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The Index thread (please keep to subject)

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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,576 Valuable Player
    edited July 2019
    I'm probably going to re-buy one and hope the replacement has less glare. I've seen on reddit that Valve sent them replacements and it had less for them. I'll probably wait a few weeks and let the old stock clear out. Sucks though with Valve selling them instantly though...there goes my profits for selling the next one!
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 4,023 Valuable Player
    edited July 2019
    The glare was the second thing I noticed after the v.grey colour of Steam VR the dark room with the white circular lines, but I also noticed getting the fit right makes quite a difference. Once in-game though (FO4VR/Defector) the glare isn't such an issue depending on light on dark backgrounds. So this will be game dependant.   It's about 33 degrees C in my room right now, so not comfortable playing VR at the moment. Will have more thoughts when it's cooler tomorrow. So far though, really nice visual quality. Good colours and sharp image. FOV is certainly more oval than other headsets. Controllers will take some time getting used to. Audio is very good as well. Working well with a solitary V1 basestation so far. And before anyone comments the leopard print is my missus responsibility.  :p






    System Specs: RTX 2080 ti , i9 9900K CPU, 16 GB DDR 4 RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,576 Valuable Player
    The glare was the second thing I noticed after the v.grey colour of Steam VR the dark room with the white circular lines, but I also noticed getting the fit right makes quite a difference. Once in-game though (FO4VR/Defector) the glare isn't such an issue depending on light on dark backgrounds. So this will be game dependant.   It's about 33 degrees C in my room right now, so not comfortable playing VR at the moment. Will have more thoughts when it's cooler tomorrow. So far though, really nice visual quality. Good colours and sharp image. FOV is certainly more oval than other headsets. Controllers will take some time getting used to. Audio is very good as well. Working well with a solitary V1 basestation so far. And before anyone comments the leopard print is my missus responsibility.  :p




    Ah sweet, I haven't seen the individual packaging. Not as grandiose as the total kit but still pretty cool. 
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 4,023 Valuable Player
    edited July 2019
    In Virtual Desktop now. It was very hard to get the right spot on my head. Lots of blur, but once you get the right spot is very nice. Black looks better here than Steam VR and I'm typing this with ease. Text readability at screen size 130% distance 1.19 is very good. Whilst the headset is quite heavy, it feels much more comfortable than the Oculus Quest that's for sure.  Just watched a Youtube video using VD looks good and 4K playback looks very good as well.  Just played a round of Fantasy Strike using VD 2D screen in the headset. Looks colourful and the smooth operation is nice. It's a colourful fighting game with simple 2.5D graphics will have to try another more visually intensive game when it's cooler. So far not bad at all for desktop working. Is it as good as the Reverb, maybe not, but still very good. Will have to compare with the Quest.





    System Specs: RTX 2080 ti , i9 9900K CPU, 16 GB DDR 4 RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 6,735 Volunteer Moderator
    edited July 2019
    Comparison to the Reverb @Shadowmask72 ? I have one on order (index) and may take the plunge. Need some sim testing from ya though :)
    A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.

  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,939 Valuable Player
    @Techy111 - If you are getting a VR headset just for Sims then I would wait on the HP reverb if I was you. All the other headsets are mainly used to play lots of different games, so it's a waste of money if your not going to use it for other games IMO. It's also not a big jump in resolution from Rift S, so I imagine it to be just slightly better then Rift S.
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 4,023 Valuable Player
    Very difficult to accurately judge without them side-by-side. But from memory the Reverb had better visible resolution but a narrower FOV and I have to say the extra Hz does make things feel smoother on the Index. I just played some Elite D and text readability is v.good, not too much glare either and distant objects can be seen relatively clearly. However, movement feels very smooth. I think the reverb will be a one trick pony resolution above all else where at least the Index covers more than one base. In your case Techy I would get an index play with it, and see if you like the visual upgrade and smoothness then decide if that's worth more than a bump in resolution. 


    System Specs: RTX 2080 ti , i9 9900K CPU, 16 GB DDR 4 RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,939 Valuable Player
    @Shadowmask72 - Are you still getting a HP Reverb if they sort out the problems? I want the HP Reverb for some sims and another headset for other games.
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 4,023 Valuable Player
    edited July 2019
    Just played some skyrim and it's very hard to say how much clearer the Reverb is to be honest which can only mean they are closer than one imagines. Up-close detail is superb on the  index to the point where it's much better than the Pimax 8K and CV1 and of course better than Quest streaming by quite a large margin. The FOV is quite nice as well. I can see now why some people the Index grew on them over time. I'll try PCARS 2 and if the distance details look good then I would start to believe the index is a good alternative to Reverb.  Again, in Skyrim the smooth locomotion is pretty awesome. You notice right away. Obviously I am a 2080Ti i9 9900K user here which helps a lot. It genuinely feels like Xmas morning here right now around 35 years ago (quite a bit warmer though). Oh and yes I notice the headset getting warm/hot.

    @RedRizla tough call as the more I play with the Index the less-likely.


    System Specs: RTX 2080 ti , i9 9900K CPU, 16 GB DDR 4 RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,859 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    I did see the "SDE-like vertical lines", but they didn't bother me, maybe they even worked making the image quality less pixelated. Next up 120 Hz and Revive... 

    (Sorry for any spelling errors - this was a long post, it's 1:30 AM, I should be asleep by now ;-)
    You cofirm that you see those vertical lines when the image moves?

    A lot of people have this issues. Some in one eye and some in both eyes. I have it slightly more in one eye than the other. If you exchange the Index your replacement will have the same issue. 

    I think I'm going to refund. The Index has great sound, better FOV but the SDE is greater in the Index because of this issue. But it's a trade off. The Index has slightly better clarity and much better FOV than the Rift but it has more SDE.

    Also, I prefer the Rift-S tracking. The inside out tracking makes it so I can even go under my desk to pick something up. With cameras or sensors there is always some way where my chair or furniture blocks the sensors. 

    It doesn't make sense for me to spend $1k for more SDE. 

    I'll give it a bit more time before I make up my mind. I'm really disappointed though. 
    i7 6700k 2080ti   Rift-S, Index
  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,859 Valuable Player
    Techy111 said:
    Any noticeable graphic improvement in flight sims if you have any to hand mate ?
    I tried IL-2. The FOV increase really benefits flight sims and racing sims. In terms of clarity it's not better than the Rift-S and I think the Rift-S colors are more vibrant.

    Usually, IL-2 is so demanding that on the Rift-S it can't hit a stable 80fps. So I get 40 fps. On the Index I set it to 120Hz and was getting 60fps. So that's a huge framerate increase for IL-2 for me. But too bad I'm having this SDE issue. 
    i7 6700k 2080ti   Rift-S, Index
  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,859 Valuable Player
    @MowTin

    I don’t see any SDE lines on my HMD. What global resolution you using? I’m set at around 2700 or around 148% on the SteamVR slider.

    I have seen a difference in performance when using the external cameras using different USB sockets. But luckily my motherboard has USB 3.1 so I make sure I use that. 

    I’m pretty confident using my Index, everything just works. 
    I left everything at 100%. I'll try supersampling. 

    It could also be some mysterious display port issue. Switching displayports fixed my colorful static problem. Maybe a different port will fix this issue as well. I'll also try some different USB. 
    i7 6700k 2080ti   Rift-S, Index
  • EvileyesEvileyes Posts: 351
    Trinity
    MowTin I was right there with you on returning it. After more tweaking and testing different settings, I turned the corner and never looked back. I get what you're saying in regards to SDE, but once I get into game. It seems to fade out for me. I'm loving this HMD, my Vive Pro has been shelved. I have to say though, wireless coupled with the comfort and clarity of the Vive Pro (its like your pillow put you into a headlock)  I think the difference is the 120hz its so close though, its annoying. Whatever the case may be, I use the Index more so, I think that speaks volumes. I will not get rid of my Pro just yet though.
    i7 X5960 @ 4200Mhz, 16GB ram, EVGA 2080 ti FTW
    Need a Tesla? Here is a free 1000 miles in supercharging!
    https://ts.la/mark56706
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,939 Valuable Player
    edited July 2019
    MowTin said:
    Techy111 said:
    Any noticeable graphic improvement in flight sims if you have any to hand mate ?
    I tried IL-2. The FOV increase really benefits flight sims and racing sims. In terms of clarity it's not better than the Rift-S and I think the Rift-S colors are more vibrant.

    Usually, IL-2 is so demanding that on the Rift-S it can't hit a stable 80fps. So I get 40 fps. On the Index I set it to 120Hz and was getting 60fps. So that's a huge framerate increase for IL-2 for me. But too bad I'm having this SDE issue. 

     How can you be getting 60fps at 120Hz on the Valve index and only getting 40fps on Rift S, which is a lower resolution headset running at 80Hz?
  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,859 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:

     How can you be getting 60fps at 120Hz on the Valve index and only getting 40fps on Rift S, which is a lower resolution headset running at 80Hz?
    If you're on the Rift-S and your app is too demanding to hit the 80 fps. ASW will sample every other frame...40 frames and guess on the in between 40 frames. 

    Since Index is running at 120Hz...it's trying to deliver 120 fps. If your app can't make it, it will sample 60 frames and guess the other 60. 

    Anyone feel free to correct me. But when my VR apps can't hit the 80 fps rate, it drops to 40 fps. In the CV1 the target was 90 fps and the drop was to 45fps. With the Index, if I target 120fps, I get dropped to 60 fps. 

    With IL-2 it really can only hit around 60 fps in my PC. The game is CPU limited. I need to upgrade to a i7 8700k or 9900k.
    i7 6700k 2080ti   Rift-S, Index
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,599 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:
    MowTin said:
    Techy111 said:
    Any noticeable graphic improvement in flight sims if you have any to hand mate ?
    I tried IL-2. The FOV increase really benefits flight sims and racing sims. In terms of clarity it's not better than the Rift-S and I think the Rift-S colors are more vibrant.

    Usually, IL-2 is so demanding that on the Rift-S it can't hit a stable 80fps. So I get 40 fps. On the Index I set it to 120Hz and was getting 60fps. So that's a huge framerate increase for IL-2 for me. But too bad I'm having this SDE issue. 

     How can you be getting 60fps at 120Hz on the Valve index and only getting 40fps on Rift S, which is a lower resolution headset running at 80Hz?
    Let's say his rig is able to do 65 fps, on the Rift-S this would translate into 40 fps asw 2.0, because you can't hit the 80 fps. On the Index you can't get the 120 fps, but you can acheive 60 fps x 2. 
    Using 144 Hz on the Index you may be able to switch between 72 and 144 fps. Let's say your rig can do 78 fps - using 90 Hz you'd get 45 fps x 2, while using Index 144 Hz you'd get 72 fps x 2, so higher hz may cause significant performance boosts depending on the situation. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,599 Valuable Player
    MowTin said:
    RedRizla said:

     How can you be getting 60fps at 120Hz on the Valve index and only getting 40fps on Rift S, which is a lower resolution headset running at 80Hz?
    If you're on the Rift-S and your app is too demanding to hit the 80 fps. ASW will sample every other frame...40 frames and guess on the in between 40 frames. 

    Since Index is running at 120Hz...it's trying to deliver 120 fps. If your app can't make it, it will sample 60 frames and guess the other 60. 

    Anyone feel free to correct me. But when my VR apps can't hit the 80 fps rate, it drops to 40 fps. In the CV1 the target was 90 fps and the drop was to 45fps. With the Index, if I target 120fps, I get dropped to 60 fps. 

    With IL-2 it really can only hit around 60 fps in my PC. The game is CPU limited. I need to upgrade to a i7 8700k or 9900k.
    I write too slow on my phone, lol ;)
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,599 Valuable Player
    Btw, always using 144 Hz and maybe more or less limiting fps to 2 x 72 in all demanding games may not sound bad, after all Quest is 72 hz. But normally 72 x 2 will cause some "ghosting" effect due to rendering each image twice, compared to the ultra-clear 144 hz. And 90 fps x 1 may therefore provide much better image quality than 72 x 2 - which may be something to consider. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,859 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    Btw, always using 144 Hz and maybe more or less limiting fps to 2 x 72 in all demanding games may not sound bad, after all Quest is 72 hz. But normally 72 x 2 will cause some "ghosting" effect due to rendering each image twice, compared to the ultra-clear 144 hz. And 90 fps x 1 may therefore provide much better image quality than 72 x 2 - which may be something to consider. 
    Interesting. And 144 Herz is so fast that much changes from one frame to the next. I'll test playing everything at 144. 
    i7 6700k 2080ti   Rift-S, Index
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,599 Valuable Player
    MowTin said:
    RuneSR2 said:
    I did see the "SDE-like vertical lines", but they didn't bother me, maybe they even worked making the image quality less pixelated. Next up 120 Hz and Revive... 

    (Sorry for any spelling errors - this was a long post, it's 1:30 AM, I should be asleep by now ;-)
    You cofirm that you see those vertical lines when the image moves?

    A lot of people have this issues. Some in one eye and some in both eyes. I have it slightly more in one eye than the other. If you exchange the Index your replacement will have the same issue. 

    I think I'm going to refund. The Index has great sound, better FOV but the SDE is greater in the Index because of this issue. But it's a trade off. The Index has slightly better clarity and much better FOV than the Rift but it has more SDE.

    Also, I prefer the Rift-S tracking. The inside out tracking makes it so I can even go under my desk to pick something up. With cameras or sensors there is always some way where my chair or furniture blocks the sensors. 

    It doesn't make sense for me to spend $1k for more SDE. 

    I'll give it a bit more time before I make up my mind. I'm really disappointed though. 
    Maybe it's not the same thing, the lines I see are extremely faint, not sure the average vr user would ever notice them. If it's the same thing then I'm not bothered by it - at least not for now. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 4,023 Valuable Player
    I can confirm PCARS 2 is quite comparable to the Reverb in terms of visuals. Again 120Hz wins again though in terms of overall smoothness. Close-up details are lovely, can read all of the text without squinting. 

    What are these lines you speak of, any specific place to spot them?


    System Specs: RTX 2080 ti , i9 9900K CPU, 16 GB DDR 4 RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,599 Valuable Player
    Just played some skyrim and it's very hard to say how much clearer the Reverb is to be honest which can only mean they are closer than one imagines. Up-close detail is superb on the  index to the point where it's much better than the Pimax 8K and CV1 and of course better than Quest streaming by quite a large margin. The FOV is quite nice as well. I can see now why some people the Index grew on them over time. I'll try PCARS 2 and if the distance details look good then I would start to believe the index is a good alternative to Reverb.  Again, in Skyrim the smooth locomotion is pretty awesome. You notice right away. Obviously I am a 2080Ti i9 9900K user here which helps a lot. It genuinely feels like Xmas morning here right now around 35 years ago (quite a bit warmer though). Oh and yes I notice the headset getting warm/hot.

    @RedRizla tough call as the more I play with the Index the less-likely.
    Thanks for the intensive testing, missus must be out or very understanding ;) Seems like we're on the same page with the Index, thus it's not perfect, but probably the best VR solution at the moment. 

    Now we just need HLVR, lol.

    Ps. Leopard print is extremely interesting, can you zoom out a bit?
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,599 Valuable Player
    edited July 2019
    I can confirm PCARS 2 is quite comparable to the Reverb in terms of visuals. Again 120Hz wins again though in terms of overall smoothness. Close-up details are lovely, can read all of the text without squinting. 

    What are these lines you speak of, any specific place to spot them?
    To me it looked like some sort of interlacing effect, like an old crt tv, only noticed it once or twice when walking on the tiles in SteamVR Home (90 hz), maybe checking the sky in the default home. Compared to the massive SDE in CV1 it was nothing.
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • EvileyesEvileyes Posts: 351
    Trinity
    I would also like to state, Ive had zero luck with 144hz.. Basically when I switch to that setting, the overall visuals get blurry, and what I mean by that is, menus and the overall visuals blur up some.  When I switch back to 120hz, it all becomes clear.
    i7 X5960 @ 4200Mhz, 16GB ram, EVGA 2080 ti FTW
    Need a Tesla? Here is a free 1000 miles in supercharging!
    https://ts.la/mark56706
  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,859 Valuable Player
    edited July 2019


    This is what the issue looks like for me. It's more pronounced in one eye than the other. In the other eye it's so faint you can barely notice it. 

    One user had a friend who said he didn't have the issue but when he went to test his friend's index, he saw it. Some people don't notice it. 

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/c8ehs1/problem_with_index_vertical_lines/

    Another picture from the thread...


    i7 6700k 2080ti   Rift-S, Index
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,297 Valuable Player
    Bloody hell, that looks AWFUL :o
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,576 Valuable Player
    edited July 2019
    Wow...I never saw anything like that and I analyzed every millimeter of my screen while playing. It must have been too subtle for me to see if it was there. It says turning the head makes it visible in that thread, how so? If you look left or right you can see it while the head is in motion? 
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 4,023 Valuable Player
    Don't see that on mine at all looks like a defective unit imo.


    System Specs: RTX 2080 ti , i9 9900K CPU, 16 GB DDR 4 RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,576 Valuable Player
    Don't see that on mine at all looks like a defective unit imo.
    Yea that's what I'm thinking. This thing sure seems to have a lot of defective units. 
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 4,023 Valuable Player
    Defective units are expected for most electronic goods and what happens is you get to see all of the people with them online. What you don't see is many people posting they don't have a defective unit, so it seems like a lot but perhaps isn't in the grand scheme. 


    System Specs: RTX 2080 ti , i9 9900K CPU, 16 GB DDR 4 RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
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