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Valve Index - Specifications released.

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  • vannagirlvannagirl Posts: 2,002 Valuable Player
    pyroth309 said:

    Easy fix, cut your response and delete the quote and press enter a few times in the box to make some blank lines. Click in the first line and then do quote again and you can move cursor out. Then just paste your comments back and then delete the extra lines. Yea forum sucks lol.  
    Whoa

    thank you  <3 I spend half my life stuck in quotes on post I never do because of this.

    it seems much worse on my phone
    Look, man. I only need to know one thing: where they are. 
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    vannagirl said:
    pyroth309 said:

    Easy fix, cut your response and delete the quote and press enter a few times in the box to make some blank lines. Click in the first line and then do quote again and you can move cursor out. Then just paste your comments back and then delete the extra lines. Yea forum sucks lol.  
    Whoa

    thank you  <3 I spend half my life stuck in quotes on post I never do because of this.

    it seems much worse on my phone
    It's worse on my phone too but the same trick works there too. 
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,535 Valuable Player
    edited April 27
    EEG just isn't ready for prime time - and no - Valve wont be using it. Its a stupid rumor XD At best right now - is that it can get training data in, but no customer is going to be willing to pay for you to have a feature no one will use. If anyone does find out about the hidden feature - you just asking for trouble along with it. Over all - it's a silly idea for right now. Maybe generation 4-5 might have it - but that is at least 10 more years down the road  for both cost and functional reasons. Instead of trying to hack the brain - I would think it be easier to hack the spinal cord reading the singles off that to know when to move vs trying to guess what you are thinking.

    If it does - oh boy - I agree with zen - wait for the sells numbers then:)

    The only three rumors that peak my entrust is:
    1) The lenses - does the Index naming mean it will have that dual lenses design? How well will it work for clearity - does it makes it work about the same as the XTel headset?
    2) Eye tracking - some pointed out some key elements that it might exist - is it type 1 - 2 - 3? (Type 1 being basic eye tracking - may or may not support FOVA, Type 2 support FOVA, Type 3 supporting focal point)
    3) What resolution are they really aiming for? Vive Pro - or more native but a way larger resolution screens?
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    Mradr said:
    EEG just isn't ready for prime time - and no - Valve wont be using it.
    I don't believe it either and was just entertaining the idea but who knows. I personally have zero interest in such a feature. If it is true, I really hope it doesn't inflate the cost much. Likewise, the lenses, the resolution and eye tracking are my main interests as well. 
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,701 Valuable Player
    edited April 27
    Mradr said:
    EEG just isn't ready for prime time - and no - Valve wont be using it. Its a stupid rumor XD At best right now - is that it can get training data in, but no customer is going to be willing to pay for you to have a feature no one will use. If anyone does find out about the hidden feature - you just asking for trouble along with it. Over all - it's a silly idea for right now. Maybe generation 4-5 might have it - but that is at least 10 more years down the road  for both cost and functional reasons. Instead of trying to hack the brain - I would think it be easier to hack the spinal cord reading the singles off that to know when to move vs trying to guess what you are thinking.

    If it does - oh boy - I agree with zen - wait for the sells numbers then:)

    The only three rumors that peak my entrust is:
    1) The lenses - does the Index naming mean it will have that dual lenses design? How well will it work for clearity - does it makes it work about the same as the XTel headset?
    2) Eye tracking - some pointed out some key elements that it might exist - is it type 1 - 2 - 3? (Type 1 being basic eye tracking - may or may not support FOVA, Type 2 support FOVA, Type 3 supporting focal point)
    3) What resolution are they really aiming for? Vive Pro - or more native but a way larger resolution screens?

    I'd also be very surprised to find any kind of brain scanning built into the Index (also many people may react negatively to some sort of "Big Brother is Brain-Scanning You Constantly" feature). My best guess is that we'll see some new kind of dual lenses design, wider fov, awesome audio, maybe (basic) tracking of feet (and Knuckles may be a small revolution too with full finger tracking) - and maybe some kind of (basic) eye tracking if we're lucky (but GTX 1070 as potentially recommended may work against any eye tracking assumption, indicating that Index will have high hardware requirements). The res in the HMD will be interesting too, I really have no idea what Valve will use (the rumor about "Vive Pro"-like res may be problematic when having such a large fov, then again new lenses design may work some wonders). I believe that costs are a great concern for Valve, which will limit their possibilities. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,146 Valuable Player
    edited April 28
    I have a 14 sensor emotiv epoc, I backed the Kickstarter.

    It can barely recognise eeg patterns let alone thoughts. It’s an entertaining gimmick at best at the moment.
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,087 Valuable Player
    Forget the scanning. I want them to surgically give us all implants. 
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,146 Valuable Player
    edited April 28
    Well that is one issue solved (IE the interference of all the electrical signals coming from the muscles around your face and the skull itself.) When using the device you have to keep your face as still as possible (when recording the thought). However even if the EEG was crystal clear they still have no idea how to interpret it. 

    I did use it for a while in RPG games. It was highly inaccurate and slow compared to pressing a button. i used it with spells. 

    So first I imagined a fireball forming in my hand, it has to be a strong clear thought you can reproduce. The headset needs training on that thought and it can take a long time. Even then its hit an miss, so would not recommend it for multiplayer games as you will be dead.

    However when it does work the process of imagining a fireball and one shooting from your hand is a pretty cool experience if not flaky most of the time.

    I wonder though with the availability of AI, the software could be greatly improved in detecting the desired patterns.



  • CrashFuCrashFu Posts: 1,756 Valuable Player
    Mradr said:
    no customer is going to be willing to pay for you to have a feature no one will use.
    Have you seen the knuckles controllers?   Apparently people will pay for pinky-and-ring-finger tracking, even when it means using a ginormous, awkward controller you have to strap your hands into to use  (that will almost certainly cost more than Touch controllers, because of the extra tech and materials)

    But I was mostly kidding before, anyways. I'd be surprised if they actually did build an EEG into the headset;  As an optional accessory for that expansion slot, maybe, but not as a standard feature.

    It made for a fun discussion, though. :tongue:
    It's hard being the voice of reason when you're surrounded by unreasonable people.
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,776 Valuable Player
    kojack said:
    ....
    The Oculus forum is running on Vanilla Forum. https://vanillaforums.com/en/
    They even use us as part of their showcase. : )



    Interesting - thanks for this. Just doing a little research into the package and I see your using v.2.2 - any chance to use v2.4 or v2.8 which has many of the features that would address the above criticisms?
    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
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  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,776 Valuable Player
    KlodsBrik said:
    I personally cant wait to get my hands on the Index controllers and try to do irl stuff while wearing them.
     Hardware will always fail if it´s hard to get on / off. Hard to setup ( sensors !? ).
    .....

    From all the developers that have been given Index Controllers (Knuckles) there have been rave reception - they were easy to install and worked very well - they will make a strong addition to the Valve Index VR bundle, and will also be strong incentives to be added to HTC Vive and Pimax 5K installations. As with most VR its another example of you need to try it to really understand what it offers. 
    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,087 Valuable Player
    I think the knuckles will be great. I'm not going to say they will be bad because I'm jelous I can't have them. But I'll still be very happy with the touch controls 
  • kojackkojack Posts: 5,601 Volunteer Moderator
    kevinw729 said:
    Interesting - thanks for this. Just doing a little research into the package and I see your using v.2.2 - any chance to use v2.4 or v2.8 which has many of the features that would address the above criticisms?
    If we're that far behind it definitely should be updated. Way above my pay-grade though. :)
    (Mods have no control over the forum itself, we can't even make new boards)
  • jabjab Posts: 207
    Nexus 6
    CrashFu said:
    Have you seen the knuckles controllers?   Apparently people will pay for pinky-and-ring-finger tracking, even when it means using a ginormous, awkward controller you have to strap your hands into to use  (that will almost certainly cost more than Touch controllers, because of the extra tech and materials)


    People have been dreaming about proper functional hand representation in VR since the early days. Building sweaty cumbersome glove systems that pretty much where the definition of impractical. And now when we finally have a practical solution to the problem, suddenly it's not needed any more? Stuff like this is why this forum some times get labeled as a fan boy site.

  • ParadoxAnomalyParadoxAnomaly Posts: 90
    Hiro Protagonist

  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,212 Volunteer Moderator
    jab said:
    People have been dreaming about proper functional hand representation in VR since the early days. Building sweaty cumbersome glove systems that pretty much where the definition of impractical. And now when we finally have a practical solution to the problem, suddenly it's not needed any more? Stuff like this is why this forum some times get labeled as a fan boy site.

    It'll only be apparent in a years time or so, weather the extra finger tracking is something that gets adopted for games generally, or whether it becomes the exception. Until then I think we're all entitled to opinions on that likelihood. I've never really gone for the fan-boy/troll argument when expressing agreeing or disagreeing with people... I'd rather argue on the points being made, unless of course a poster contributes nothing except baiting other users, then I'll call them out.

    Personally I'd rather not have the strap across the back of my hand unless it's something that'll get used a lot and I'm not sure it will. You'll only really need it when releasing a grip in VR whilst at the same time, you're not wanting to keep a firm grip on the controller for movement of the thumbstick or pressing of the other buttons, which is when you really need to keep a firm grip regardless of whether you want to release something... so that's why I think I'd prefer a grip button for its practical use.

    Proper hand representation I think will come with something entirely different, such as camera based finger/hand tracking and maybe eventually in addition to that, some sort of device that sends impulses to your hand's nerves to make you think you're getting physical feedback.

    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v1903 (18362.449)
  • kojackkojack Posts: 5,601 Volunteer Moderator
    P5 Glove.


    It had IR 6DOF tracking, no full enclosing glove and it didn't interfere with you grabbing objects.


  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,535 Valuable Player
    edited April 28
    CrashFu said:
    Mradr said:
    no customer is going to be willing to pay for you to have a feature no one will use.
    Have you seen the knuckles controllers?   Apparently people will pay for pinky-and-ring-finger tracking, even when it means using a ginormous, awkward controller you have to strap your hands into to use  (that will almost certainly cost more than Touch controllers, because of the extra tech and materials)
    That is a bit different - people are willing to pay for tracking close to what we have with the Rift Touch controllers. The same people assume having more things track and force grip is just extra icing the on the cake. More or less they are not paying for the pinky and ring finger they are paying for the tracking control that Knuck offers.

    EEG tracking would 1) very limited, 2) Add a bunch of extra cost, 3) not work for a near enough of people (in terms of users feeling like they are getting a benefit from it), 4) if they hide it in their headset - to get training data for later use - people will flip out/lots of backlash. etc etc
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,535 Valuable Player
    edited April 28
    RuneSR2 said:
    maybe some kind of (basic) eye tracking if we're lucky (but GTX 1070 as potentially recommended may work against any eye tracking assumption, indicating that Index will have high hardware requirements).
    In this case - having the requirement start with the 10s is/will be benefit eye tracking as that is what will support parts of VRS (variable rate shading). Granted the 20s is where everything is done in hardware. The 970 in this case would be the potentially work against eye tracking assumption. Then again, in some of the leak images you can see a lump and a box square where the cable and the IR light would be base off their patents. 
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,212 Volunteer Moderator
    kojack said:
    P5 Glove.


    It had IR 6DOF tracking, no full enclosing glove and it didn't interfere with you grabbing objects.


    that's not bad
    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v1903 (18362.449)
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,535 Valuable Player
    edited April 28
    nalex66 said:
    It’s great that SteamVR systems finally have a proper hand representation option, but I’m not sure I would trade Touch for Knuckles. I like the ease of use with Touch—I can pick them up and put them down without messing with a strap. The grip button leaves no question about your intention versus having to grip with the right force to activate the function. The Touch controllers are compact and comfortable, while the Knuckles are still rather large. The removable battery means that I can swap in a fresh one with no downtime for charging. The extra fingers are all well and good, but I’m not convinced that it’s game-changing. 
    Agree - You wont be missing much if you are using Oculus with Touch - the same can't be said with HTC and Wands XD For them - this is the major reason to buy it.

    Also - the tracking methods to track Touch is cheaper - so while the Knuckles start at 150 they might never go below 100 while the Touch controllers could be as low as 25 to 50$ for the pair, but the problem going from what I said - you have to have both tracking methods to make it work - so I think everyone will still have to choose at the end of the day - so everyone saying Knuckles is better - are the same people that don't have access to Touch in the fist place.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,108 Valuable Player
    jab said:
    People have been dreaming about proper functional hand representation in VR since the early days. Building sweaty cumbersome glove systems that pretty much where the definition of impractical. And now when we finally have a practical solution to the problem, suddenly it's not needed any more? Stuff like this is why this forum some times get labeled as a fan boy site.

    It'll only be apparent in a years time or so, weather the extra finger tracking is something that gets adopted for games generally, or whether it becomes the exception. Until then I think we're all entitled to opinions on that likelihood. I've never really gone for the fan-boy/troll argument when expressing agreeing or disagreeing with people... I'd rather argue on the points being made, unless of course a poster contributes nothing except baiting other users, then I'll call them out.

    Personally I'd rather not have the strap across the back of my hand unless it's something that'll get used a lot and I'm not sure it will. You'll only really need it when releasing a grip in VR whilst at the same time, you're not wanting to keep a firm grip on the controller for movement of the thumbstick or pressing of the other buttons, which is when you really need to keep a firm grip regardless of whether you want to release something... so that's why I think I'd prefer a grip button for its practical use.

    Proper hand representation I think will come with something entirely different, such as camera based finger/hand tracking and maybe eventually in addition to that, some sort of device that sends impulses to your hand's nerves to make you think you're getting physical feedback.


    I guarantee you right now that tracking for those extra fingers will be an exception for the following reasons:

    1) Unless a developer is developing a game exclusively for the Knuckles controllers they'll just code to cover the lowest common denominator - the WVR controllers.

    2) We rarely use those fingers individually in real life and there isn't a single tool in the world which functions differently depending on how much pressure you're gripping the thing with.

    Now you may have developers allowing players to wiggle their fingers as a gimmick but that's about it.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,535 Valuable Player
    edited April 28
    snowdog said:
    2) We rarely use those fingers individually in real life and there isn't a single tool in the world which functions differently depending on how much pressure you're gripping the thing with.
    I disagree a bit here. How you grip and hold a cat/living thing is very DIFFERENT than you hold a object or a rock. How that translates into a game - I am not sure. More or less it's just extra input - but something I am not sure if we need right now though. As for a tool/play item - there is the rubber ducky:) We do tend to grip screw drivers for better torque though.I'm sure you can come up with a few more examples. Honestly, though - I don't see the value in games.
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    Mradr said:
    snowdog said:
    2) We rarely use those fingers individually in real life and there isn't a single tool in the world which functions differently depending on how much pressure you're gripping the thing with.
    I disagree a bit here. How you grip and hold a cat/living thing is very DIFFERENT than you hold a object or a rock. How that translates into a game - I am not sure. More or less it's just extra input - but something I am not sure if we need right now though. As for a tool/play item - there is the rubber ducky:) 
    I see some uses for it but as mentioned, it would have to be coded for it on the software side and unless it's a Valve created/sponsered title, I can't see many utililzing it. The obvious area it would be useful is social games/VR chat type stuff. As far as the squeezing, all it really does to me is basically give you an extra grip button or two since you have different states of squeeze to map to. 
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