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Rift S Disappointment Thread so Oculus knows our feedback!

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  • Little.Robot.FairyLittle.Robot.Fairy Posts: 20
    NerveGear
    edmg said:
    Zenbane said:
    You don't see how the evolution of VR headsets in to contact lenses would serve as a replacement for VR HMD's?? Then how do you see Inside-Out tracking as a replacement for Outside-In? lol
    This is just getting silly. VR contact lenses are just VR HMDs in a more convenient package. Inside-out tracking is a fundamentally different technology, even if both use cameras.

    Outside-in tech was necessary in 2016, but no-one would have used it if inside-out was easy to do at that time. The cool kids might still use VR HMDs in twenty years when VR contact lenses are readily available, just as they play vinyl records today. But only a handful of people with very specialized requirements are going to be using outside-in tracking.
    There is a tried and true, common saying that "if something is not broke, do not fix it."

    I'm not a hipster, but I prefer to play my 16-Bit and 32-Bit games, 240p and 480i games, on as high quality of a CRT as possible. That is because that is what I believe they genuinely play best on. And I'm far from alone, many many people have noticed the downgrade it is to play these games on modern flat panels. These games were meant to be played this way. 240p games were meant to have scanlines and look best on as high of quality phosphors as possible, something even high accuracy CRT emulators like CRT royale, on 4K OLED HDR still fails to fully and completely recreate. These games were designed for these screens and look far more detailed and better. Developers used the tricks that these screens, with scanlines, interlacing, phosphors, and ect. had, to create detail where there was none. Chrono Trigger looks like a pixelated mess without the display.

    And there's a reason that Super Metroid speedrunners and Smash Bros. Melee Pros don't "get with the times and play on a modern display instead of obsolete technology". It's because modern displays are a downgrade and simply worse. They all introduce an unplayable degree of input lag. Whereas not only does playing these games with an analogue RGB or component cable connection look much better than on a LCD or even OLED display, being analogue, there is no perceptible input lag, inputs are near instantaneous, which is not true of modern flat panels with digital connections. No CRT means no Super Metroid world record.


    As for inside out tracking, the technology doesn't seem to be there yet. I've seen impressions of the Rift S yes, and while it has several more cameras on the HMD than WMR headsets, which have very bad tracking that isn't even a 10th as good as on Rift. From what I've heard from people who demo'd it at GDC, the tracking, while leagues better than what one has to suffer through with WMR, it still isn't as good or reliable as the original Rift with outside-in tracking. Which means that one of the things they traded off, was the high quality tracking. They took something that wasn't broke, the decent outside-in tracking of the CV1 Rift, and fixed it, offering us a compromised, inside-out tracking experience based on a technology that isn't quite ready yet.

    I don't think that we should hurriedly move to a technology that isn't ready yet. And it sounds like inside-out tracking technology isn't quite ready yet and can't offer as good of an experience as CV1 Rift or Vive. I think it's premature to cast off any technology while it still provides a better experience or advantages over what will replace it.

    We're finally reaching days where ultra-low latency OLED displays are offering latency and even computers able to recreate the full quality of the look that CRTs provided, but even that has taken a very long time and isn't fully there yet. And there's nothing wrong with sticking with a CRT, especially as converting these signals introduces input lag. In many cases, it is still the only choice, considering what game you are playing and how you are playing it.

    If outside-in provides the better tracking experience, and everything I've read and seen seems to point to that, then Oculus should still provide a solution for people who want that experience, instead of having Vive as their only option for quality tracking.
    Old VR PC: HP Pavillion Power,  Intel Core i5-7400, NVIDIA GTX 1060 3GB Graphics, 8 GB RAM
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  • DeanmrdDeanmrd Posts: 2
    NerveGear
    edited March 23

    It concerns me the most is the IPD, My IPD is 70 so I am only just able play on the rift,

    Don't think I am willing to buy anymore games off oculus store as they can't be trusted to develop with all people in mind.

    If anything happens to my head set I would have to switch and find a new vr driver losing all games I have purchased on the oculus store. 

    Shame on you oculus. 
  • dburnedburne Posts: 2,062 Valuable Player
    Yeah at this time I will not be making any more purchases from the Oculus Store. 
    Not until I figure out for sure which headset I will be going with, which at this time is looking most likely the Reverb.

    Course if I do pick up a Quest then that will change again.


    Don

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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,395 Valuable Player
    Deanmrd said:

    It concerns me the most is the IPD, My IPD is 70 so I am only just able play on the rift,

    Don't think I am willing to buy anymore games off oculus store as they can't be trusted to develop with all people in mind.

    If anything happens to my head set I would have to switch and find a new vr driver losing all games I have purchased on the oculus store. 

    Shame on you oculus. 

    Someone on Reddit with a 72mm IPD tried the Rift S and didn't have any problems with it, so you might be okay.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • Devlin-DarksideDevlin-Darkside Posts: 129
    Art3mis
    edited March 23
    Deanmrd said:

    It concerns me the most is the IPD, My IPD is 70 so I am only just able play on the rift,

    Don't think I am willing to buy anymore games off oculus store as they can't be trusted to develop with all people in mind.

    If anything happens to my head set I would have to switch and find a new vr driver losing all games I have purchased on the oculus store. 

    Shame on you oculus. 
    I will never trust any corporation, all decisions they make are self motivated and the only thing that effects their choices is profit.

    This is why I make all purchases with the same self interest on a platform that is common to all where possible.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 5,848 Valuable Player
    edited March 23
    @DaftnDirect - Yes, I think there's a lot of people just saying they will get a HP Reverb, but like me had forgotten that a higher a resolution also means needing a better Graphics Card. Yes a Geforce 1080 will work on a HP Reverb, but I'm sure it isn't going to be a great experience. I think a Geforce 1080 will run great on a Rift -S and given that is the card most gamers have right now, then I'm sure the Rift -S will sell very well. I hope it does to keep the VR dream alive for years to come. I'd hate to think these companies don't sell enough headsets and just decide to shelve PC-VR altogether for that reason.


  • jayhawkjayhawk Posts: 755
    3Jane
    Deanmrd said:

    It concerns me the most is the IPD, My IPD is 70 so I am only just able play on the rift,
    That's evidence of alien DNA. You can't blame Oculus.
  • HiThere_HiThere_ Posts: 1,275
    3Jane
    edited March 23
    edmg said:
    Outside-in tracking was a quick hack to get cheap 6DOF VR working, not a long-term technology.
    Quite the opposite : Outside-in attempts to track the whole body, all the time, all the place, potentially allowing to track the elbows, knees, feet and more to provide full body tracking (which is why the HTC Vive already provides leg tracking), while inside-out tracking is a quick hack to get cheap 6DOF VR working by just keeping track of the headset and two hands, not all the time, and never in some places.

    Which doesn't mean inside-out tracking won't be the most popular low-end option, since it's a quick hack that focuses on tracking the bare essential parts (headset and hands) at a reduced cost (in price and setup complexity).
  • ShocksOculusShocksOculus Posts: 296
    Nexus 6
    RedRizla said:
    @DaftnDirect - Yes, I think there's a lot of people just saying they will get a HP Reverb, but like me had forgotten that a higher a resolution also means needing a better Graphics Card. Yes a Geforce 1080 will work on a HP Reverb, but I'm sure it isn't going to be a great experience. I think a Geforce 1080 will run great on a Rift -S and given that is the card most gamers have right now, then I'm sure the Rift -S will sell very well. I hope it does to keep the VR dream alive for years to come. I'd hate to think these companies don't sell enough headsets and just decide to shelve PC-VR altogether for that reason.


    HP has stated the GTX 1080 is the MINIMUM.  You know you're gonna need something better to play those games.
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  • ShineHunterShineHunter Posts: 26
    Brain Burst

    Just watched today's F.Reality livestream discussing Rift-S vs Reverb.

    Most of the points they were making are points that have been made several times in the numerous threads here. You're going to need a 2080ti to run the Reverb, I'd assumed that but there was some talk of needing something less, less won't be good enough for most games, so if you don't have one allow for that cost. If you're worried about inside-out tracking with the 2 cameras, you'll also have to buy a Vive so you can run the Reverb with Lightning sensors. The controllers are uncomfortable and burn through batteries fast and you'll have to rely on Revive for Oculus games.

    Oculus Quest is 1600p and can run on a out dated mobile chip so yes this you need this to run this is BS. All depends on the games. 
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,629 Valuable Player

    Just watched today's F.Reality livestream discussing Rift-S vs Reverb.

    Most of the points they were making are points that have been made several times in the numerous threads here. You're going to need a 2080ti to run the Reverb, I'd assumed that but there was some talk of needing something less, less won't be good enough for most games, so if you don't have one allow for that cost. If you're worried about inside-out tracking with the 2 cameras, you'll also have to buy a Vive so you can run the Reverb with Lightning sensors. The controllers are uncomfortable and burn through batteries fast and you'll have to rely on Revive for Oculus games.

    Oculus Quest is 1600p and can run on a out dated mobile chip so yes this you need this to run this is BS. All depends on the games.

    Totally agree. We know the games that will be running on a Reverb as we run them now, so GPU estimates for Reverb I think are pretty accurate. Quest games will be graphically less complex because they'll have to be. They'll also take up less memory because they'll have to.

    I think when Oculus say Quest will give a Rift-like experience, we need to remember that they mean Rift-like with a LOT of optimisation by games devs.

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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,270
    Wintermute
    RedRizla said:
    @DaftnDirect - Yes, I think there's a lot of people just saying they will get a HP Reverb, but like me had forgotten that a higher a resolution also means needing a better Graphics Card. Yes a Geforce 1080 will work on a HP Reverb, but I'm sure it isn't going to be a great experience. I think a Geforce 1080 will run great on a Rift -S and given that is the card most gamers have right now, then I'm sure the Rift -S will sell very well. I hope it does to keep the VR dream alive for years to come. I'd hate to think these companies don't sell enough headsets and just decide to shelve PC-VR altogether for that reason.


    HP has stated the GTX 1080 is the MINIMUM.  You know you're gonna need something better to play those games.
    Yea I'm hoping we get some actual benchmarks. I have money set aside for an Ampere upgrade already but Nvidia is in cruise control since AMD is no threat. With my Odyssey+, I run it normally at 2015x2520 with a 1080 and I can play everything except fallout 4 at that setting. I'm hoping I can run the HP at native until next gen cards release or even downsample a bit. At 2160x2160 everything is going to be super sharp already. Hopefully we get some early reviews.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,629 Valuable Player

    I'm hoping for further nvidia releases along the lines of their 1660ti. Something with the non-raytracing performance of a 2080ti. So maybe a 1680ti ? The problem for nvidia is that such a card would probably put the breaks on RTX sales so they'd have to decide what's more important... overall sales or continuing to push ray-tracing.

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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,270
    Wintermute
    edited March 24

    I'm hoping for further nvidia releases along the lines of their 1660ti. Something with the non-raytracing performance of a 2080ti. So maybe a 1680ti ? The problem for nvidia is that such a card would probably put the breaks on RTX sales so they'd have to decide what's more important... overall sales or continuing to push ray-tracing.

    Yea, that might be a doable upgrade for me. The Raytracing tech is why the RTX cards were outrageous and until VR starts using it, I don't really care that much about it. I should also mention that, I can't run ultra in every game with those resolution settings on my odyssey. I just leave it at 200% and reduce some graphical settings when I need more performance. I prefer the clarity. Seeking Dawn I run on medium for example. With the way the Odyssey diffuser works, moving off the 200% supersample target results in more blur for me so I tailor the games around that. The average game though I usually run high with no problem. Fallout 4 VR is a monster and I gotta free up some performance when I play it.
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,270
    Wintermute
    Speaking of performance, small detour here, the Rift really needs something like FPSVR. It is sooo easy to tweak games with that application. Look down at your wrist and all of your performance metrics are there....and then with OpenVR advanced settings you can change them on the fly and see the performance changes realtime. I hope Oculus adds something like that in their software natively.
  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 4,375 Valuable Player

    Just watched today's F.Reality livestream discussing Rift-S vs Reverb.

    Most of the points they were making are points that have been made several times in the numerous threads here. You're going to need a 2080ti to run the Reverb, I'd assumed that but there was some talk of needing something less, less won't be good enough for most games, so if you don't have one allow for that cost. If you're worried about inside-out tracking with the 2 cameras, you'll also have to buy a Vive so you can run the Reverb with Lightning sensors. The controllers are uncomfortable and burn through batteries fast and you'll have to rely on Revive for Oculus games.

    Oculus Quest is 1600p and can run on a out dated mobile chip so yes this you need this to run this is BS. All depends on the games. 
    Oculus Quest may have 1600p screens, but it only renders a 2560x1280 image and upscales it to the displays.
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  • ShineHunterShineHunter Posts: 26
    Brain Burst
    nalex66 said:

    Just watched today's F.Reality livestream discussing Rift-S vs Reverb.

    Most of the points they were making are points that have been made several times in the numerous threads here. You're going to need a 2080ti to run the Reverb, I'd assumed that but there was some talk of needing something less, less won't be good enough for most games, so if you don't have one allow for that cost. If you're worried about inside-out tracking with the 2 cameras, you'll also have to buy a Vive so you can run the Reverb with Lightning sensors. The controllers are uncomfortable and burn through batteries fast and you'll have to rely on Revive for Oculus games.

    Oculus Quest is 1600p and can run on a out dated mobile chip so yes this you need this to run this is BS. All depends on the games. 
    Oculus Quest may have 1600p screens, but it only renders a 2560x1280 image and upscales it to the displays.
    I didn't know this. However still the same answer. Quest can run 2560x1280 then upscale it to 1600p with just a out dated 435 mobile CPU. The Rift S could of had 2k per eye screens and If your system isn't cutting it then just lower the quality settings plus SS. It should still look good and be able to run it. 
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 5,848 Valuable Player
    edited March 24
    I didn't know this. However still the same answer. Quest can run 2560x1280 then upscale it to 1600p with just a out dated 435 mobile CPU. The Rift S could of had 2k per eye screens and If your system isn't cutting it then just lower the quality settings plus SS. It should still look good and be able to run it. 

    Two screens at 2k per eye and at 80Hz? That would require something better then a Geforce 1080 for games with good graphics. Unless off-course you use ASW at 45 FPS, but who wants a crappy 45 FPS? They have made the Rift-S, so that you get a great experience with a Geforce 1080 and don't need a highend graphics card. That makes total sense if they want to sell to the masses and not to just people with a Geforce 2080Ti. 
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,629 Valuable Player
    edited March 24
    I think there's a little bit of overestimating of what GPUs are capable of. I'm going to call this the Pimax Syndrome.
    The cure being foveated rendering/eye tracking.
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  • ShineHunterShineHunter Posts: 26
    Brain Burst
    I think there's a little bit of overestimating of GPUs are capable of. I'm going to call this the Pimax Syndrome.
    The cure being foveated rendering/eye tracking.
    Also consoles can do so much with crap hardware. Just play God of war, wow it looks great. Games made right can run on alot less. 

  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,629 Valuable Player
    edited March 24
    I think there's a little bit of overestimating of GPUs are capable of. I'm going to call this the Pimax Syndrome.
    The cure being foveated rendering/eye tracking.
    Also consoles can do so much with crap hardware. Just play God of war, wow it looks great. Games made right can run on alot less. 

    At what frame rate? Unless I'm mistaken, they're locked at either 30 or 60 fps. Console games tend to have a lot of things pre-baked which wouldn't be great on PC where the monitor is close enough to see the difference. Definitely neither would be acceptable in VR.
    I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong, just different hardware requires different approaches.
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  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 965
    3Jane
    I've already posted this in another thread here https://forums.oculusvr.com/community/discussion/74270/brace-yourselves-official-rift-s-reveal-is-coming/p28 but someone said Oculus have decided based on our feedback to offer us a headphones addon for Rift S, I don't know if this is true though.
  • Devlin-DarksideDevlin-Darkside Posts: 129
    Art3mis
    I've already posted this in another thread here https://forums.oculusvr.com/community/discussion/74270/brace-yourselves-official-rift-s-reveal-is-coming/p28 but someone said Oculus have decided based on our feedback to offer us a headphones addon for Rift S, I don't know if this is true though.
    Whats the point in that? Everyone has a set of headphones laying around. The point was we now have 1 more extra thing to put on making it more hassle to get in and out of VR.
  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,721 Volunteer Moderator
    edited March 24
    The headphones were a point of failure, including the strap (and the cable strip within it) causing a lot of frustration. Removing this makes for a more durable product. Everyone has a pair of their favourite headphones these days. Plus the audio is actually pretty meaty from those side bars.
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  • Little.Robot.FairyLittle.Robot.Fairy Posts: 20
    NerveGear
    The headphones were a point of failure, including the strap (and the cable strip within it) causing a lot of frustration. Removing this makes for a more durable product. Everyone has a pair of their favourite headphones these days. Plus the audio is actually pretty meaty from those side bars.
    They were definitely a problem for me. And why I sent mine in for repair the first time. And there are a lot of third party headphones and headsets available. I recently bought a Corsair Void Pro. So I don't personally feel as much disappointment about this part of the Rift S.

    At the same time, it would have been far nicer if the Rift S did include proper headphones, and they instead spent the time trying to make them more robust. Plus I'm not sure how comfortable my Void Pro would be with the Rift S.

    Even if it isn't as much of a loss for me now personally, it still feels like a loss.
    Old VR PC: HP Pavillion Power,  Intel Core i5-7400, NVIDIA GTX 1060 3GB Graphics, 8 GB RAM
    New VR PC: HP Omen 880-130,    Intel Core i7-8700K, GTX 1080TI, 16GB RAM, 512 GB SSD

    What I use VR for:
    VRChat! Also, Airtone, Beat Saber, OrbusVR, SkyrimVR and DolphinVR

    Features I most want:
    1. Full Body Tracking 2. Full finger tracking 3. Haptics 4. Wireless Tracking 5. Wider FOV 6. Improved Resolution/Less Screendoor
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,348 Valuable Player
    edited March 24
    The headphones were a point of failure, including the strap (and the cable strip within it) causing a lot of frustration. Removing this makes for a more durable product. Everyone has a pair of their favourite headphones these days. Plus the audio is actually pretty meaty from those side bars.
    The problem with how you say that is that:
    1) Not every headphone will work
    2) Extra cables and another piece of hardware you will have to take off
    3) Not all will fit and work with that new head strap

    1) Some headphones use amps and others are USB. How will they work with this new design without running more cables?
    2) It just more stuff people have to deal with to get in and out of VR making the experience even less.

    If anything - maybe have the Rift S come with clip on headphones. Even if they break - they can be replace by the user later on by buying a new pair and optional use if you do want to switch to headphones.
  • ShocksOculusShocksOculus Posts: 296
    Nexus 6
    From the Road to VR article, Oculus may be working on accessory headphones for the Rift-S

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  • DeanmrdDeanmrd Posts: 2
    NerveGear
    edited March 25
    snowdog said:
    Deanmrd said:

    It concerns me the most is the IPD, My IPD is 70 so I am only just able play on the rift,

    Don't think I am willing to buy anymore games off oculus store as they can't be trusted to develop with all people in mind.

    If anything happens to my head set I would have to switch and find a new vr driver losing all games I have purchased on the oculus store. 

    Shame on you oculus. 

    Someone on Reddit with a 72mm IPD tried the Rift S and didn't have any problems with it, so you might be okay.
    Thanks for the info my IPD is infact 72 until I went to the optician's yesterday thought it was 70.

    Off topic is the anyway to play rift games if you have a htc vive? 
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,395 Valuable Player
    Deanmrd said:
    snowdog said:
    Deanmrd said:

    It concerns me the most is the IPD, My IPD is 70 so I am only just able play on the rift,

    Don't think I am willing to buy anymore games off oculus store as they can't be trusted to develop with all people in mind.

    If anything happens to my head set I would have to switch and find a new vr driver losing all games I have purchased on the oculus store. 

    Shame on you oculus. 

    Someone on Reddit with a 72mm IPD tried the Rift S and didn't have any problems with it, so you might be okay.
    Thanks for the info my IPD is infact 72 until I went to the optician's yesterday thought it was 70.

    Off topic is the anyway to play rift games if you have a htc vive? 

    Yup, you can use Revive to play Rift games on the Vive.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
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