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Brace yourselves: Official Rift-S reveal is coming

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Comments

  • SharpfishSharpfish Posts: 1,303
    Neo
    edited March 20
    There is almost NOTHING more vital to the in-view aethestics of VR than superb BLACK LEVELS.

    Without pure or near pure blacks the entire sense of 'reality' / presence /immersion is ruined. Black is kinda the void of reality, it's expected, I saw this even on the DK2 which (black smear aside) would often wow me with the stunning colours and jet black contrast (and .. NO GOD RAYS too boot!). So.. with CV1 we got god rays, with Rift - S we now get bad blacks too. And this is how many years on from DK2? SMH.

    A single light in an entirely black VR world could feel as real as any multi million photo real poly packed scene, your brain fills in the gaps, you can feel the 'cold void'... it's hard to do that with dirty blacks, mura and other BS. To this day DK2 has still been MY best experience of inky blacks and glowing colours, as bad as it was in other areas.

    The world's going mad.
    EX DK2, EX VIVE, EX PSVR, Currently RIFT CV1 | VR developer
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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    edited March 20
    Sharpfish said:
    There is almost NOTHING more vital to the in-view aethestics of VR than superb BLACK LEVELS.

    Without pure or near pure blacks the entire sense of 'reality' / presence /immersion is ruined. Black is kinda the void of reality, it's expected, I saw this even on the DK2 which (black smear aside) would often wow me with the stunning colours and jet black contrast (and .. NO GOD RAYS too boot!). So.. with CV1 we got god rays, with Rift - S we now get bad blacks too. And this is how many years on from DK2? SMH.

    A single light in an entirely black VR world could feel as real as any multi million photo real poly packed scene, your brain fills in the gaps, you can feel the 'cold void'... it's hard to do that with dirty blacks, mura and other BS. To this day DK2 has still been MY best experience of inky blacks and glowing colours, as bad as it was in other areas.

    The world's going mad.
    Yea, There was a small sliver of me that wanted the Rift-S despite everything but when I read that, the last little bit of interest left lol. Elite Dangerous is one of the games I want an upgrade for. It already looks incredible in the Odyssey. 
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,721 Valuable Player
    edited March 20
    I'm starting to think oculus doesn't listen to it's user base judging by the comments on here. So a Rift -S with Oled screens and same resolution as the Oculus Quest would have had everyone jumping all over it is that right?

    How much cost would have being added to the Rift -S, if it had Oled screens the same as the Oculus Quest? If the answer is not a lot, then what were Oculus thinking of by doing this? Why would they purposely put out a headset that has crap blacks and would make people complain? I can only think they do things their way and don't listen to their user base if there's no other reason for this.

    I do know people were shocked when the God Rays were in the current Rift, so I can except Oculus are capable of dropping the odd clanger.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,609 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:
    I'm starting to think oculus doesn't listen to it's user base judging by the comments on here.

    Well they are listening to the Market. And the Market is telling them a story that they need to hear if they want that "1 billion units sold." That story isn't exactly the story existing Rift CV1 owners want to hear.

    Welcome to... Mainstream VR.
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  • edmgedmg Posts: 1,153
    Wintermute
    But the Quest is a much better deal for mainstream VR.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,721 Valuable Player
    edited March 20
    @Zenbane - I get where you are coming from, but if Oled screens on the Oculus Quest is all it took for people to be happy, then why wouldn't Oculus have used them in the Rift -S? Given PC hardware is much more powerful then Oculus Quest, I have to admit, I did expect Oculus Rift -S to have the same if not slightly better resolution then Oculus Quest.

    I'm not sure about Oled Vs Lcd because I'm not sure of the pro's and cons of both screen, but it seems a lot of people would have preferred Oled due to the blacks it produces. Whether there is any draw backs to having Oled screens I'm not sure. I can't see it been down to cost if the Oculus Quest has them and is £399.

    Probably if I knew everything about screen technology I would know the answer, but I know nothing other then Oled screens do produce better blacks then Lcd screens.
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,100 Valuable Player
    I believe there has to be a good reason. I play space games occasionally so blacks aren't as big a concern to me. But I can feel for those that need that. Bottom line is oculus felt doing what they did would bring in more people than they would lose.
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,164 Valuable Player
    edited March 21
    Stay strong and heads down chaps, going to be long wait until a worthy upgrade.


  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,798 Valuable Player
    edited March 21
    Part two would be viewing angle. We may consider the panels in the HMD like very small panels - and physically they are compared to a TV. But when you put on the HMD, the HMD panels become utterly gigantic in size - taking most of your field of view  - and then there's another aspect to OLED vs. LCD, namely the viewing angle. Especially the ability to perceive correct colors when looking at the periphery - here're some common observations from TV panels:

    "When it comes to viewing angle, Samsung touted QLED as being a significant upgrade compared to other LED TVs. Unfortunately, we have not measured any improvement on that matter. Samsung's QLED TVs perform almost the same as their predecessors, and that's in the low-end of most LCD TVs. Now, not all LED TVs have the same small viewing angles, IPStype TVs will usually do quite good. Either way, though, neither QLED nor the best LED TVs will match the viewing angle of OLED screens." (same source as previous post).

    I can notice that effect even on my 85" TV (which has a high-end VA panel, but it's still LCD) - but I don't notice it on the plasma nor the CV1. 

    Or two pictures may say more than 2,000 words ;)




    OLED top, LCD bottom - if you're in doubt 

    Eye fatigue/strain may be another concern - LCD often emits much more bright light than OLED, so LCDs are great for HDR, but I'm not sure how that work for panels placed so close to your eyes. If GO users having played bright games for many hours haven't noticed increased eye fatigue this may not be much of a problem, we'll see. 

    Again - I firmly believe Oculus and HTC had clear reasons for choosing OLED in 2016, and I really don't see why these reasons shouldn't still be relevant in 2019 - other than saving money. Even the Quest has OLED.

    What I like about the Rift-S is the +42% more pixels, reduced SDE and god rays, but compared to the CV1 I'm not sure that these benefits make up for the RIFT-S shortcomings. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    Speaking of HDR, I wonder when that will show up in VR. 
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    edited March 21
    kojack said:
    Interesting tweets from Tom Forsyth (former Oculus developer):

    I've not seen it reported anywhere, but I believe the Rift S has eye-relief adjustment. This doesn't sound like a big deal, but it is. The closer you can get your eyeball to the lens, the wider your FOV and the better the image quality.
    So while there's no hardware IPD, you can move the lenses closer or further from your eyes. If true, that's great.



     I wonder if that's why we're hearing mixed reports of some people saying the FoV is smaller than CV1 and some saying it's slightly larger. Would make sense. 
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,164 Valuable Player
    On the DK1 my eyelashes touched the screen :)

  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,798 Valuable Player
    edited March 21
    Zenbane said:
    RedRizla said:
    @dburne - You could plug ear buds into the jack on the Rift -S. Even use some bluetooth ones from your PC.

    I hate BlueTooth

    Yup, now we know that the real price for the CV1's awesome headphones was $200  :D

    Sound is extremely important in VR, and I've been really impressed with the sound quality in the CV1. For music and TV I'm using headphones ranging in prices from about $500 to 1K, the most expensive having 50 mm driver units (12 - 24,000 Hz). And yes, my most expensive headphones are better than the CV1, but it's not night and day. Try to note the deep bass in the CV1, it's really great - and also the high-pitched noises. I've never experienced problems using the CV1 headphones - in contrary I think they are truly excellent (for the price) and extremely important for VR immersion. 

    According to Cyber, CV1 audio specs were never released to the public - so I guess we can only compare subjectively, which of course also is fine. 




    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 4,075 Valuable Player
    pyroth309 said:
    hmmmmm that image is not really relevant.. lets be honest in that image the guy is onto a good thing which ever "headset" he plays with ;)
    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    hmmmmm that image is not really relevant.. lets be honest in that image the guy is onto a good thing which ever "headset" he plays with ;)
    Yea, it's not my creation, it was on oculus reddit and brought a chuckle. Figured I'd share.
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    Also I found this interesting - 

    Rift: 1080x 1200 pixel per eye = 1440K
    Rift S and Go: 1280 x 1440 pixel per eye = 1843K
    Samsung GearVR 1280 x 1440 pixel per eye = 1843K
    Lenovo Explorer: 1440 x 1440 pixel per eye = 2073K
    Oculus Quest: 1440 x 1600 pixel per eye = 2304K
    Samsung Odyssey: 1440 x 1600 pixel per eye = 2304K
    HTC Vive Pro: 1440 x 1600 pixel per eye = 2304K
    Pimax 5k+: 2560 x 1440 pixel per eye = 3686K
    HP Reverb: 2160 x 2160 pixel per eye = 4665K
    Pimax 8k: 3840 x 2160 pixel per eye = 8294K


  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,798 Valuable Player
    edited March 21
    1 hour of Rift-S exposure - focusing on the LCD black level:

    "Unfortunately it is an LCD display so the blacks are not really black. It was very apparent when playing the games. The dark scenes and menus were more grayish overall. If your own a Go, you know exactly what I am talking about. People who love Elite Dangerous or Horror games will NOT enjoy the dark scenes anymore."

    Also - note the text in bold:

    "In terms of FOV, it seemed to be similar to Oculus Go as well. So slightly bigger than Rift, probably on par with Vive now.

    In my talks with the Oculus personnel, I was told that the render resolution is same like on Rift, but that because the display and lenses are better, it does look better overall. I second that (for scenes that are not dark).

    The 80hz display frequency did not really have any impact on my gameplay, I couldn't find any difference."

    https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/b3j65w/i_tried_the_oculus_rift_s_for_1h_here_is_my/

    If I understand this correct, you get Rift-S images rendered in Rift res and then shown on the Rift-S LCD? That would provide an explanation to why Oculus Rift and Rift-S have the same hardware requirements. But then Rift-S doesn't really have any higher res than Rift! Also it would ensure full compatibility with all games in the Oculus Store I guess (not having to support a new res). Do let me know if I'm not reading this right! 

    So +42% increased Rift-S res = gone? The plot thickens...  

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • WildtWildt Posts: 2,086 Valuable Player
    edited March 21
    RuneSR2 said:

    If I understand this correct, you get Rift-S images rendered in Rift res and then shown on the Rift-S LCD? That would provide an explanation to why Oculus Rift and Rift-S have the same hardware requirements. But then Rift-S doesn't really have any higher res than Rift! Also it would ensure full compatibility with all games in the Oculus Store I guess (not having to support a new res). Do let me know if I'm not reading this right! 

    So +42% increased Rift-S res = gone? The plot thickens...  

    Pretty sure the native resolution of the panel is exposed, but that the default SS1.0 is the same amount of rendered pixel as on the Rift.
    However, cranking it above 1.0 will increase the clarity on the Lenovo much more than on the Rift. Otherwise they've gone full pimax 8k with hardware upscaling, but that'd be so incredibly daft it's beyond comprehension.
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,798 Valuable Player
    edited March 21

    Jump to 13:55. Render res is exactly the same as Rift - "so you won't see finer details on the Rift-S".  

    Image result for atomic explosion gif animated

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,609 Valuable Player
    @RuneSR2 - yeah that pretty much confirms that Rift-S is a "refresh" and not an "upgrade."
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,798 Valuable Player
    Zenbane said:
    @RuneSR2 - yeah that pretty much confirms that Rift-S is a "refresh" and not an "upgrade."
    Exactly - and why CV1 owners have been more or less told by Oculus to wait - it kinda makes good sense now. Actually I don't mind waiting some more - also for cheaper and faster GPUs to arrive. And I'm starting to feel less depressed about still using the old model  ;)
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • WildtWildt Posts: 2,086 Valuable Player
    @RuneSR2 ; - I'm still convinced that what Sebastian is trying to convey is that without any SS tinkering you render the same amount of pixels as on the Rift, but that the image sent over HDMI matches the panel. 
    PCVR: CV1 || 4 sensors || TPcast wireless adapter || MamutVR Gun stock V3
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    WMR: HP Reverb
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