How close are we to deep dive/full immersion VR ? — Oculus
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How close are we to deep dive/full immersion VR ?

Will it happen within our lifetime ( in 20-50 years)?

By using Elon Musk's Neuralink (Neural Lace 2039???) ,NerveGear, nanobots, mind uploading maybe?

And if we were to achieve this would anyone still want to live in the real world apart from people who are maintaining the system and certain religious groups?(or at least take breaks from full dive VR)

And is this inevitable? 

Comments

  • Digikid1Digikid1 Posts: 1,991 Valuable Player
    Hope not.  That is a line that should NEVER be crossed.
  • MAC_MAN86MAC_MAN86 Posts: 2,262
    Wintermute
    People are already living in a "human zoo". Single men get labelled MGTOW (”Men Going Their Own Way”). Much like single-parent females. Hardly interested in humans nor the outdoors but instead save up for holidays abroad. Once they get over cabin fever they are in their own world. Given the alternative of having to support another human plus being trapped by unplanned offspring with debts incurred from borrowing way too much to finance it all and then considering it falling apart and giving away half your assets then life in VR can be a reality. No doubt many of you are there right now! I bet most of us did worry in apprehension what if we prefer VR to daily life? I thought this just as getting into fps was getting more real and made me still think I was a Soldier walking on dark footpaths or in my car treating it like I could handbrake it around corners. People will sure enough become zombies!
  • Nekto2Nekto2 Posts: 254
    Nexus 6
    It would be great to work in VR, but live in real life :lol:
    You could change your colleges avatars to kitties. And you will save time on way to work.

  • LuluViBritanniaLuluViBritannia Posts: 462
    Trinity
    That will never happen. The "full dive" technology (like the one in Sword Art Online, or Matrix, or in any other VR show) requires a direct link to the brain, which means: reading and writing the brainwaves. Reading the brain electric signals is fairly easy and already feasible today ; writing them, on the other hand, is simply not possible as it requires surgery to implement a ton of electrodes.

    Full dive isn't necessary anyway. People need to understand that Virtual Reality is not a replacement of reality. It's a middle step between virtual worlds and the real one. As a computing technology, it will stick to audiovisual and haptics, and does not need to go further.

    It's not forbidden to dream, of course ^^, but don't take fantasies as realistic expectations. Full dive is just that : a fantasy. It's very cool in the movies, but seeing it as the future of VR will only bring the real VR down.
    Current VR results imo:
    - Great small apps. Great ports of bigger games.
    - Great VR-specific features. Not enough showcased!!!
    - Too many actors in the industry, the market is totally broken.


    My hopes for VR next gen:

    - Better ratio between visual quality and power needs. No more godrays and less SDE.
    - Full Body Tracking.


    "If you don't mind, do you want me to take you there? Where dreams come true."
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,368 Valuable Player
    edited November 2018
    Not 100% true tho... We could get very close with in the next 100-200 years as from as full brain read and writing. Granted how we do it might bring up questions - but we can already give some sight back to people that lost their eye with a fake eye. Sure it's early stages - but we already shown we can do both to a basic understanding. With in the next say 50 years I could see us already having most of our inputs trick using some sort of feedback system. Touch, temperature, taste, sight, and smell right now has research papers already in how close we can get. Right now - I seen different technology in their early stages giving off demos of what they can do with those already. Taste and smell going to be the hardest to replicate while touch, temp, and sight being something we could have in the next 25 years to blow us away currently.

    In the next 25 years:
    1) We will have figured out a way to increase pixel count to a point you can't see them and with soo many it will be hard to know if you are looking at a real wall or a fake one (8k res with 16k upscaling or more).

    2) We will have feedback systems that will recreate temperature and touch for our hands for both input and more realism. 

    3) We will have switch from LCD or very close to switching from them into eye focus projections.

    4) Glasses style VR will be a thing instead of the bulky design we have now. I say - at least 75% smaller than they are now at least.

    5) We will have flat lenses that will allow us to take away bulk - smaller designs - increase FOV - and adjustable focal points. 

    6) Focal points will be a thing along with Eye tracking and FOVA rendering.

    7) Built in hardware that revivales computer hardware (it might come in a box instead you strap to your side).

    8) Inside out tracking - allowing us to have freedoms that current static tracking doesn't allow

    9) Early ideas on how we can move and do things without having to have a controller anymore

    10) Increase FOV to a point it matches or closes matches your current FOV. There will be people saying it goes over their current eye rotations and others saying they still see black boxes if they move their eyes in a direction.

    11) We will have figure out a way to track your mouth for avator usage. With eye tracking - we will also use that for aviators too. Taking this one step more - possible just scan your full face before you put it on.

    12) AR with VR will be a thing - VR will support AR elements that will allow passthrough gaming and sight so will not want have to take it off as much. 

    13) With scale - we will instead be doing 1 - 1.5 - 2 - 2.5 - 3 - 3.5 - 4. The .5 are refreshes that include the newest tech but may not include new designs. Time between refreshes will be something in the 3-4 year range enough time for them to release a new HMD on every level - PCVR - Basic VR - Mobile VR. The idea here is that they will move features up focusing/squeezing as much performance as they can from the lowest device (micro optimizing) and applying that to the highest.
  • LuluViBritanniaLuluViBritannia Posts: 462
    Trinity
    I was sure somebody would bring up the bionic eyes topic ^^, which is why I kept this link warm:

    https://www.allaboutvision.com/conditions/bionic-eyes.htm

    I quote: "the current implant has only 60 electrodes. To see naturally, you'd need about a million."
    In order to get only one "VR eye" you would need about a million electrodes. Double that to get the full view in full dive. Then, count how much you would need for touch, temp, taste and everything else.
    Now give me the price of the whole system. I know one electrode is very cheap, but millions of it? Plus the cost of the surgery operation? 

    It's simply not a viable solution, hence it won't happen.
    For example, in the case of the sight, the current system (one screen in front of each eye) can already give you a proper result without the need of any surgery. Once the current issues have been resolved (resolution, FOV and lenses), VR systems will already give a proper sight in VR without any surgery.
    Current VR results imo:
    - Great small apps. Great ports of bigger games.
    - Great VR-specific features. Not enough showcased!!!
    - Too many actors in the industry, the market is totally broken.


    My hopes for VR next gen:

    - Better ratio between visual quality and power needs. No more godrays and less SDE.
    - Full Body Tracking.


    "If you don't mind, do you want me to take you there? Where dreams come true."
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,368 Valuable Player
    edited November 2018
    I was sure somebody would bring up the bionic eyes topic ^^, which is why I kept this link warm:

    https://www.allaboutvision.com/conditions/bionic-eyes.htm

    I quote: "the current implant has only 60 electrodes. To see naturally, you'd need about a million."
    In order to get only one "VR eye" you would need about a million electrodes. Double that to get the full view in full dive. Then, count how much you would need for touch, temp, taste and everything else.
    Now give me the price of the whole system. I know one electrode is very cheap, but millions of it? Plus the cost of the surgery operation? 

    It's simply not a viable solution, hence it won't happen.
    For example, in the case of the sight, the current system (one screen in front of each eye) can already give you a proper result without the need of any surgery. Once the current issues have been resolved (resolution, FOV and lenses), VR systems will already give a proper sight in VR without any surgery.
    They said the same thing only a 100 years ago about computers. I say it's really early stages. The fact that it can be done gives reasons - that cost and production could make it fairly cheap over a given time. Along with time - improve on the system so maybe wont take a million points - but a sensor they can track million points. 

    One way would have it resets itself over and over creating a image out of scan lines instead of raw input data. Do this fast enough - it wouldn't require half of what it take to recreate that image. What - 240 times? Cut that number in half if you up your grid array to double and then you can shut it down to 120 fps. Granted I am just using numbers here as I don't know how much resolution an eye can really see to how many electroids it takes to get a line, but the idea would still hold true for such a thing to happen in.

    True - but the idea here is that it was possible to read and write back to the brain. A feed back system instead doesn't require writing to the brain and instead uses our hardware (such as skin) and recreates pressures and textures of an object that our brains (along with sight) will think it's touching an object. One way to do this is to use our own senor hardware like nerves and touch to recreate the idea in our brains. 

    Send the right signals down our nervous system (won't require surgery) you can recreate a rock in your hand. Not saying this is easy work here - but it is possible. On the other hand - the question - is this right - might come up. Meaning the technology might come along - but delay longer than it would normally to make sure it comes into the right age of such a technology of power. Sometimes slow and study does win the race lol. 


  • MAC_MAN86MAC_MAN86 Posts: 2,262
    Wintermute
    All this technology and every time we need to change a light bulb or change a bathroom tap valve we need to call out a professional!
    It takes them extra time to find out the correct sizes of imperial/metric and then try to find the parts locally is a nightmare.
    Surely, it is far greater to simply miss out a generation of tech (whatever it maybe circa) then widely accept a manufacturing standard to stick with it. This is a modern day problem of a throw-away society. I could only dream of a world in which everything is compatible and parts are available!
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,064 Valuable Player
    edited November 2018
    Anybody seen Black mirror episode 

    San Junipero

    Don't read about it before hand as you'll spoil it. Just watch it (guaranteed you will love it) and tell me if your perspective is challenged.

  • falken76falken76 Posts: 2,811 Valuable Player
    This would NEVER take off if it requires surgery.  I sure as hell wouldn't get any surgery to play games or even have access to an actual holodeck.  Not happening.
  • LuluViBritanniaLuluViBritannia Posts: 462
    Trinity
    They said the same thing only a 100 years ago about computers.

    They said we would need surgery to use computers? Then they were damn wrong, lol.
    I get your point: tech keeps improving to some extent, never say never, I know all that. In that case, that point simply doesn't apply as I'm not saying the tech is not feasible (okay, I did say the words "not possible" once, my bad, I take them back xD). I'm saying it will always be unpractical and that the current system will be just as immersive anyway.
    Again, I'll give the example of sight.
    - You could have surgery to get bionic eyes that can give you true sight in a VR world.
    - OR you can just use the current VR system, that will give you just as good a sight without the need for any surgery. There's a clear winner here.

    About the computers 100 years ago, what they did say is it would never take off if it kept the size of a big room. And they were right: computers took off because they got practical as they kept getting smaller and more powerful. The same for cellphones: the first generations were so big and not portable, so they didn't sell well. Then, they got smaller and this is what made them go mainstream.

    As for this full dive solution, it will simply never be practical as you simply can't avoid surgery and the millions of electrodes. Hence, it will never happen.

    And we're just talking of the tech side here. There's also the human side. The very fact that it requires surgery makes it not a viable solution for most people. Every surgery comes with a risk, and when we're talking about the brain, every risk is lethal or, at best, can make you mentally defective. It would be a shame to drool on your knees for the rest of your life just because a non-required surgery went wrong, don't you think?

    Personally, as much as I love VR, even if Oculus themselves were to release a full dive tech, I certainly wouldn't take it if that required tempering with my body.
    Current VR results imo:
    - Great small apps. Great ports of bigger games.
    - Great VR-specific features. Not enough showcased!!!
    - Too many actors in the industry, the market is totally broken.


    My hopes for VR next gen:

    - Better ratio between visual quality and power needs. No more godrays and less SDE.
    - Full Body Tracking.


    "If you don't mind, do you want me to take you there? Where dreams come true."
  • shadowfroggershadowfrogger Posts: 502
    Trinity
    edited November 2018

    never be practical as you simply can't avoid surgery and the millions of electrodes. Hence, it will never happen.

    There is quite a lot of technology that we don't have access to, In terms of surgery.  It might not be required for full dive technology


    Although unfeasible today, you could create ultra sonic waves to interfere and send false signals instead. You could hijack the nervous system.  Although the computing power and precision to read and write in real time is unthinkable today.  We don't really know if full dive needs surgery or not yet.

    Also, there may be a future where humans start to diverse with logic driven biological or technological evolution.  It might be common place one day for a percent of the population to just get cybernetic implants from a early age.  Of course there would have to be near 0% failure rates.  The thing is, it's hard to comprehend how fast technology advances will be in 20years. We won't be using current tools and methods, We will have tools that speed up anything we are researching on a order of magnitude that is hard to imagine compared to current process.  We are also just started a AI revolution(over next 10-20years) akin to previous industry revolutions but on a much faster scale.  We won't see the sudden jumps until generation 3 VR devices, But from there on out, that is really when things will get nuts.  100-200 years for full brain read and writing is far too conservative IMO
    Visit my amateur homegrown indie game company website!
    http://www.gaming-disorder.com/
  • Digikid1Digikid1 Posts: 1,991 Valuable Player
    We would be better off just figuring out how to build force fields and making REAL holographic stuff instead of the fake holograms that we make today. 

    We need a REAL holodeck style tech. 
  • MAC_MAN86MAC_MAN86 Posts: 2,262
    Wintermute
    edited November 2018
    Nanobots are now being used in Surgery. We are there now!

  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,368 Valuable Player
    edited November 2018
    Guess we're closer to smell o vision than I thought, but it looks like it might be a fake or limited understand. Either way, it looks promising if it is true.

    https://uploadvr.com/electrical-nose-stimulation-could-let-you-smell-anything-vr/

    If they are for real - than this will be deployable over night as this is one key area where VR would shine above all other ways to take in media. I say this feature alone would draw in thousands of people and give way to new ways we take pictures (image + smells) of places we been and seen.

    Though can't lie xD having rods up my nose sounds a bit unpleasant, but I guess long as I can breath - having the ability to smell a rose can't be all that bad xD - maybe? 
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,445 Valuable Player
    edited November 2018
    Mradr said:
    Guess we're closer to smell o vision than I thought, but it looks like it might be a fake or limited understand. Either way, it looks promising if it is true.

    https://uploadvr.com/electrical-nose-stimulation-could-let-you-smell-anything-vr/

    I don't believe it for a second :D
  • Digikid1Digikid1 Posts: 1,991 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:
    Mradr said:
    Guess we're closer to smell o vision than I thought, but it looks like it might be a fake or limited understand. Either way, it looks promising if it is true.

    https://uploadvr.com/electrical-nose-stimulation-could-let-you-smell-anything-vr/

    I don't believe it for a second :D
    Get ready for fart smells and other pranks....

    ah the possibilities.......
  • ShinxShinx Posts: 4
    NerveGear
    I’m Shinx from the future 2291. Humanity started full dive vr in 2074. It caused a lot of problems more than you can ever imagine. Humanity now facing the danger of extinction because of it. Please try to stop it as much as you can to save the future.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,933 Valuable Player
    Shinx said:
    I’m Shinx from the future 2291. Humanity started full dive vr in 2074. It caused a lot of problems more than you can ever imagine. Humanity now facing the danger of extinction because of it. Please try to stop it as much as you can to save the future.

    Bollocks to that. VR is the only way I can get close to naked ladies without the use of chloroform. :D
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • TwinsoflupaTwinsoflupa Posts: 2
    NerveGear
    I put some though into this topic. I don't have specifics but using different resources I came up with this

    Replacement for Haptic Suit/Surgical Implants

    Full suit (except head, of course) with small built in balloons to make pressure or touch sensation. It would be like mini reusable airbags that get activated by the computer program that reads physical touch. Even though this won’t allow pain you could feel if someone or something is simply touching you. Shooting RPGs would require something more advanced. The device (headset) will also carry some pressure sensors to ensure the device is being used. If not the system will shut down after a 10 minute wait time.

    Movement

    If we can read the waves we can set it up to only read movement and can activate the sleep cycle and produce the chemical in lucid dreams (allows you to control yourself  but your body won’t move. Sorry, if you sleepwalk this won’t work for you) you could safely stop the body from moving. Also track eye movement to make the player control the avatar.

    Smell

    No feasible way to make smells but if the image is real enough your brain might make it smell like it is supposed to. It will use previous encounters to fill in the missing info. (Maybe, this isn’t my strong suit.)

    Processing Speed

    If you don’t have to move because of the paralyse, just lay down on a bed and have cords run from a super computer to your headset. Because you can’t move there is no danger of getting tangled and then you have the proper computer power needed for a good image. For a multiplayer game just hook it up to an internet booster or have it run on a huge server through the internet that has constant maintenance.

    Addiction.

    Set up a shut-down time for the server. This allows maintenance and stops people from using it to much. If the server is physical there is also no way to unlock it with our physically being at the server. During shutdown disconnect it from the internet and only allow hardware to access it.

    Keeping it PG for kids

    Set it up that people cannot make their own games. This keeps the usage PG and controls safety due to children. The group that rates games can then rate all the games for the device and it allows players to distinguish between the genre, rating, and graphics.

    Cost.

    Even if the system is expensive today, it might be something readily available in the future. Computers used to be huge and hard to get but now they are everywhere. Back then a computer was like 5000 dollars (plus inflation rate) now we can get one maybe 100th of the size for 40 bucks. With tech advancements this could be possible, but we need to work together.

    Safety

    Lock your Dahm door! Also no real money purchases in game but have it linked to an account on your computer. If real money can be used in game this could allow a black market system to be established. In the suit set up a pulse reader that shuts the system down if the heart rate gets to high. If the pulse reader reads no heartbeat but can detect that the suit is being worn set up a direct line to 911. This makes it so people won’t die because they cant call help and ensures help as quick as possible. For user security they must have a password. This includes a starting phrase to make sure the user doesn’t accidently start the system.

    Language

    Set up a mic. to speak or maybe read the brain waves to type out what you want to say. This wont allow talking but with some help from a online translator everyone could understand each other.

    Settings

    Make a “Report Bug” button or a detector/tracker in the system to find people going outside the game area. If they do this set up a 10 second warning screen to return or have an account reset. This will keep many people from going out map. If a player falls out of the map by accident have a safety option to track the player. This makes cases easier if a player gets reset but fell by accident. If the player can make a good case and has proof, their items will be replaced. To replace items the server will have a player catalog that records each players items when they log off. This will give a basic estimate on what to return. The player will lose all progress for that day but can continue.  But if the account is reset and the player does not ask for items back in 5 days the data get deleted and the player will be forced to restart.


    Settings… continued - tabs


    Audio

    Built in bluetooth headphones in the headset this tab will allow the player to control volume, allow voices, ect.

    Video

    Control Graphics and quality.


    Advanced

    Pain settings - allows small electric shocks to be administered through suit to the body. Cooldown time of 1 shock per 2 seconds will be added to stop continuous shocks. (bullet shots) there will also be 3 “are you sure?” pop up windows with the buttons switching places. This can be turned off at anytime. These shocks will leave a tingle but not harm the body. No shocks will be administered near the area of the heart to ensure safety.


    “Report Bug” button goes in this tab.


    Sensitivity.

    Speaks for itself. Will allow the player to adjust sensitivity of the eye tracker and turning speed.


    Log off

    One pop up asking “Are You Sure You Want to Log Off?”


  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 6,271 Volunteer Moderator
    Shouldn't that be "submersive"  B)
    A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.

  • feelrealfeelreal Posts: 47
    Brain Burst

    Smell

    No feasible way to make smells but if the image is real enough your brain might make it smell like it is supposed to. It will use previous encounters to fill in the missing info. (Maybe, this isn’t my strong suit.)



    In fact we have already created a device that will emulate smells for VR games and videos. You can check it out at Feelreal.com. Besides smell, Feelreal Multisensory Mask adds hot or cold wind, water mist and vibration effects to increase VR immersion. 
    Virtual reality will feel so real...
    ...with Feelreal  <3 

    Pre-order World's First Multisensory VR Mask on Indiegogo now:
    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/feelreal-the-world-s-first-multisensory-vr-mask--2





  • vince.garvievince.garvie Posts: 2
    NerveGear
    Full dive vr is a hard feat to get but they do have the means of grabbing full dive vr they r about 6 to 7 years from completely finishing full dive but they explain it like a beta test what they want is to boost parts of the brain that r weak like if u have problems like walking in real life the full dive is supose to counter it by boosting brain power in game to over time give u the means to walk and do stuff that u woudnt normally do they finsh 2 steps that i know of for full dive the first the headset to show the brain activity and alows u to controlle objects that r electonic like radio controlled cars number 2 alowing u to use headset connected to a computer and play games with just your mind with headset on of course the third they could do but they dont want to rush and hurt people  
  • vince.garvievince.garvie Posts: 2
    NerveGear
    So about 10 years id say and we get full dive vr i did alot of research for the info provided

  • MorgrumMorgrum Posts: 1,608 Valuable Player

    If we do get full dive I want a 360 complete DoF hamster ball rolling cage with some friction assist to enable jumping!

    IM BATMAN!...……. In my dreams.

    But not the crime fighter pish posh on that I wanna be the billionaire playboy who takes Russian ballet companies on clothing optional yacht cruises in the Mediterranean!

    HUZZAH!

    WAAAGH!
  • AetheralMeowsticAetheralMeowstic Posts: 1
    NerveGear
    Actually, Full Dive VR is entirely possible. Researchers have found that low-intensity focused ultrasound, or LIFU, can stimulate pinpoint areas of the brain directly. In order to prevent the person from acting out the game, constantly stimulate the part of the brain that keeps you from acting out your dreams. Combine it with the most accurate dry plate EEG electrodes possible, as well as perfect intent-based control (IBC), a brain-computer interface (BCI), and sensory engines, and you have yourself a full-dive headset that can probably be developed by 2030, give or take a couple of years.

    Basically, it's entirely within our reach.

    By the way, I already have concepts for a few Full Dive Titles:
    • Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Tides of Destiny (Single-Player Full Dive Alola Region Mystery Dungeon Title)
    • Pokémon Ultimate Mystery Dungeon (VRMMO Pokémon Mystery Dungeon Title)
    • Pokémon: Eon Eternity Online (VRMMO Core RPG Pokémon Title, with Every Region from Kanto to Galar)
    Yes, they're all Full-Dive Pokémon titles, which would most likely be a dream come true for Satoshi Tajiri.
  • A.Very.Bored.CatA.Very.Bored.Cat Posts: 1
    NerveGear
    That's still up to the consumer anyway if it gets developed, right?
    You wouldn't disagree to the development of Full Dive VR.Technology if you didn't actually somehow agreed to it being developed.
    I guess if everybody's honest, h/s/d would somehow want it possible, but that's just my opinion...

    ...yawn...
  • TwinsoflupaTwinsoflupa Posts: 2
    NerveGear
    What would be released would be based on age groups and types of people. 
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