Rift S seems okay... but no more Rift? What about 360 demanding room-scale games? — Oculus
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Rift S seems okay... but no more Rift? What about 360 demanding room-scale games?

Cain_BloodbaneCain_Bloodbane Posts: 58
Hiro Protagonist
First I was excited about the Rift S... it has a lot of what I hoped to see in a new Rift headset. It also made sense to replace the current Rift. But the more I think about it, the more of a problem I see with this. Already the Rift is not being sold by Oculus in the US. I expect it will be the same in Europe and Australia soon as well.

The problem is Oculus knows and says themselves that there are blind spots for the Rift S tracking. I really like the inside out tracking concept... but there needs to be an alternative as long as inside out tracking is not 360 tracking. The Rift S is said to have 300 degrees of tracking, there is also a blind spot close to your face, and these 60 degrees behind you. That is a problem for several games I think. Especially Lone Echo, Lone Echo 2 and Echo VR.

How can Oculus justify this move, while having Rift exclusive games, some that have not even been released yet, that will have issues with only 300 degrees of tracking?

I have not even heard anything about predictive algorithms and 3DoF tracking while out of sensor range. What I have heard though, is that Oculus "might" make it possible to use the Rift sensors to help the Rift S with its tracking... but as I see it, they need to confirm a solution to this as soon as possible. They cannot make exclusive deals and then backstab loyal developers, and the people who will be new Oculus VR owners this way.

I am really looking forward to the Quest, but... if this is how Oculus is moving forward, burning bridges this way, I think I will wait for alternatives because they do not seem to have any loyalty to their users or developers.

Am I the only one who sees a pretty big problem here? I sure hope its not as bad as it seems.

Comments

  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,629 Valuable Player
    edited March 22
    I don't think 360 or 300 tracking is covering the whole story. It's really about how well the 60 degrees that's not being tracked (if that's what it is) is going to be dealt with via the inertial sensors.

    For that, you'd have to consider the length of time that your hands enter that 60, the number of times they enter it plus the accuracy of the inertial sensors.

    And for a complete assessment of the tracking comparisons, you'll have to also add headset occlusion to the mix (I don't think it'll ever happen with inside-out. And whether your roomscale room is void of all objects that could occlude headset or hands (not all VR rooms are dedicated VR rooms).

    I keep banging on about it but I really don't think it's going to be an issue. More than that, I think it's actually going to be better for the majority of people. I'm prepared to be completely wrong and I'm going to be reading/watching reviews with as much interest as everyone else.
    Intel 5820K OC@4Ghz, Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v1809 (17763.348)
  • Cain_BloodbaneCain_Bloodbane Posts: 58
    Hiro Protagonist
    From what I have heard, we should be seeing some people give this some proper tests. I fear Oculus will just expect us to adapt, like WMR users, trying to accomodate for the limitations of the tracking to make it possible to play bow and arrow games for example, but standing in certain ways and shooting the arrows in certain ways.

    The first day or so I was optimistic about the Rift S, and its tracking. 5 sensors is the best tracking yet for inside out headsets, and I did not even think about the Rift being outfased as a problem. But the more I think about it, the more worried I get.

    It might just be the push I need though, to move on the Lighthouse based systems and get those promising Knuckles controllers. When it comes to high end PC VR, that seems to be where we have to go.

    The Rift is great, but it just feels like its not really the same company that made the Rift and the Rift S. Its beginning to feel like its the same company in name only.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,629 Valuable Player
    If there is negative feedback on the tracking, I'm confident it'll be addresses in future headsets if it can't be dealt with via software revisions. I may be the only one who's confident about that from reading some of the posts lately!

    I'd rather it was introduced and perfected than not introduced at all as it offers some compelling advantages.
    Intel 5820K OC@4Ghz, Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v1809 (17763.348)
  • jayhawkjayhawk Posts: 755
    3Jane
    edited March 22
    Headline makes me think of 3 things:
    1. What percentage of games require this?
    2. I thought inside-out was room scale out of the box, so wouldn't it do room scale better?
    3. Another reference to Lone Echo. I'll reserve judgement when I see people playing the game using Rift S. I do know this for a fact: It will either work well, or it won't.
  • SpuzzumSpuzzum Posts: 93
    Hiro Protagonist
    Tested put out a video 'hands-on and impressions', where they interviewed Nate Mitchell himself. He says Insight is not as good as the external trackers, and that you'll have issues with it behind your back, too close to the headset, and when you cross one arm over the other. He says it's a trade-off, but they feel the experience outweighs the disadvantages. He then says Oculus is moving away from external trackers altogether. He also said the same team that works on the external tracking, is working on Insight. Norm then asked if they'd consider using external trackers along with the inside-out tracking...he said they'd listen to what the people wanted. I also came across something the other day saying the new Quest/Rift S controllers will also work with the Rift and external sensors, just the old Touch controllers won't work with the new headsets. If that's the case, then all that's needed, is a bit of coding, and an option within Oculus setup.
  • SpuzzumSpuzzum Posts: 93
    Hiro Protagonist
    edited March 22
    There was also a blog by uploadvr, where they talked about tracking issues they encountered with the Quest as OC5, saying they had issues by simply turning a knob in the game, because it turned the ring away from the headset. That's going to create issues if you pick something up and need to turn it over to read it. There's also the issue of holding your guns out in one direction, but turning your head to look in another direction. That's going to cause issues.

    edit: That also goes for any game where you hold a phone to your ear, such as Budget Cuts. Because the ring of the controller is on the top now, and the position of the controller when you hold the phone close to your ear, the cameras to the sides of the headset might not even be able to see the ring. That's if the controller's not to close to the camera to begin with. Even boxing might be an issue...holding your gloves up to block your head, you usually hold them with your palms towards your face. That would turn the rings outwards, not being picked up by the cameras. It would also put them too close. That definitely will be an issue.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 13,661 Valuable Player
    edited March 23
    In all sincerity, I do put my hand in areas that any Inside-Out tracking system will easily fail to track; such as with boxing games like, Creed. This is because my preferred boxing stance is similar to Mr. Mayweather:



    My right hand would be too close to the HMD (problem area 1) and my left hand would be occluded by my right arm.

    This is how I was winning those PvP battles that caused folks to rage a bit:



    I don't wanna be negative about Rift-S, I just hope that Oculus allows external sensor integration so that I can purchase this new HMD and still enjoy my existing VR library to its fullest extent.

    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
  • SpuzzumSpuzzum Posts: 93
    Hiro Protagonist
    edited March 23
    That's what I'm hoping for...allowing us to add the external trackers to the internal tracking HMDs. Keeps everybody happy, and Oculus sells more cameras. Win win for everyone. :)

    I'm still curious as to how holding the phone in Budget Cuts is going to work out.
  • Woody3DWoody3D Posts: 55
    Hiro Protagonist
    edited March 23
    First I was excited about the Rift S... it has a lot of what I hoped to see in a new Rift headset. It also made sense to replace the current Rift. But the more I think about it, the more of a problem I see with this. Already the Rift is not being sold by Oculus in the US. I expect it will be the same in Europe and Australia soon as well.

    The problem is Oculus knows and says themselves that there are blind spots for the Rift S tracking. I really like the inside out tracking concept... but there needs to be an alternative as long as inside out tracking is not 360 tracking. The Rift S is said to have 300 degrees of tracking, there is also a blind spot close to your face, and these 60 degrees behind you. That is a problem for several games I think. Especially Lone Echo, Lone Echo 2 and Echo VR.

    How can Oculus justify this move, while having Rift exclusive games, some that have not even been released yet, that will have issues with only 300 degrees of tracking?

    I have not even heard anything about predictive algorithms and 3DoF tracking while out of sensor range. What I have heard though, is that Oculus "might" make it possible to use the Rift sensors to help the Rift S with its tracking... but as I see it, they need to confirm a solution to this as soon as possible. They cannot make exclusive deals and then backstab loyal developers, and the people who will be new Oculus VR owners this way.

    I am really looking forward to the Quest, but... if this is how Oculus is moving forward, burning bridges this way, I think I will wait for alternatives because they do not seem to have any loyalty to their users or developers.

    Am I the only one who sees a pretty big problem here? I sure hope its not as bad as it seems.


    NO.  It is definitely not as bad as it seems.  I have a Rift (I have since the beginning!)  I also have a Samsung Odyssey.  After thinking about the tracking situation, I think the most revealing thing I can say is this:
    When I used my Samsung Odyssey in the first weeks, it was hard to get used to.  then they started to increase the 'intelligence' of the software, giving it predictive, and reactive algorithms.  Now, when I am in Lone Echo, The Climb, Time Transit, or JET ISLAND,  I no longer notice any problems at all with the tracking,  as a VR Developer,  I am highly adaptive yes, but they ALSO,  made it much better, If you reach behind you to grab something, then pull your arm back the rock or Arrow or Flashlight is indeed in your hand,.
       . It is perfectly able (check out your shadows!) to track your hand behind you, and then even though it is completely out of sight, TRACK YOUR HAND BACK with smart algorithms they evolved using our own game play styles.
    If my Odyssey wit it's 2 cameras can do that, bring me to what I would estimate is fully 90-95% of the full tracked experience, then 5 Cameras, is a HUGE BOON,.  I suspect the tracking will be ROCK SOLID.  One would have to REALLY twist to get it out of all sight, AND EVEN THEN THE PREDICTIVE ALGORITHMS WOULD COME INTO PLAY MAKING IT EVEN LESS LIKELY ONE WOULD NOTICE ANY PROBLEM! 

    The screen may not be a LED,.. BUT it has I believe 1/3 more sub-pixels than the VIVE Pro!  I have a feeling, one would very quickly adapt to that too, The level of CLARITY and Lowered God Rays and a slight FOV Bump (I have heard) , the GREAT THINGS people say about the Go!'s Screen and Lenses,..    I think the dark levels with be something we adapt to (OR FIND A WAY TO GET AROUND USING GPU Screen Output controls Gamma adjust etc...)   I think it will be a STUNNER... 
    My only problem, is that as a self-incarcerated Oculus Exclusive Developer (LOL I feel I owe them a few 'gratitude games'!) with 4 QUEST Games in the works,  I will almost certainly HAVE to buy a QUEST to really make sure my games work and are accepted the first time (I don't want to waste their time, I keep what I call a 'Carmack Checklist' of acceptable game variables, features, options, preferred compression/optimization schemes, Texture-Atlasing, Procedural/Variable based materials where possible etc. etc.) 
    My releases, are NOT little games, (one is,..) they are near AAA, pre-naturally optimized to near miraculous levels, but with the look of extreme photoreal, immersive warmth, imperfect imperfections,. etc.. ! (I use light, cheap, Facial Bones instead of Morph Targets, Edge fading algorithms to make flat-plane opacity mapped Trees etc, look normal...)   Ahem.   :)_

    SOOO,.  MY Biggest Problem now:
        I almost HAVE to get a QUEST but really WANT A RIFT S!   It is basically impossible for me to get both.  If only the Quest could be hooked up to PC>..  Or maybe even just .. 'receive a test build' from Unreal via WIFI or something? (Though that would not allow for working IN VR Editor mode, which I do whenever possible too,.  

    Anyways long story short,  I am a Developer and I am now, (having really thought about it, considered all the variables,). quite happy with both new devices,  Just.. not thatI will have to choose between them.  and continue with my old Rift for,.   a very long time until I release my games... (Which WILL Sell, I worked on film, TV (and games) in Hollywood for 25 years, as Visual FX and Character Animator.  I worked on the Hollywood Film Life of Pi 3D, I worked at Activision, Praxis Filmworks, Warner Bros.  I had an Animated TV show in the early 90's.  I am bringing all that experience to my Solo-Produced, Self-Taught Games,.  I am different,  THEY will be very different,..

    About Rift S:
    Remember my Friend,  Just 4 short, pre-CV1 years ago -> We would be MINDS BLOWN, DROOLING FOOLS, DOWN ON OUR KNEE's doing "We're Not Worthy!" bows:  if we hadn't had the RIFT before this.  It's all relative! 

    As for demanding 360° Room Scale games, they are just going to have to get used to being ARENA SCALE! :) 
    :) 

    Robert ('Woody') England
    @NextWorldVR
    @SchoolHomeVR

  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 13,661 Valuable Player
    edited March 23
    About Rift S:
    Remember my Friend,  We would be MINDS BLOWN, DROOLING FOOLS, DOWN ON OUR KNEE's doing "We're Not Worthy!" bows:  if we hadn't had the RIFT before this.


    True. Just as we would all be worshipping horse drawn carriages right now if we weren't born in to the era of motor vehicles first.

    I kid, I kid. Your post was actually inspiring - the way you described the learning/predictive algorithms. But you ended by basically implying that Rift CV1 is still better which killed the momentum! Taking your descriptions and first-hand experience at face-value, I'm actually now open to giving Rift-S a chance. Great feedback!

    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,398 Valuable Player
    Woody3D said:
    First I was excited about the Rift S... it has a lot of what I hoped to see in a new Rift headset. It also made sense to replace the current Rift. But the more I think about it, the more of a problem I see with this. Already the Rift is not being sold by Oculus in the US. I expect it will be the same in Europe and Australia soon as well.

    The problem is Oculus knows and says themselves that there are blind spots for the Rift S tracking. I really like the inside out tracking concept... but there needs to be an alternative as long as inside out tracking is not 360 tracking. The Rift S is said to have 300 degrees of tracking, there is also a blind spot close to your face, and these 60 degrees behind you. That is a problem for several games I think. Especially Lone Echo, Lone Echo 2 and Echo VR.

    How can Oculus justify this move, while having Rift exclusive games, some that have not even been released yet, that will have issues with only 300 degrees of tracking?

    I have not even heard anything about predictive algorithms and 3DoF tracking while out of sensor range. What I have heard though, is that Oculus "might" make it possible to use the Rift sensors to help the Rift S with its tracking... but as I see it, they need to confirm a solution to this as soon as possible. They cannot make exclusive deals and then backstab loyal developers, and the people who will be new Oculus VR owners this way.

    I am really looking forward to the Quest, but... if this is how Oculus is moving forward, burning bridges this way, I think I will wait for alternatives because they do not seem to have any loyalty to their users or developers.

    Am I the only one who sees a pretty big problem here? I sure hope its not as bad as it seems.


    NO.  It is definitely not as bad as it seems.  I have a Rift (I have since the beginning!)  I also have a Samsung Odyssey.  After thinking about the tracking situation, I think the most revealing thing I can say is this:
    When I used my Samsung Odyssey in the first weeks, it was hard to get used to.  then they started to increase the 'intelligence' of the software, giving it predictive, and reactive algorithms.  Now, when I am in Lone Echo, The Climb, Time Transit, or JET ISLAND,  I no longer notice any problems at all with the tracking,  as a VR Developer,  I am highly adaptive yes, but they ALSO,  made it much better, If you reach behind you to grab something, then pull your arm back the rock or Arrow or Flashlight is indeed in your hand,.
       . It is perfectly able (check out your shadows!) to track your hand behind you, and then even though it is completely out of sight, TRACK YOUR HAND BACK with smart algorithms they evolved using our own game play styles.
    If my Odyssey wit it's 2 cameras can do that, bring me to what I would estimate is fully 90-95% of the full tracked experience, then 5 Cameras, is a HUGE BOON,.  I suspect the tracking will be ROCK SOLID.  One would have to REALLY twist to get it out of all sight, AND EVEN THEN THE PREDICTIVE ALGORITHMS WOULD COME INTO PLAY MAKING IT EVEN LESS LIKELY ONE WOULD NOTICE ANY PROBLEM! 

    The screen may not be a LED,.. BUT it has I believe 1/3 more sub-pixels than the VIVE Pro!  I have a feeling, one would very quickly adapt to that too, The level of CLARITY and Lowered God Rays and a slight FOV Bump (I have heard) , the GREAT THINGS people say about the Go!'s Screen and Lenses,..    I think the dark levels with be something we adapt to (OR FIND A WAY TO GET AROUND USING GPU Screen Output controls Gamma adjust etc...)   I think it will be a STUNNER... 
    My only problem, is that as a self-incarcerated Oculus Exclusive Developer (LOL I feel I owe them a few 'gratitude games'!) with 4 QUEST Games in the works,  I will almost certainly HAVE to buy a QUEST to really make sure my games work and are accepted the first time (I don't want to waste their time, I keep what I call a 'Carmack Checklist' of acceptable game variables, features, options, preferred compression/optimization schemes, Texture-Atlasing, Procedural/Variable based materials where possible etc. etc.) 
    My releases, are NOT little games, (one is,..) they are near AAA, pre-naturally optimized to near miraculous levels, but with the look of extreme photoreal, immersive warmth, imperfect imperfections,. etc.. ! (I use light, cheap, Facial Bones instead of Morph Targets, Edge fading algorithms to make flat-plane opacity mapped Trees etc, look normal...)   Ahem.   :)_

    SOOO,.  MY Biggest Problem now:
        I almost HAVE to get a QUEST but really WANT A RIFT S!   It is basically impossible for me to get both.  If only the Quest could be hooked up to PC>..  Or maybe even just .. 'receive a test build' from Unreal via WIFI or something? (Though that would not allow for working IN VR Editor mode, which I do whenever possible too,.  

    Anyways long story short,  I am a Developer and I am now, (having really thought about it, considered all the variables,). quite happy with both new devices,  Just.. not thatI will have to choose between them.  and continue with my old Rift for,.   a very long time until I release my games... (Which WILL Sell, I worked on film, TV (and games) in Hollywood for 25 years, as Visual FX and Character Animator.  I worked on the Hollywood Film Life of Pi 3D, I worked at Activision, Praxis Filmworks, Warner Bros.  I had an Animated TV show in the early 90's.  I am bringing all that experience to my Solo-Produced, Self-Taught Games,.  I am different,  THEY will be very different,..

    About Rift S:
    Remember my Friend,  Just 4 short, pre-CV1 years ago -> We would be MINDS BLOWN, DROOLING FOOLS, DOWN ON OUR KNEE's doing "We're Not Worthy!" bows:  if we hadn't had the RIFT before this.  It's all relative! 

    As for demanding 360° Room Scale games, they are just going to have to get used to being ARENA SCALE! :) 
    :) 

    Robert ('Woody') England
    @NextWorldVR
    @SchoolHomeVR


    I strongly suspect that Oculus are going to give members of the Oculus Start programme free Quests after the headset has released, you'll probably get one delivered the day it releases imo. As a new headset they'll want developer support for it. New members will get free Rift S headsets instead of free Rift headsets too I think.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • kbloodkblood Posts: 3
    NerveGear
    I do hear from some that the WMR headsets are great at using predictive algorithms... but it really does not sound like it is the case with the Oculus inside out tracking yet. Also I do hear people who say it works great, but also people who say it does not. Like... how well does it work in boxing games? Bow and arrow games? People seem to keep saying that its not optimal to have WMR for that, and the same seems to go for the Rift S.

    So instead of hoping they can fix it with brilliant predictive algorithms, it seems to me though ought to add support for Rift sensors. If they do not, I just do not feel like supporting Oculus anymore. PC VR is what they set out to do and do great. The Rift is pretty great, but why would they replace it with a system with worse tracking? Rift S is a great alternative, but... only as that. It feels to me like they have begun cutting too many corners. I hope they will make this right, but it wont be many months before I have jumped ship if they dont.
  • ksnksn Posts: 28
    Brain Burst
    It's grave news. So sad Oculus do one step forward and one step back. Visual quality is important no doubts, but restrict using external sensors (you can NEVER make inside-outside tracking quality the same the external sensors would give) is not acceptable for me personally. Let's see Oculus move.

    Honestly i'm waiting Vive next move. If Vive make the same device but with external sensors i will change the platform. So sad but i really will. I have no interest in compromises, i want highest quality experiens and i want no any tracking issues. I'm ready to pay more money for "no compromise solution", not less, not more.

    So hope Oculus wont change enthusiasts for some pack of newbies that no really care of high quality.
    If say true i was shocked when heard the new generation of Rift device dropped external tracking system and get inside-outside tracking... It's so lame.
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