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Oculus Explains Why It Doesn’t Think the Time is Right for ‘Rift 2’ or ‘Rift Pro’

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  • JD-UKJD-UK Posts: 2,377 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:.

    It's a shame because I've always liked HTC, I used their mobile phones for YEARS but had to stop because - no prize for guessing correctly - they were just too damn expensive.
    That surprises me - I only ever heard of them once, when I bought one of their phones in Tesco - and it the cheapest "smartphone" on offer.

    I binned it within a couple of weeks because, in fact, it wasn't a smartphone at all - far from it, in any sense of the word.




  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,599 Valuable Player
    edited April 2019
    kevinw729 said:
    I can't comment about the mess of HTC, as one that has to deal with them in their primary market of Enterprise, I just feel for the consumer buyers! But I do think you may be allowing your "bias" to color your objectivity - for all the mess, they have still survived this long.... how long they survive after Index's release, that is another matter.

    I think the "toe" that was dipped by OculusVR my be being removed @snowdog - the companies that did use CV1's in their Enterprise offerings are not enticed to replace their hardware for Rift-S (now supply is dead) - and Quest is not practical, so they may have shot their BE operation in the foot - but lets wait till Rift-S appears before I line up the firing squad.

    I really think HTC will try and go up against Rift-S with Cosmos (access to SteamVR will be important) - while Valve flanks both with Index (not forgetting HP and Reverb which is turning a lot of heads in the short term). Its such a small market to fight over - why I think Facebook VR are being smart to focus on Quest - just a shame they are not doing it with Samsung (that will come round to bite them!)

    They've survived this long because they were rescued from bankruptcy by selling their mobile division. And even after that lifeline they had to make 20% of their workforce redundant. :o

    They're losing money hand over fist and have been doing for quite some time now. Their enterprise VR sector is the only thing keeping them afloat at the moment.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

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  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,215 Valuable Player
    Yeah @snowdog - I was very aware of the $3b that Google invested into them for access to the mobile division patents and also operation team for their 5G aspirations (was also aware how much of that cash went into paying debts!!)

    Wow - that's the first time I have seen it admitted that its their Enterprise team that generates their operational revenue in VR. It has been true since mid 2017, but for some reason no one liked mentioning the fact. Thats why that SteamVR chart may be skewed as most units in Enterprise do not use that service!!!

    Also its interesting to know how many Focus Pros have been sold into our sector! Looking forward to doing a side-by-side comparison with a Quest.

    urdgfqqehbbb.png
    ** Second New Book **
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  • dburnedburne Posts: 3,643 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:
    dburne said:
    Interesting they are asking the question well what is a Rift 2?
    When they revealed almost a year ago what they were already working on with Half Dome, which had all appearances of some nice features that might be in a Rift 2.

    I am sure their strategy makes the most sense for Oculus and what they are trying to achieve for VR. But I am still very disappointed, they added a little for the Rift S but also took away some for the Rift S.
    A little better resolution.
    A little better FOV.
    A little better audio.
    Same or better tracking.
    I would have been all over it anxiously awaiting to press the buy button.

    I "may" still buy one in addition to whichever other headset I get that meets more of what I want, but won't have much excitement in doing so. I suspect the majority of flight and racing sim enthusiasts ( of which I am one) will likely go with another headset this time around. But yes we are the small (and loud) minority...


    @dburne - I've seen of few of your posts saying the same thing about Rift -S. Have you watched hands on reviews of the Rift -S? I don't understand why you keep writing the same thing about Rift -S when the hands on reviews say different. 

    1) It does have a better resolution then CV1 and the reviews say it is very noticeable. The Lcd display also reduces screen door and uses 3 pixels instead of 2 pixels. All hands on reviews say it is a lot better then CV1 and a much sharper image.

    2) Oculus have said they are doing headphones for Rift -S, which may be included so audio will be fine.

    3) The tracking according to hands on reviews is very good and without the need for sensors.
    Well we shall see, will be interesting when normal everyday users get their hands on them.
    You have a source for Oculus change of audio for the S?


    Don

    EVGA Z390 Dark MB | I9 9900k| EVGA 2080Ti FTW3 Ultra |32 GB G Skill 3200 cl14 ram | Warthog Throttle | VKB Gunfighter Pro/MCG Pro grip | Crosswind Pedals | EVGA DG 87 Case| Rift S | Quest |
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,215 Valuable Player
    dburne said:
    ...
    Well we shall see, will be interesting when normal everyday users get their hands on them.
    You have a source for Oculus change of audio for the S?



    Yep

    >"In that token, third-party manufacturers would be able to make their own aftermarket audio add-ons too; it all just depends on how much demand there is from new Rift S owners, something Oculus (or the market) will probably figure out when the headset launches this spring."


    urdgfqqehbbb.png
    ** Second New Book **
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    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • dburnedburne Posts: 3,643 Valuable Player
    kevinw729 said:
    dburne said:
    ...
    Well we shall see, will be interesting when normal everyday users get their hands on them.
    You have a source for Oculus change of audio for the S?



    Yep

    >"In that token, third-party manufacturers would be able to make their own aftermarket audio add-ons too; it all just depends on how much demand there is from new Rift S owners, something Oculus (or the market) will probably figure out when the headset launches this spring."


    Well it also says Oculus "might" do so.
    Not quite saying they are doing headphones for the Rift S.

    Guess we just wait for launch and folks to get them in hand to find out more. Not sure reviews based on 10 min at GDC are going to be quite as in depth as I would hope for.


    Don

    EVGA Z390 Dark MB | I9 9900k| EVGA 2080Ti FTW3 Ultra |32 GB G Skill 3200 cl14 ram | Warthog Throttle | VKB Gunfighter Pro/MCG Pro grip | Crosswind Pedals | EVGA DG 87 Case| Rift S | Quest |
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,215 Valuable Player
    dburne said:
    ......
    Well it also says Oculus "might" do so.
    Not quite saying they are doing headphones for the Rift S.

    The day you see a definitive, confirmed statement from them - please share, as they favor the "mushroom" school of information circulation - but you know that!
    urdgfqqehbbb.png
    ** Second New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • dburnedburne Posts: 3,643 Valuable Player
    kevinw729 said:
    dburne said:
    ......
    Well it also says Oculus "might" do so.
    Not quite saying they are doing headphones for the Rift S.

    The day you see a definitive, confirmed statement from them - please share, as they favor the "mushroom" school of information circulation - but you know that!
    Lol yeah very true.
    Don

    EVGA Z390 Dark MB | I9 9900k| EVGA 2080Ti FTW3 Ultra |32 GB G Skill 3200 cl14 ram | Warthog Throttle | VKB Gunfighter Pro/MCG Pro grip | Crosswind Pedals | EVGA DG 87 Case| Rift S | Quest |
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,599 Valuable Player
    dburne said:
    kevinw729 said:
    dburne said:
    ...
    Well we shall see, will be interesting when normal everyday users get their hands on them.
    You have a source for Oculus change of audio for the S?



    Yep

    >"In that token, third-party manufacturers would be able to make their own aftermarket audio add-ons too; it all just depends on how much demand there is from new Rift S owners, something Oculus (or the market) will probably figure out when the headset launches this spring."


    Well it also says Oculus "might" do so.
    Not quite saying they are doing headphones for the Rift S.

    Guess we just wait for launch and folks to get them in hand to find out more. Not sure reviews based on 10 min at GDC are going to be quite as in depth as I would hope for.



    All of the members of the press and YouTubers had at least 1 hour at the private GDC event, one of them (the MRTV bloke) had 2 hours. This is why I'm not too concerned about the software IPD adjustment, people with IPDs at both extremes played for an hour without experiencing any problems.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,115 Valuable Player
    dburne said:
    Guess we just wait for launch and folks to get them in hand to find out more. Not sure reviews based on 10 min at GDC are going to be quite as in depth as I would hope for.



    Just like @snowdog said: "They had 1 & 2 hours testing Rift -S at GDC," so I think I'm correct in thinking that you haven't seen the latest hands on reviews about Rift -S.
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,424 Valuable Player
    edited April 2019


    Facebook are a software company, they are making headsets with the sole function of getting as many people into their ecosystem as possible.

    What they have done makes complete sense to me. 

    I think the assimilation of oculus by Facebook is now complete. 

    I am going to miss the old pioneer though. 


  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 4,190 Valuable Player
    edited April 2019
    RedRizla said:


    Just like @snowdog said: "They had 1 & 2 hours testing Rift -S at GDC," so I think I'm correct in thinking that you haven't seen the latest hands on reviews about Rift -S.
    I know some of the hands on have been fairly positive... however
    1) when oculus themselves are saying they wont support as high an ipd as on CV1, and that i always have my CV1 ipd pushed to the max, then bottom line i dont trust people who are saying oculus are wrong and RiftS is fine for extreme IPDs... they may be correct but it is in OCulus' interests to downplay any downsides.  The fact that even they are warning us about IPD means i need to try it before i buy it. Until then i am going with Oculus' warnings - but the hands on comments does give me some hope.

    2) of all of the people trying the RiftS and saying the tracking is just fine, have any tried Sports Bar VR yet? this is an acid test of inside out tracking imo.  if RiftS can do that - without playing in a totally un-immersive way then i think i will be happy with the tracking (windows MR fails dismally here) .... but I think the lack of such a video is worrying by its absence.
    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • saami81saami81 Posts: 204
    Nexus 6
    RedRizla said:


    Just like @snowdog said: "They had 1 & 2 hours testing Rift -S at GDC," so I think I'm correct in thinking that you haven't seen the latest hands on reviews about Rift -S.
    I know some of the hands on have been fairly positive... however
    1) when oculus themselves are saying they wont support as high an ipd as on CV1, and that i always have my CV1 ipd pushed to the max, then bottom line i dont trust people who are saying oculus are wrong and RiftS is fine for extreme IPDs... they may be correct but it is in OCulus' interests to downplay any downsides.  The fact that even they are warning us about IPD means i need to try it before i buy it. Until then i am going with Oculus' warnings - but the hands on comments does give me some hope.

    2) of all of the people trying the RiftS and saying the tracking is just fine, have any tried Sports Bar VR yet? this is an acid test of inside out tracking imo.  if RiftS can do that - without playing in a totally un-immersive way then i think i will be happy with the tracking (windows MR fails dismally here) .... but I think the lack of such a video is worrying by its absence.
    Just judging by pictures, cameras seems to let you play billiard normally. Not "backhanders" tho. Cameras cant see behind your back.

    Also keep in mind that your own size could block those cameras from seeing controllers. So, if you are bigger sized you may not be able to as good as someone smaller.
  • WildtWildt Posts: 2,280 Valuable Player
    Fans of social VR applications have been voicing their concerns about inside out lately. When using your hands as part of communicating (gestures, playing charades etc) they're often in the blind spots of even the Lenovo. 

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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,417 Valuable Player
    if oculus do not want to make a rift 2 that is their prerogative etc etc etc, they are the ones with the money to lose

    Money to lose? lol - have you not been paying attention to all the money being lost by those who keep trying to focus on just high-end headsets? Do you not remember HTC selling to Google to avoid bankruptcy? Do you not remember people making fun of Facebook-Oculus for not hitting their "1 billion units sold" mark?

    You have it backwards. Facebook and Oculus are tired of losing money, so they are putting high-end hardware on pause until they start making money.
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  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 4,190 Valuable Player
    saami81 said:
    Just judging by pictures, cameras seems to let you play billiard normally. Not "backhanders" tho. Cameras cant see behind your back.

    See... I am a bit confused here because you seem to contradict yourself...... you can play normally but cameras cant see behind your back.

    isnt that a bit of a contradiction?.

    (I am not trying to be sarcastic btw) I only know of 1 way to cue in  pool/snooker properly

    just for some humour, this has reminded me of this quality video.  no idea if genuine or contrived however



    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,417 Valuable Player
    edited April 2019
    saami81 said:
    Just judging by pictures, cameras seems to let you play billiard normally. Not "backhanders" tho. Cameras cant see behind your back.

    See... I am a bit confused here because you seem to contradict yourself...... you can play normally but cameras cant see behind your back.

    isnt that a bit of a contradiction?.

    Try that again. He didn't say "you can play normally" he said "let you play billiard normally." Do you not know what billiard is? He also said, "Not backhanders tho." Do you know what it means to be a backhander in billiards? I'm guessing you don't know what it means to play billiards; else you would not have thought that he contradicted himself.
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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,424 Valuable Player
    edited April 2019
    Ok I think know what billiards is unless it is completely different in America so how would you play normally as it wouldn't see your hand on the back of the cue?



    Mind you its a pretty weird game to be playing in VR but interesting though.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,417 Valuable Player
    edited April 2019
    Decent pic, Luci. And the side cameras would still track your hands normally.

    But behind-the-back is not how its played normally, and the lack of behind-the-back camera tracking could prove somewhat problematic:



    Granted, the tracking algorithms may allow for this gesture to take place just fine.
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  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 5,505 Volunteer Moderator
    Ok I think know what billiards is unless it is completely different in America so how would you play normally as it wouldn't see your hand on the back of the cue?

    Mind you its a pretty weird game to be playing in VR but interesting though.


    I think the controller will probably be tracked in the position shown here. The side camera is forward of his face and points a little back, and the ring on the controller is in front of his hand. It's possible that it could be occluded by his shoulder, but when I hold my hand in pool cue position, it seems like there would still be a direct line of sight from the side of the headset.
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  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 5,505 Volunteer Moderator
    edited April 2019
    Zenbane said:
    if oculus do not want to make a rift 2 that is their prerogative etc etc etc, they are the ones with the money to lose

    Money to lose? lol - have you not been paying attention to all the money being lost by those who keep trying to focus on just high-end headsets? Do you not remember HTC selling to Google to avoid bankruptcy? Do you not remember people making fun of Facebook-Oculus for not hitting their "1 billion units sold" mark?

    You have it backwards. Facebook and Oculus are tired of losing money, so they are putting high-end hardware on pause until they start making money.
    I think he was saying that Oculus are the ones who would be putting their money on the line if they blew the wad on a high-end headset like HTC did with Vive Pro. In other words, he's agreeing that making a Rift 2 would be a financial risk.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,417 Valuable Player
    nalex66 said:
    I think he was saying that Oculus are the ones who would be putting their money on the line if they blew the wad on a high-end headset like HTC did with Vive Pro. In other words, he's agreeing that making a Rift 2 would be a financial risk.

    I read it different, but I guess Mr. Mike can clarify!

    I would agree that there is more to lose by going for a Rift 2 now, based on what the market as shown over the last 3 years. But I read his comment as Oculus risking a lose by "not focusing" on a Rift 2.
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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,599 Valuable Player
    That Ronnie O'Sullivan video is genuine I think.

    I would laugh at it but I've come VERY close to leaning on surfaces and placing my Touch controllers on surfaces myself in VR so I can't judge lol :o:D:D:D

    Haven't gone arse over tit though...YET :D
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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,424 Valuable Player
    edited April 2019
    hmm not convinced, if you look at this video the hand is under the chest a lot. 
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlk3lJgC8NI
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,417 Valuable Player
    edited April 2019
    hmm not convinced, if you look at this video the hand is under the chest a lot. 

    I don't think we need video evidence for billards/pool. I'm sure everyone has a ball, a stick, and a table at home. Just try it lol

    I played it for years back in college and the position changes based on the situation. Between the cameras and the tracking algorithm in the software, I feel confident (based on other video evidence of the Rift-S tracking outside of camera view) that this is all a non-issue.
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  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 5,505 Volunteer Moderator
    hmm not convinced, if you look at this video the hand is under the chest a lot. 
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlk3lJgC8NI
    Granted, using a pool cue is a bit of an edge case. It may mean that you can't lean in quite as far, but I find I don't do that anyway, since I can't put my weight on the (virtual) table. It still seems to me that line-of-sight is mostly maintained unless I'm in a really extreme position. The fact that you can walk through the table should mean that those positions are not typically necessary to line up your shot.
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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,424 Valuable Player
    edited April 2019
    Its a non issue for me as well as I have no intention of playing VR billiards or owning a Rift S lol.
  • Nekto2Nekto2 Posts: 297
    Nexus 6
    Why would a rift 2 break anything that is in rift 1, even if they are talking some major new features.
    Because you will get bigger score in BeatSabber with Rift2? :lol:

    ps. But there is split with DK2 and Rift+xbox users (without touch) or 9xx with 10xx/20xx video card users.

  • Nekto2Nekto2 Posts: 297
    Nexus 6

    We'll see the CV2 being released in 2022 for $600. Remember, the snowdog is right 99.9% of the time  B)
    Not a chance - IMHO of course.

    Then we will have VR Experience of 2022 with CV2 inside!
    :)
  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 4,190 Valuable Player
    edited April 2019
    Zenbane said:

    Try that again. He didn't say "you can play normally" he said "let you play billiard normally." Do you not know what billiard is? He also said, "Not backhanders tho." Do you know what it means to be a backhander in billiards? I'm guessing you don't know what it means to play billiards; else you would not have thought that he contradicted himself.
    so i guess the problem is i was talking about sportsbar VR a pool game.  bar billiards in the UK at least AFAIK the cue is held in the same way but i do not know for sure..... and no, not heard of the term backhander...... well i have.... but not in this context. A backhander to me is something i may give to a bouncer to let me jump the queue in a club, or to get a dodgy building past planning permission.

    the images which followed now i see what you mean by backhander and i must admit it is not a problem for me, i do not play like that...... but as for the tracking on a more conventional stance, i would love to see, mainly because this is an area where windows MR epically fails (or did anyway, and i am not sure how it could be fixed).... it would be an easy demonstrable win to show better tracking of the rift S if they showed it running properly - albeit maybe without Ronnie falling on his ass.
    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
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