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The Index thread (please keep to subject)

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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,542 Valuable Player
    edited January 18
    Valve is currently modifying SteamVR to a great extend. Making column correction automatic is an awesome move - to a degree where I'm close to considering the columns a non-issue. I've never seen Boneworks looking this great before - really close to perfect (within limits of the lenses and lcd tech). 
    Also you can now select different kinds of motion smoothing in games individually and on the fly. Earlier your preferences in this regard affected all games and apps - and required a restart of SteamVR, but now you can change motion smoothing settings individually for games and apps - and no restart is needed. This is close to the equivalent of having Oculus Tray Tool implemented in Dash. 
    In that respect, Valve is far beyond Oculus, because you'll need external programs to setup Rift hmds similarly, while it all now is integrated in SteamVR - even offering settings beyond what's available for the Rifts. 
    The backside is that SteamVR has been through many changes, and yesterday I observed some stuttering in Boneworks I never seen before. So either Boneworks was silently updated without me noticing, or the new SteamVR 1.9.16 did something to cause the issue. But I need to check it more thoroughly - and maybe it's time to update my Nvidia driver 417 to 441... 
    One thing is that you can choose between different kinds of reprojection settings - I think there's a standard one and a legacy one. Changing it from standard to legacy made Boneworks perform perfectly again - unfortunately only for a few minutes before some serious projection errors appeared. It easily gets complicated, and these are the first real software issues I've noticed since I got the Index. I'll check later if the problems persist, if yes it's time for 441.87  B)

    Then again, the issue seems only to affect Boneworks, and of course there are things to consider before making changes to an otherwise perfectly working rig, lol


    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,971 Valuable Player
    ....
    He’s hit a brick wall and his credibility for credible sources has been shot to pieces. The way he was laughing in his last video was embarrassing. He stated several times L4D VR was a thing. He knows people are laughing at him and he's trying to out laugh them for believing L4D VR was real, it’s so twisted. 

    To force Valve into making a statement goes to show how deep his misinformation has penetrated the VR community. Valve outed him in spectacular fashion. 

    He should now close his site down and get a proper job. He’s invested so much of his life making himself believe he’s a Valve insider when he’s really closer to the general public knowing nothing at all.

    Sadly it looks like the new sources he though he had attracted were in fact the means in which Valve could play him (Gabe never forgets!)

    I feel sorry that he has been placed in this position - especially as he is so passionate about a operation who really do not repay the affection.

    As Valve are cultivating their on new source of new interchange through the new SteamVR portal, I think he may find that he has been played to make way for a different means of communication - shame. 


    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,852 Valuable Player
    edited January 18

    A new article published today about the Valve Index's reliability issues:
    all roses have thorns, and it seems that the Index may have some problems with its manufacturing. According to some rumors, the production initially started in the US, but when the demand got too big, Valve started manufacturing the headsets and controllers via third parties in China. This has been good to ramp up the production, but it seems having been a bad move from a reliability side.

    Thanks to my friend (and VR ergonomics expert) Rob Cole, I discovered that on Reddit there are tons of complaints about the Valve Index, with many people having had to return the controllers, the headsets and the base stations. We have to praise the fact that usually Valve customer service is doing a great job in answering all the requests, but the RMA (Return Merchandise Authorization) procedure is not always pleasant for the users.

    https://skarredghost.com/2020/01/18/valve-index-reliability-issues-rma/


    The Knuckles have issues beyond mere Clickgate all these months later, adding drifting and haptics to the list.

    Some rather revealing user comments on the article depicting the growing frustration.


    “Yep, I got the exact same problem, if I move my left joystick left or right it keeps moving the character even after I take my finger off the stick. It happens with every game and it’s a clear design flaw.

    Add to that the non-clicking and loose cover for the right controller, of course.

    There’s no defending Valve here, it’s a design defect that I can’t believe went into the final design after so many years of testing.”


    “Got the index in August and I’ve been having some minor issues with no real consequences, until last week I got pretty serious controller drift every time I flick the right controller down at all. Deadzone changes don’t change anything and even if they did it wouldn’t be acceptable. “


    “It really isn’t acceptable and I want to make sure I have them fixes/new ones when Alyx releases. If I RMA them the week after new years, when do you think I’ll send them in, and when will I get controllers back?”


    “Same exact scenario. Second set lasted maybe 10 days. Amazing they are still pushing out this garbage.”


    “One of the replacements I received has tracking glitches when any moderately intense haptics kick in. Has anyone else experienced this? For example, when firing a weapon in Space Pirate Trainer, the controller becomes floaty and will sometimes vanish momentarily. In the vrserver log, there are a number of “unlikely gravity”, “IMU misalignment” and “IMU related panic” entries that correspond to those events.

    My other controller doesn’t have this problem but the haptics on that feel weaker, they’re also louder and have a different tone to them. Guess I need to get back in touch with support.”


    “Well i’m glad you managed to get new slightly less broken £260 controllers. meanwhile i cant get so much as a reply from support and the second set they sent me where completely unusable just like the first.”


    “First pair was wave 1 pre order. -Drifting after 1 month and had joystick clicking issue

    2nd pair had a trackpad sensor issue after 2 weeks

    Current pair (3rd) – 0 clicking issues but developed drifting after 2 months”


    “What am I supposed to do?

    My right index controller has been at the warehouse for 16 days now ands steam support has been ignoring me since the 30th November.

    I have no idea if /when I’m getting a replacement controller.

    I am receiving no response.”


    I don't think that there is any surprise that the controller issue is getting worse; as there were clear indications that Valve was treating manufacturing of their hardware rather poorly. If we look back when Clickgate started, Valve gave everyone a clear image of how they treated the situation when they publicly said that it was "by design." Any time a company tries to convince you that the problem you are experiencing isn't really a problem, then you know that chances are extremely high you'll end up experiencing... more problems with their products.

    Although to be fair to Valve, they aren't the only ones who may have taken too big a risk my moving their manufacturing to an outsourced company in China.  *coughoculuscough*

    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,542 Valuable Player
    edited January 18
    RuneSR2 said:
    I'll check later if the problems persist, if yes it's time for 441.87  B)

    I did end up installing 441.87 - and quite amazingly that actually fixed all problems with SteamVR 1.9.16. Does make sense that 1.9.16 (+hotfix) may be highly adjusted to 441.87, because 441.87 contains VRSS support for 20 VR games and thus seems highly focused on VR. In short, 1.9.16 may break support for older drivers in some games - and there're several users having performance problems with 1.9.16 according to discussions on Steam.  
    Using 441.87 suddenly I got sound and music back in Aircar - and I got solid 90 fps in Boneworks res 200% again (with 2xMSAA and Shadows maxed). 

    That was awesome - I'm still waiting for the mid-level checkpoint save patch in Boneworks and hadn't played the game a lot for weeks. I had nearly forgotten how extremely detailed Boneworks can be when it comes to graphics, but also the incredible presence - it's the one game where Index feels like a quantum leap from CV1. 

    Also tried Garden by the Sea - which has changed to winter (you can reach out and catch snowflakes in your hand) - and I did not notice any vertical lcd columns. 

    I was thinking that today - this very evening - the Index reached a level which is really close to perfection. Image quality with automatic column correction is fantastic, my controllers work flawlessly including finger tracking (right controller has been working flawlessly since I got it in July) - and same goes for the base stations, the hmd and Revive. 

    Might be a great time to get the Index - although that might be very difficult due to the demand. The only thing I'd like to see more is being able to change refresh rate on the fly. Right now you still have to set refresh rates for all games - you cannot set Pistol Whip to 120 Hz and Boneworks to 90 Hz. And of course you still need CV1 for the very dark games - and for the very demanding games like Stormland and Asgard's Wrath, which profit from temporal antialiasing.  
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,852 Valuable Player
    edited January 18

    I love my Index. I really do. I had it for about a month and a half now, and the Index accounts for roughly half of my hours spent in VR these days. The other half is split between Rift S and the Quest (mostly Quest - my Rift S is pretty much a display model now)

    Sounds like you have a fantastic variety! There seems to be more and more VR enthusiasts with multiple leading headsets these days. Really great to see!

    So yeah - I love my Index, and so as long as I don't develop any of the issues others are reporting, I'll be happy I have one.
    But I'd never, ever recommend anyone to get one. It's just simply not worth a grand, and that's not even counting all of the issues that plague it.


    It is a rare for someone to spend so much on a product yet be so direct/blunt in letting others know that they should probably avoid it. I'm still on my Rift CV1 (since 2016), and every so often I get tempted to "give in" and upgrade to one of the new HMD's (Index, Rift-S, HP Reverb). But with all the sacrifices one must make with these new HMD's, especially when coupled with the high prices, I just can't bring myself to hand over my credit card.

    I'm really hoping to see either an upgraded Quest or Rift-S announced by the end of this year. I need to upgrade soon! But I don't want to deal with unnecessary product defect issues, or sub-par incremental enhancements, considering how great the Rift CV1 has been since launch. I'm craving a true 2nd Gen VR HMD.

    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 1,730 Valuable Player
    After playing with a number of new VR headsets over the past 10-11 months ( Rift S, Cosmos, and Vive Pro) I have come to the conclusion that the best VR thing anyone with a cv1 can do is to upgrade their gaming PC.

    Not only will your cv1 perform much better (like 2.0 SS on almost everything), you will be in a good position to enjoy Gen2 headsets when they actually come out (2021-2022?).

    While I have enjoyed trying new VR headsets ( well maybe not the Cosmos so much, lol!), the best thing I’ve was to upgrade my AW 17r4 gaming laptop to a proper gaming desktop (i9 9000k water cooled, gtx1080ti, 32Gb 3000 ram, 1Tb ssd, 4Tb hdd).

    Anyway, just my $0.02 worth.

    Custom built gaming desktop; i9 9900k (water cooled) oc to 5ghz, gtx 1080 ti (from my old AGA), 32 gb 3000hz ram, 1 tb ssd, 4 tb hdd.  Asus  ROG Maximus xi hero wifi mb, StarTech 4 port/4 controller sata powered usb3.0 pcie card, Asus VG248QE 1080p 144hz gaming monitor, Oculus Rift cv1 w/2x sensors, Vive Pro, Vive Cosmos, Vive Wireless.

  • Comrade_IvanComrade_Ivan Posts: 87
    Hiro Protagonist
    Zenbane said:

    It is a rare for someone to spend so much on a product yet be so direct/blunt in letting others know that they should probably avoid it. 

    Totally agree. I haven't come across anyone else that feels the same way about their headset either. Most people either love it or hate it.

    But then I also quit driving cars and now only ride motorcycles.

    Bear with me while I explain.

    After a while, for some drivers, the focus shifts away from getting from A to B and to the experience of driving an ungodly beast whose sole purpose is to push the Earth beneath it with enough gusto to make Newton rewrite his laws of motion.

    In fact, as an avid motorcycle rider, I'm aware that I can get a brand new beast of a bike, and, with a little tinkering, bring it to a Lamborghini level of performance for a fraction of the price.

    As someone who owned a Daydream HMD, a Gear VR, CV1, Rift S, Quest, and now an Index, I can look at the landscape and see different headsets for what they are. They're ultimately just different types of vehicles.

    I consider Index to be like a Lamborghini Countach - amazing piece of tech designed to convert gasoline into adventure... fraught with mind-boggling design flaws (there are many:  ).

    Keeping in spirit of such analogy, Oculus Quest would be somewhat akin to a Suzuki Hayabusa - a simpler, cheaper 2-wheeled beast which, with some know-how, can serve to turn an enthusiast rider into a Tomahawk Cruise Missile with a speed-induced boner.

    I love my Index as much as I imagine any Lamborghini owner loves their beast (until the window in said Lamborghini stops only halfway down and they go "wtf, I paid all that money for this???" - seriously, watch the video linked above)

    But I doubt any Lamborghini owner would truly recommend a Countach to anyone who is simply looking for an amazing ride. At least not after riding a tricked-out Hyabusa.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,542 Valuable Player
    edited January 19
    Comrade_Ivan said:

    Noisy base stations: in addition to unwieldy amount of cables that external base stations bring to table, they are anything but quiet (the stations, that is - my cables so far haven't made a peep =P). Here is a video I made to illustrate just how noisy mine get:


    Base stations are the loudest when being turned on - and the motor starts, then they should go down in speed and be quiet. Personally I love the sound of base stations turning on - sounds like you're starting the VR engine and getting ready to fly  B)
    Hard to say if yours are louder than normal, but after turning them on I really don't hear mine - but they are each about 1.5 meters away. Some have found that anti-vibration mounting is extremely important to minimize noise. This is how my base stations sound when standing very close to them - they aren't totally silent, but it in no way bothers me:


    I have one placed on a table and the other one on top of a large mirror - just standing on the feet provided by Valve.

    Funny that you don't mention the columns - which is the one thing annoying me the most - and the lack of bass compared to CV1 speakers. Glare is more intense, but I don't see it in games like Boneworks and Pistol Whip - but then again, I would not play dark and glare-prone games using the Index anyway - such games deserve an oled panel.

    If 1k is a huge amount of money compared to a person's budget, I'd clearly recommend Rift-S too - or actually getting a used CV1 like Tom said, right now Index is awesome for bright games where you don't see any glare, SDE and the colors really pop - and the large fov - but CV1 will play all your games, not just the bright ones ;)
    Index is a deluxe hmd - trying Boneworks in solid 90 fps res 200% should convince the most - but there's really just one game like Boneworks available, might be like that until Alyx arrives. 

    BTW, Valve just increased specs for Alyx - these are now the minimum requirements:

      MINIMUM:
      • OS: Windows 10
      • Processor: Core i5-7500 / Ryzen 5 1600
      • Memory: 12 GB RAM
      • Graphics: GTX 1060 / RX 580 - 6GB VRAM

    An important restriction, it requires a much faster rig to drive the Index than the CV1 (or Rift-S) due to higher res and no ASW 2.0. I would not be surprised if recommended specs for Alyx would be a 1080 for CV1, while Index might need 1080 Ti/2080 or better - we'll see. This would put Alyx in the same boat as Asgard's Wrath and Stormland, which also recommend 1080 for the Rifts. Also being Source engine, ASW 2.0 probably won't help any with an Oculus hmd this time - I doubt Valve will support native Oculus drivers... 

    I can highly recommend Lucky's Tale Index res 200% - and remember til dial-in the lenses - it's basically glare-free - I think it's the best platformer on the planet, but of course not everyone likes this genre... Have you tried Boneworks res 150-200%? First Contact Index res 200% in solid 90 fps also blew me away - like being there and seeing it for real for the very first time (large fov, no SDE, twice the CV1 res - and no glare due to being a bright app like Lucky's Tale).

    I don't think there're any better non-Oculus hmd out there than Index when it comes to Reviving games - for those with many Oculus games, and now that Carmack says lcd is the future, to me Index is the CV2 (awesome tracking, nearly 100% higher res, large fov, 120-144 Hz, IPD slider, and although the bass is weaker than CV1 the Index sound still is amazing). If Oculus had made the Index and sold it for 1k, I don't think many would say "hey, that's not a proper CV2"...   
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,852 Valuable Player
    edited January 20
    I love my Index as much as I imagine any Lamborghini owner loves their beast (until the window in said Lamborghini stops only halfway down and they go "wtf, I paid all that money for this???" - seriously, watch the video linked above)

    Fun analogy! Although considering all the issues with Index and its controllers:
    • Clickgate
    • Drifting
    • HMD Overheating
    • God Rays
    • Haptics
    The analogy would entail more than just a Lamborghini's windows stopping halfway down. It would be more like... if the power steering stopped working at random intervals, the brakes went out spontaneously, the engine overheats while driving, and the vehicle randomly shakes even when on a smooth road.
    :o

    I consider both the Rift-S and Valve Index to be "Gen 1.5" devices. Technically speaking, Index is a CV1 (the first Consumer Version of the Valve Index), and there is just too much confirmation by the global Index userbase across YouTube, Facebook, and Reddit that while a great product for enthusiasts with a large budget to spend on a hobby, VR itself is still waiting for its next true Gen 2 device.

    For anyone experiencing the Index's overheating issues, here's a good article on how to help:
    https://vrgear.com/news/how-to-stop-your-valve-index-from-overheating/

    A Kickstarter fan mod hits its goal:
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kyle-fredericks/chilldex


    I started this project as a response to being fed-up with the amount of sweat building up in the headset, literally after a few songs of beatsaber, sweat would be beading up near my forehead and getting in my eyes.  I was just overall unsatisfied with the level of heat in the headset.  I drew the line when I was making the headset damp playing moss which is a sit-down game.  With Halflife: Alyx around the corner, longer and longer play sessions are becoming the norm.

    The dude was sweating during Moss!
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  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 1,730 Valuable Player
    Actually my Vive Pro (McLaren Limited Version w/2.0 base stations/controllers) base stations are very quiet both during startup and while running.  I feel kinda ripped off since it would be nice if they actually sounded like a McLaren racing car during startup, lol!

    Does the Index have onboard Bluetooth to allow you to put your base stations into either standby or sleep mode like I can do with my Vive Pro w/Link Box and SteamVR device options?  Just asking, thanks.

    Custom built gaming desktop; i9 9900k (water cooled) oc to 5ghz, gtx 1080 ti (from my old AGA), 32 gb 3000hz ram, 1 tb ssd, 4 tb hdd.  Asus  ROG Maximus xi hero wifi mb, StarTech 4 port/4 controller sata powered usb3.0 pcie card, Asus VG248QE 1080p 144hz gaming monitor, Oculus Rift cv1 w/2x sensors, Vive Pro, Vive Cosmos, Vive Wireless.

  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,542 Valuable Player
    edited January 20
    Tried Aircar again last night and again no sound, but restarted it and sound was back - so this issue is probably not Nvidia driver related, but related to Aircar and SteamVR 1.9.16. 
    Tried tons of games after upgrading my 1 year old 417 driver to the brand-new 441.87, but I really can't see any performance differences regarding both Index and CV1. Maybe Stormland felt slightly better, closer to 90 fps, but it's probably just me prone to the placebo effect. Used several 2D benchmarks, same performance (less than 1% difference). But Boneworks still works - getting the performance back in Boneworks is the only effect of upgrading from 417 to 441.87 I've found. Then again I'm using GTX, and 441.87 is primarily targeted against RTX. Still 441.87 contains many fixes for more recent games like Boneworks, Stormland and Asgard's Wrath, but apart from Boneworks I have not observed any benefits. In short, if you don't have problems with Index or CV1, and you're not already using 441 nor RTX, 441.87 is probably not worth the effort to upgrade. 

    Btw, another benefit of Index is that I've never experienced any fogging - which happens often using the CV1 - and this is although Index isn't hotter at all than the CV1, at least touching both CV1 and Index temps feel similar. I have not tested if 120-144 Hz increase power consumption though, I usually use 90 Hz. Have spent some time playing Space Pirate Trainer 120Hz res 200%, works perfectly - still Index did not at all feel hot. 
    Like the CV1, you can peek out under the nose of the Index probably ensuring similar ventilation. Temps in my VR gaming room are close to 68F all year (20C), maybe experiences will differ in Arizona and Australia, lol. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • Comrade_IvanComrade_Ivan Posts: 87
    Hiro Protagonist
    TomCgcmfc said:
    Does the Index have onboard Bluetooth to allow you to put your base stations into either standby or sleep mode 
    There's an option in settings to put Index base stations into standby mode automatically upon closing SteamVR (for some weird reason that setting is not turned on by default, so base stations just keep spinning)
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,542 Valuable Player
    edited January 20
    TomCgcmfc said:
    Does the Index have onboard Bluetooth to allow you to put your base stations into either standby or sleep mode 
    There's an option in settings to put Index base stations into standby mode automatically upon closing SteamVR (for some weird reason that setting is not turned on by default, so base stations just keep spinning)
    It uses Bluetooth - it's very important that it works, or you'll have the base stations turned on constantly (green light) instead of standby (blue light). Of course it's possible to turn them completely off by turning off the power. 
    I have both Index and base stations in standby when not in use - I never turn them completely off, love the oscillating/pulsating blue standby light from the base stations - like they're alive and sleeping/breathing. In standby mode they should be totally quiet.  

    I think the Bluetooth signal is emitted by the HMD to the base stations, not sure you need to have Bluetooth on your mainboard or otherwise enabled in Win10.
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 1,730 Valuable Player
    Thanks guys.  With my Vive Pro the Bluetooth is built into it's Link Box.  So when I go wireless and ditch the Link Box I lose the ability to change base station power settings.  They are either on or off.  The workaround is to keep the Link Box powered on and connected to a usb port (but not the DP) on your PC.  So, there is no BT on the headset itself, nor can it communicate with your PC's other BT's.  Seems to be a propriety thing.

    Actually, I'm not finding the Vive wireless all that useful with either my Cosmos or esp. my Vive Pro.  It's very CPU hungry so depending on the game/sim I seem to lose 10-25% performance.  It also seems to increase the Mura with my Vive Pro's oled's.  Not so much a problem with my Cosmos lcd's.  I mainly VR sitting/standing so the wireless is not all that useful to me anyway.  It was more of an experiment, which I'm still glad I've tried.  Maybe Gen2 headsets will include better wireless.  In the meantime I would not take too much credence in guys who poo-poo the fact that the Index does not have wireless because its still work in progress imho.
      

    Custom built gaming desktop; i9 9900k (water cooled) oc to 5ghz, gtx 1080 ti (from my old AGA), 32 gb 3000hz ram, 1 tb ssd, 4 tb hdd.  Asus  ROG Maximus xi hero wifi mb, StarTech 4 port/4 controller sata powered usb3.0 pcie card, Asus VG248QE 1080p 144hz gaming monitor, Oculus Rift cv1 w/2x sensors, Vive Pro, Vive Cosmos, Vive Wireless.

  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,542 Valuable Player
    edited January 20
    Gabe has mentioned that wireless is a priority for the Index, but that was several months ago and since then not much news about wireless.
    The Index cable is really high quality though - much thicker than CV1 - and it's much longer, 6 meters in total? (Valve: "5m tether, 1m breakaway trident connector." - I have not measured it) I notice the Index cable less than the CV1 cable when playing due to its length - but I never really had problems with any tether. Just like being on a spacewalk outside the ISS, I appreciate a safety line  B)

    Image result for astronaut safety line
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,542 Valuable Player
    edited January 21
    Had a great time playing Boneworks last night - I'm waiting for the mid-level save patch and have not played the game much since Christmas, but can't wait forever for the save patch. It does mean you may need to have at least 2 hours free when playing a level for the first time - in case you get stuck in a puzzle. 
    Even though some physics puzzles can be very frustrating, overall it's a long time since I enjoyed a game more, at least within its (first person shooter) genre. Somehow Boneworks reminds me of Half-Life 1, but not Half-Life 2. Maybe it's the desolate and depressing gray locations - the feeling of being truly alone in a very strange place - that gives this game an awesome and rather unique atmosphere. 

    I think the level "Runoff" gives a nice impression of the game and the puzzles, if someone wants to see what the game is about - this is a walkthrough and does contain spoilers (played using Index controllers):


    Using the sniper rifle is great fun in that level, and weapons generally feel extremely real in Boneworks. I took a pistol in each hand - Pistol Whip Style - and blasted through a larger crowd of opponents, totally awesome. Also lost my orientation completely in my VR room a few times - I haven't done that much since I played Lone Echo, lol. 

    Seems like the devs have gotten finger tracking to work close to perfectly, no more problems with the middle finger :blush: Also using 1.9.16 I have not had problems with finger tracking - but my hands may have just the right size for the sensors, who knows (btw, drumming the fingers along the handle will cause Index controllers to recalibrate in case of problems)... 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,542 Valuable Player
    edited January 21
    Some dude 3D printed this Index controller charge stand - does look nice, although I'd prefer more black-ish/dark colors:


    https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4114687
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,859 Valuable Player
    edited January 21
    RuneSR2 said:

    Yes, I think I got it back in late November (it's in a post somewhere in this thread I'm sure) - it took 3 weeks forth and back... 

    I also got the new taller thumbstick, but didn't notice it before today :blush:  

    It's still working perfectly - but now I'm worried about my right old controller  :D  

    EDIT - found it, page 41 in this thread - got it back Nov 20, so before everything sold out. 

    I have to RMA mine too but not because of the click issue. I had the issue but it wasn't a big deal for me. Now my left controller drifts very badly. I tried the controller deadzone adjustments and recalibration but nothing works. It has steadily gotten worse, now it's barely playable. 

    Again, the Rift controllers are just better. I keep accidentally grabbing things using the Index controllers. I'm sick of charging them and sometimes forgetting to charge them. With the Rift-S, I just swap rechargeable batteries. Tracking every finger adds nothing to games. It just makes the controllers more expensive and prone to failure. 
    i7 6700k 2080ti   Rift-S, Index
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,852 Valuable Player
    edited January 21
    MowTin said:
    Tracking every finger adds nothing to games

    Yeah this was my biggest concern. I remember @snowdog talked about this as well, in regards to how even in our every day lives we can live without the last 2 fingers (hence the reason Oculus Touch controllers work so well). Adding more fingers, or just adding more physicality, to VR isn't the answer. Going from tracking 3 fingers to 5 fingers is a huge step backwards. Just as going from room-scale to arena-scale is a major step backwards.

    We need to hurry and implement Brain-to-Computer interfacing!

    Once we can control interaction in a VR world, only then will we finally start to take advantage of VR's true potential. The only thing we have done up to this point is limit VR experiences by constraining everything to our physical capabilities. We have all the wrong terms in VR currently:
    • Sit down experiences
    • Stand up experiences
    • Hand Tracking
    • Finger Tracking
    • Room-Scale
    • Arena Scale
    • Full body tracking
    That is pure physical limitation and completely counter-intuitive to the endless possibilities Virtual Reality enables. It's like buying a sports car but only driving it "in and out" of your garage. We have not brought the power of the Mind in to VR yet. But we're getting closer!
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,542 Valuable Player
    edited January 21
    MowTin said:
    RuneSR2 said:

    Yes, I think I got it back in late November (it's in a post somewhere in this thread I'm sure) - it took 3 weeks forth and back... 

    I also got the new taller thumbstick, but didn't notice it before today :blush:  

    It's still working perfectly - but now I'm worried about my right old controller  :D  

    EDIT - found it, page 41 in this thread - got it back Nov 20, so before everything sold out. 

    I have to RMA mine too but not because of the click issue. I had the issue but it wasn't a big deal for me. Now my left controller drifts very badly. I tried the controller deadzone adjustments and recalibration but nothing works. It has steadily gotten worse, now it's barely playable. 

    Again, the Rift controllers are just better. I keep accidentally grabbing things using the Index controllers. I'm sick of charging them and sometimes forgetting to charge them. With the Rift-S, I just swap rechargeable batteries. Tracking every finger adds nothing to games. It just makes the controllers more expensive and prone to failure. 

    When drifting occurs, there's probably nothing to do - it'll only get worse. Better get it rma'd as soon as possible, seems like Alyx is making it very hard to get new controllers these days, so the sooner you send it in the better - I think. 
    Not sure finger tracking makes the controllers more prone to failure, if only they could fix the thumbstick... They do have great thumbsticks on the Steam Controllers, strange that it's so difficult with the Index controllers.
    At least you'll get the new version with the taller thumbstick, in case that matters - mine is still working perfectly after being mashed and smashed several times in Boneworks ;) 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,542 Valuable Player

    VR demand outstripped supply during the holiday season

    Valve sold 149K Index headsets in 2019. Sales more than doubled from Q3 to Q4 (103K) thanks to anticipation for Half-Life: Alyx, which was announced in November and is slated to arrive in March. The Index sold more units than any other PC VR headset during the quarter despite a steep price of up to $1000. It would have sold even more if not for inventory issues (the device is currently sold out worldwide).

    https://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/superdata-xr-update/

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,327
    Project 2501
    edited January 28
    RuneSR2 said:

    VR demand outstripped supply during the holiday season

    Valve sold 149K Index headsets in 2019. Sales more than doubled from Q3 to Q4 (103K) thanks to anticipation for Half-Life: Alyx, which was announced in November and is slated to arrive in March. The Index sold more units than any other PC VR headset during the quarter despite a steep price of up to $1000. It would have sold even more if not for inventory issues (the device is currently sold out worldwide).

    https://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/superdata-xr-update/


    That's crazy awesome news!! Both for Valve and VR.

    I hope they re-stock and then sell another 500k units! Good for them!!

    I have held of buying an Index or Pimax for now. I'm going to wait a bit longer so this means I'll be playing Half Life Alyx on my Rift-S. Fingers crossed it's still a good experience and runs well. Hopefully no oculus updates before release :)
    UK: England - Leeds - - RTX 2080 - Rift CV1 & Rift S - Make love, not war - See you in the Oasis!
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,971 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:

    VR demand outstripped supply during the holiday season

    Valve sold 149K Index headsets in 2019. Sales more than doubled from Q3 to Q4 (103K)......


    Have been involved in some research for a feature on this situation and came across an interesting fact. The term "Ramping Up" is employed by some to describe when a fabrication plant has been set a target build number and then has to change it for a larger number. Either due to a greater than expected sales order for a particular line, or to address higher than expected returns. In some cases fab operations can not rampup because they expected a one time build and de-tooled (broke up the production line), they had other commitments or had been ordered by the client not to exceed a build number.

    It would seem that both Index and Quest are in interesting positions that it has taken them longer than would be hoped to rampup their headset builders as they had limited the expected production run. We are now seeing the interesting situation of executives that had limited production numbers after feeling the consumer VR scene was slowing, now scrambling to try and increase orders... and in one situation seeing Lenovo go to a competitor company to help them make up the backlog!! 
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  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,971 Valuable Player
    edited January 28
    Just as I posted this, this interesting Superdata "crystal-ball gaze" came in! 


    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,542 Valuable Player
    edited January 28
    kevinw729 said:
    Just as I posted this, this interesting Superdata "crystal-ball gaze" came in! 



    Couldn't post that pic yesterday using my phone, but interesting to see the very expensive Index sell more than the very inexpensive Rift-S, Alyx or not - because you can in fact play Alyx just fine using Rift-S. So people are willing to spend money on VR given the right content it seems. 
    Quest seems to have sold like 700k units last year, which probably is close to 40 - 50% of CV1 total sales, but impressive in less than a year. Quest could reach CV1 measured in sold hmds later this year. 
    Also the numbers above may not reflect the demand, because both Index and Rift-S were hard to find in Dec 2019 - and still is several places, especially Index is impossible to get right now. No doubt Index would be (much) higher if it was possible to buy it, lol. 
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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,971 Valuable Player
    Agree @RuneSR2 - this made for interesting cogitation.

    The INDEX penetration numbers into the market are an 'expert" guess by Superdata - they do have a wonky calculation process reputation, (as seen by zero mention of the HTC Cosmos - though there are Western sales issue with that). I also know Valve are being super closed mouth about market penetration, wanting to launch their new SteamVR service with direct support for captive users (the ultimate eco-system)!

    The numbers do, however, point to the smoking gun regarding the troubled state of the Lenovo / Oculus relationship. Seeing the news of the Varjo / Lenovo partnership and suggestions that Lenovo is working on their own Standalone in partnership with a previous competitor, all seems to point to Déjà vu of the Samsung situation.

    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,274 Valuable Player
    edited January 29
    Maybe nobody bought the Cosmos except Tom, I cannot think why you would.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,542 Valuable Player
    Maybe nobody bought the Cosmos except Tom, I cannot think why you would.
    You do get 5% more res than the Index - for games like Chronos, Kin and Lucky's Tale it might work great even in SteamVR res 200% (maybe also in some sims?), but agreed it may be more problematic in games needing proper tracking - but I've never tested the Cosmos, I really hope HTC can fix the tracking problems. 
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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
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