WTF? are you thinking with your controllers? — Oculus
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WTF? are you thinking with your controllers?

I hope Oculus reads this. Why are your new controllers so ridiculous? I bought an oculus because I liked the circle to be around my hands so I can hold it with ease and use it more naturally. With the new design you guys have coming out the big O serves no purpose just like the vive controllers. Please make your controllers like you did before as they actually served a purpose and were useful.
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Comments

  • TheRealCyberTheRealCyber Posts: 134
    Art3mis
    The ring is positioned that way so the sensors on the headset can see it (remember Rift S/Quest are using inside out tracking, different from the original external sensors used with Touch). If you think about it for a moment, you will see the purpose.
  • edmgedmg Posts: 1,131
    Wintermute
    Yeah, it's a downside of the inside-out tracking. The loops have to be where the cameras on the headset can see them.
  • cybernettrcybernettr Posts: 902
    3Jane
    Looks to me like the new controllers will give your hands less protection should you hit them against something. Big drawback!
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,629 Valuable Player
    edited May 11
    With the old controllers, your hands didn't protect the controllers, big drawback.

    In all seriousness, the new passthrough guardian system should eliminate most if not all of your hand to wall contact. And if not, I'd rather my hand hit something than my controllers even though they've proved to be pretty tough things. The things they're hitting (like a TV) aren't, so it's not great if people ignore guardian and just rely on the controllers as some sort of boxing glove.

    In either case to the OP, as Cyber (TheRealCyber) says, the hoops serve exactly the same purpose as they've always done, they house the IR LEDs that allow them to be tracked, they just have to be higher now because the device doing the tracking is the headset.
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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,270
    Wintermute
    edited May 10
    Looks to me like the new controllers will give your hands less protection should you hit them against something. Big drawback!
    Yea I agree, would much rather destroy and replace the controllers than hit my hands especially with a system that is encouraging movement and freedom. I have very long arms and that's just going to pretty much restrict me to play in wide open areas but I get that they didn't have much of a choice so whatever. 
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,270
    Wintermute
    edited May 11
    The new design does serve a purpose: it's for better tracking.
    Also, the controller is not supposed to protect your hand. Do you know what serves that purpose? Tidying your room ;) .
    Well with a mobile headset, sometimes you're going to run into problems where you're playing in a less than ideal space because that's all that's available is all. (IE in my office when I should be working Lol) It only takes one slip up to end up in the ER with stitches lol. But it's a moot point anyway because it's not like they wanted to flip the ring, they had to. 
  • Digikid1Digikid1 Posts: 1,839 Valuable Player
    I hope Oculus reads this. Why are your new controllers so ridiculous? I bought an oculus because I liked the circle to be around my hands so I can hold it with ease and use it more naturally. With the new design you guys have coming out the big O serves no purpose just like the vive controllers. Please make your controllers like you did before as they actually served a purpose and were useful.
    You’re quite correct however it is for a reason. That reason being that the sensors in the headset could not see the LED lights in the ring unless they moved them. 

    It is a flaw in their design and hopefully they will fix it in the next version. Better yet hopefully the next design will be haptic gloves or the ability to use our natural hands. 
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 13,658 Valuable Player
    edited May 11
    I don't understand this idea that keeps popping up about "protecting my hands." The Vive Wands and Index Knuckles don't protect your hands either, so why is Oculus supposed to play the role of nurse nanny to everyone's hands all of a sudden?

    For anyone who has sensitive hands that need protection during video games, I recommend some Boxing as a form of exercise.



    If you really need hand-protection, buy some Gloves:
    https://www.amazon.com/slp/hand-protection-gloves/j4smta5xg6ee3hm


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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,270
    Wintermute
    edited May 11
    Zenbane said:
    I don't understand this idea that keeps popping up about "protecting my hands." The Vive Wands and Index Knuckles don't protect your hands either, so why is Oculus supposed to play the role of nurse nanny to everyone's hands all of a sudden?

    For anyone who has sensitive hands that need protection during video games, I recommend some Boxing as a form of exercise.



    If you really need hand-protection, buy some Gloves:
    https://www.amazon.com/slp/hand-protection-gloves/j4smta5xg6ee3hm


    The talk of the protection it offers has been going on since touch came out. Moreso on reddit though. Personally, I've hit many things with my touch and I was glad that ring was there. The guardian isn't the greatest solution when you have arms as long as me and you're in a smaller space. If you set it tight it just stays showing up nearly 100% of the time which is annoying and you end up ignoring it lol. (Dont' have the problem these days as I have a dedicated VR room)

    Boxing isn't going to stop sharp corners or glass from ripping into flesh lol.

    Gloves would have to be fingerless or you'd lose the capacitive touch capability.

    That all said, I'm good with the new design and will make it work but I understand why people feel that way.  
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 13,658 Valuable Player
    edited May 11
    pyroth309 said:
    The talk of the protection it offers has been going on since touch came out. Moreso on reddit though. Personally, I've hit many things with my touch and I was glad that ring was there. The guardian isn't the greatest solution when you have arms as long as me and you're in a smaller space. If you set it tight it just stays showing up nearly 100% of the time which is annoying and you end up ignoring it lol. (Dont' have the problem these days as I have a dedicated VR room)
    People with the Vive and PlayStation VR seem to have no problem engaging in Boxing and other hand-intensity movements without much issue. I've punched things with my Touch controllers too, but I've punched a lot worse things with my bare hands during my time on this Earth, and my hands are still fine. I don't see a real problem.

    Boxing isn't going to stop sharp corners or glass from ripping into flesh lol.

    So you have never boxed then? Hitting a bag over long periods of time will cause calluses on your hands, and that certainly helps protect your skin. Just check the bottom of your feet. Similar to how playing guitar for a long time will cause calluses on your finger tips, which prevents "bleeding" caused by sliding your fingers across strings... and also makes guitar playing even easier overall.

    Also, move or protect sharp corners and glass in areas where you are going to flail your arms around while blind-folded. I don't see why Oculus needs to be responsible for someone's common sense.


    Gloves would have to be fingerless or you'd lose the capacitive touch capability.

    Cut the tips of the Gloves off. Simple, no?
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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,270
    Wintermute
    edited May 11
    Zenbane said:
    Boxing isn't going to stop sharp corners or glass from ripping into flesh lol.

    So you have never boxed then? Hitting a bag over long periods of time will cause calluses on your hands, and that certainly helps protect your skin. Just check the bottom of your feet. Similar to how playing guitar for a long time will cause calluses on your finger tips, which prevents "bleeding" caused by sliding your fingers across strings... and also makes guitar playing even easier overall.

    Also, move or protect sharp corners and glass in areas where you are going to flail your arms around while blind-folded. I don't see why Oculus needs to be responsible for someone's common sense.


    Gloves would have to be fingerless or you'd lose the capacitive touch capability.

    Cut the tips of the Gloves off. Simple, no?
    Yep I have boxed, also worked on a farm at one point when I was younger and also did powerlifting, all 3 put calluses all over my hands. They still could be cut and bleed though. But we're getting sidetracked

    I agree with you that it isn't on Oculus to make sure your space is safe to play in but I also can relate to those who feel like it's a lost feature if they relied on it. 

    For me, I plan to use my quest in my office when I have downtime and it will be a challenge but that's my problem and I'm aware of that. I already have some corner guards ordered lol. 
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 13,658 Valuable Player
    edited May 11
    pyroth309 said:
    Yep I have boxed, also worked on a farm at one point when I was younger and also did powerlifting, all 3 put calluses all over my hands. They still could be cut and bleed though.

    Okay so you are worried about your hands getting cut and bleeding. Didn't you order the Valve Index??

    So where is your concern about your hand cutting and bleeding with Knuckles? I see you made a post about your Knuckles suggestion:
    https://forums.oculusvr.com/community/discussion/comment/675427/#Comment_675427

    But your suggestion has nothing to do with protecting the hand! Since you brought up sharp corners, glass, cutting, and bleeding... tell me, what do you think is going to happen to your fingers with this thing:


    ???
    Do you think that the hand itself or the fingers are more prone to injury? ;)

    I'm wondering why you are overly concerned about hand safety with the Quest hand-controllers, but then you throw caution to the wind in a "worse" situation with Knuckles.


    I agree with you that it isn't on Oculus to make sure your space is safe to play in but I also can relate to those who feel like it's a lost feature if they relied on it.

    I would argue that people using the older Touch controllers for hand-protection were using something "not as intended." I would also argue that by Oculus removing that "not as intended" feature, that they are forcing people to rely on common sense instead, which is better for everyone.

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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,270
    Wintermute
    edited May 11
    You missed the part where I said I have a dedicated VR room which is where my Index is going and I don't have a problem in there. :smile:

    I have a problem in my office with a tight space with the quest and I also said that I got some protectors on order. I also said I don't have a big issue with it. 
  • CrashFuCrashFu Posts: 1,690 Valuable Player
    Hands heal on their own, but we sadly have not yet invented self-regenerating plastic and replacement controllers cost money. :grimace:

    Btw, last time i visited Best Buy, they had the display up for the new Oculus devices; they weren't running demos yet, sadly, but I got the chance to hold one of the controllers.

    I like it! The new grips feel great, the ergonomics on the button/thumbstick placement are excellent, the upwards ring gives me juuust enough room for my thumbs to comfortably stretch, and now I have plenty more room to stretch the rest of my fingers.

    The only way it could be better is if the handle itself was just a couple centimers longer, so I had a wider area for my lower digits to grip. (And i have XL hands, so this shouldn't even be an issue for anyone else)

    In other words, as far as I can see, the redesigned Touch controllers are essentially perfect :+1:
    Merry Riftmas, everybody!
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,270
    Wintermute
    CrashFu said:
    Hands heal on their own, but we sadly have not yet invented self-regenerating plastic and replacement controllers cost money. :grimace:

    Btw, last time i visited Best Buy, they had the display up for the new Oculus devices; they weren't running demos yet, sadly, but I got the chance to hold one of the controllers.

    I like it! The new grips feel great, the ergonomics on the button/thumbstick placement are excellent, the upwards ring gives me juuust enough room for my thumbs to comfortably stretch, and now I have plenty more room to stretch the rest of my fingers.

    The only way it could be better is if the handle itself was just a couple centimers longer, so I had a wider area for my lower digits to grip. (And i have XL hands, so this shouldn't even be an issue for anyone else)

    In other words, as far as I can see, the redesigned Touch controllers are essentially perfect :+1:
    Is it worse than the old Touch? That was a problem for me on CV1 touch, always felt like I wish they were a little bit longer. I have pretty wide hands. 
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 13,658 Valuable Player
    pyroth309 said:
    You missed the part where I said I have a dedicated VR room which is where my Index is going and I don't have a problem in there.

    I have a problem in my office with a tight space with the quest and I also said that I got some protectors on order. I also said I don't have a big issue with it. 

    I'm simply asking why you stress the concern with Quest Controllers but not the Valve Knuckles considering that the problem is worse with Knuckles.
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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,270
    Wintermute
    Zenbane said:
    pyroth309 said:
    You missed the part where I said I have a dedicated VR room which is where my Index is going and I don't have a problem in there.

    I have a problem in my office with a tight space with the quest and I also said that I got some protectors on order. I also said I don't have a big issue with it. 

    I'm simply asking why you stress the concern with Quest Controllers but not the Valve Knuckles considering that the problem is worse with Knuckles.
    Because of the location of where I'm going to be using the Quest. My Index is going to be static and only operating in an empty dedicated VR room. That is the answer.

    You're attacking me though like this is my thread lol. I was just saying I can see where they're coming from. I already bought a Quest so obviously I don't have a huge problem with it. 
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 13,658 Valuable Player
    edited May 11
    pyroth309 said:
    Because of the location of where I'm going to be using the Quest. My Index is going to be static and only operating in an empty dedicated VR room. That is the answer.

    So you will never ever take your Index anywhere else? That's interesting.

    Are there walls in the room where you will use your Index? Because if there are walls, and you have your fingers extended while swinging your hands around - which is a main feature of Knuckles - then you could break one or more fingers against a wall.

    pyroth309 said:
    You're attacking me though like this is my thread lol.

    Oh now "attack" is a rather strong word here, don't you think? I mean... are you "attacking" Quest's Knuckles?

    I was just saying I can see where they're coming from.

    I can see where they are coming from too, and it's not a place that should be reinforced. These complaints come from a place that seems devoid of practicality as well as embracing a healthy dose of double-standards.


    I already bought a Quest so obviously I don't have a huge problem with it. 

    Yeah but you also ordered an Index and there is this strange phenomena that takes place where as soon as someone gets a non-Oculus product they end up being overly critical about Oculus products even in situations that they themselves find acceptable with their non-Oculus products. Such as you not being concerned about breaking your fingers against walls in your VR Room with Valve Knuckles, but being concerned about slicing your hands open with glass while using Quest at your office.

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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,270
    Wintermute
    Zenbane said:
    pyroth309 said:
    Because of the location of where I'm going to be using the Quest. My Index is going to be static and only operating in an empty dedicated VR room. That is the answer.

    So you will never ever take your Index anywhere else? That's interesting.

    Are there walls in the room where you will use your Index? Because if there are walls, and you have your fingers extended while swinging your hands around - which is a main feature of Knuckles - then you could break one or more fingers against a wall.

    pyroth309 said:
    You're attacking me though like this is my thread lol.

    Oh now "attack" is a rather strong word here, don't you think? I mean... are you "attacking" Quest's Knuckles?

    I was just saying I can see where they're coming from.

    I can see where they are coming from too, and it's not a place that should be reinforced. These complaints come from a place that seems devoid of practicality as well as embracing a healthy dose of double-standards.


    I have a large dedicated VR room. IE I have plenty of room to create an effective guardian. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, most of the damage to my Touch came before I had this room. Once I had it, I didn't have a problem with my Oculus either. 


    I already bought a Quest so obviously I don't have a huge problem with it. 

    Yeah but you also ordered an Index and there is this strange phenomena that takes place where as soon as someone gets a non-Oculus product they end up being overly critical about Oculus products even in situations that they themselves find acceptable with their non-Oculus products. Such as you not being concerned about breaking your fingers against walls in your VR Room with Valve Knuckles, but being concerned about slicing your hands open with glass while using Quest at your office.

    LOL. I'd say there's a strange phenomena here that anytime Oculus releases something new opinions seem to suddenly support whatever it is despite making statements completely to the contrary in the past.

    I have been critical of my Oculus products long before I bought anything else. Go back and look in the Beat Saber Community thread for some complaints of the tracking for example. This is 100% a load of BS. 
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 13,658 Valuable Player
    edited May 11
    pyroth309 said:
    I have a large dedicated VR room. IE I have plenty of room to create an effective guardian. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, most of the damage to my Touch came before I had this room. Once I had it, I didn't have a problem with my Oculus either.

    How large is your room exactly? I have a large area as well, but I actually "walk around." So eventually, due to the nature of walking, I end up near a wall. Do you walk around your VR Room?


    LOL. I'd say there's a strange phenomena here that anytime Oculus releases something new opinions seem to suddenly support whatever it is despite making statements completely to the contrary in the past.

    Feel free to site some examples. I noticed you skipped doing that. I listed my example, of the problem fingers face with Valve Knuckles.

    Since you say you can see where people are coming from if they have small spaces, such as your office, would you then agree that Valve Index is "bad" for anyone with a small space? So you believe that unless someone has as big a VR Room as yours, that they should completely avoid buying Index? In fact, overall we can agree that Valve Index creates a much bigger safety hazard than either Quest or Rift-S, due to the fingers being extended while blind-folded.

    Would you agree?

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  • Comic_Book_GuyComic_Book_Guy Posts: 1,110
    3Jane
    edmg said:
    Yeah, it's a downside of the inside-out tracking. The loops have to be where the cameras on the headset can see them.
    Maybe I'm the only one that doesn't hit things with my expensive equipment. Maybe...don't do that?
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,270
    Wintermute
    Zenbane said:
    pyroth309 said:
    I have a large dedicated VR room. IE I have plenty of room to create an effective guardian. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, most of the damage to my Touch came before I had this room. Once I had it, I didn't have a problem with my Oculus either.

    How large is your room exactly? I have a large area as well, but I actually "walk around." So eventually, due to the nature of walking, I end up near a wall. Do you walk around your VR Room?
    12x14 and yes I do. With my Rift I ran a 8x9 or so area to keep tracking as good as possible but one side I could still hit the wall where the 2 front sensors were mounted. I then turned diagonal in a corner and moved my guardian in a little bit and couldn't touch the walls. That worked great until I retired my Rift. With the Index I'm planning something similar but more centered away from the walls since Light House can shoot farther. I won't know what I actually end up with untilI have it in hand and do some trial and error. 

    Feel free to site some examples. I noticed you skipped doing that. I listed my example, of the problem fingers face with Valve Knuckles.
    I'd rather not go farther down this road. I digress.

    Since you say you can see where people are coming from if they have small spaces, such as your office, would you then agree that Valve Index are "bad" for anyone with a small space? So you believe that unless someone has as big a VR Room as yours, that they should completely avoid buying Index? Would you agree?
    Probably are bad for a small area. I wouldn't use them in a small area. It would also be a waste to me because they're designed for room scale tracking. I wouldn't say that they should completely avoid buying it as that's their own opinion but I wouldn't buy it with a small space. 
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,395 Valuable Player
    Well I'm going to miss the protective part of the old Touch controllers too, I've bashed my door countless times with the things...but being a (reasonably) sensible sort of chap I'll just have to remember to close my bloody door before I start playing lol  :D
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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,270
    Wintermute
    edited May 11
    Zenbane said:

    So you will never ever take your Index anywhere else? That's interesting.
    I thought I responded to this, oops. 

    I don't plan on it unless I have to move or something. It's going to be a fixed asset for the next couple of years lol. That's a big reason why I bought a Quest.

    Like I've said when we were talking about the Index Audio, I'm fortunate to have an extra room to utilize for VR that I can shut the door and disappear in. I'm not the average use case considering I now own 6 VR headsets.  Rift, GearVR, PSVR, Odyssey+, Index, and Quest.

    I'm really not just ripping on Oculus stuff unfairly or with bias. I've mentioned weaknesses or things I don't like about all of my headsets here. O+ tracking weaknesses and the concentric rings, and the small sweet spot, and the blur. I've ripped PSVR several times here (too long to type). I didn't like GearVR so I hardly commented on it. I've been mostly positive of my Rift except for USB and tracking woes and I've talked up the original Touch as the best controller around for years. 

    I'm actually pretty excited for the Quest in the last couple of days as it's starting to sink in that I will have it in 10-12 days or so and I will have cordless VR anywhere.

    I've been focusing more on the PCVR stuff because that's where my heart lies but I can't wait for Quest, not only for myself but to show it off to some friends who are teetering on the VR edge. I'm hoping a 400 buck buy in to be in and playing will tip some of them over once I show it to them. 
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 13,658 Valuable Player
    @pyroth309 I hear what you're saying, but what I think needs to be understood here is that the way you personally choose to use your equipment in no way exhibits an actual design flaw in any of the hardware. Knuckles have less protection than new Touch, however, both products are just fine because both products come with Safety Warnings and some form of Boundary System for aided protection.

    If you, personally, choose to keep your Index in a safer area then great. But if you also choose to intentionally take your Quest to a small space that, as you say, has sharp edges and glass... then that's 100% your fault, not the fault of the Hardware.

    If you choose to take your Desktop, while it is fully plugged in to an electrical outlet, and sit in a full bathtub, then it isn't the obligation of the Company to make sure that they waterproof computers. There are plenty of warnings about electrical discharge when electrical devices are purchased.

    There is not a single hand-controller that has been designed for safety. Not the wands for the Vive, not the wands for PlayStation VR, not the controllers for WMR, nor any of the Oculus Touch Controllers. There is no product problem nor flaw in this situation. There is only the bad judgement of the individual consumer.
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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,270
    Wintermute
    edited May 11

    @pyroth309 I hear what you're saying, but what I think needs to be understood here is that the way you personally choose to use your equipment in no way exhibits an actual design flaw in any of the hardware. Knuckles have less protection than new Touch, however, both products are just fine because both products come with Safety Warnings and some form of Boundary System for aided protection.


    Agreed and wasn't trying to imply that it was a fault of the product. I was simply answering your question about why I didn't point out the same scenario on the Index. 

    If you, personally, choose to keep your Index in a safer area then great. But if you also choose to intentionally take your Quest to a small space that, as you say, has sharp edges and glass... then that's 100% your fault, not the fault of the Hardware.

    No disagreement here. I was just pointing out that It's more hazardous for me in my situation to use the new touch than it would be with the original touch as an example to show that I understand what the OP is talking about. I wasn't mentioning that to place blame on anyone other than myself. It was an observation. I also mentioned that I have taken measures with corner protectors (and also some pillows lol) to protect myself while I'm visually impaired from reality in that tight space. 

    There is not a single hand-controller that has been designed for safety. Not the wands for the Vive, not the wands for PlayStation VR, not the controllers for WMR, nor any of the Oculus Touch Controllers. There is no product problem nor flaw in this situation. There is only the bad judgement of the individual consumer.

    While I agree with the general premise, I have to also agree to the reality that whether it was intentional design or not, the ring across the fingers protected your hand better than the new design does. We can argue around in circles about why that is or whether that's the intended/proper use etc. But that's the reality of it. That being said, I never expected Oculus to keep it that way, especially with an inside out headset needing to be able to see the rings and I was definitely not criticising them for it.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,395 Valuable Player
    Zenbane said:
    @pyroth309 I hear what you're saying, but what I think needs to be understood here is that the way you personally choose to use your equipment in no way exhibits an actual design flaw in any of the hardware. Knuckles have less protection than new Touch, however, both products are just fine because both products come with Safety Warnings and some form of Boundary System for aided protection.

    If you, personally, choose to keep your Index in a safer area then great. But if you also choose to intentionally take your Quest to a small space that, as you say, has sharp edges and glass... then that's 100% your fault, not the fault of the Hardware.

    If you choose to take your Desktop, while it is fully plugged in to an electrical outlet, and sit in a full bathtub, then it isn't the obligation of the Company to make sure that they waterproof computers. There are plenty of warnings about electrical discharge when electrical devices are purchased.

    There is not a single hand-controller that has been designed for safety. Not the wands for the Vive, not the wands for PlayStation VR, not the controllers for WMR, nor any of the Oculus Touch Controllers. There is no product problem nor flaw in this situation. There is only the bad judgement of the individual consumer.

    Dear Ocu-zzzzzzzzzzzztttt!!!!
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    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 13,658 Valuable Player
    edited May 11
    pyroth309 said:
    I was just pointing out that It's more hazardous for me in my situation to use the new touch than it would be with the original touch as an example to show that I understand what the OP is talking about.

    The OP is not talking about your personal situation though. This thread is not about "VR for pyroth309," this thread is about VR for all consumers.
    The OP is suggesting that Touch was originally designed to protect the hand, and there is simply no evidence of that. The hand protection is a perceived benefit that is a byproduct of certain consumers using the product in a way that is not originally intended.

    The new Touch controllers are not more hazardous in your situation at all; the fact is that you are intentionally taking your VR HMD in to a hazardous situation. Intentionally using it in tight spaces with sharp edges and glass is an error in judgement; and certainly goes against any safety warnings that ship with any of these VR products.

    I have to also agree to the reality that whether it was intentional design or not, the ring across the fingers protected your hand better than the new design does.

    Dismissing the intended use and best practices of VR is not a valid approach to this argument. And my main point is that you have also chosen a product that offers even less protection while increasing the risk to fingers, in the Valve Index. Just because you claim that you plan to keep your Index in a safer area doesn't mean that you have uncovered a design flaw in the new Touch.

    There is also a big problem with your overall stance here because... how do you even know that the original Touch controllers protect your hand? Did you strike your hand in your current VR Room? Because if you did, then why do you think you won't also strike your hand with the Knuckles?

    Did you take your Rift CV1 to your hazardous office space? If you did, then why would you avoid taking your Index there?

    Something just doesn't seem to add up! :o

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