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Rift S - Please read before you buy - Tracking problems with realistic FPS sims & Archery

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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,274 Valuable Player
    If Oculus ever intend on allowing external optional sensors, it will not be for some months at least. If they introduce them now it looks like the current tracking has failed in the eyes of the world.

    I would imagine come 3/4 months time they may then slip it in an update with as little fanfare as possible.
  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,327
    Project 2501
    edited May 2019
    Wildt said:
    I appreciate you sharing your frustrations with the tracking, but after learning how high (but understandably so) your expectations are, I'm a little surprised you bought it in the first place.
    Nate was pretty open about the fact that there would obviously be blind spots, so I reckon you just hoped the software was better at handling the loss of tracking?

    I'm not sure you know, I really wanted an upgrade for my Rift because god rays and low res really bothered me, I just wanted it to be better. Rift S is almost perfect in every way apart from this issue.

    My only concern going in was the audio but at least with the audio I knew what I was getting myself into but I will admit I didn't realise the tracking would be an issue with these games, it never occurred to me, and I'm sure I saw those same reviews as you guys too on YouTube but maybe I just thought it wouldn't be that bad or would be 99% perfect.

    I didn't think it would lose tracking close to your face, I think I had this presumption going in that it would just lose tracking when you put your hands behind your back in Lone Echo. I really didn't think it would effect In Death which is pretty much my favorite game.

    I'm keeping Rift S anyways, the visual quality when playing Robo Recall and Audica is awesome. 

    I'm going to just play In Death and other similar games in CV1 for now. So I know I am lucky to have both. I think I will keep this setup until Rift CV2 arrives.
    UK: England - Leeds - - RTX 2080 - Rift CV1 & Rift S - Make love, not war - See you in the Oasis!
  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,327
    Project 2501
    Wildt said:
    There's no doubt it's an area where both Oculus and the app devs will continue to push improvements, so let's hope it'll all wind up being much more acceptable than now. 
    This quote from Carmack seems to back that up :)   https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/bsfgu0/closetoheadset_controller_tracking_is_being/

    That's awesome, lets see what they can do then.
    UK: England - Leeds - - RTX 2080 - Rift CV1 & Rift S - Make love, not war - See you in the Oasis!
  • rVRclosetrVRcloset Posts: 375
    Trinity
    Just tried bow and arrow in skyrim, no issues aiming and shooting.
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  • saami81saami81 Posts: 171
    Art3mis
    I played some Zero caliber and i think that somekind of gunstock is mandatory. I tried both with and without selfmade "protube" and it is very hard for me to keep close hand(right) at enough distance from hmd without gunstock.

    With rightly adjusted gunstock there are no issues. I havent played any bow games yet, but im sure there will be some issues when "aiming down sight".
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,547 Valuable Player
    edited May 2019
    MowTin said:
    I'm surprised by all these issues. Seems the YouTubers mislead us. They said the tracking was flawless. It seems we were misled.

    Exactly - even though these reviews were done by so called "experts". It seems to illustrate that these reviews were biased and really cannot be trusted - and that might be worth remembering if a lot of "Index is awesome" reviews are coming from these YouTubers next week.

    We need tests done by users who don't depend on getting new free VR hardware from a supplier. 

    FPS and archery games provide some of the most awesome VR experiences, of course tracking must be perfect in such games.  
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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,281 Valuable Player
    I had a feeling that they would improve things as time goes on. Great to hear. Both the Rift and the Vive had tracking issues in the beginning so hopefully Carmack can work some magic with the Rift S.
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  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,859 Valuable Player
    edited May 2019
    SkScotchegg said:I didn't think it would lose tracking close to your face, I think I had this presumption going in that it would just lose tracking when you put your hands behind your back in Lone Echo. I really didn't think it would effect In Death which is pretty much my favorite game.

    Most reviewers said that there was a blind spot close to the HMD. 

    Here's a guy playing In Death on the Rift-S


    i7 6700k 2080ti   Rift-S, Index
  • JeremyC85JeremyC85 Posts: 315
    Trinity
    edited May 2019
    ^^ wow this guy makes me look bad at this game!! holy crap !!

    btw who else wishes you could walk about twice as fast in this game...
  • kojackkojack Posts: 5,985 Volunteer Moderator
    I haven't tried close guns or archery yet. But what I noticed (before the death snow killed all pos tracking) was how bad watch interfaces are now, such as Dash and Arizona Sunshine.
    To view a watch, you turn your hand so the tracking ring faces down, reducing it's visibility. You then move your other hand over to in front of it to point at the watch options, your right hand is now fully occluding the left tracking ring.

    Eating the hamburger patty in Arizona Sunshine (grab patty and tap it near your face) will result in a bunch of people hitting their headsets. Ok, minor issue, but something to be aware of. :)

  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,926 Valuable Player
    edited May 2019
    MowTin said:
    SkScotchegg said:I didn't think it would lose tracking close to your face, I think I had this presumption going in that it would just lose tracking when you put your hands behind your back in Lone Echo. I really didn't think it would effect In Death which is pretty much my favorite game.

    Most reviewers said that there was a blind spot close to the HMD. 

    Here's a guy playing In Death on the Rift-S



    I think you are missing the whole point here which is, it's immersive breaking using a bow in this way. I couldn't use the bow like that in my games without thinking this sucks and is immersive breaking. You don't even aim with a bow like that in real life. I would have difficulty at first finding the invisible aim spot he has created for himself in that video. Another things he's doing is using the bow fast and tilted so he doesn't lose tracking.

    This is like telling someone to use an XBox or Playstation controller tilted all the time because it doesn't work flat out in front of you. It's just uncomfortable and doesn't feel right. When I hold something it has to feel comfortable and trying to adjust to something other then my natural position just makes it feel awkward.

    This link isn't working for me so can someone link a different one? I'd like to hear what he said. As for listing to YouTube reviews I won't be doing that again in a rush. I should have learned my lesson when Tested never mentioned godrays in their YouTube review of the Rift CV1.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/bsfgu0/closetoheadset_controller_tracking_is_being/
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,547 Valuable Player
    edited May 2019
    Carmack just acknowledged the issue and said Oculus is working on it:


    Then again, this issue is expected due to physical tracking limitations, and of course Carmack has known about it like forever ;)

    Source: 
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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,926 Valuable Player
    edited May 2019
    @RuneSR2 - I don't hold out much hope given they have had time to get this headset and software ready. Nobody told them to release these headsets now and nobody was even expecting Rift S. But why are they selling games like this on the store if they don't work properly?

    Shame really when the fix is quite straight forward. Just enable the external sensors for Rift S :D
  • EventlessHorizonEventlessHorizon Posts: 8
    NerveGear
    I use a Samsung Windows MIxed Reality head unit in addition to my rift (and now Rift S) and from experience with inside out tracking for a long time I can tell that this is likely an issue that will be fixed. The WMR headsets only have two cameras at the front and I am able to play bow and FPS games with RELATIVE ease.. the Rift S has a far superior amount of tracking where the WMR HMUs go blind (sides and over head) and are forced to software/accelerometer  tracking for controller location. When using bow games on the S it feels like they are having an optimization issue with the tracking software. I have confirmed that the HMU can see my off-hand at a full back bow pull without issue - the problem is that when you go back that far it appears to start to enable off-camera tracking, and even though it's tracking you fine, the second you go to do something important like press the trigger it lags for about a second and THEN performs it. This is probably a double check on hand location prior to triggering the respective action - it's SUPER annoying... nothing like having your arrow fire a second after you press the trigger.. but for now I find if you adjust just a little bit you can draw just fine without hitting that analysis paralysis stutter spot. Given the head unit can see you though even full back I am sure they will be able to fix that issue with just a software update. Guns are the same deal, push out a tiny bit more than you are used to and you should be fine until they optimize the cross-eyed (super close) tracking. 
  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,859 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:
    I think you are missing the whole point here which is, it's immersive breaking using a bow in this way. 
    I'm not trying to argue with you. It's the only Rift-S video I found with someone playing In Death. You said it was "unplayable." I believed you but here I find someone playing it. Now you're saying it's "immersion breaking." That's very different from "unplayable." 

    Just take a deep breath and just be more accurate in your descriptions. 

    I tried Skyrim. The bow was the first thing I tried. I shot a few arrows without issue. 

    I'm not denying there is a problem. I don't have Pavlov, Onward or In Depth. I just want to know the extent of the problem too since I'm interested in playing Pavlov and I do like FPS game. 

    I did try the scoped weapons in Fallout 4 VR and I had no problem. 

    Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just trying to gather and present all the facts to get an accurate picture of the extent of the issue. There is certainly an issue. 
    i7 6700k 2080ti   Rift-S, Index
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,547 Valuable Player
    edited May 2019
    RedRizla said:
    @RuneSR2 - I don't hold out much hope given they have had time to get these headset and software ready. Nobody told them to release these headsets now and nobody was even expecting Rift S. But why are they selling games like this on the store if they don't work properly?

    Personally I think CV1 was too expensive, I'm guessing that Oculus did try to reduce costs by changing manufacturing methods and maybe lowering QA (all the posts about glue inside the lenses the last year on Reddit). I can't help thinking that much/most about Rift S is about economy. Of course Oculus needs to make money for investors - no business can survive in the long run without profits.
    The Rift-S LCD is better res, but I also think LCD now is cheaper than OLED, and getting rid of external sensors probably results in very big savings (at least in materials) for Oculus. Some (many) had problems with the CV1 headphones (right headphone not working or cutting out, Palmer to the rescue or not... etc.), piped audio should fix that and is probably much cheaper too. New Touch seems lower quality according to several users reviews, and Cyber already broke his - could of course be a coincidence, but it matches the low quality reports. 
    And no bundled games, no microfiber cloth and no stickers. Everything is cut down to the bare essentials. 
    I don't think Oculus can fix tracking or rare incompatibility issues with all games - I suspect they've QA'd the top titles, remaining titles and SteamVR may be hit and miss for now. 2c.   
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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,926 Valuable Player
    edited May 2019
    MowTin said:
    RedRizla said:
    I think you are missing the whole point here which is, it's immersive breaking using a bow in this way. 
    I'm not trying to argue with you. It's the only Rift-S video I found with someone playing In Death. You said it was "unplayable." I believed you but here I find someone playing it. Now you're saying it's "immersion breaking." That's very different from "unplayable." 

    Just take a deep breath and just be more accurate in your descriptions. 

    I tried Skyrim. The bow was the first thing I tried. I shot a few arrows without issue. 

    I'm not denying there is a problem. I don't have Pavlov, Onward or In Depth. I just want to know the extent of the problem too since I'm interested in playing Pavlov and I do like FPS game. 

    I did try the scoped weapons in Fallout 4 VR and I had no problem. 

    Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just trying to gather and present all the facts to get an accurate picture of the extent of the issue. There is certainly an issue. 

    @MowTin - How accurate do you want me to be when I've already being as accurate as I can be with my description? I've taken a deep breath now, so now let me ask you a question and try and sum this up again.

    I don't know if you use a console, but lets just say you did as an example. If I told you that the XBox controller only worked when you held it tilted instead of flat out in front of you. Would you have any complaints about that or would you just say it's fine because the games are still playable?

    I myself would find it not only uncomfortable holding an XBox controller like that, but I would also find games unplayable due to me having to hold it like that. I find it even worse using touch controllers in a way that doesn't mirror how I would hold something in real life. 

    I hope Oculus do enable sensors or something happens to fix this because it will allow me to skip purchasing the Valve index if they do. I like my FPS and no compromise like holding something different can be made.

    Here's an example of holding a rifle in an incorrect way all be it an exaggerated on :p




  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,973 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:
    @RuneSR2 - I don't hold out much hope given they have had time to get these headset and software ready. Nobody told them to release these headsets now and nobody was even expecting Rift S. But why are they selling games like this on the store if they don't work properly?
    ....

    Shame they did not come to the VR community and ask them to do a test of the Rift-S with the titles they proposed to release - this community would have been more than willing to help in an effort to help promote and offer the best experience on the tech they support!
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,853 Valuable Player
    I walked in to the Microsoft Store recently, and they hadn't finished setting up the Rift-S for demo. But they did let me wear it just to test out the comfort level.

    I almost bought the damn thing right then and there! Wow, Rift-S is easily the most comfortable VR HMD I've worn to-date. Of all the Oculus HMD's and the Vive. The weight distribution is perfect, and there is no "pressing against the face."

    I have read just about everywhere that the visual improvements are very notable and well worth the upgrade. Now I just need to see how Oculus handles addressing the "close to camera" tracking (Thank you, Carmack!!) and I'll be purchasing this HMD.
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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,926 Valuable Player
    edited May 2019
    @Zenbane - The headset is super comfy and I hope they stick with this design going forward. The lenses and the display are also great, but the tracking needs to be fixed. I'm even unable to play games like Creed now because I can't put my gloves up to my face.

    It's all well and good people saying you can now pick things up of the floor, but I'd much prefer to fire a bow properly and mirror how I would hold a rifle in real life. I've seen other people say there are problems with watches in Arizona sunshine and Arktika and none of this is good imo.

    I hope the game devs can fix it or Oculus do something about it.


  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,853 Valuable Player
    @RedRizla how is the lighting in your VR Room? Some stuff I read on reddit is that the tracking becomes an issue when people are playing next to windows or in darker rooms. The inside-out tracking relies heavily on rooms that are enclosed and well lit.
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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,926 Valuable Player
    edited May 2019
    @Zenbane - I'd say the lighting is good, but I'm getting some extension cables in a couple of weeks, so I can test it in a room that has more daylight in it. I would say this room is light enough, but I'll see if it makes a difference once I get my extension cables. 

    I think it's mainly down to the loss of tracking near to the headset though. The watch problem is down to one controller covering the other controller.
  • saami81saami81 Posts: 171
    Art3mis
    Zenbane said:
    @RedRizla how is the lighting in your VR Room? Some stuff I read on reddit is that the tracking becomes an issue when people are playing next to windows or in darker rooms. The inside-out tracking relies heavily on rooms that are enclosed and well lit.
    Ive been playing with monitor "light" only. Seems that its enough for tracking.

    One thing that i find weird about close-hmd tracking is that when i put on "passtrough mode" i can put controllers close to hmd and even touch it and still see that tracking ring. You would thing that tracking work as long as camera can see ring, but somehow that is not true.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,926 Valuable Player
    @saami81 - I think it's because what someone quoted Carmack as saying in this thread. Something about the tracking dots getting bigger as the controllers get closer to your headset.
  • Comic_Book_GuyComic_Book_Guy Posts: 1,199
    3Jane
    Zenbane said:
    I walked in to the Microsoft Store recently, and they hadn't finished setting up the Rift-S for demo. But they did let me wear it just to test out the comfort level.

    I almost bought the damn thing right then and there! Wow, Rift-S is easily the most comfortable VR HMD I've worn to-date. Of all the Oculus HMD's and the Vive. The weight distribution is perfect, and there is no "pressing against the face."

    I have read just about everywhere that the visual improvements are very notable and well worth the upgrade. Now I just need to see how Oculus handles addressing the "close to camera" tracking (Thank you, Carmack!!) and I'll be purchasing this HMD.
    You won't regret it ( unless you get a bad one?lol) Yes it is comfortable, even with the distance adjuster all the way in against your face, there's no pressing pressure, and it effectively increases the FOV. The clarity....oh man the clarity! It beats the OG Rift silly. I can't comment on close to camera tracking like with Onward or Pavlov and rifle /scope use, as those games aren't my cup of tea ( gimme  a fleshed out single player FPS! I hate PVP) but outside of that the tracking is fine.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,853 Valuable Player
    Thanks for all the feedback! I really love how both the pro's and con's (the positives and the pain-points) are presented in this thread. I'm bookmarking this discussion as I continue to track the progress towards my eventual investment in the Rift-S. Can't wait to bring it in to the home!
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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,274 Valuable Player
    or the index :)

  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,853 Valuable Player
    or the index

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  • Neo_33Neo_33 Posts: 11
    NerveGear
    I don't really have a problem with shooting arrows in Apex Construct with the Rift S.  Maybe its a software issue.  The Rift S is new with new tracking tech compared to the original Rift so maybe software updates to the games will fix this.  
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,274 Valuable Player
    Getting my coat...lol
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