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Valve Index - Specifications released.

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  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,535 Valuable Player
    edited April 1
    RuneSR2 said:
    would probably be of little interest to me. I'd love to put down the scuba mask and significantly increase fov (if the PPD still is great). 

    PPD doesn't fix SDE though - so yes it will look better - but that doesn't mean SDE will look great. SDE has a number of factors - but the biggest being the pixels distant from each other. More sub pixels means a small pixel pitch and that translates to a better image along with the lenses and everything else that also needs to be taken into consideration.

    Edit - Please note - it really depends on the FOV you are getting so this really will depend per person face and how close they can get their eyes to the lenses.

    1080 / 100 = 10-12 per eye for CV1
    1280 / 100 = 11-13 per eye for RS (with it being a single display - I wonder if this value isn't lower and no IDP to adjust for different viewing might keep this the same as the CV1 or only a little better, aka why no one could see more detail than they did with the CV1)
    1440 / 100 = 13-15 per eye for Vive Pro
    1440 / 135 = 10-12 per eye for Index
    Update:
    2160 / 135 = 15-17 per eye for Index

    Human eye has around 60PPD and a monitor running at 1080p is 30PPD. I wonder if there isn't a better way to do the math for full RGB vs Pentile to include the extra sub pixels. I have a feeling if we did that - I bet we could get a better value of even for SDE short of actually getting the pixel pitch).

    SPPD?
    1080(x2) / 100 = 21.6 per eye for CV1
    1280(x3) / 100 = 38.4 per eye for RS
    1440(x3) / 135 = 32 per eye for Index
    Update
    2160(x3) / 135 = 48 per eye for Index
  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 4,074 Valuable Player
    Mradr said:
    Mradr said:
    RuneSR2 said:

    Seems like most believe in 135 fov - but 150 would be amazing. Then I'd be forced to start modding Skyrim!  :D
    150 would be too much and just another Pimax honestly unless they have eye tracking. 135 is kind of the cap or edge of what current GPUs will be able to handle in terms of 10s, 20s, and 30s cards. Anything higher than you really do run the risk no one ever buying it other than the top 1%.
    I might have to take this back as it might be a possible thing they want to do o.o; I have a hard time understanding the reasoning though if they do - higher FOV is a REALLY big hug of resources as the eye wont be able to really capture all that information in a meaningful way all the time (yes, I understand you can move your eyes - but as soon as you do - you create another spot that doesn't need to be render in full detail again). 

    Upload VR’s David Heaney claims that his sources say that the headset will have the same resolution of Vive Pro (2880×1600) and 135° FOV. Valve News Network says that the resolution will be bigger than Vive Pro and that FOV will be 150°. Anyway, redditor D3Pixel spotted that the Analogix 7530 chip that is on the PCB can only support at maximum the resolution of the Vive Pro, so I believe more to Upload VR’s hypothesis.
    UPDATE: the last sentence has been proved wrong: redditor Otto_Sump commented it this way:
    Making this lower PPD than the Vive pro/Odyssey or Pimax 5K+ makes little sense as it would be in direct competition with them (some people like FOV, some resolution).
    Besides, the ANX7530 is the same chip as used in the Pimax 5K+ and I believe that D3pixel has already been corrected on this in the Pimax forums.
    I’d hope that this was higher resolution, I’d buy one if it was.
    If this is true, this means that since the same screen will be used to have a bigger field of view, the overall PPD will be lower and so the “perceived resolution” will be worse than the Vive Pro. Probably Valve knows that a big FOV is one of the features that VR users ask the most because it creates a more immersive VR and so they are sacrificing PPD.


    Imo a vive pro resolution but with 135FOV will be just fine and the perfect comprise.for.current highish end pc setups. ***So long as the lens quality is up there*** the rift s is lower resolution to vivepro but looks comparable apparently due to superior lenses, so I can definitely imagine a vivepro resolution with higher fov also looking on a par if the lenses are up to snuff.
    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,706 Valuable Player
    Bit strange it's coming out in May and we don't know anything about it? When do you reckon we'll hear more about this Valve Headset? It's going to be either this or the Rift -S for me on launch day depending on the pro's & cons.
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,093 Valuable Player
    I'm surprised they don't announce the specs now to cut into the rift s sales. Unless it's more rifts like than we think.
  • KlodsBrikKlodsBrik Posts: 1,197
    Wintermute
    They will release them april 1st as i already mentioned .. lol
    Be good, die great !
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,714 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:
    Bit strange it's coming out in May and we don't know anything about it? When do you reckon we'll hear more about this Valve Headset? It's going to be either this or the Rift -S for me on launch day depending on the pro's & cons.
     There could be some truth to this:

    "Some are saying that May is not referring to the full reveal, but the release window"
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:
    Bit strange it's coming out in May and we don't know anything about it? When do you reckon we'll hear more about this Valve Headset? It's going to be either this or the Rift -S for me on launch day depending on the pro's & cons.
    Yea that's part of why I think it's a rush job. They're striking while the iron is hot so to speak. If the resolution is only as big as the Vive Pro then it's already late to the party considering it's also outside in. Hope they spill the beans soon.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,217 Volunteer Moderator
    edited March 30
    RuneSR2 said:
    RedRizla said:
    Bit strange it's coming out in May and we don't know anything about it? When do you reckon we'll hear more about this Valve Headset? It's going to be either this or the Rift -S for me on launch day depending on the pro's & cons.
     There could be some truth to this:

    "Some are saying that May is not referring to the full reveal, but the release window"
    But that would mean it's all about delaying people from deciding to buy a Rift-S or Reverb without having their headset ready.
    Surely they wouldn't be playing those kind of games would they?
    :o
    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v1903 (18362.449)
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,093 Valuable Player
    I may just order the quest and hold off on the s until I see exactly what valve has cooking plus reviews. 135 fov and reverb visuals could reverse my decision quick with good reviews.
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,535 Valuable Player
    inovator said:
    I may just order the quest and hold off on the s until I see exactly what valve has cooking plus reviews. 135 fov and reverb visuals could reverse my decision quick with good reviews.
    I am already plan and setup to get the Quest for now, but I am now thinking about getting a Rift S and Index to test out at the same time. Much like I did with the Vive and CV1 to see witch one I like best. The Reveb out only because of the limited controller tracking for now - but that resolution and PPD would be pretty amazing.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,217 Volunteer Moderator
    Same @inovator , I think we know enough about the Quest to go ahead with that as our stand-alone option.
    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v1903 (18362.449)
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,535 Valuable Player
    I do not think it is Valve who have rushed the release or stole any thunder, it was Oculus who had to accelerate it's plans as it got wind to Valves imminent launch. Imagine Valve launching something like the above without even the Rift S on the table.

    My god 135 FOV. If that is true and the headset turns on, I'm buying it.
    Its possible xD I mean the Rift S did just like appear out of no where. I mean yea they needed a CV1 replacement - but it does seems a bit weird to release this now instead of around OC.
  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,777 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    What may early Index adopters be able to play on Steam - of great new titles coming out later this year - thus removing all Rift exclusives from the equation. I'm probably forgetting several titles, but if Index is superior to Rift-S, these would probably be the most interesting AA(A) Steam games - to me:

    1. Dead Citadel:


    Wow, Undead Citadel looks fantastic! This is going to be one hell of a year for VR.
    i7 6700k 2080ti   Rift-S, Index
  • edmgedmg Posts: 1,152
    Wintermute
    Unless Valve subsidize this headset, I'm guessing it will cost a lot more than the Rift. So they'll take the high-end of the market, while Oculus eat up the middle with the Quest and Rift-S.

    It's HTC who are really screwed. They have no real technology of their own, so no way to compete with the company that produced their technology.

    As for whether I'll buy one, not this year since I'm waiting to build a new PC first, but maybe next year if there's no Rift 2 by then.
  • ChivasChivas Posts: 205
    Nexus 6
    After Oculus dashed my hopes with the Rift S,  I now have VR headset with an adjustable IPD to look forward too.   Valve has always developed decent products, but Oculus developed better hardware until now.  I understand there are always trade-offs,  but Oculus really dropped the ball with their software IPD adjustment considering the relatively small sweetspot of VR lenses.   
  • ShineHunterShineHunter Posts: 26
    Brain Burst
    Chivas said:
    After Oculus dashed my hopes with the Rift S,  I now have VR headset with an adjustable IPD to look forward too.   Valve has always developed decent products, but Oculus developed better hardware until now.  I understand there are always trade-offs,  but Oculus really dropped the ball with their software IPD adjustment considering the relatively small sweetspot of VR lenses.   
    Couldn't agree more except Valve has always developed decent products. 
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,109 Valuable Player
    edmg said:
    Unless Valve subsidize this headset, I'm guessing it will cost a lot more than the Rift. So they'll take the high-end of the market, while Oculus eat up the middle with the Quest and Rift-S.

    It's HTC who are really screwed. They have no real technology of their own, so no way to compete with the company that produced their technology.

    As for whether I'll buy one, not this year since I'm waiting to build a new PC first, but maybe next year if there's no Rift 2 by then.

    This is why HTC are abandoning Lighthouse tracking with their new and upcoming HTC Vive Cosmos headset and switching to 4 camera inside out tracking. They're also switching to LCD displays so it's going to be cheaper for them to produce. We don't know the specs of the Cosmos but because they're not forking out a licence fee to Valve every time they sell a headset and because they're using LCDs it should be competitively priced compared to other PC VR inside out tracked headsets. A safe bet would be 600 quid/dollars I think as long as they don't go crazy with the resolution or FOV.

    It's going to have worse tracking than the Rift S though and it remains to be seen whether they've implemented finger tracking so the Rift S may have an advantage there too despite their controllers being Touch controller clones.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,714 Valuable Player
    Mradr said:
    I do not think it is Valve who have rushed the release or stole any thunder, it was Oculus who had to accelerate it's plans as it got wind to Valves imminent launch. Imagine Valve launching something like the above without even the Rift S on the table.
    Its possible xD I mean the Rift S did just like appear out of no where. I mean yea they needed a CV1 replacement - but it does seems a bit weird to release this now instead of around OC.

    I've been having similar thoughts - but probably we'll never know. Personally I think it's confusing for customers having Rift-S and Quest launching almost at the same time - adding to the theory that Oculus may have accelerated the Rift-S launch. Normally Oculus uses OC to announce new and upcoming products (regarding both Go and Quest).  
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,109 Valuable Player
    Chivas said:
    After Oculus dashed my hopes with the Rift S,  I now have VR headset with an adjustable IPD to look forward too.   Valve has always developed decent products, but Oculus developed better hardware until now.  I understand there are always trade-offs,  but Oculus really dropped the ball with their software IPD adjustment considering the relatively small sweetspot of VR lenses.   

    The Rift S lenses have quite a large sweet spot apparently and the adjustable range of IPD available is from 58mm-72mm which covers something like 95% of the population. Someone from either UploadVR or Road To VR tried the Rift S with an IPD of 72mm and didn't experience any problems.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,093 Valuable Player
    It's confusing for sure until it all hits the fan

  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,217 Volunteer Moderator
    Yep, if your IPD falls outside those values then you've got every right to complain, I don't see a big problem otherwise. Seems to be something that more people are citing as a problem than would have a probkem with it irl.
    If Oculus take advantage of software IPD they'd do well to introduce user profiles with automatic IPD changes for each member of the family for example, just an idea.

    Also, I wonder if @Wildt may favour software IPD after his Rift failed when adjusting his. Just one less thing to go wrong.
    Have you had a response from support?
    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v1903 (18362.449)
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,093 Valuable Player
    Does anyone know how well other headsets with revive play rift games?
  • KlodsBrikKlodsBrik Posts: 1,197
    Wintermute


    Be good, die great !
  • KlodsBrikKlodsBrik Posts: 1,197
    Wintermute
    inovator said:
    Does anyone know how well other headsets with revive play rift games?
    Just as well as Rift with SteamVR.
    Be good, die great !
  • CrashFuCrashFu Posts: 1,756 Valuable Player
    Yep, if your IPD falls outside those values then you've got every right to complain, I don't see a big problem otherwise. Seems to be something that more people are citing as a problem than would have a probkem with it irl.
    If Oculus take advantage of software IPD they'd do well to introduce user profiles with automatic IPD changes for each member of the family for example, just an idea.

    Also, I wonder if @Wildt may favour software IPD after his Rift failed when adjusting his. Just one less thing to go wrong.
    Have you had a response from support?
    Ooh, automatic per-profile IPD adjustment?  Hadn't even thought of that..

    I have been thinking about other possible benefits of SIPDA, however. For example, vertical adjustment and per-eye adjustment.    Not everyone has perfect facial symmetry, right?  But mechanical IPD adjustment can only move the screens farther apart or closer together, and it has to move both simultaneously, and by the same degree.  SIPDA could theoretically move either, in any direction, independently.

    So why exactly did people just start assuming that SIPDA would be an inherent downgrade to MIPDA?
    It's hard being the voice of reason when you're surrounded by unreasonable people.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,217 Volunteer Moderator
    edited March 30
    CrashFu said:
    Yep, if your IPD falls outside those values then you've got every right to complain, I don't see a big problem otherwise. Seems to be something that more people are citing as a problem than would have a probkem with it irl.
    If Oculus take advantage of software IPD they'd do well to introduce user profiles with automatic IPD changes for each member of the family for example, just an idea.

    Also, I wonder if @Wildt may favour software IPD after his Rift failed when adjusting his. Just one less thing to go wrong.
    Have you had a response from support?
    Ooh, automatic per-profile IPD adjustment?  Hadn't even thought of that..

    I have been thinking about other possible benefits of SIPDA, however. For example, vertical adjustment and per-eye adjustment.    Not everyone has perfect facial symmetry, right?  But mechanical IPD adjustment can only move the screens farther apart or closer together, and it has to move both simultaneously, and by the same degree.  SIPDA could theoretically move either, in any direction, independently.

    So why exactly did people just start assuming that SIPDA would be an inherent downgrade to MIPDA?
    Change is a worrying thing.

    Also, wonder how far away they are from having a simple sensor to measure your IPD accurately and adjust it automatically. No need even for profiles at that point and less chance of eye strain if you haven't set it correctly*.

    * © DnD Developments Inc.

    Edit: I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't part & parcel of any future headset that incorporates eye-tracking, seems to me to be a likely prerequisite.
    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v1903 (18362.449)
  • KlodsBrikKlodsBrik Posts: 1,197
    Wintermute
    Interesting read on Valve patents:

    Valve patents: speculation about the Index HMD

    Hi all!

    We're all stoked to see the upcoming Index HMD. A few days ago I was digging around in Valve patents (that have been published after the Vive came out), and I think there are some nice tidbits in those that may indicate some of the features coming in the Valve Index.

    In chronological order of published date (all are links to the patent PDFs):


    1 - Mar. 23, 2017 - PLAYER BIOFEEDBACK FOR DYNAMICALLY CONTROLLING A VIDEO GAME STATE

    This has been talked about a lot before, and isn't really VR specific. VNN has a video on brain interfacing recently. A VR HMD is already something you put on your head, so it's not that out-there to think that some future HMD may have sensors that can figure out your current emotional state and adjust the game based on that.

    This is starting off slightly off-topic here, but I just want to put out some links here. Mary Lou Jepsen worked at Facebook/Oculus for about a year back in 2015-2016 and has worked on lots of interesting display technology before. She went straight from Facebook to start up OpenWater that develops technology that can enable MRI-like brain imaging from just infrared light, but with far superior resolution, and in a form factor that would fit a headband. See her TED talk about it here. GabeN has said (and VNN quotes) that "[computer-brain-interfaces] are a lot further along than most people anticipate". Maybe this is it? I wonder if that's an addon that comes later, and is what the expansion port thing on the front is for. Also, look at this patent (not by Valve, though).


    2 - Nov. 28, 2017 - DISPLAY WITH STACKED EMISSION AND CONTROL LOGIC LAYERS

    Some interesting part from the patent on what this means in practice (emphasis mine):

    Corresponding advantages of silicon electron mobility and processing for display fabrication allows a clear and immediate pathway to retinal near eye displays (e.g., dimensions of 10,000x10,000 or more), high dynamic range, greatly improved fill factor, and brightness (e.g., 10,000 cd/m2 or more). In addition, with respect to production of a display panel, significant improvements in pixel density for significantly larger sizes of display panel may be achieved at significantly lower costs (e.g., $50 or less). In addition, the described techniques may provide a variety of benefits with respect to the use of such a display panel, including to provide one or more of the following: increased bandwidth in communication of video signals to the display panel, photorealistic immersive visual experience [...].


    3 - Feb. 8, 2018 - MITIGATION OF SCREEN DOOR EFFECT IN HEAD - MOUNTED DISPLAYS

    This is pretty straight-forward. This one is talking about using a microlens display in between the lens and the users eye in order to reduce the screen door effect. As far as I understand it, it's like having an array of tiny magnifying glasses so that you'll see more of the pixels and less of the space in between the pixels. It differs from the diffusion filter used in the Odyssey+, as that was placed between the panels and the lens, not between the lens and your eyes (as this patent is about). It probably also wouldn't reduce the sharpness of the display, as I understand it.


    4 - Feb. 22, 2018 - SYSTEMS AND METHODS FOR DETECTION AND / OR CORRECTION OF PIXEL LUMINOSITY AND / OR CHROMINANCE RESPONSE VARIATION IN DISPLAYS

    This is something to use in the production process in order to reduce visual artifacts that vary between individual displays and from pixel to pixel. By having the GPU (or an on-board chip) modify the video signal to reverse the artifacts for the given display, it works kind-of like noise cancellation, but for brightness and color "noise" in the display, thus reducing mura.

    Interesting side note about putting this workload in the GPU or on an on-board chip (again, emphasis mine):

    In certain HMD - related embodiments, mura correction processing in accordance with aspects of the present invention is performed host - side on the graphics processing unit ("GPU"). However, depending on the requirements of each particular implementation, such processing may be effected in silicon, in the headset itself, on a tether, or in the display panel electronics, for example. Such alternative implementations may provide greater image compressibility, which is important in situations involving limited link bandwidths (e.g., wireless systems).

    Although it shouldn't come as a surprise that Valve has at least toyed with the thought of a wireless system.


    5 - Mar. 22, 2018 - OPTICAL SYSTEM FOR HEAD - MOUNTED DISPLAY SYSTEM

    This one was a bit hard for me to understand. It talks about using double layer fresnel lenses in an HMD in a way that provides multiple "fields" (e.g., small FOV angles, large FOV angles), and allows for seamless transitions when looking between these zones. Figure 3 is of particular interest, I think, as it indicates how this can be used to create an HMD with a massively larger FOV than one could with only one fresnel layer.


    6 - May 3, 2018 - USING PUPIL LOCATION TO CORRECT OPTICAL LENS DISTORTION

    This thing describes itself. Using eye tracking to correct for optical distortions. The XTAL HMD already has automatic IPD adjustment based on their eye tracking, but this is going beyond that by configuring optimal lens distortion mapping based on where your pupils are in three dimensional space in front of the lenses.


    All in all, very much to be exited about. All of this leads me to believe that Valve has made the most graphically stunning VR HMD to date. It might not have eye tracking or wireless (yet?), but I do think it will at least have substantially reduced screen door effect and higher FOV. What do you think?


    Be good, die great !
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,217 Volunteer Moderator

    Damn, my idea is a little too late, better late than never and definitely better than too soon.

    ask my ex

    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v1903 (18362.449)
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