Valve Index - Specifications released. - Page 45 — Oculus
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Valve Index - Specifications released.

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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,573 Valuable Player
    edited May 26
    kevinw729 said:

    Where many see Foveated Rendering and eye tracking as part of next-gen VR, a lot for us are also focused on detailed finger tracking and better tactility. 

    Fully agree - using high levels of super sampling I really don't have a lot of problems with image quality even in the now low-res CV1 HMD, it generally looks awesome. 

    But the amount of titles where you can use truly your fingers and hands - games or apps that fully support and use Touch - are extremely low. Wilson's Heart and Lone Echo are nice examples, but most VR games can easily be played using WMR or even PSVR controllers. 

    Improve tactility is key to increase immersion - and look how many motor neurons are dedicated to our hands - it's massive - this figure shows how many motor neurons are associated to different body parts (="motor homunculus", the bigger the part the more neurons are associated in our brains):

    Image result for motor homunculus

    Or like this - if it's easier to comprehend:

    Image result for motor homunculus
    Who cares about legs, it's all about hands B) Of course Knuckles isn't perfect, but it does look interesting regarding full finger tracking and pressure (grip force) sensitivity:



    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,500 Valuable Player
    edited May 26
    RuneSR2 said:
    ....
    Fully agree - using high levels of super sampling I really don't have a lot of problems with image quality even in the now low-res CV1 HMD, it generally looks awesome. 
    ....

    Fully agree, I have used that image in the past to show the scale of our senses dominance. 

    Was at the VAC event and they had the latest Tactile Reality interface, and some really nice haptic weapon interfaces. But it is the haptic vests that had a number of people looking with interest. Our sector seems more preoccupied in this because of the price point. Also the UltraHaptics system was incredible - serious commercial and consumer opportunity. 
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    ** New Book **
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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,000 Valuable Player
    edited May 26
    Funny I thought my wedding tackle would take up a lot more of my brain. :)
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,500 Valuable Player
    Funny I thought my wedding tackle would take up a lot more of my brain. :)

    This is from 1970 - this is the clean version!

    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,103 Valuable Player
    edited May 26
    RuneSR2 said:
     Knuckles isn't perfect, but it does look interesting regarding full finger tracking

    For those of us who have been on the forum since at least 2016, the Knuckles have simply "looked interesting" for many years. But not much beyond "looking" since, as I post this now, they still have not yet officially released.

    I do not find much value in them due to their bulk design. Having all fingers in VR will have some beneficial use cases, but I do not want to sacrifice comfort, style, and practicality just for 2 extra fingers that have nominal use in VR Software up to this point.

    When the VR Software finally starts to implement all 10 fingers... we'll have these to look forward to:



    This is far superior to Knuckles in every conceivable way. The user can play a real guitar and get full tracking! Instead of being forced to squeeze one bulky girthy shaft as the only simulation object to represent "all things," we will have Gloves which gives us total freedom to interact with a nearly infinite amount of real-world objects that truly simulate their VR Counterpart. The Knuckles do not have this ability.

    I mean think about it... if you're holding a piece of paper in VR using all 5 fingers yet in real-life your hands are gripped around a bulky shaft, isn't it fair to say that the simulation took a shit?

    Compared to using VR Gloves to grab a real piece of paper?
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  • Hiro_Protag0nistHiro_Protag0nist Posts: 4,790 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    Meanwhile in the index thread



    The press is working hard just now ;) Here's a photo from Game Informer: 


    He's just trying to locate the Rift which looks like it's just over to the left of him in the box.
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,500 Valuable Player
    edited May 26
    Hiro_Protag0nist said:
    .....
    He's just trying to locate the Rift which looks like it's just over to the left of him in the box.

    Too me it just looks like the expression when you see the hundredth Oculus Quest box picture on FB!
    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,741 Valuable Player
    I love it when @Zenbane says bulky shaft.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • ParadoxAnomalyParadoxAnomaly Posts: 90
    Hiro Protagonist
    The only chance in life Zenbane gets to say ‘bulky shaft’ is in the Index thread. 
  • Hiro_Protag0nistHiro_Protag0nist Posts: 4,790 Valuable Player
    edited May 26
    Zenbane said:
    The only chance in life Zenbane gets to say ‘bulky shaft’ is in the Index thread. 

    That's not what you said last night, sugar! ;)

    He used to say it every day, straight after putting a Vive on and picking up the controllers.

    "Damn these bulky shafts!"
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,103 Valuable Player
    edited May 26
    Zenbane said:
    The only chance in life Zenbane gets to say ‘bulky shaft’ is in the Index thread. 

    That's not what you said last night, sugar! ;)

    He used to say it every day, straight after putting a Vive on and picking up the controllers.

    "Damn these bulky shafts!"

    Atmos ParadoxAnomaly gets really mad when someone criticizes the chance to hold two bulky shafts at once. Referring to his long history of heatedly advocating for Vive Wands and Valve Knuckles, of course!
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  • Hiro_Protag0nistHiro_Protag0nist Posts: 4,790 Valuable Player
    Zenbane said:
    Zenbane said:
    The only chance in life Zenbane gets to say ‘bulky shaft’ is in the Index thread. 

    That's not what you said last night, sugar! ;)

    He used to say it every day, straight after putting a Vive on and picking up the controllers.

    "Damn these bulky shafts!"

    Atmos ParadoxAnomaly gets really mad when someone criticizes the chance to hold two bulky shafts at once.


  • ParadoxAnomalyParadoxAnomaly Posts: 90
    Hiro Protagonist
    Zenbane said:
    Zenbane said:
    The only chance in life Zenbane gets to say ‘bulky shaft’ is in the Index thread. 

    That's not what you said last night, sugar! ;)

    He used to say it every day, straight after putting a Vive on and picking up the controllers.

    "Damn these bulky shafts!"

    Atmos ParadoxAnomaly gets really mad when someone criticizes the chance to hold two bulky shafts at once. Referring to his long history of heatedly advocating for Vive Wands and Valve Knuckles, of course!

  • ParadoxAnomalyParadoxAnomaly Posts: 90
    Hiro Protagonist
    edited May 26
    Zenbane said:
    The only chance in life Zenbane gets to say ‘bulky shaft’ is in the Index thread. 

    That's not what you said last night, sugar! ;)

  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,573 Valuable Player
    edited May 26
    Holding a bulky shaft like Knuckles may not be that bad, like this:


    I'm thinking that especially for sword games it may be an awesome solution - like  ;)


    - and B)


    Fully tracked finger gloves or the like look awesome too - I'm just wondering how it will feel to use a gun or sword if we're not holding anything in our hands, maybe we do need to hold something with buttons... My main immersion-breaking problem in Doom VFR was mostly the lack of weight. The largest guns don't have any weight - but I already thought of a solution: we need magnetic bracelets and to stand on a magnetic plate where you can increase the magnetic field strength and thereby the pull force. Now I just need to find funding for that project  :D 
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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,103 Valuable Player
    edited May 26
    RuneSR2 said:
    Holding a bulky shaft like Knuckles may not be that bad, like this:


    That's not a counter to the capabilities that are showcased in the VR Gloves video. All you did was post pictures of bulky items in hands. But there's more to life then just grabbing bulky things lol






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  • inovatorinovator Posts: 1,850
    Project 2501
    inovator said:
    vannagirl said:
    Is there a reason it’s so big

    the knuckles controller I mean  :|
    Maybe the size had to do with the developer wanting to make up for a personal inadequacy.
    Way back towards 2016 when this all began I complained that the onward community was to intolerant to newbies. U suggested to me pevlov and it was great. You were very nice.
    If you have the rift s and have played it recently? I have and that is the only time the dreaded black screen happens to me. Nothing else triggers it so I think it's just a game issue. Have you played it recently?
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,573 Valuable Player
    edited May 26
    Yes, full finger (glove) tracking would be awesome, looking forward to try it someday. 

    Did just see the full video from Tested again, they also shortly talk about Knuckles vs. 10 finger (glove - Leap Motion) tracking. I do like that he (Norm) clearly was able to perceive the 120 and even 144 Hz and that it greatly enhanced immersion - and the fov was noticeable improved. Also that Beat Saber runs at 120 Hz even using a GTX 980 with no problems (and it should, probably also 144 Hz). Sound and comfort seemed awesome too (Norm said that these aren't normal headphones but more like real speakers placed close to your ears - if that makes sense...hmmm ;-). And especially that he for the first time truly felt like being in an IMAX theater using Big Screen, mostly due to the res and fov:


    Again, not sure if these impressions can be trusted, but if Valve can deliver, it looks promising - even if the blacks are like the Rift-S due to LCD (which Norm kinda said they were), but that's why I'm keeping my beloved CV1 - and I'm not sure Knuckles will feel better than Touch, but I'd like to try Knuckles. Let's see some reviews from both users and experts first though. 
    According to Tested Valve has promised to deliver one major VR title this year - and according to Norm that title will support even the Rift, seems like a nice gesture from Valve. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,000 Valuable Player
    Is it confirmed NDA runs out Wednesday?
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,500 Valuable Player
    Is it confirmed NDA runs out Wednesday?

    Not all NDA's are the same - info about the system will be revealed, but there are other aspects that will not be cleared till the June presentation. 
    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,549 Valuable Player
    edited May 26
    I'm actually hoping knuckles are big enough for my big meat hooks. But I'm near 6'5 and have large hands.

    One of the benefits of knuckles being large is the tracking will be rock solid. A lot of sensors on it.

    For me to get into gloves and such for VR they would have to have some kind of haptic or resistance. Having something to grab adds a lot to immersion. The other option of course is trackable objects that you'd use with the gloves like a pistol grip or sword hilt. 
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,103 Valuable Player
    edited May 26

    pyroth309 said:
    For me to get into gloves and such for VR they would have to have some kind of haptic or resistance.
    I prefer haptics off. It has always seemed rather unrealistic and silly to me. When I grab an object in real life, it doesn't actually vibrate! lol

    Having something to grab adds a lot to immersion.

    If you're grabbing a piece of paper in VR but your real-life hands are squeezing an oversized shaft, then you're not actually mirroring the simulation.


    The other option of course is trackable objects that you'd use with the gloves like a pistol grip or sword hilt.

    Yes, a good option for those who need the one-to-one relationship. And this is an option that Gloves have but Wands do not.


    One of the benefits of knuckles being large is the tracking will be rock solid. A lot of sensors on it.

    That's not really a thing. The goal of technology is to get smaller and more efficient, not larger. We don't need huge objects just to get rock solid tracking. Nor do large objects guarantee rock solid tracking.

    That's like saying that we need larger cell phones to get better reception!


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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,549 Valuable Player
    edited May 26
    Zenbane said:
    One of the benefits of knuckles being large is the tracking will be rock solid. A lot of sensors on it.

    That's not really a thing. The goal of technology is to get smaller and more efficient, not larger. We don't need huge objects just to get rock solid tracking. Nor do large objects guarantee rock solid tracking.

    That's like saying that we need larger cell phones to get better reception!

    I understand that. At the same time, the fact that they are large to accommodate everyone's hand size has the added benefit of more real estate for sensors and less likely to get completely occluded.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,103 Valuable Player
    edited May 26
    pyroth309 said:
    I understand that. At the same time, the fact that they are large to accommodate everyone's hand size has the added benefit of more real estate for sensors and less likely to get completely occluded.

    Occlusion is just one of many aspects of tracking accuracy.

    I remember all these types of "arguments" when they were first presented back in 2017. You know... back when everyone thought Knuckles were the greatest thing since slice bread. Even though they weren't actually released yet. And still aren't.

    I think it's great that VR enthusiasts are willing to have such a strong outlook on certain products... but I swear, it's as if the moment someone decides to buy a non-Oculus VR product, Valve next-day-delivers a Handbook on: "How to argue on the Oculus Forums."

    Because the moment someone orders a non-Oculus product, all their posts sound the same. lol
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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,549 Valuable Player
    Zenbane said:
    pyroth309 said:
    I understand that. At the same time, the fact that they are large to accommodate everyone's hand size has the added benefit of more real estate for sensors and less likely to get completely occluded.

    Occlusion is just one of many aspects of tracking accuracy.

    I remember all these types of "arguments" when they were first presented back in 2017. You know... back when everyone thought Knuckles were the greatest thing since slice bread. Even though they weren't actually released yet. And still aren't.

    I think it's great that VR enthusiasts are willing to have such a strong outlook on certain products... but I swear, it's as if the moment someone decides to buy a non-Oculus VR product, Valve next-day-delivers a Handbook on: "How to argue on the Oculus Forums."

    Because the moment someone orders a non-Oculus product, all their posts sound the same. lol
    Well I didn't partake in all of that lol. I wasn't interested in knuckles at all until Rift-S was announced and I decided it wasn't the headset for me then I started looking into them. I have no ulterior motives, I'm just sharing my thoughts with the info in this thread. Obviously noone really knows what they're capable of until users get them. 
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