,092
    Wintermute
    edited April 1
    RuneSR2 said:
    kojack said:
    Valve are fixing up the VR hardware survey.

    They are changing it to include every headset you've had connected during the last month, instead of just the one that is plugged in when the survey is taken.
    They are also going to include more headsets, including Pimax and even PSVR (which apparently you can use with Steam with some third party tools).

    The story doesn't say if more people will get the survey.


    Did see that Valve added more hmds a few days ago - and new colors - new numbers caused the amount of hmds connected to rise from 0.97% to 1.01 % - so for now no big changes (Quest is now included, but 0.05% seems too low...?):




    Same amount of Quest users connected to steam VR as did PSVR users, does not look right seeing as the Quest is just one cable and you are off, whereas to get the PSVR to offer up its limited 3DOF on the PC is a pain in itself....so call me Susan and slap me with a wet kipper if these figures don't end up being way off target. lol
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,871 Valuable Player
    kojack said:
    Valve are fixing up the VR hardware survey.
    .....
    The story doesn't say if more people will get the survey.


    Nice to see that Valve was force to listen to the criticisms. Funny we outlined these issues a few posts back, the time must be right for them to bite the bullet. I wonder if its the successful reception of HL:A that forced their arm. With all of the key management of Valve out of the US at the moment, I wonder if this was a move planned to happen or was forced on them?
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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 8,054 Valuable Player
    I'm quite surprised that the Rift S is selling more than three times as much as the Index. Makes you wonder how much it would have sold if Valve hadn't blatantly taken the piss with their price gouging for their base stations and Index controllers. :o
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

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  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,871 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:
    I'm quite surprised that the Rift S is selling more than three times as much as the Index. Makes you wonder how much it would have sold if Valve hadn't blatantly taken the piss with their price gouging for their base stations and Index controllers. :o

    Understand your resentment of the brand @snowdog but is it really "gouging" [meaning overcharge or swindle]?

    The company selling a new concept controller into the market - there is no similar system (making it unique), and is part of a "premium" VR experience. The same way that the Pimax and the Varjo are "premium" VR experiences and charge a high price. Also many people felt that the Lighthouse tech was superior to the alternatives, and so could be sold at a higher price (though to be frank the price of a new Lighthouse setup was cheaper than a three camera constellation!)

    Just because you don't like the price (or the company) seems rash to jump in and call them swindlers unless you know they are profiteering from the bill of goods, and if you know that can you point us to the source?
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 7,114 Valuable Player
    A factor limiting the Index is that it's basically unavailable. Rift-S is also difficult to get, but it seems like Oculus is able to supply more, indicated by some availability from time to time on the Oculus website or other dealers like Amazon. In comparison Index has been sold out for months with some units made available March 9. Even with full availability Index isn't expected to sell more than Rift-S, but it would probably have sold a lot more right now due to Alyx if it was widely available ;)
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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,871 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    A factor limiting the Index is that it's basically unavailable.
    .....

    Seems to be a key point @RuneSR2 - on numerous VR forums I follow, it seems to be the main point that if people could get a Index they would buy it (also many point to wanting to try the Index controllers). Seems that Valve's decision to go low scale, even running their own fab - may come round to bite them in the short term, but they know that with a possible cheaper Index 2.0 on the horizon that they will win out. 

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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 8,054 Valuable Player
    kevinw729 said:
    snowdog said:
    I'm quite surprised that the Rift S is selling more than three times as much as the Index. Makes you wonder how much it would have sold if Valve hadn't blatantly taken the piss with their price gouging for their base stations and Index controllers. :o

    Understand your resentment of the brand @snowdog but is it really "gouging" [meaning overcharge or swindle]?

    The company selling a new concept controller into the market - there is no similar system (making it unique), and is part of a "premium" VR experience. The same way that the Pimax and the Varjo are "premium" VR experiences and charge a high price. Also many people felt that the Lighthouse tech was superior to the alternatives, and so could be sold at a higher price (though to be frank the price of a new Lighthouse setup was cheaper than a three camera constellation!)

    Just because you don't like the price (or the company) seems rash to jump in and call them swindlers unless you know they are profiteering from the bill of goods, and if you know that can you point us to the source?

    It's the very definition of price gouging. Those 2.0 base stations cost $40 or so to manufacture. If I made a headset for SteamVR using Lighthouse tracking Valve would charge me $40 or so (might be 45 or 49, can't remember the exact figure offhand) plus shipping for me as a manufacturer to include those base stations with my headset.

    Valve were shouting from the rooftops that the 2.0 versions were cheaper to manufacture than the 1.0 versions when they were first revealed. And if you buy these things from Valve as a customer they're MORE expensive than the 1.0 ones from HTC.

    It's pretty disgraceful tbh.

    And with regards to the Index controllers they're using the EXACT SAME TECHNOLOGY as the Touch controllers, just tracking more fingers. You can add a bit to manufacturing cost for the squeeze sensing as well as the light sensors but even taking those things into consideration they're still overpriced compared to Touch controllers.
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  • ShocksVRShocksVR Posts: 571
    Neo
    edited April 1
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  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,871 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:
    ......
    It's the very definition of price gouging. Those 2.0 base stations cost $40 or so to manufacture. If I made a headset for SteamVR using Lighthouse tracking Valve would charge me $40 or so (might be 45 or 49, can't remember the exact figure offhand) plus shipping for me as a manufacturer to include those base stations with my headset.

    Valve were shouting from the rooftops that the 2.0 versions were cheaper to manufacture than the 1.0 versions when they were first revealed. And if you buy these things from Valve as a customer they're MORE expensive than the 1.0 ones from HTC.

    It's pretty disgraceful tbh.

    And with regards to the Index controllers they're using the EXACT SAME TECHNOLOGY as the Touch controllers, just tracking more fingers. You can add a bit to manufacturing cost for the squeeze sensing as well as the light sensors but even taking those things into consideration they're still overpriced compared to Touch controllers.

    As always, I understand your perspective against Valve and can see as always your passion for the subject.

    I am interested that you have the parts cost for the base station is that based on your assumptions or from a actual credible source, would love to read that?
    Am also interested in your experience manufacturing headsets, have you done that before, or is this again an assumption just to color your point? Just asking.

    Yes, I remember your criticism of the Knuckles, and all the jokes you made about it being rubbish and amounted to nothing. I think we can agree that its more than just a Touch with more buttons! - but hey if that is what your belief system tells you, we are all entitled to our opinion, but I think even you can see that's a stretch, (have you actually used Index controls dude?)

    Hey, I am not disagreeing that all VR tech in the consumer scene is over priced - and all manufacturers need to take a cold hard look in the mirror. Though picking on one manufacturer and not roping all of them in, and even defending others seems myopic to say the least.

    Anyway, I think we have squeezed enough out of this lemon, and not to derail the post, I am jumping back to the OP, but as always - thanks for sharing your view. 
    2xan55713klf.png
    https://vrawards.aixr.org/
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,871 Valuable Player
    ShocksVR said:

    Thanks for sharing @ShocksVR - now we get closer to their internal reality. 
    Obviously Valve will not want to make a hard change to the real stats till they have had time to gradually adjust. And the announcement of the "new" survey policy will be fascinating to watch more of a change to a real Steam VR usage number. 

    The Quest number was also a fascinating (addition) jump, wonder how long the survey guys have been watching that number grow and wondering when they would have to admit it and include it into the numbers. The mind boggles about the PSVR entry, and if this is a error with users thinking the question in the survey was "what you own", rather than use?

    But again its the question about this being a survey of selected Steam VR users - being used to justify the consumer VR user percentage (apple against oranges). It will be interesting to see as with the Rift-S superseding the CV1, when we see the HTC Vive superseded by Cosmos Elite, or Valve Index sales? 

    2xan55713klf.png
    https://vrawards.aixr.org/
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 8,054 Valuable Player
    kevinw729 said:
    snowdog said:
    ......
    It's the very definition of price gouging. Those 2.0 base stations cost $40 or so to manufacture. If I made a headset for SteamVR using Lighthouse tracking Valve would charge me $40 or so (might be 45 or 49, can't remember the exact figure offhand) plus shipping for me as a manufacturer to include those base stations with my headset.

    Valve were shouting from the rooftops that the 2.0 versions were cheaper to manufacture than the 1.0 versions when they were first revealed. And if you buy these things from Valve as a customer they're MORE expensive than the 1.0 ones from HTC.

    It's pretty disgraceful tbh.

    And with regards to the Index controllers they're using the EXACT SAME TECHNOLOGY as the Touch controllers, just tracking more fingers. You can add a bit to manufacturing cost for the squeeze sensing as well as the light sensors but even taking those things into consideration they're still overpriced compared to Touch controllers.

    As always, I understand your perspective against Valve and can see as always your passion for the subject.

    I am interested that you have the parts cost for the base station is that based on your assumptions or from a actual credible source, would love to read that?
    Am also interested in your experience manufacturing headsets, have you done that before, or is this again an assumption just to color your point? Just asking.

    Yes, I remember your criticism of the Knuckles, and all the jokes you made about it being rubbish and amounted to nothing. I think we can agree that its more than just a Touch with more buttons! - but hey if that is what your belief system tells you, we are all entitled to our opinion, but I think even you can see that's a stretch, (have you actually used Index controls dude?)

    Hey, I am not disagreeing that all VR tech in the consumer scene is over priced - and all manufacturers need to take a cold hard look in the mirror. Though picking on one manufacturer and not roping all of them in, and even defending others seems myopic to say the least.

    Anyway, I think we have squeezed enough out of this lemon, and not to derail the post, I am jumping back to the OP, but as always - thanks for sharing your view. 

    Have just started a thread on Reddit about it, can't find a link so you'll have to wait for one.

    And I have NEVER said that the Index controllers were rubbish, just that developers won't be using the tracking for all of the fingers for anything apart from being able to waggle your fingers just for the sake of being able to waggle your fingers. There'll be an exception to the rule here and there but generally you won't see developers tracking them. You could amputate those two fingers from your hands and you wouldn't miss them that much unless you play a musical instrument, drink tea in a posh manner and do the Heavy Metal sign regularly.

    And you don't need to be experienced in manufacturing headsets and controllers to know that the Touch controllers and Index controllers use capacitive sensors to track fingers. This is a well known fact. Google it.

    All manufacturers don't need to take a cold hard look in the mirror. Pimax are charging more for their headset because they've released headsets a clear step ahead of other manufacturers in terms of sepcs - bigger FOV, higher resolution. The WVR headsets are reasonably priced. All of the Oculus headsets are sold at cost.

    HTC and Valve are the only two headset manufacturers that need to be given grief for their pricing. You can understand HTC going a bit crazy with it because they're desperate to keep their lights on, but the Valve Index's price is just plain ridiculous. For nearly a grand I'd expect a headset to have a Pimax sized FOV and resolution, the Index headset is a 1600p headset, the Rift S - £520 cheaper to buy - is a 1440p headset.

    But it's the price gouging that Valve REALLY need to be taken to task for. It's just plain greedy.

    Here you go, it was $60 plus shipping...I was obviously thinking of the value in Pounds Sterling, not USD:

    https://www.roadtovr.com/developers-now-receiving-steamvr-2-0-base-stations/
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,871 Valuable Player
    Thanks as always for your clarification @snowdog - understand that you implied it was rubbish from a developers perspective rather than saying it was.  B)

    2xan55713klf.png
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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 8,054 Valuable Player
    kevinw729 said:
    Thanks as always for your clarification @snowdog - understand that you implied it was rubbish from a developers perspective rather than saying it was.  B)


    Again, I haven't said that it's rubbish from a developer's viewpoint. If a developer can find some way to make an exclusive Index game that takes advantage of the Index controller's features it would be very useful for them. But this hasn't happened yet, not even Valve have done it.

    There isn't a single tool that I can think of that's functionality changes depending on how hard you squeeze it. Same goes for a tool that depends on the pinky and ring fingers.

    It's just bad design for a controller's extra features. Any developer with any sense (including Valve) will develop for the lowest common denominator (in this case the godawful WVR controllers). Now they MIGHT allow for functionality for tracking of the thumb and index finger (because that's a key feature that both the Touch controllers and Index controllers have), so that switches can be flicked, thumbpads can read thumbprints etc, but when using a lowest common denominator controller (such as the crappy WVR ones) they'll just have the blending for the animation changing from an open hand to a pointing finger or a thumbs up automatically when the player's WVR controller/hand gets within a certain distance of the in game object that the player needs to interact with. And when the player with Touch or Index controllers do the same thing, the blending is dependant on the cap sensors instead.

    From a game design perspective the ability to track all of the fingers is about as useful as a chocolate teapot unless, as I've already mentioned, you decide to waggle your fingers for the sack of waggling fingers.

    Now I may be wrong of course, someone may come up with an Index exclusive game that can ONLY be played using the added features of the Index controller, but I doubt that it's going to happen.

    Oculus could have added tracking for all four fingers, but chose not to because there's no point in doing so. Valve have just added those features for the sake of having added features. And those added features will be rarely, if ever, used for anything useful. Someone might come up with a piano/guitar/[Insert alternative instrument here] lesson app but, again, without that tactile instrument in player's hands it'll be a bit pants. You won't be able to learn a thing because (and I'm talking as a keyboard, bass and guitar player) having a real instrument is completely different to having an imaginary one. You won't get tactile feedback which is essential when learning to play an instrument.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
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