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Will inside out tracking be the future for all VR headsets?

RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 5,522 Valuable Player
edited April 8 in General
I really don't know if I should buy a Valve Index or Rift -S this time around. This is mainly down to not knowing which tracking method is going to be the future of VR. I see that Valve index is going to use base stations, but is that something Valve is going to continue with in the future, or do you think they will eventually turn to inside out tracking too?

I suspect Rift 2 will use inside out tracking, but do you think they could revert back to using outside in tracking once Rift 2 arrives? If inside out tracking is the future then I might as well get a Rift -S. I say this because Oculus will have a head start over Valve and a much better understanding of inside out tracking if that is the future of VR.
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Comments

  • saami81saami81 Posts: 57
    Hiro Protagonist
    I think that both of them are going to be viable in future too.
    Personally i want and need inside-out tracking because i dont live alone. Kids, dogs and cats can move my rift sensors accidentaly.

  • LuluViBritanniaLuluViBritannia Posts: 441
    Trinity
    I think the type of tracking is just part of the design and should not even be considered from a consumer point of view. As long as it works, it works. Its being outside-in or inside-out has nothing to do with it.

    So don't base your choice on the type of tracking, but on the fact that it works or not. In practice, inside-out tracking still has to prove itself, while outside-in has proven itself cumbersome. First buyers and media will be the ones to listen to about the tracking quality of the new devices. Then, only experience will tell what was the right choice.

    Now that was my consumer self talking ^^. My engineer self would rather tell you that both systems are actually complementary. Inside-out tracking is essential for ease of use, whereas outside-in tracking is essential to cover the situations that inside-out can't on its own.
    So in the future, VR industry should consider merging both systems and make an inside-out tracking that can be backed up with external sensors.
    But of course they won't, as it would have a cost. If they do make a choice, they will clearly choose inside-out as it's the most practical for the consumer.
    Current VR results imo:
    - Great small apps. Great ports of bigger games.
    - Great VR-specific features. Not enough showcased!!!
    - Too many actors in the industry, the market is totally broken.


    My hopes for VR next gen:

    - Better ratio between visual quality and power needs. No more godrays and less SDE.
    - Full Body Tracking.


    "If you don't mind, do you want me to take you there? Where dreams come true."
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 13,295 Valuable Player
    I would imagine that "both" will always be an option. Similar to a Wired Mouse/Keyboard vs a Wireless setup. Same with home Wifi. Most of my devices are Wireless, but I still prefer a pure Wired connection for my gaming PC.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
  • jayhawkjayhawk Posts: 670
    Neo
    edited April 8
    External sensors will end up that 'old vr tech' of yesterday, if it isn't already. Inside-out isn't just about getting rid of the need for external sensors. It also allows for AR/passthrough, and like the Quest the inside-out sees everything making it a 'go anywhere' device, as opposed to static external sensors that only see the devices. Even the dev in this vid said they were going to look into inside-out for future VR arcade experiences. If Inside-out makes it to VR arcade, then you know external will die. As far as I'm concerned Valve sticking with lighthouse was nothing more than lowering development time and cost.


  • inovatorinovator Posts: 1,630
    Project 2501
    I have no doubt base tracking will go in the direction of the ancient tech.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 5,522 Valuable Player
    edited April 8
    inovator said:
    I have no doubt base tracking will go in the direction of the ancient tech.

    I keep forgetting how great it will be without having sensors. I intend getting a Laptop soon and I will be able to use Rift  -S in any room I choose to use it. A Laptop with a Geforce 1080 in it shouldn't be to expensive either, but I will see what Valve Index offers before I make the plunge and just buy Rift -S.

    My intention then is to save like crazy for a Geforce 2080Ti and then get Rift 2 when it arrives.
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 1,630
    Project 2501
    RedRizla said:
    inovator said:
    I have no doubt base tracking will go in the direction of the ancient tech.

    I keep forgetting how great it will be without having sensors. I intend getting a Laptop soon and I will be able to use Rift  -S in any room I choose to use it. A Laptop with a Geforce 1080 in it should be to expensive either, but I will see what Valve Index offers before I make the plunge and just buy Rift -S.
    But the index will have sensors.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 5,522 Valuable Player
    inovator said:
    RedRizla said:
    inovator said:
    I have no doubt base tracking will go in the direction of the ancient tech.

    I keep forgetting how great it will be without having sensors. I intend getting a Laptop soon and I will be able to use Rift  -S in any room I choose to use it. A Laptop with a Geforce 1080 in it should be to expensive either, but I will see what Valve Index offers before I make the plunge and just buy Rift -S.
    But the index will have sensors.

    Yes, I know. I still want to take a look at it though, but I'm 95% sure I'm getting a Rift -S now. My games are from the Oculus store and I prefer Oculus VR to steam VR. When do you reckon Oculus Rift -S will arrive though? I'm already getting impatient :p
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,209 Valuable Player
    edited April 8
    RedRizla said:
    I really don't know if I should buy a Valve Index or Rift -S this time around. This is mainly down to not knowing which tracking method is going to be the future of VR. I see that Valve index is going to use base stations, but is that something Valve is going to continue with in the future, or do you think they will eventually turn to inside out tracking too?

    I suspect Rift 2 will use inside out tracking, but do you think they could revert back to using outside in tracking once Rift 2 arrives? If inside out tracking is the future then I might as well get a Rift -S. I say this because Oculus will have a head start over Valve and a much better understanding of inside out tracking if that is the future of VR.
    Here is the thing - unless Oculus say tomorrow that they're going to release a CV2 next year - you will have almost another 3 years with the Index that would pay it self off with in that time for whatever price it sells at. The question for you is that worth the value per you to have fun in VR. Why another 3 years? Because in trying to keep a low price - stuff like eye tracking will NOT fit into their current price point. The extra cost for tracking and having to put in new higher end displays to take advantage of the eye tracking would be way too much for something at that price point for many years.

    Vision tracking is going to be the way of VR though. At the end of the day it offers many benefits and over all is cheaper to get right than all the external sensors can provide. The harder question and the reason I would say WAIT before making a decision is that we don't know many details about the Index yet. With that said - I am in the same boat. I just want the best of the best VR we can have right now. Oculus has the best software - just their Rift S is just lacking much value to me at that price point they want to keep at =/ 
  • MorgrumMorgrum Posts: 1,445
    Project 2501

    Yea I am happy with my CV1.

    I spend way to much money on Guns/Ammo, 3d printing, and little plastic/resin soldiers from Games Workshop so I can roll dice and go pew pew at my opponents to upgrade my VR for slight improvements.

    WAAAGH!
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 1,630
    Project 2501
    I'm planning on buying the quest 1st anyhow. I don't want to take in both at the same time. Then all the dust will be settled by the time I'm ready for the 2nd headset.
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 1,630
    Project 2501
    Morgrum said:

    Yea I am happy with my CV1.

    I spend way to much money on Guns/Ammo, 3d printing, and little plastic/resin soldiers from Games Workshop so I can roll dice and go pew pew at my opponents to upgrade my VR for slight improvements.

    For you its a slight improvement and I respect that. For me as a rift owner the s with no sensors is  a huge improvement in itself. The other improvemen's for me are a bonus.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 5,522 Valuable Player
    edited April 8
    @Mradr - I can't say for certain, but I very much doubt that Valve Index will have eye tracking. All it will have is a higher resolution maybe, but for a lot more money then Rift -S. The one thing that has bothered me about CV1 is the godrays and Rift -S will fix that.

    I've also had an Oculus GO for a period of time and the screen looked so much better then CV1. I don't understand some of these reviews that say it's only a slight bump because with the new lenses and screen you will definitely see a big improvement with Rift -S.
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 983
    3Jane
    edited April 8
    jayhawk said:
    External sensors will end up that 'old vr tech' of yesterday, if it isn't already. Inside-out isn't just about getting rid of the need for external sensors. It also allows for AR/passthrough, and like the Quest the inside-out sees everything making it a 'go anywhere' device, as opposed to static external sensors that only see the devices. Even the dev in this vid said they were going to look into inside-out for future VR arcade experiences. If Inside-out makes it to VR arcade, then you know external will die. As far as I'm concerned Valve sticking with lighthouse was nothing more than lowering development time and cost.


    I think cost is part of it, as you would need a lot of cameras to provide the same tracking as two of Valve's Base Stations which has less blind spots that matter for gaming. It's not a bad idea for them to stick with outside in for now. Especially when their system only requires a power outlet and nothing else.

    I think in Oculus' case, getting rid of all the USB cabling was a much bigger issue than a couple of base stations plugged into outlets. For me personally, my VR room isn't in the same room my office/PC was in. The convenience inside out has been to me to only run one cable has been nice. I definitely believe Oculus made the correct move for themselves. I'm not really sure the Rift-S is for me personally but the Inside Out has nothing to do with it. 
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 983
    3Jane
    edited April 8
    RedRizla said:
    @Mradr - I can't say for certain, but I very much doubt that Valve Index will have eye tracking. All it will have is a higher resolution maybe, but for a lot more money then Rift -S. The one thing that has bothered me about CV1 is the godrays and Rift -S will fix that.

    I've also had an Oculus GO for a period of time and the screen looked so much better then CV1. I don't understand some of these reviews that say it's only a slight bump because with the new lenses and screen you will definitely see a big improvement with Rift -S.
    The latest speculation swirling is that it will. 

    https://imgur.com/a/Ee13Xth

    ^ Look at the patent pic where the illuminator is represented and then look at the bulges under the lens housing. 
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,209 Valuable Player
    edited April 8
    pyroth309 said:
    RedRizla said:
    @Mradr - I can't say for certain, but I very much doubt that Valve Index will have eye tracking. All it will have is a higher resolution maybe, but for a lot more money then Rift -S. The one thing that has bothered me about CV1 is the godrays and Rift -S will fix that.

    I've also had an Oculus GO for a period of time and the screen looked so much better then CV1. I don't understand some of these reviews that say it's only a slight bump because with the new lenses and screen you will definitely see a big improvement with Rift -S.
    The latest speculation swirling is that it will. 

    https://imgur.com/a/Ee13Xth

    ^ Look at the patent pic where the illuminator is represented and then look at the bulges under the lens housing. 
    I never said it would though xD If you saw my post about it - it was just speculation base off what we saw from the videos - I am in a number of threads , but I try to keep it related to the thread if we are talking about that section.

    Like I said - unless a CV2 is next year - even at current value of what we know about the Index - it could be still with in reason of what you want to own. Things like god rays would be fix with their new lens design or, as you said, might support some crazy new feature.

    The best thing to do at this time is wait till all the cards are on the table and see what will give you the best value for you buck. I just wanted to say that don't think the Rift S is not an option either, but don't think just because vision tracking is going to be taking over that external tracking still can't be a thing for many years.

    As for why I don't think we will see a CV2 next year with any new features is that, in doing so, it is going to cost a lot and that means there will be a time scale to value that they will have to meet if they wish come out at a low cost entry and the reasons for that is that eye tracking + new displays are going to cost quite a bit to pair with witch might send it out of their 399-499 ball park.

    TLDR: 1) Just wait till both headsets are out. 2) Vision tracking will take over, but don't fear if you still want to use external tracking for a few more years. 3) Always pick what works best for you.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/bb2bmx/display_port_12_makes_sense_only_if_the_valve/
  • Hiro_Protag0nistHiro_Protag0nist Posts: 4,634 Valuable Player
    In most homes, yes i should think so but for the out of home experience i expect it'll be outside in.
  • logotomielogotomie Posts: 76
    Hiro Protagonist
    None of the current tracking solutions will survive more then 1 to 3 generations. At some point controllers will likely just track themselves independently of the headset -> no  more dead zones. But maybe someone has an even better idea how to do cheap good tracking of items in 3d. After all, tracking is the only aspect current headsets differ a lot, which means tracking is the one component that can be substituted most easily. 

  • jayhawkjayhawk Posts: 670
    Neo
    inovator said:
    Morgrum said:

    Yea I am happy with my CV1.

    I spend way to much money on Guns/Ammo, 3d printing, and little plastic/resin soldiers from Games Workshop so I can roll dice and go pew pew at my opponents to upgrade my VR for slight improvements.

    For you its a slight improvement and I respect that. For me as a rift owner the s with no sensors is  a huge improvement in itself. The other improvemen's for me are a bonus.
    The much reduced SDE and god rays are going to be more than slight as well. I had a Go very briefly but remember thinking to myself 'damn if only the Rift looked like this'
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 1,630
    Project 2501
    logotomie said:
    None of the current tracking solutions will survive more then 1 to 3 generations. At some point controllers will likely just track themselves independently of the headset -> no  more dead zones. But maybe someone has an even better idea how to do cheap good tracking of items in 3d. After all, tracking is the only aspect current headsets differ a lot, which means tracking is the one component that can be substituted most easily. 

    Good point. I forgot about the controller tracking solution. But I have no doubt the sensor solution will be the 1st to go.
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 1,630
    Project 2501
    jayhawk said:
    inovator said:
    Morgrum said:

    Yea I am happy with my CV1.

    I spend way to much money on Guns/Ammo, 3d printing, and little plastic/resin soldiers from Games Workshop so I can roll dice and go pew pew at my opponents to upgrade my VR for slight improvements.

    For you its a slight improvement and I respect that. For me as a rift owner the s with no sensors is  a huge improvement in itself. The other improvemen's for me are a bonus.
    The much reduced SDE and god rays are going to be more than slight as well. I had a Go very briefly but remember thinking to myself 'damn if only the Rift looked like this'
    I totally agree. For me the sensor solution would have been enough for me to buy it.  Even if it had no other improvements.
  • DilipDilip Posts: 235
    Nexus 6
    Inside-out tracking need not to be only future proof tracking but it has its own merits being much setup friendly occupy less ports, no extras needed for room scale.

    I believe in future there need to be combination of multiple technologies for inside out tracking,where area not in sight of camera can be tracked with Ultrasonic where Ultrasonic only come in to picture when controllers leave camera sight. so practically one never miss tracking. There really got to be simless transition between multiple tracking techs.   
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,094 Valuable Player
    It won't be long before we have brain implants for VR. Unfortunately that means I'm going to have a tracking advantage compared to everyone else cos my brain is obviously FAR superior compared to all of your brains.

    Thick heads.

     B) :D :D :D B)
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • MorgrumMorgrum Posts: 1,445
    Project 2501
    edited April 9
    snowdog said:
    It won't be long before we have brain implants for VR. Unfortunately that means I'm going to have a tracking advantage compared to everyone else cos my brain is obviously FAR superior compared to all of your brains.

    Thick heads.

     B) :D :D :D B)
    NO! 
    Havent you seen black mirror....
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PdptmzBVZLo
    This is the fun part of the episode it goes so far down the rabbit hole of NOPE!
    WAAAGH!
  • jayhawkjayhawk Posts: 670
    Neo
    logotomie said:
    None of the current tracking solutions will survive more then 1 to 3 generations. At some point controllers will likely just track themselves independently of the headset -> no  more dead zones. But maybe someone has an even better idea how to do cheap good tracking of items in 3d. After all, tracking is the only aspect current headsets differ a lot, which means tracking is the one component that can be substituted most easily. 
    Headset still needs to track itself for positional. Cameras will still be in the front at least for stereo pass-through. Might as well throw in 3 more cameras and just put the tracking job and power load on the HMD. I don't see tracking in the controllers myself. If anything well lose controllers.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,094 Valuable Player
    Having cameras in the controllers is asking for trouble. The battery in each one will only last 5 minutes before needing to be re-charged or replaced.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 983
    3Jane
    edited April 9
    snowdog said:
    Having cameras in the controllers is asking for trouble. The battery in each one will only last 5 minutes before needing to be re-charged or replaced.
    That hasn't stopped WMR!  :D

    (they really last like 4 hours but it's annoying)
  • edmgedmg Posts: 1,114
    Wintermute
    edited April 9
    Outside-in was always a kludge, because it restricts you to places where there are sensors or lighthouses. AR requires the headset to track itself so you can use it anywhere in the world, so VR will adopt that technology too.
  • DilipDilip Posts: 235
    Nexus 6
    jayhawk said:
    logotomie said:
    None of the current tracking solutions will survive more then 1 to 3 generations. At some point controllers will likely just track themselves independently of the headset -> no  more dead zones. But maybe someone has an even better idea how to do cheap good tracking of items in 3d. After all, tracking is the only aspect current headsets differ a lot, which means tracking is the one component that can be substituted most easily. 
    Headset still needs to track itself for positional. Cameras will still be in the front at least for stereo pass-through. Might as well throw in 3 more cameras and just put the tracking job and power load on the HMD. I don't see tracking in the controllers myself. If anything well lose controllers.
    5 Camera in HMD  covering entire 360 degree ...IR gloves tracking hand with all fingers in VR, if not glove than flawless hand tracking that need no equipments at all. 
  • DilipDilip Posts: 235
    Nexus 6
    pyroth309 said:
    That hasn't stopped WMR!  :D
    (they really last like 4 hours but it's annoying)
    WMR doesn't have camera in controllers.
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