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Rift S Disappointment Thread so Oculus knows our feedback!

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  • KoBak07KoBak07 Posts: 42
    Brain Burst
    I am kind of lost with this release, as for me product offers more drawbacks than benefits over my current RIFT. Very small resolution bump vs loss of blacks (OLED), and worse tracking. To me this release is nothing but all the other el cheapo WMR headsets that are on the market. They should have never called this a RIFT in 2019+

    At least if they offered any insights or commitments about a real next gen upgrade to the Rift, I would feel somewhat re-assured that any continued investment into Rift content is OK to make. But with Iribe also leaving last year, all points to me that Oculus future is catering to the low end
  • DWinner9971DWinner9971 Posts: 17
    NerveGear

    I didn't miss any points, I was making a comment on the overall malcontent that seems to me to be misplaced.

    As I've said in another thread, gen 2 hasn't been cancelled. Rift S is just another headset that VR needs in order to attract more people. Just producing enthusiast headsets isn't sustainable for the PCVR industry.

    The current fanbase wants more titles and not just from indies... they (we) need them from the major devs. We want Codemasters to include VR for all their race sims, not just 1. We need Bethesda to include VR from the start in their big-budge games, not just conversions for a couple existing games.

    When I make my comments I'm talking about the benefits that Rift-S will have for enthusiasts and non-enthusiasts alike. As for releasing an enthusiast headset at the same time... I couldn't really care less about such timings. Like I said gen 2 hasn't been cancelled. It'll arrive when it's ready. And when we're able to drive such a headset.

    Perhaps you can shed some light on how an enthusiast headset could be driven if it was release now? what GPU? what res headset, what refresh rate? what FOV?

    In a year to 18 months, when nvidia have produced something with a bigger bang-for-your-buck than the 2080ti (ie 2100 series) then I'll be shouting for gen 2 headsets.

    I'd like to address a few things you mentioned from my perspective.
    I consider myself an enthusiast. I've followed the VR industry closely since Oculus was a kickstarter and pre-ordered the Rift ASAP once their site allowed me to finally order (it was buggy as heck that day).

    While I love and appreciate that Rift 2 is not fully cancelled, Oculus really should have at least announced some information about it - they could have even geared it toward to enthusiast crowd in an effort to not take anything away from their other announcement. Hopefully we will get this from them soon.

    Yes, I too want more quality games and applications for PCVR, but I would have also greatly preferred to have seen a real replacement for the Rift that still had two screens with a real IPD adjustment, actual headphones like the original, along with something that might make it worth it for existing owners and newcomers alike - such as higher resolution OLED panels, inside-out tracking with the announced option for external sensors for greater behind-the-back tracking, and/or larger FOV.

    As for what could drive a headset with higher resolution and/or wider FOV, I've been using either 1.75x or 2x supersampling since nearly the beginning with a GTX 1080. While that was the flagship GPU at the time, there are now multiple options for less money than I paid in 2016. Your point about waiting for Nvidia to produce something with a bigger bang for the buck is honestly laughable - even to an Nvidia fan like me. They have proven that they have 0 interest in doing such a thing when they can keep on price gouging for incremental perf improvements and additional features we don't want or need yet - like RTX.

    Honestly not trying to be argumentative, but the several deviations they made from the original Rift are what have me and so, so many others completely baffled and disappointed.
    As I and so many others have said....If they can release the Quest (physical IPD, two OLED panels with higher res, real headphones, and and SOC with onboard storage and Wi-Fi, etc) for $400, then why did they need to cut anything other than the SOC for the Rift S? Surely, the SOC costs them more than the additional camera/sensor. I know the drop to a single lower res panel without IPD adjustment was not necessary by simply looking at the Quest. 
  • CyionCyion Posts: 13
    NerveGear

    I didn't miss any points, I was making a comment on the overall malcontent that seems to me to be misplaced.

    As I've said in another thread, gen 2 hasn't been cancelled. Rift S is just another headset that VR needs in order to attract more people. Just producing enthusiast headsets isn't sustainable for the PCVR industry.

    The current fanbase wants more titles and not just from indies... they (we) need them from the major devs. We want Codemasters to include VR for all their race sims, not just 1. We need Bethesda to include VR from the start in their big-budge games, not just conversions for a couple existing games.

    When I make my comments I'm talking about the benefits that Rift-S will have for enthusiasts and non-enthusiasts alike. As for releasing an enthusiast headset at the same time... I couldn't really care less about such timings. Like I said gen 2 hasn't been cancelled. It'll arrive when it's ready. And when we're able to drive such a headset.

    Perhaps you can shed some light on how an enthusiast headset could be driven if it was release now? what GPU? what res headset, what refresh rate? what FOV?

    In a year to 18 months, when nvidia have produced something with a bigger bang-for-your-buck than the 2080ti (ie 2100 series) then I'll be shouting for gen 2 headsets.

    Oculus could have released an enthusiast headset in addition to the rift S that meets the standards of the htc vive pro or the pimax 5k+, if you have a high end PC like I do, my computer could easily handle those kind of specs.  The language out of Oculus has me deeply concerned, from my perspective, there is a change of culture to cader to the mainstream and grow VR at the cost of neglecting what the enthusiast wants.  If their ideology is to release headsets that have low spec requirements to run on a huge number of computers, they won't ever be releasing anything that will blow the other brands of headsets out of the water as far as innovation goes because they want to sell the headset to as many people as possible.  Oculus won't be releasing anything that is cutting edge because not many computers could handle it and profits are not there to sell to enthusiasts.
  • CrashFuCrashFu Posts: 1,756 Valuable Player
    Seriously, anyone else suspicious of all these < 10 post people with keyboard-smash looking names suddenly coming out of the woodwork to make near-identical disappointment posts?

    Methinks a lot of this is manufactured outrage, especially considering how baseless most of these complaints are. 
    It's hard being the voice of reason when you're surrounded by unreasonable people.
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    CrashFu said:
    Seriously, anyone else suspicious of all these < 10 post people with keyboard-smash looking names suddenly coming out of the woodwork to make near-identical disappointment posts?

    Methinks a lot of this is manufactured outrage, especially considering how baseless most of these complaints are. 
    Nope, it's normal. Most people only comment when something they dont' like compels them to which is why forums/reddit always skew negative. 
  • dburnedburne Posts: 2,713 Valuable Player
    I would be very comforting if Oculus came forward to say there is going to be Rift 2 for the hardcore VR peeps so I can feel reassured. Getting a Rift S and it being some what meh, but not saying anything for those who are hoping for the the bee's knees next gen VR headset is very disappointing. They haven't said what the Rift S is and if there is even going to be a next gen Rift 2. Till I've heard from them there will be a next gen Rift 2 then I'm going to remain angry.  

    And we won't hear anything, at least for a long while if ever.
    As far as I am concerned a true Gen 2 Rift is shelved, until I hear any news to the contrary.

    Don

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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,524 Valuable Player
    When news like this arrives, it's always the same. A flood of new posters, and then the "Legacy Trolls" log back in.
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  • KoBak07KoBak07 Posts: 42
    Brain Burst
    CrashFu said:
    Seriously, anyone else suspicious of all these < 10 post people with keyboard-smash looking names suddenly coming out of the woodwork to make near-identical disappointment posts?

    Methinks a lot of this is manufactured outrage, especially considering how baseless most of these complaints are. 
    I am sure @CrashFu that there was a time when you made your first post on this forum too  :):smile: I would bet there are a quite a few people like myself, who had the RIFT for a while (I bought mine in 2016), but have not been too active on forums, just lurking.

    Maybe, if many of us had been more active, FB would still be trying to build hardware that is for the early adopters, and not seemingly abandon that market.
  • CyionCyion Posts: 13
    NerveGear
    edited March 21
    CrashFu said:
    Seriously, anyone else suspicious of all these < 10 post people with keyboard-smash looking names suddenly coming out of the woodwork to make near-identical disappointment posts?

    Methinks a lot of this is manufactured outrage, especially considering how baseless most of these complaints are. 
    I have been a member of this forum since July 2017, and I have used this user name since the days of Quake 3, that's a long time if you were too young to play that game when it was popular.

    I think you are such a fan boy, that any criticism of an oculus product threatens you so you have to whip up this conspiracy of made up user accounts to try to deflect the perceived damage all of this negative feedback you think will cause.  Go look at my profile to see the date I joined.

    Your attempt at diminishing my credibility because of having less that 9 posts is a tactic people use when they want to suppress someone else's opinion.
  • CyionCyion Posts: 13
    NerveGear
    For anyone using Vive Pro as an example of what Oculus could do as a drivable enthusiast headset now, I'd say that isn't gen 2, any more than Rift-S is gen 2.

    Has an FOV increase suddenly been abandoned for your next enthusiast headset? It hasn't for me. I did ask what res, what FOV... what spec are you really looking for for gen 2? What PPD increase?

    To help out I'll say what I'm expecting... 130 minimum FOV, 50% minimum increase in PPD, possibly fovated rendering to help with the load. Less than that and it isn't gen 2.

    These kind of resolutions are getting towards Pimax 5k+ and above. Take a look at their forum to discover how well it's being driven with the latest and greatest GPU.

    If you're saying gen 2 doesn't have to be that much of a step, I'd say you're backing out of your own argument.


    In my original post I never mention gen 2, so therefore I am not backing down on anything.  I just expect a new released headset to have relevant improvements for the enthusiast, not steps backwards in my opinion.


  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    edited March 21
    For anyone using Vive Pro as an example of what Oculus could do as a drivable enthusiast headset now, I'd say that isn't gen 2, any more than Rift-S is gen 2.

    Has an FOV increase suddenly been abandoned for your next enthusiast headset? It hasn't for me. I did ask what res, what FOV... what spec are you really looking for for gen 2? What PPD increase?

    To help out I'll say what I'm expecting... 130 minimum FOV, 50% minimum increase in PPD, possibly fovated rendering to help with the load. Less than that and it isn't gen 2.

    These kind of resolutions are getting towards Pimax 5k+ and above. Take a look at their forum to discover how well it's being driven with the latest and greatest GPU.

    If you're saying gen 2 doesn't have to be that much of a step, I'd say you're backing out of your own argument.

    I never really quantified a "GEN 2" personally. I just want to see steady improvement especially when as you mentioned, the Pimax can barely be driven in higher end games with a 2080TI. I was just personally hoping the new rift would be more of a 1.5. I was expecting to get a Quest without the onboard SoC and I would have been really happy with that. What we got, can't say I'm a fan of it. 
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,149 Volunteer Moderator

    no you didn't so are you asking for a gen 1.5? a 1.6, a 1.7? what exactly?

    You keep saying a step backwards but you're ignoring the step forwards... the res increase, the pixel arrangement, the much reduced godrays, the apparent good performance of the insideout tracking (which is what all future headsets will need to perfect).

    When I asked what you wanted you gave the Vive Pro as an example... so I used that as an example. So you say what you want exactly. or are you just going to leave it a little vague.

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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,524 Valuable Player
    KoBak07 said:
     I would bet there are a quite a few people like myself, who had the RIFT for a while (I bought mine in 2016), but have not been too active on forums, just lurking.

    Hmm, so you're saying that this is all your fault?! I can get behind that.

    DAMN YOU KoBak07!!! DDAAAMMMNNN UUUUUUU!!!3342312L111!
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,524 Valuable Player

    no you didn't so are you asking for a gen 1.5? a 1.6, a 1.7? what exactly?

    You keep saying a step backwards but you're ignoring the step forwards... the res increase, the pixel arrangement, the much reduced godrays, the apparent good performance of the insideout tracking (which is what all future headsets will need to perfect).

    When I asked what you wanted you gave the Vive Pro as an example... so I used that as an example. So you say what you want exactly. or are you just going to leave it a little vague.


    Too much intellectual positivity there DnD. Please stop Internetting the right way.



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  • CyionCyion Posts: 13
    NerveGear

    no you didn't so are you asking for a gen 1.5? a 1.6, a 1.7? what exactly?

    You keep saying a step backwards but you're ignoring the step forwards... the res increase, the pixel arrangement, the much reduced godrays, the apparent good performance of the insideout tracking (which is what all future headsets will need to perfect).

    When I asked what you wanted you gave the Vive Pro as an example... so I used that as an example. So you say what you want exactly. or are you just going to leave it a little vague.


    What do you want me from me?  Will you not be satisfied until I break down what I want to the size of a micron?

    My minimum standard would be an htc vive pro for the rift S.

    Inside out tracking isn't an upgrade, it is inferior to outside in tracking when it comes to highly competitive VR games.  The LCD with its grey blacks is inferior to oled which its rich blacks in my opinion.  The rendering is the same as the original rift so while there is a resolution bump, it isn't taking full advantage of it.

    BTW the more we talk, the more people see this thread and the more of a chance that the Oculus staff see this thread, we can talk all day about this.  More and more people are seeing it and more and more people will say how displeased they are with the rift S headset and maybe then Oculus will take some of this feedback to heart for a future headset.

    Thank for the help in getting the word out to Oculus that we are displeased with the rift S.



  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,524 Valuable Player
    @Cyion the only reason Inside-Out tracking feels like a downgrade is because it is missing a 6th Camera to cover "behind" the Player. Once that is addressed, Inside-Out tracking will be an upgrade to external sensors.
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  • Chump_ChangeChump_Change Posts: 19
    NerveGear
    Netheri said:
    IF S could be used with external cameras and the og Rifts controllers, i would consider ordering the S-HMD only. But as a whole system replacing the old Rift? Not a chance! 20% better resolution (even wit better fressnels) is not enough to replace older Rift especially when it's said that the IPD area is narrower. Which most propably in my case means that i wouldn't get IPD right. 

    Back to the "waiting for Rift 2"-train.
    It can't run the OG controllers due to the tracking LED's being on the bottom. The headset wouldn't see the controllers anyway
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,149 Volunteer Moderator
    edited March 21
    @Cyion I'm not questioning you because I don't want Oculus to listen to this thread, Or because I don't want any forum reader to make their own decisions. I'm questioning you because I do want that, and I'm questioning the conclusions you're making, that's all. You think I'm bothered about more views from Oculus or forum members of this thread? Really? I'm not sure what to say there.

    Anyway, what are you basing your assessment of the inside-out tracking? are you including in your assessment the need for USB ports and the need for sensor setup, are you including in your assessment, headset occlusion, which can now never happen with inside-out tracking? You see, all things should be considered when making a statement about overall improvement or otherwise. Not to mention waiting for some hands-on reviews.

    Same deal with visual quality. Yes, blacks won't be as black but that's part, not all of overall visual quality is it? Check out some of the other threads regarding rendering and downsampling in the Rift during render, which may not be done in the Rift-S. Also , check Tested's comments on improved clarity of the Rift-S they tried., before making claims that it's overall inferior.

    And by the way, thanks for your thanks!

    Edit, I assume the thanks is ironic and you don't want me to question you anymore and tbh I'm not sure there's any benefit in me doing that, so I'll let you have the last word and move on. As I've said before, I intend to get a Rift-S while I wait for CV2 and I'll give it a thorough test and review. All the bad things and all the good things. You can take it or leave it. Cheers
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  • Chump_ChangeChump_Change Posts: 19
    NerveGear
    edited March 21
    Cyion said:
    Hello Oculus,

    I just would like to express my severe disappointment at the now confirmed features of the Oculus Rift S.

    Here are the deal breakers for me (ranked from biggest deal breaker to smallest):

    #1 - Lack of outside-in tracking (was hoping for something of the level of tracking that the vive has without having to plug 3 usb sensors in and all the hell that comes with that because of crappy motherboards/cords etc.)

         The reason this bothers me so much is I play games like Echo Arena and you need AMAZING tracking, I am constantly pushing off walls that are completely behind my back without looking and inside out tracking is insufficient.  I also will take a swing behind my back without looking and again inside out tracking won't cut it.

    #2 - Lack of a physical IPD adjustment

       My IPD has to be bang on or I end up getting headaches after playing longer then 2 hours.  If it is even 1 mm off, the headaches happen, if it is set just right, I can play for 8 hour plus with no side effects.  I cannot play test a rift S to find out if it will give me headaches for more then 2 hours.

    #3 - No option to set your refresh rate to 90 Hz

        If you want the default refresh rate to be 80 Hz fine, but give me the option to allow it to be 90 Hz.  When the fps gets lower than 90 fps I notice it and it does not feel good for me.

    #4 - Lack of quality headphone included with the headset

       I love the sound on my rift CV1 and I will not accept anything less and I don't want to have another wire that my hand can bump into when I am playing highly competitive games since I would have to plug in my own headphones.

    The small jump in resolution doesn't outweigh all the negatives I have mentioned above and a slight increase in the FOV would have been nice!

    I think Oculus has failed in that they should have been developing the Rift S and another new Rift headset that is geared towards those enthusiasts who are willing to pay a bit more for a QUALITY headset.  You have made an AFFORDABLE headset that will get a lot of new people into VR but you have neglected the wants of a LARGE CORE (enthusiasts) of your fans!

    Your future headsets has to have a outside in tracking option and an physical adjustable IPD or I will never buy another oculus headset.  At this point I don't want to wait another 2 years for a new proper headset that meets these requirements and my money will likely go to another company that pulls this off in the mean time.  I wish I bought all of my games on the steam store now.  Wouldn't have imagined Oculus's next headset would be so contrary to what I want.

    Sincerely,

    Cyion
    I think these complaints are either going to be a non-issue or there is nothing officially released to confirm your complaints.

    #1- According to the stuff that has been released to date by Oculus (not some "leak" from the dark corners of the internet), the headset is not confirmed to be non-360 tracking and I doubt that they would release a headset under the Rift name that wouldn't have 360 tracking. Especially in 2019.

    #2- With the new lenses, there is no need for an IPD adjustment due to the wide viewing angle. It's the same reason it was removed on the Go.
    #3- Where are you reading that it will be sub 90Hz?
    #4- I actually agree with this.

    I would be weary to call this headset a failure before there is any more official information that has been released. It is your choice to not buy the headset, I am not here to make you buy it. But using a public voice to negatively review a product with initial launch information is a little premature in my opinion.

    If the poster wants to share their sources of this information, I would be more than happy to read it and change my mind but any third party website should be taken with a grain of salt.

    ~Chump_Change
  • ShineHunterShineHunter Posts: 26
    Brain Burst
    Zenbane said:
    When news like this arrives, it's always the same. A flood of new posters, and then the "Legacy Trolls" log back in.
    I've been signed up for years, but had nothing to say till now. Love my Rift and everything about it. 
  • Devlin-DarksideDevlin-Darkside Posts: 130
    Art3mis
    edited March 22
    Keep selling the rift as is and release a premium version with upgraded resolution so all current rift owners had to do was by a new HMD that works with our current controllers and tracking system. Minimum fuss, environmental and monetary impact.

    Add the quest and all bases covered with minimum fuss
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,700 Valuable Player
    I am amazed by the passion being expressed on the Oculus Facebook forums (both closed and open), they are creating chain posts demanding changes and making suggestions. This must be the best free intelligence from the VR community since the DK1 and DK2. I only hope that the right people remaining at Oculus VR are listening.
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  • dburnedburne Posts: 2,713 Valuable Player
    Oculus were at the top of the game with the CV1 especially after Touch Controllers became available.
    Now that has all changed.
    RIP CV1.
    Don

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  • TC1999TC1999 Posts: 184
    Art3mis
    edited March 22
    Oculus is the leading light in VR and slowly moving towards market dominance if only by the steam survey reports as an  indicator.

    What happens if this side grade of rift fails, it doesn't encourage existing rift owners to upgrade, it doesn't encourage current PC gamers who have avoided VR due to the hardware not being compelling enough for them to drop their triple or 4k screens, and finally it doesn't bring console gamers or anybody else to the PC domain, what happens then....

    My concern is we start to see rift lose ground to other HMD's over the next 6 months via steam survey reports. Will Lenovo still be happy to produce an HMD that is not selling in the numbers they need. Will Facebook pull the plug?

    Palmer Lucky "FREE IS NOT CHEAP ENOUGH"  Is absolutely valid even if the Rift S drops to £299 which I think it will be by the end of the year is still not cheap enough, and even if that encourages sales that is only one side of the coin you need customers on your platform, using it and buying from it. Not just buying the HMD because its cheap trying it out and then packing it away. 

    Yes PC hardware is an absolute issue and producing an HMD that only a small minority or people with 1080ti or 2080ti can use is also not the answer. Pimax have only sold around 6000 to 8000 units that's ok for them but a drop in the ocean for any company trying to build a platform and infrastructure.  

    However looking at the response on youtube and press has been mixed to say best, with some saying it's not worth buying, stating all the reasons people have said on this forum. 

    I feel if they had given us a tethered Quest with a larger FOV of 140 degress that would at least been interesting and a pathway to what the future can hold. This would have been possible to run on a mid level PC. 

    I just can not figure out what Facebook game plan is for PCVR and there is a part of me thinks they don't know either. 


  • OmegaM4NOmegaM4N Posts: 554
    Neo
    Techy111 said:

    His face, i feel for him, must have thought he had won the lottery. lol
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,149 Volunteer Moderator
    You make some valid points there @TC1999.

    The only thing I'd question is that FOV being drivable on mid-level PCs. That's a 40-45% increase. Some people are more interested in pixels per degree increase so is that worthy of a similar 40% improvement? Even at the same PPD, we're upping the current minimum spec by 40% (assuming only an increase in horizontal FOV), and the current spec is above mid range by most people's standards.

    My expecrtations are both a PPD increase and an FOV increase. I don't think I could call anything less and enthusiast HMD now, which, unless I'm wrong is what we want from Oculus' next top tier headset.

    If the complaints are that the top tier headset hasn't arrived now, I'd say it's just a little too early... by about 12 months. If the complaint is about Oculus not communicating when their next top tier headset is arriving, just to keep enthusiasts happy, well they've never really done that until relatively close to launch.

    Neither complaint is invalid but just not a reason to complain about the Rift-S imho, which isn't trying to be that headset.
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  • TC1999TC1999 Posts: 184
    Art3mis
    Yep DaftnDirect I agree we do need another 12 months for PC hardware to come down in price and offer more performance. 

    I mention the fov because Carmack said in his OC4 talk that they have lenses that can comfortable do 140 degrees and was running at that time on current PC hardware. 

    Today with fixed foveated rendering and the improvements in ASW that 140 is possible, however I could be wrong. Even 120 would be good, sadly right now a number of youtuber who have tried the Rift S say the FOV appears smaller then the rift. 

    Ultimately it will be out and it could be great or not either way time will give us the answer as to whether this was the right way to go. 
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,669 Valuable Player
    edited March 22
    OmegaM4N said:
    Techy111 said:

    His face, i feel for him, must have thought he had won the lottery. lol

    I had a strange encounter like this walking through my town once. There was this girl with two lads and she did exactly what this woman did, but did hug and kiss me. At first I thought she must have mistaken me for someone else, but she just walked away after doing it leaving me not knowing what to think. I have to admit for the rest of the day I thought I was Gods gift to women :D
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,149 Volunteer Moderator
    Agreed @TC1999
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