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Valve Index - Specifications released.

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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,454
    Project 2501
    JD-UK said:
    I won't buy this, even if it's the best one on the market, simply because I don't want to have to upgrade my PC yet again - and if I buy the Rift-S, which I intend doing, I can keep my current hardware and get the performance I require.

    I'll still be happy if the Index - or any other headset - turns out to be far better than the Rift-S, even if only in some areas, because it will mean things are moving forward with consumer hardware. I think that's what we all want, but I'm happy to wait to get my hands on it, whilst getting a smaller, but I'll wager still noticable improvement with the -S.

    I'm not trying to talk you out of a rift-s because I think it would be a fine purchase, but no one knows what the index specs are yet. The minimum specs that were posted up accidentally only showed a GTX 970 or RX 480. It's still uncertain still what tech is really in it and what will really be needed.
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,348 Valuable Player
    edited April 17
    pyroth309 said:
    I'm not trying to talk you out of a rift-s because I think it would be a fine purchase, but no one knows what the index specs are yet. The minimum specs that were posted up accidentally only showed a GTX 970 or RX 480. It's still uncertain still what tech is really in it and what will really be needed.
    That is what I try to tell some other people as well. The fact there must be something special going on because even the Vive Pro recommends a 1060 isnit it? Granted the 1060 is about the same performance as a 970 - there are some key software/hardware differences that still must be in place for them to be able to keep it that low while bumping the FOV as high as they are. Even if they kept the res as of the Vive Pro the same -  FOV is a lot harder on the performance than increasing PPD is because of the fact it will have to draw more objects on the side that don't get cull out of the scene as quickly. 
  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 3,809 Valuable Player
    edited April 18
    From a tech / geek perspective knuckles are fab
    From a user perspective having steamVR controllers which better relate to touch is amazing

    But in terms of extra functionality in games...... I really am not worried, if vive wands are 1% and knuckles are 100%

    My bet is touch would come in at 85% if that makes sense.
    (I am not saying wands are 1% as good as knuckles, just trying to demonstrate where my gut feeling is that touch will sit between the 2 devices in terms of how good they feel to use)
    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,328 Valuable Player
    edited April 18
    I wonder how many games or apps we have that truly support the use of individual fingers. Not just grabbing, but full Touch support. Mostly it seems that just the whole hand is supported - maybe due to (PSVR) compatibility. Popular games like Beat Saber,  Moss, Racket:Nx don't use any finger movements at all if I recall correctly. Even Vacation Simulator has very limited finger support (if any) - but you do have hands and movable fingers in that game. 

    Games really showing off the potential of Touch (and in theory Knuckles) may be:

    Wilson's Heart (so cool removing the electrodes from your forehead using thumb and index fingers).
    Lone Echo.
    Transference - to some degree.
    Arizona Sunshine - to some degree, can't remember if you need to use individual fingers like the index for button pressing in that game. 
    First contact (like extending the index finger to let a butterfly sit on it, or button pressing with one finger). 
    Windlands 2 - but very little finger support - it's mostly grabbing (whole hand, not use of individual fingers).
    Robo Recall - but it's only grabbing right? I don't recall having to use individual fingers in that game. 

    Main problem may be that you lose compatibility to other platforms if you design a game to require use of individual fingers. The problem with both Touch and Knuckles may still be that the tech is completely underused in today's VR apps. Don't get me wrong - I'd love to use Knuckles, but right now I keep dreaming about apps and games that fully exploit the potential of Touch. I want to pick up stuff using only my thumb and index fingers (and not use a dumb grab movement with the whole hand, which can be done even in PSVR) - do let me now if I've overlooked a lot of games where you need to use index and thumb finger movements through Touch. 

    Valve needs at least one awesome and exclusive game that requires elaborate finger movements to really sell Knuckles to me.

    BTW - the future may look cool (note that she's using the CV1, so we don't need to upgrade the next 10 years :D):

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • kojackkojack Posts: 5,235 Volunteer Moderator
    Flight sims would benefit from full finger control for cockpit interaction. But that would be much better done by Leap Motion, since you can't use a joystick/throttle while the Index controllers are strapped to your hands.

    (Anybody else think it's ironic that a controller with all fingers tracked is called the Index Controller?)  :)
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,348 Valuable Player
    edited April 18
    RuneSR2 said:
    I wonder how many games or apps we have that truly support the use of individual fingers. 
    I dont think its really a must have vs a nice have when changing a design from their wands to something like touch is for comfort and control. Touch idea of tracking the hands in a comfortable way was a MUST going forward in the future of VR. Games going forward to use it - I don't think will force it. It just will more animation if you have it vs a requirement. More or less - you don't have to use it if you don't want to - but it just will be there if you want to support it. Again, a nice to have vs a must have.

    For me, I can't see hand tracking (leap motion) taking off as a controller for your everyday games because of the limited input it provides, so for me it's not a must have. It's a nice to have where you don't want to use Touch controllers, for example in GO, in that you could select menus without worrying where your remote is making it a bit more clean cut in how it works.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,328 Valuable Player
    edited April 18
    Mradr said:
    RuneSR2 said:
    I wonder how many games or apps we have that truly support the use of individual fingers. 
    I dont think its really a must have vs a nice have when changing a design from their wands to something like touch is for comfort and control. Touch idea of tracking the hands in a comfortable way was a MUST going forward in the future of VR. 
    Agreed - I'd just love to see the tech better implemented. And I think it's sad that so few games "fully" support Touch. 

    That's why I usually let first timers try First Contact B) - nearly all find it utterly amazing. But sadly they won't find that level of Touch interaction implemented in many games or apps - currently. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,348 Valuable Player
    edited April 18
    RuneSR2 said:
    Agreed - I'd just love to see the tech better implemented. And I think it's sad that so few games "fully" support Touch. 

    That's why I usually let first timers try First Contact B) - nearly all find it utterly amazing. But sadly they won't find that level of Touch interaction implemented in many games or apps - currently. 
    LOL I still have the og xbox controller it came with. The way I used to show it off is I will play them play lucky's tail with that controller - then push them into Robo Recall with Touch and omg people went from 0 to 60 when you do that LOL. I think the same will happen for people using the Vive's wands. They will just be in another world. Wit h that said - we should see a push now for more hand integration going forward.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,591 Valuable Player
    I've been saying this since it was first announced that the Knuckles would track all fingers. We hardly ever use the ring and pinky fingers individually in real life. You could amputate those fingers and not really miss them in day to day use.

    My game is going to use the thumb to open doors with a thumb print and the index finger to flick switches, use a keypad and use in game computer terminals via a GUI, but that's because I'm developing a Rift exclusive game.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,348 Valuable Player
    edited April 18
    snowdog said:
    You could amputate those fingers and not really miss them in day to day use.
    I think I would notice and miss them x..x; LOL 
  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 4,468 Volunteer Moderator
    edited April 18
    I think finger tracking is less about game mechanics needing it, and more about improved hand presence and immersion (seeing your virtual hands doing what your real hands are doing).

    In my opinion, the best use of finger tracking is for social interactions—giving other players a thumbs-up, finger guns, flipping the bird, etc. Like the new expressive avatars that we just got from Oculus, fully animated player models make them feel more real and present. 
    i7 5820K @ 4.25 GHz | EVGA GTX 1080 SC | Gigabyte GA-X99-UD4 | Corsair DDR4 3000 32 GB | Corsair HX 750W
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  • inovatorinovator Posts: 1,813
    Project 2501
    Knuckles is very cool but it doesn't bother me if I don't get to use them in the future 
  • JD-UKJD-UK Posts: 2,289 Valuable Player
    pyroth309 said:
    JD-UK said:
    I won't buy this, even if it's the best one on the market, simply because I don't want to have to upgrade my PC yet again - and if I buy the Rift-S, which I intend doing, I can keep my current hardware and get the performance I require.

    I'll still be happy if the Index - or any other headset - turns out to be far better than the Rift-S, even if only in some areas, because it will mean things are moving forward with consumer hardware. I think that's what we all want, but I'm happy to wait to get my hands on it, whilst getting a smaller, but I'll wager still noticable improvement with the -S.

    I'm not trying to talk you out of a rift-s because I think it would be a fine purchase, but no one knows what the index specs are yet. The minimum specs that were posted up accidentally only showed a GTX 970 or RX 480. It's still uncertain still what tech is really in it and what will really be needed.
    If it turns out an upgrade wouldn't be required, I would have a look at Index - but another factor is playing my large library of many asyet untouched Oculus Home games without relying on a hack. Although I'm quite open to continuing using the Rift when I buy a new headset.




  • dburnedburne Posts: 2,313 Valuable Player
    JD-UK said:
    pyroth309 said:
    JD-UK said:
    I won't buy this, even if it's the best one on the market, simply because I don't want to have to upgrade my PC yet again - and if I buy the Rift-S, which I intend doing, I can keep my current hardware and get the performance I require.

    I'll still be happy if the Index - or any other headset - turns out to be far better than the Rift-S, even if only in some areas, because it will mean things are moving forward with consumer hardware. I think that's what we all want, but I'm happy to wait to get my hands on it, whilst getting a smaller, but I'll wager still noticable improvement with the -S.

    I'm not trying to talk you out of a rift-s because I think it would be a fine purchase, but no one knows what the index specs are yet. The minimum specs that were posted up accidentally only showed a GTX 970 or RX 480. It's still uncertain still what tech is really in it and what will really be needed.
    If it turns out an upgrade wouldn't be required, I would have a look at Index - but another factor is playing my large library of many asyet untouched Oculus Home games without relying on a hack. Although I'm quite open to continuing using the Rift when I buy a new headset.
    Yeah that makes sense - which is why I have completely stopped purchasing any Oculus software in the last few weeks, and won't till I see how things shake out.

    Don

    EVGA Z390 Dark MB | I9 9900k| EVGA 2080Ti FTW3 Ultra |32 GB G Skill 3200 cl14 ram | Warthog Throttle | VKB Gunfighter Pro/MCG Pro grip | Crosswind Pedals | EVGA DG 87 Case|
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 13,880 Valuable Player
    My pinky finger gets the most use when:
    • Playing Guitar
    • Drinking Tea


    Although I think that being able to use all fingers in VR Music Apps would be quite fantastic. The music VR Apps today don't really have the ability to take advantage of all fingers, which certainly removes any true musical talent from entering VR.

    If Valve is smart, they will do their best to fund all Apps that require Keyboard Typing and Music Entertainment. But all we've really heard is that the dev's for Call of the Starseed will try to use Knuckles in Episode 3. lawl
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,591 Valuable Player
    Valve won't fund anything. They're as tight as a gnat's chuff. GabeN loves his money too much I think.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 13,880 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:
    Valve won't fund anything. They're as tight as a gnat's chuff. GabeN loves his money too much I think.

    Yeah but Gabe's money is so tiny compared to Zuckerberg's.



    If Valve is finally entering the VR game with their own Hardware, then they need to start acting accordingly when it comes to Software.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 3,809 Valuable Player
    Zenbane said:
    My pinky finger gets the most use when:

    You are an invader..... I knew it @Zenbane
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHf1PxkVEAEUi1N.jpg

    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,591 Valuable Player
    Zenbane said:
    My pinky finger gets the most use when:

    You are an invader..... I knew it @Zenbane
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHf1PxkVEAEUi1N.jpg


    One of my favourite TV series. I rewatch it every few years. The music in particular was awesome.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • JD-UKJD-UK Posts: 2,289 Valuable Player
    edited April 18
    http://www.steamindex.com/

    parp! :D


    Edit: Just seen the screenie of the product page, and I quote "Base station and PC required" so I will probably not be interested. Assuming base station refers to tracking (lighthouse) and even if not exactly that, it suggests additional costs.




  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 4,468 Volunteer Moderator
    JD-UK said:
    http://www.steamindex.com/

    parp! :D


    Edit: Just seen the screenie of the product page, and I quote "Base station and PC required" so I will probably not be interested. Assuming base station refers to tracking (lighthouse) and even if not exactly that, it suggests additional costs.
    No no no... you want ValveIndex.com!
    i7 5820K @ 4.25 GHz | EVGA GTX 1080 SC | Gigabyte GA-X99-UD4 | Corsair DDR4 3000 32 GB | Corsair HX 750W
    Corsair Hydro H100i | Samsung SSDs: 860 Evo 1 TB, 850 Evo 1 TB, 840 Evo 1 TB | Seagate BarraCuda HDD 3 TB
  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,051
    Wintermute
    Only 13 days to go everyone until the big announcements, this waiting is really killing me! I'm like a big kid waiting for Christmas!!  :p
    UK: England - Leeds - - RTX 2080 - Make love, not war - See you in the Oasis!
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 1,813
    Project 2501
    Only 13 days to go everyone until the big announcements, this waiting is really killing me! I'm like a big kid waiting for Christmas!!  :p
    Sing to the tune of jingle bells: vr bells, vr bell, vr all the way, oh what fun it Will be, to hear all they will say, yay
  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,051
    Wintermute
    edited April 18
    inovator said:
    Only 13 days to go everyone until the big announcements, this waiting is really killing me! I'm like a big kid waiting for Christmas!!  :p
    Sing to the tune of jingle bells: vr bells, vr bell, vr all the way, oh what fun it Will be, to hear all they will say, yay

    Nice tune mate! haha

    Btw, what time will it be on the day we find out from Valve? First thing in the morning or like 12pm USA time?

    I think we're 6 hours behind here in the UK depending on what part of america Valve is based at. Are Valve in California? 

    I've got a countdown app on my phone and it currently says "12 days, 22 hours and 6 minutes" !!!  :p
    UK: England - Leeds - - RTX 2080 - Make love, not war - See you in the Oasis!
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