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The Index thread (please keep to subject)

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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,851 Valuable Player
    Today's Index News  o:) 

    1. Before Index there was Vader - but Vader would cost $5000 and therefore was terminated:

    According to Keighley’s new book, Valve CEO Gabe Newell wanted the company to “move beyond HTC”- to produce a first party headset tightly integrated with first party VR games- similar to Nintendo’s model. This began the ‘Vader’ project.


    We weren’t going to be held back by third party and business realities, so we went a little crazy with our design for Vader. HTC helped us figure out what could be productized, but without that tension, we sort of maxed out everything on Vader” – Valve Programmer Pierre-Loup Griffais


    Valve engineer Jeremy Selan is quoted saying the design had fundamental mechanical and technical architecture problems. According to Keighley’s sources, if the headset “had somehow been manufacturable”, it would have cost “upwards of $5,000”.


    Vader reportedly took 12 months of the VR hardware team’s work, and was then cancelled. While this delayed a Valve headset shipping to the world, some important features of Vader were incorporated in the successor project ‘Frank’; Knuckles controllers, Lighthouse 2.0 base stations, and the off-ear audio design.


    In June 2019, ‘Frank’ shipped as Valve Index, priced at $1,000 for the full kit.

    https://uploadvr.com/valve-vader-headset-5000/


    2. Finalists for the 2020 VR awards include Index:

    https://www.vrfocus.com/2020/07/finalists-for-the-2020-vr-awards-include-half-life-alyx-valve-index-qualcomm/

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,333 Valuable Player
    edited July 10
    RuneSR2 said:
    Today's Index News  o:) 

    1. Before Index there was Vader - but Vader would cost $5000 and therefore was terminated:
    ......

    It is fascinating to consider all the prototypes and design investigations variations that take place before a product can be productized, configured for fabrication and then a release candidate version developed. The process of "design to fabrication" for a complicated electrical item like a VR headset sees countless iterations. This can be best understood with how far the Oculus CV2 release candidate was developed back in 2018, before it was abandoned for the Lenovo WinMR design compromise.

    We have already seen a hint at the different concept design studies that Valve undertook from the VR Room to the Index Mk1, [image]. As the VR Room system, it was a custom design that was still shipped in limited quantities back in 2012, you could claim that that was over $100,000 a unit, and it was actually shipped and supported. I wonder if Vader was more a design study to gain HTC information, than a serious release candidate, (good story for promoting the book though)?



    urdgfqqehbbb.png
    ** Second New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,851 Valuable Player
    edited July 10
    I just got this app:

    https://store.steampowered.com/app/1361700/HalfLife_Alyx__Final_Hours/

    It's like a book as is quite comprehensive - fully worth the price. I grabbed some Index shots from the "book":




    An early Index kit - with hmd, controllers and base stations, lol


    Knuckles phylogenesis ;)




    The "book" does put Index and Alyx into perspective - the amount of work going into both Index and Alyx is simply incredible. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,333 Valuable Player
    edited July 13
    Great images - thanks for sharing, though I think I pulled most of mine from the SteamVR expo event.  One of the highpoints was being able to use VR Room originally - especially how sweet that recreation of it was on the Valve VR demo on ViVE (The LAB). 
    urdgfqqehbbb.png
    ** Second New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,851 Valuable Player
    Just saw this in a Danish shop - it's about $1100 including VAT just for the controllers and 2 base stations - you don't get the hmd  :D 




    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,851 Valuable Player
    edited July 14
    Today's math - just got the following directly from Steam VR:

    Index 100% in SteamVR Home = 2016 x 2240 pixels per eye = 9,031,680 pixels in total.
    Index 200% in SteamVR Home = 2848 x 3168 pixels per eye = 18,171,648 in total.

    Index physical res is 1440 x 1600 pixels per eye = 4,608,000 pixels in total. 

    But 9,031,680/4,608,000 = 1.96 - meaning that Index SteamVR res 100% is nearly double the physical res - which is quite massive

    Now, 2016/1440 and 2240/1600 are both equal to 1.4. And 1.4 x 1.4 = 1.96. Thus SteamVR res 100% multiplies each dimension (height and width) of the physical res by 1.4. 

    Not sure why 200% isn't 2880 x 3200, but it's very close as 2848/1440 and 3168/1600 are 1.98. 

    Thus Steam res 100% is about the double of the physical res - while res 200% is about four times the physical res. I know I once measured my CV1 to be ss 1.4 (OTT) when using SteamVR res 100%, and ss 2.0 for SteamVR 200%. I guess nothing has changed there. But it has been changed for the Reverb:

    Interesting that Index res 100% in SteamVR really is double the physical res. If the same logic applies to Reverb (G2), then Reverb (G2) SteamVR res 100% corresponds to Index SteamVR res 200%. Note that Reverb physical res is 2160 x 2160 per eye = 9,331,200 pixels in total - and 1.96 that res is 18,289,152 pixels, more or less totally similar to using Index res 200%. I can run many games in Index res 200%, but there're tons of games where that res is way too demanding.  
    According to some Reddit users, Reverb has been set much lower in SteamVR to maintain acceptable performance, thus SteamVR res 100% seems to be 2208 x 2160 pixels and very close to the physical res. 

    Compared to the Index, then Reverb SteamVR res 100% is only pushing 5% more pixels than Index res 100%. This would indicate that SteamVR res 200% is causing a similar gpu burden no matter if you use Reverb or Index. And that Index gets much more super sampling the Reverb - but Reverb may not need it...

    The conclusion could be that Index and Reverb has similar system requirements - if you want to use SteamVR res 100% - 150% or 200% - etc. 

    Some sources:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/HPReverb/comments/gv7uio/native_render_resolution_for_hp_reverb/
    https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/c7b680/per_eye_resolution_in_steamvr/
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,851 Valuable Player
    Maybe it's time to share some of the good stuff too - also when I can personally support the post (the last 9 months I've had no controller issues - including completing Alyx and much more):


    Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/hrdeli/1000_hours_of_service_and_they_still_lookwork_new/

    I really love the Knuckles - and of course I still love good old Touch - kinda like having two kids, who are different, and of course you can love more than one, lol ;)
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,851 Valuable Player
    edited July 15
    During the summer holidays we've been somewhat grounded due to Covid-19, but we've visited like fun parks, museums, restaurants, botanical gardens - even saw a T-Rex on display yesterday (but it wasn't as cool as the one I saw in the Royal Tyrrell Museum) - and we've had many fun and interesting experiences. 

    But somehow it all fades when I stand in City 17 with my Dark Energy/pulse-powered sub machine gun, lol. And it totally looks and feels real. 

    In short, real-life experiences of course contain the greatest and most important moments, but VR offers experiences far beyond everyday life. I consider myself fortunate to be able to experience these worlds. Valve isn't lying:




    Btw, after visiting some art museums, I really don't think the difference between the real world and VR is that big - at least when it comes to paintings. Especially when the VR paintings are reproduced with ultra-high resolution, where you even can see the smallest cracks in the paint, I don't think the VR experience is significantly worse than experiencing paintings in the real world. This is also due to the hmd res allowing you to experience an extreme amount of details when looking at objects less than 3 or 4 feet away (or better less than 1 foot away) - VR hmds have their weaknesses when looking at far way objects, but truly shine when you're close to objects. So don't feel bad about going to art museums without leaving your home ;) 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,851 Valuable Player
    edited July 15
    Nice video:


     - like Matteo311 I've never experienced any heat from the Index, nor needed any counterweight - and I don't have problems with the cable (but I don't spin around much, lol). I'd be careful with the ChillDex, in case it could blow dust inside the lenses. Maybe Index will be more hot using 120 or 144 Hz, but I using 90 Hz I never felt more heat from Index than CV1. That said I never measured temps and Index has not once fogged up - while CV1 often fogged up - maybe Index is designed to be slightly hotter here'n there to avoid fogging of the lenses. 

    Also a warning - do not use the breakaway cable to detach the Index from your rig. That cable is only for emergency situations and is not for everyday use. I think the cable is rated at being able to do about 50 "breakaways" - persons often unplugging the breakaway cable could end up experiencing this  :# 

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/gg1toc/received_my_index_after_a_long_6_week_wait_to/
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • Comrade_IvanComrade_Ivan Posts: 126
    Art3mis
    RuneSR2 said:
    ...That said I never measured temps and Index has not once fogged up - while CV1 often fogged up - maybe Index is designed to be slightly hotter here'n there to avoid fogging of the lenses. 

    . Mine fogs up, but only when I first plug it in. If I leave it plugged in (which I often do; I mostly unplug it when I know I'll have visitors and want to move the HMD somewhere where it wouldn't be in the way), the fogging never occurs. I guess leaving it plugged in keeps the headset just a smidge warmer
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,851 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    ...That said I never measured temps and Index has not once fogged up - while CV1 often fogged up - maybe Index is designed to be slightly hotter here'n there to avoid fogging of the lenses. 

    . Mine fogs up, but only when I first plug it in. If I leave it plugged in (which I often do; I mostly unplug it when I know I'll have visitors and want to move the HMD somewhere where it wouldn't be in the way), the fogging never occurs. I guess leaving it plugged in keeps the headset just a smidge warmer
    Makes sense - and I forgot to mention that my Index is always plugged in (blue light standby mode). 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,851 Valuable Player
    Seems some has gotten severe problems with their base stations after the latest Win10 update:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/hruu6s/base_stations_no_longer_properly_startingstopping/

    I'm starting to consider the MS updates the worst enemy of my rig. Don't recall ever being hit by a virus, but MS might hit many rigs severely with these more or less forced major updates. That's why I wait as long as possible with such updates, being a year behind normally ensures that Oculus and Valve have had enough time to support the MS Win10 updates. 2c.
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 2,386 Valuable Player
    @RuneSR2 I updated to win10 2004 last week (from 1909) with my Vive Pro full kit.  It uses the same 2.0 base stations as the Index (both built by Valve).  The only problem I noticed was that my base stations were initially not going into sleep mode.  I just went into the SteamVR device menu and redid the BT (disabled it, then enabled it again).  I also redid my base station power savings options the same way.  I have not had any problems with it since, including with the latest StreamVR non-beta update 1.13.10. 

    If you want to avoid going to the very latest win10 feature updates I suggest you at least consider going to win10 1909.  This was the best of the bunch imho. 

    Likewise with nvidia, I would not recommend the latest 451.xx series (which was supposed to be geared to 2004) because it seems to have a few bugs together with lower VR/gaming/sim performance (tried both 451.xx).  The best reasonably current one I use is 422.19 and I think that this is the best performing nvidia driver out there right now.

    I would not pay too much attention to a few Reddit professional kiddie complainers.  Just like this forum; one guy says he has a problem and the next say he has the same one, lol!  If it were a Real problem there would be a lot more chatter and I'm sure a simple solution would be found.

    Custom built gaming desktop; i9 9900k (water cooled) oc to 5ghz, gtx 1080 ti, 32 gb 3000hz ram, 1 tb ssd, 4 tb hdd.  Asus  ROG Maximus xi hero wifi mb, StarTech 4 port/4 controller sata powered usb3.0 pcie card, PCI-E PCI Express to USB 3.1 Gen 2 card, Asus VG248QE 1080p 144hz gaming monitor, Oculus Rift cv1 w/2x sensors, Vive Pro w/2.0 base stations/controllers, Quest w/Link and VD wireless (good/close 5Ghz wifi and PC with Ethernet cable to my Router).

  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,851 Valuable Player
    Fully agree, if all had this problem many more would complain - still it may save some for unexpected problems. 
    There has indeed been problems with the latest Nvidia drivers too, forgot to mention those. Again all rigs may not be affected, but it underlines the risk of installing new gpu drivers and Win10 updates, before Valve and Oculus have had time to support them.

    I'm using 1903 btw, but keep getting messages that MS wants me to install 1909, lol - but I'm not in a hurry ;)
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 2,386 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    Fully agree, if all had this problem many more would complain - still it may save some for unexpected problems. 
    There has indeed been problems with the latest Nvidia drivers too, forgot to mention those. Again all rigs may not be affected, but it underlines the risk of installing new gpu drivers and Win10 updates, before Valve and Oculus have had time to support them.

    I'm using 1903 btw, but keep getting messages that MS wants me to install 1909, lol - but I'm not in a hurry ;)
    Trust me 1909 is much better/faster/more stable than 1903.  I found 1903 to be the worst feature update ever.  When I updated my wife's PC to 1909 she thought I'd given her a new PC, lol!

    I believe most companies like Oculus and Valve test their systems well before public releases of Win10 feature updates so in most cases this should not be an issue.  Still pays to be a little (but not a lot) conservative when you do Win10 feature updates.  I usually wait a month or two before taking the plunge (1.5 months with 2004).  In any case Microsoft makes it relatively easy to roll back if necessary.

    Custom built gaming desktop; i9 9900k (water cooled) oc to 5ghz, gtx 1080 ti, 32 gb 3000hz ram, 1 tb ssd, 4 tb hdd.  Asus  ROG Maximus xi hero wifi mb, StarTech 4 port/4 controller sata powered usb3.0 pcie card, PCI-E PCI Express to USB 3.1 Gen 2 card, Asus VG248QE 1080p 144hz gaming monitor, Oculus Rift cv1 w/2x sensors, Vive Pro w/2.0 base stations/controllers, Quest w/Link and VD wireless (good/close 5Ghz wifi and PC with Ethernet cable to my Router).

  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,851 Valuable Player
    edited July 20
    RuneSR2 said:
    Seems some has gotten severe problems with their base stations after the latest Win10 update:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/hruu6s/base_stations_no_longer_properly_startingstopping/

    I'm starting to consider the MS updates the worst enemy of my rig. Don't recall ever being hit by a virus, but MS might hit many rigs severely with these more or less forced major updates. That's why I wait as long as possible with such updates, being a year behind normally ensures that Oculus and Valve have had enough time to support the MS Win10 updates. 2c.
    Just to illustrate - it's this error:



    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • oldgamergazzaoldgamergazza Posts: 67
    Hiro Protagonist
    I get a bluetooth error since the update a few weeks ago, but the lighthouse still works but get an error sometimes, I am having trouble with my Xbox control which is also Bluetooth if the batteries run out and reconnecting:(
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,851 Valuable Player
    Seems no-one is testing this rather important subject - so I sat down today and downloaded Nefertari from both the Oculus Store and Steam. I use Revive 1.9.2. Note this is kinda a worst case scenario, Nefertari is 12GB for rooms that might be the equivalent of 0.1% of Alyx, lol:

     

    These are my results - standing the exact same place, Epic settings (OTT performance and pixel density hud used for CV1, FpsVR used for Index):

    CV1 ss 2.0 (Oculus Store version) = 22.5 fps 
    Index res 100% (Oculus Store version) = 45 fps
    Index res 200% (Oculus Store version) = 30 fps
    Index res 200% (Steam version) = 45 fps 

    It's really amazing how much better the Index looks and performs using native Steam drivers. Getting 100% better performance using native Steam drivers - and using res 200 % - compared to Rift CV1 ss 2.0 was not exactly what I expected. Also note that Revive res 200% actually worked better than CV1 ss 2.0 too. 
    This kinda puts the awesome performance I'm getting in Alyx into some perspective - but I'd need to test that more thoroughly. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,909 Valuable Player
    edited July 24
    RuneSR2 said:
    Seems no-one is testing this rather important subject - so I sat down today and downloaded Nefertari from both the Oculus Store and Steam. I use Revive 1.9.2. Note this is kinda a worst case scenario, Nefertari is 12GB for rooms that might be the equivalent of 0.1% of Alyx, lol:

     

    These are my results - standing the exact same place, Epic settings (OTT performance and pixel density hud used for CV1, FpsVR used for Index):

    CV1 ss 2.0 (Oculus Store version) = 22.5 fps 
    Index res 100% (Oculus Store version) = 45 fps
    Index res 200% (Oculus Store version) = 30 fps
    Index res 200% (Steam version) = 45 fps 

    It's really amazing how much better the Index looks and performs using native Steam drivers. Getting 100% better performance using native Steam drivers - and using res 200 % - compared to Rift CV1 ss 2.0 was not exactly what I expected. Also note that Revive res 200% actually worked better than CV1 ss 2.0 too. 
    This kinda puts the awesome performance I'm getting in Alyx into some perspective - but I'd need to test that more thoroughly. 

    That's typically been my experience with most games. I personally get pretty good performance out of Steam when you look at the numbers. The problem is my O+ has that blur that you pretty much need to run 180%+ and ideally 210% to get it looking crisp which is a big task for my poor 1080 in a lot of games. 150% I can pretty much run anything but sims and it still looks great but I'm picky lol.  I was going to try and see what kind of performance I get with Nefertari....then I remember the Dev went dark before fixing the double vision with O+.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,851 Valuable Player
    Maybe there are some hidden advantages of using native Steam drivers - and maybe WMR is doing something close to that. 

    I certainly did not expect to get that much better performance out of Index than CV1, I expected CV1 to give me superior performance. There may be things to consider - I don't know the engine behind Nefertari. Maybe Index is just better at handling very large textures combined with high degrees of super-sampling. Or maybe something is just wrong with Nefertari causing too low CV1 performance. But at 22.5 fps even ASW can't save me, lol. 

    I might try to check some more games later. Problem is I usually need both versions installed (same game in Oculus and Steam version) to be able to truly compare performance - but maybe I'll just restrict myself to Revive - then I just need the Oculus version... 

    - Because I don't think Stormland works like Nefertari :D As men of science, we of course need to measure that  o:)
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,909 Valuable Player
    edited July 24
    RuneSR2 said:
    Maybe there are some hidden advantages of using native Steam drivers - and maybe WMR is doing something close to that. 

    I certainly did not expect to get that much better performance out of Index than CV1, I expected CV1 to give me superior performance. There may be things to consider - I don't know the engine behind Nefertari. Maybe Index is just better at handling very large textures combined with high degrees of super-sampling. Or maybe something is just wrong with Nefertari causing too low CV1 performance. But at 22.5 fps even ASW can't save me, lol. 

    I might try to check some more games later. Problem is I usually need both versions installed (same game in Oculus and Steam version) to be able to truly compare performance - but maybe I'll just restrict myself to Revive - then I just need the Oculus version... 

    - Because I don't think Stormland works like Nefertari :D As men of science, we of course need to measure that  o:)

    Yea I was always bummed that the Dev abandoned it without fixing the O+ issue. Seems like a cool experience. I have several games on both platforms, I wonder if there's another graphic intensive free one we could compare on. I have the latest revive loaded so it wouldn't be apples to apples....plus the whole we have different processors and your 1080 is overclocked and mine isn't lol. But ehhhhh. Would be fun anyway. Maybe Aircar?
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,851 Valuable Player
    edited July 24
    Of course results will be limited to one rig - and it's difficult only changing one variable when using different hmds and resolutions. 

    Btw - did try 120 Hz in a few more Revived games with Index res 200%. Worked perfectly for Shooty Skies as previously mentioned, and also for Lucky's Tale - but the fox is animated in some special way, and that resulted in some small glitches at 120 Hz, while the environment worked perfectly in solid 120 fps. Pistol Whip also works in 120 Hz, but I can't maintain solid 120 fps using res 200%. If I have to choose, res 200% always wins. With a GTX 1080 the amount of games working in solid 120 fps/Hz and res 200% is small - but they do exist. Kin also worked in solid 120 fps/Hz res 200%, but I felt some animations were faster than usual, but I only tested it for a few minutes. Being locked to 90 fps, maybe forcing Oculus games and apps to use 120 Hz can introduce some errors that may not be present using the Steam versions... 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,909 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    Of course results will be limited to one rig - and it's difficult only changing one variable when using different hmds and resolutions. 

    Btw - did try 120 Hz in a few more Revived games with Index res 200%. Worked perfectly for Shooty Skies as previously mentioned, and also for Lucky's Tale - but the fox is animated in some special way, and that resulted in some small glitches at 120 Hz, while the environment worked perfectly in solid 120 fps. Pistol Whip also works in 120 Hz, but I can't maintain solid 120 fps using res 200%. If I have to choose, res 200% always wins. With a GTX 1080 the amount of games working in solid 120 fps/Hz and res 200% is small - but they do exist. Kin also worked in solid 120 fps/Hz res 200%, but I felt some animations were faster than usual, but I only tested it for a few minutes. Being locked to 90 fps, maybe forcing Oculus games and apps to use 120 Hz can introduce some errors that may not be present using the Steam versions... 
    Honestly I found for the couple of weeks that I had my Index, that I got the best performance out of my 1080 by just running 80 hz and supersampling as high as I could. There really wasn't much noticeable difference to me between 80 and 90. I could definitely tell 144 from 90 though.

  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,909 Valuable Player
    I'm gonna make a new thread because I don't want to derail this one from Index since i'll be talking about O+ which I'm sure noone in here cares about.
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,446 Valuable Player
    I think you are the only one with one :)
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,909 Valuable Player
    I think you are the only one with one :)

    Yea, most likely. I think everyone went to Index or Reverb that had one. I wouldn't have sold my Index if the glare wasn't such a problem for me.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,851 Valuable Player
    Just had the most awesome experience in a long time, but need to investigate more before jumping to conclusions.

    Previously I never liked Steam's Motion Smoothing, because I got a lot of reprojections and artifacts, and ASW 2.0 was so much better. It's been months since I tested Motion Smoothing the last time, and SteamVR has been updated several times.
    Today I got some dips below 90 fps in Paper Beast res 200%, and I thought why not test some Motion Smoothing. To my great surprise the game now became totally smooth, felt like a constant 90 fps - like I've only seen it with ASW 2.0. I could see some movement errors when waving my hands, also like when using ASW 2.0, but moving forward/backward or strafing left/right was perfect - like using ASW 2.0.

    I need to test more games, but this was the first time Motion Smoothing worked close to perfectly - again like ASW 2.0. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,909 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    Just had the most awesome experience in a long time, but need to investigate more before jumping to conclusions.

    Previously I never liked Steam's Motion Smoothing, because I got a lot of reprojections and artifacts, and ASW 2.0 was so much better. It's been months since I tested Motion Smoothing the last time, and SteamVR has been updated several times.
    Today I got some dips below 90 fps in Paper Beast res 200%, and I thought why not test some Motion Smoothing. To my great surprise the game now became totally smooth, felt like a constant 90 fps - like I've only seen it with ASW 2.0. I could see some movement errors when waving my hands, also like when using ASW 2.0, but moving forward/backward or strafing left/right was perfect - like using ASW 2.0.

    I need to test more games, but this was the first time Motion Smoothing worked close to perfectly - again like ASW 2.0. 

    Yea it's hit or miss for me still. Some games it works fantastic, others not so much.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,851 Valuable Player
    pyroth309 said:
    RuneSR2 said:
    Just had the most awesome experience in a long time, but need to investigate more before jumping to conclusions.

    Previously I never liked Steam's Motion Smoothing, because I got a lot of reprojections and artifacts, and ASW 2.0 was so much better. It's been months since I tested Motion Smoothing the last time, and SteamVR has been updated several times.
    Today I got some dips below 90 fps in Paper Beast res 200%, and I thought why not test some Motion Smoothing. To my great surprise the game now became totally smooth, felt like a constant 90 fps - like I've only seen it with ASW 2.0. I could see some movement errors when waving my hands, also like when using ASW 2.0, but moving forward/backward or strafing left/right was perfect - like using ASW 2.0.

    I need to test more games, but this was the first time Motion Smoothing worked close to perfectly - again like ASW 2.0. 

    Yea it's hit or miss for me still. Some games it works fantastic, others not so much.
    Interesting, I need to retest some V-Racer Hoverbike - that game needs some serious motion smoothing using Index, due to ASW 2.0 I've been using CV1 for that game. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,909 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    pyroth309 said:
    RuneSR2 said:
    Just had the most awesome experience in a long time, but need to investigate more before jumping to conclusions.

    Previously I never liked Steam's Motion Smoothing, because I got a lot of reprojections and artifacts, and ASW 2.0 was so much better. It's been months since I tested Motion Smoothing the last time, and SteamVR has been updated several times.
    Today I got some dips below 90 fps in Paper Beast res 200%, and I thought why not test some Motion Smoothing. To my great surprise the game now became totally smooth, felt like a constant 90 fps - like I've only seen it with ASW 2.0. I could see some movement errors when waving my hands, also like when using ASW 2.0, but moving forward/backward or strafing left/right was perfect - like using ASW 2.0.

    I need to test more games, but this was the first time Motion Smoothing worked close to perfectly - again like ASW 2.0. 

    Yea it's hit or miss for me still. Some games it works fantastic, others not so much.
    Interesting, I need to retest some V-Racer Hoverbike - that game needs some serious motion smoothing using Index, due to ASW 2.0 I've been using CV1 for that game. 
    I think I still have it installed, i'll give it a try later on myself. WMR uses SteamVR's motion smoothing now. It's the same algorithm so should be the same results. Be nice to know for sure.

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