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Well If This Ends Up Happening I'm Jumping Ship!

snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,044 Valuable Player
https://uploadvr.com/oculus-rift-s-code-references/

The Rift S has been referenced in code somewhere apparently and is using inside-out tracking and a software IPD instead of a physical one.

Any game using 360 degree tracking will be pretty much unplayable.

I honestly don't know what Oculus are thinking, enthusiasts are going to be leaving the Oculus platform in droves. Still got to wait and see what happens at F8 but if their CV2 is basically a Quest without the mobile phone parts I'm getting myself either a Pimax or a Valve headset and will jump back to Oculus when they release the CV3. The Rift S will probably be cheap but I'm not going near it.

Dear Oculus, if you're releasing a cheap crappy headset with inside-out tracking as your CV2 then I'm not going anywhere near it. Fuck you, I'm buying a Valve/Pimax headset next gen and MIGHT go back to Oculus for the CV3 if you release something decent.

And I actually MEAN it this time! :(
"This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
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Comments

  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,044 Valuable Player
    You don't need to wait until the thing is revealed (assuming that everything about it having inside-out tracking is true of course!) to know that it isn't going to have flawless 360 degree tracking.

    The only thing that will have me thinking about buying it is if it has a decent FOV and/or 4K displays and foveated rendering, otherwise if it's just a Quest-lite (due to not having a Snapdragon in it) with a tether they can fuck right off as far as I'm concerned.

    I'm bloody furious about this news if it turns out to be true. :angry:
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,152 Volunteer Moderator
    edited February 5
    I'm pretty sure they wouldn't put a PC headset out that was deficient in the tracking department. I'm no expert but I'm guessing inside out tracking (if thats what it ends up being) could have its inherent weaknesses mitigated by maybe referencing the environment at regular short intervalls with a built in camera. Isn't that what the Quest will do? Mixing motion detection with built-in camera info?

    In any event, I think Zen is right, no point in prejudging at this point, you'll get stressed!
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,527 Valuable Player
    edited February 5
    snowdog said:
    You don't need to wait until the thing is revealed

    If you don't understand the difference between facts vs rumors vs speculation vs assumption in the year 2019 then... wtf. You have never tried Quest nor do you have the slightest clue how effective Oculus' Inside-Out Tracking is when it comes to room-scale. I've read tech articles that claim Oculus tech can even be used for Arena Scale in the very near future. But we can't even get to any real conversation on this topic because you've already polluted the conversation with more pointless whining about how you will take your ball and go home. (sorry for calling it 'whining' but that's how it truly comes across)

    You already made this threat in a real sense in the Pimax Megathread. Now you're making it again over an UploadVR article. And in-between both of your real threats you are constantly making what you call "jokes" with your "Fuck you Oculus, I'm buying a Vive" one-liners. You know... it's not really a joke if sometimes you mean it for real lol

    You are entitled to your opinion and of course you can have your own reservations about what it would take for you to abandon the Oculus VR line of products. I have my own reservations as well! There are things Oculus could do that would turn me off and cause me to abandon this line of products. Luckily those things haven't happened yet, and unlike you I don't feel the need to constantly make my requirements for "jumping ship" a public spectacle.

    With all due respect, if you're gonna leave then leave. Constantly saying "fuck you I'm leaving" is immature, uninspiring, and noisey, tbh.
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  • ShocksVRShocksVR Posts: 452
    Trinity
    You're assuming the RUMORS are 100% correct.  We have no idea what this Rift-S refresh will be like in it's final form (and it's not CV2; this is a REFRESH of the existing Rift line - like the Xbox One S is to Xbox One).

    Honestly the point that you think Oculus can just release a 4k headset with perfect eye tracking and seamless foveated rendering is just silly.  The tech and software needed to enable such features are not there yet. Have you been watching the Oculus Connect videos ? (not to mention such a headset would be $1000+, effectively killing the PC side of Oculus)

    If Rift-S can launch with the new Oculus lenses, a 1600p screen (or better), inside out tracking, AND a logical IPD (I hope its manual, but if it's software based they should have a good reason why); then I think Rift-S at a $350 to $400 price point is a HUGE win.  Rift-S combined with Rift exclusives will make it the PCVR headset to own.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,527 Valuable Player
    And as several people said on reddit, Facebook is not about to undermine the multiple multimillion-dollar software projects that are all being released. Nor are they going to sabotage the competitive VR tournaments that they actively host and fund.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,527 Valuable Player
    Case in point,

    Check out Quest's Inside Out range vs WMR:



    Aside from being superior, we can still hold off to see if Oculus will put a single camera in the back of the headset. Which seems viable considering how the Rift is currently designed:


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  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 3,745 Valuable Player
    edited February 6

    In any event, I think Zen is right, no point in prejudging at this point, you'll get stressed!
    I think it's a little late for that advice. You can feel Snowdog's rage. His inner spurs fan is coming to the surface. 


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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,044 Valuable Player
    And it IS going to be the CV2 no matter what the specs are by DEFINITION. :open_mouth:
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,527 Valuable Player
    If Oculus decided to call it a Rift-S and makes it clear that it isn't a full CV2, then the only people who will insist on calling it the CV2 will be those interested in trolling Rift owners. That's okay though, this community has a good history of dealing with trolls. They tend to end up "leaving in droves"
    ;)
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,527 Valuable Player
    edited February 6
    lol - well it's not so much inside-out tracking that I'm defending, it's the fact that Facebook has a goal to reach "1 billion users" and is doing everything they can to achieve that goal across all 3 markets: Mobile, Stand-Alone, PCVR. With all the software they fund to throw at PCVR and their desire to hit 1-billion, I have no doubt that Rift-S will give us a fantastic 360 PCVR experience.

    A simple line of code that someone discovered has turned in to some mass conspiracy theories full of terrible assumptions. Everyone knows I love Mr. snowdog but we gotta keep it real, baby. This post is a clickbait title with pure trolling comments like, "enthusiasts are going to be leaving the Oculus platform in droves."

    The number of people who have falsely predicted that Oculus is going to be abandoned since 2016 is hilarious; and the fact that they have all been dead wrong is even more humorous. If Oculus survived launching with a single sensor and an XBox controller, then it will survive a Rift-S with inside-out tracking. But hey, if snowdog wants to join the list of people who failed at predicting Oculus' demise then have at it.

    And let's also be clear: PCVR overall isn't even selling in droves! That's the problem every company faces. Just ask HTC and their Google buyout situation.

    If PCVR isn't selling in droves, then it's a bit impossible for people to leave it in droves. Maths.

    Besides, no one person can speak for the entire VR Enthusiast community anyway.

    Facebook is in this for the long game, and they intend to win. If they can deliver 360 room-scale tracking with Rift-S that is on par with my current 3-sensor setup, then lets do it! For anyone who doesn't want to stick around for the next few phases of Oculus HMD's...



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  • WildtWildt Posts: 2,016 Valuable Player
    edited February 6
    I'm hoping it will support constellation tracking too - shouldn't be that costy to throw some IR LEDs on a wired Quest.

    ...but if it doesn't, then they've lost me as a customer as well. Not that I assume anyone cares, just saying.
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  • dburnedburne Posts: 2,720 Valuable Player
    edited February 6
    It will be interesting to see, guess all of this at this point is speculation.
    However I would certainly welcome any information on a new Rift, just no idea whether to believe any of this is factual.

    Regarding the tracking - while I have no trouble with my Rift and sensor tracking certainly it can be quite frustrating for many new users. Main thing is to have a decent motherboard with good USB 3 ports or invest in an add in card.
    So I can kind of understand their desire to move away from it if they can get just as good an experience with less equipment/setup needed for it.

    Whatever it takes to keep growing the PC-VR market (along with the others) will benefit all VR enthusiasts in the long run. It will be interesting to see how all this shakes out.
    While I know it is a very small market for their overall scheme, there have been many flight and racing sim enthusiasts over the last several weeks jump ship and go with Odyssey and Odyssey+ and Pimax 5k+. At least as represented by what I am reading over on the forums.
    Don

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  • maxpare79maxpare79 Posts: 1,782
    Project 2501
    All I am hoping for, is that it has the same form-factor as the curret rift and not the same as PSVR/Odyssey with the HMD dangling in front of your face
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  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,774 Volunteer Moderator
    edited February 6
    Maybe, just maybe Oculus is confident that inside-out tracking is good enough to replace the 1st gen Trackers, which are not always 100% even in ideal conditions. 

    From what we have seen all these extra sensors aren't always user-friendly. A move to an inside out that doesn't have any barriers the physical sensors have while still providing comparable tracking is a win for VR.

    1st Gen Optical sensors
    Con's
    • Dedicated space for VR needed 
    • Hard to move to another area
    • Requires a good USB controller and a lot of setup
    • Can be quite fiddly and exhausting for non-enthusiasts
    • 3 sensors needed for larger tracking volumes

    Pro's
    • EXCELLENT tracking with the ideal setup and hardware
    • Allows for full 360 tracking
    • Sees the controllers behind the HMD
    • Works in dark areas
    • Works well in low tracking features areas


    Oculus Inside Out

    Con's
    • Possible occlusion zones behind the head with controllers
    • May not work in room's with little trackable features, such as plain white walls
    • Will require a moderately lit room/area

    Pro's
    • Great tracking on par with Optical controllers (as per reviews and impressions) although not 100% yet
    • Allows for full 360 tracking (we have seen this from videos, it wont see the controller behind your head, but it does full 360)
    • No setup, it just works
    • Can be played in any space at any time, you can move from room to room and it remembers them (This is great for the Quest as you can play anywhere, for PC version will be fantastic for laptop owners too)
    • Possible AR passthrough
    • Your play area is the size of the planet, no volume size constraint.




    It becomes very apparent very quickly where things are going to go for VR, outside in tracking will be out of the doors in the future, it's a 1st gen idea that came about from the fact that the tech didn't mature enough at that time

    ------ PS

    Also, PC based Inside Out Tracking could even be further improved beyond to what the Quest will offer. 

    At the moment Quest's tracking cameras are bound to how little processing power it has to use for an on-board Snapdragon. (including limited battery life)

    Without a CPU and power constraint, the PC version could include additional cameras (as @zenbane mentioned), higher res cameras, even maybe IR laser grids projectors (aka Kinnect) to further improve the accuracy.
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  • WildtWildt Posts: 2,016 Valuable Player
    Another pro for constellation tracking is the possibility to track your entire body with cheap IR LEDs fitted to belt, shoes or whatever. 
    PCVR: CV1 || 4 sensors || TPcast wireless adapter || MamutVR Gun stock V3
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  • Hiro_Protag0nistHiro_Protag0nist Posts: 4,805 Valuable Player
    I'd say the VR dream is inside out tracking.  It's what everybody should be aiming for.

    If i ever have time and can be bothered i might search these forums for the early posts when many were horrified that the Rift might use cameras!  Duh duh Duuuuurrrrr!

    You stick to playing games in your "playspace".  I'll be doing backflips in my garden - in VR!!!
  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 6,428 Volunteer Moderator
    Shouldn't jump off snowy, you need to jump on !!!!


    A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.

  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,676 Valuable Player
    edited February 6
    How do we know that they haven't worked something out for tracking behind the head? They have some games on the Oculus store that require you to place your hands behind your head, so I just can't see them making a headset that doesn't work with the games on their store. To be fair though, I think lots more people would be interested in a VR headset with inside out tracking due to ease of setup. 

    Edit: Devs could just make it that when you put your hand over your shoulder it could be classed as been behind your head. I mean, it's not a million miles way from your hands been behind your head. Anyways, I'll be buying one. The Vive and other headset pricing is just silly to me, so Oculus is a no brainer. I might have looked at the Samsung Odyssey, but it's not sold here in the UK and no doubt Oculus will do it better..
  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 4,883 Volunteer Moderator
    I’ll give Oculus the benefit of the doubt on their Insight tracking. They wouldn’t put it in the Rift S if it wasn’t up to the job.

    Looking at the rumours, the Rift S does make some sense. It’s not CV2 with all the fantastic new tech that’s been previewed, but perhaps they know that they’re still a few years away from getting that into a shippable (and affordable) product. A lot of people have been hollering for just such a refresh—better screens and lenses like the Go and Quest, easier setup without external sensors and USB bandwidth issues... it could fix the Rift’s shortcomings, and also be a more affordable product than the CV1.

    I do have a couple reservations, though—for one, not having a physical IPD adjustment worries me. The Go is better than the DK2, but I still can’t quite get both eyes into the sweet spot with my 72mm IPD. I also prefer the Rift Touch controllers with their downward rings. They help keep the controllers properly positioned when I relax my grip, and they’ve protected my knuckles from many nasty bashes. I don’t think the Quest-style controllers will be quite as ergonomically comfortable.

    Anyway, I’ll reserve judgement until we have some real information, but I can see the benefit of a low-priced Rift 1.5 while we wait for CV2. 
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,483 Valuable Player
    Personally I've given up spending much time on rumors concerning future products. I'll consider new products when they are available and thorough reviews have been done. So much can change before new products are finished. 

    So - regarding Rift 2 - I'm quite sure someone wrote a song about it  B)



    I did note that Zuckerberg promised full backward compatibility for previous games and apps in future HMDs. Interesting how that will work out - at least I assume that tracking then must be of a similar quality as CV1. 
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,527 Valuable Player
    Wildt said:
    Another pro for constellation tracking is the possibility to track your entire body with cheap IR LEDs fitted to belt, shoes or whatever. 
    Yeah, I remember hearing about how this was gonna be all the rage back when HTC released these...



    The Industry is still waiting to see how epic this was supposed to be lol
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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    edited February 6
    Personally, and I've said it several times before since the CV2 was rumored when I first got to these boards, inside out is a lot more ideal for the average user than constellation and I have no problem with it if it's done well . I own an Odyssey+ and have at least 300 hours of use into it by now, for 90% of games out there the tracking is good enough. Some archery games it's a pain and as a taller guy who is 6'4, beat saber is a pain to play for me as I have to force my hands to stay within the cameras. Having more cameras would solve this and I'd be all for it. The prediction tech of WMR is the most impressive thing about those headsets as it allows you 2 seconds to reach behind you or off to the side out of vision,, something that would be even more impressive with more cameras. A rift with updated optics is what I've been wanting from the start so, good chance I'm going to get one. The only wildcard for me personally is what Valve is working on. 
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,676 Valuable Player
    nalex66 said:


    I do have a couple reservations, though—for one, not having a physical IPD adjustment worries me. The Go is better than the DK2, but I still can’t quite get both eyes into the sweet spot with my 72mm IPD. 

    They might use software to do the IPD adjustments.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,152 Volunteer Moderator
    I think we're in a very good position. Quest will give us a great idea of how Oculus' inside-out tech has progressed when that releases, so we shouldn't have to rely too much on guesswork at that point. Not withstanding the possibility of it improving further with the added computing power available from a PC and any other technical development done between that of the Quest and Rift S or CV2 (again, assuming the latter 2 are inside-out).
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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,044 Valuable Player
    The problem is that more cameras won't solve problems that archery games will have. The problems that archery games have is caused by the controllers being too close to the headset. Even if you add an extra two cameras to the back of the headset you'll still have issues with the controllers being concluded if they're too close to your head.

    And it'll be the CV2 because it's the second Consumer Version of the Rift.
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  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 4,883 Volunteer Moderator
    RedRizla said:
    nalex66 said:


    I do have a couple reservations, though—for one, not having a physical IPD adjustment worries me. The Go is better than the DK2, but I still can’t quite get both eyes into the sweet spot with my 72mm IPD. 

    They might use software to do the IPD adjustments.
    Yeah, there is a software IPD adjustment, which led to the rumour of no physical adjustment. Software-only is fine if the lenses are large enough to get both eyes in the sweet spot, but so far no Oculus headset has done a great job of accommodating very high or low IPD values. Even the CV1 only goes up to 70mm, which is thankfully close enough due to the large sweet spot of the lenses.

    Go has great lenses, but the single screen limits how wide the image can stretch, so I hope they keep the separate screens that Quest uses. 
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,527 Valuable Player
    edited February 6
    snowdog said:
    The problem is that more cameras won't solve problems that archery games will have. The problems that archery games have is caused by the controllers being too close to the headset. Even if you add an extra two cameras to the back of the headset you'll still have issues with the controllers being concluded if they're too close to your head.

    Archery games? Seriously? lol - I thought you were talking about "enthusiasts." And how do you know that archery games won't work on an HMD with inside-out tracking? Are you speaking from first-hand experience, or are you theorycrafting?

    And it'll be the CV2 because it's the second Consumer Version of the Rift.

    I remember a time when you would lecture others on incremental releases for products like the iPhone. Back then you seemed to have understood that not every product release is a next version up. The Vive Pro is another example. Everyone seemed to understand that it was a 1.5 upgrade.

    Now though, you seem to have forgotten how all this technology works.

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