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The Index thread (please keep to subject)

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  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 3,663 Valuable Player
    When people use hyperbolic excitable words like "insane" then my pinch of salt 'O' meter begins to shake violently.


    System Specs: RTX 2080 ti , i9 9900K CPU, 16 GB DDR 4 RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,836 Valuable Player
    edited June 27
    From CV1 to Index:

    (Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/c61xzq/index_impressions_from_an_oculus_defector/ )

    Index Impressions from an Oculus Defector

    Good evening. I know many of you are eagerly awaiting receiving your Valve Index in the coming days. I happened to be one of the few who got one today and I had a chance tonight to try out the full kit for roughly 2 hours before having to call it a night.

    First things first.


    -I am running Windows 10 on a single RTX 2080TI Founders Edition and an i7 8700 (non k) with 16GB of 3200mhz RAM.


    -I currently own a CV1 Rift, Oculus Go, Oculus Quest and a Valve Index. I have never owned a Vive.


    -I don’t have time to take through the lens shot comparisons.


    -I don’t have equipment or measuring tools to provide anyone with exact dimensions of the lenses.


    -I have not yet tried Re-Vive in any form or fashion.


    With that stuff out of the way here are my first impressions.



    FOV


    This was the first thing I noticed and quite frankly was looking for. Coming from a Rift, the FOV jump was massive to me. With the eye relief fully extended, it reminded me of a Rift-like FOV; but once i cranked the eye relief all the way up to my eye sockets it seemed to take up the majority of my view and did not make me feel like I was wearing a scuba mask. Could I still see edges? Of course - but it was a dramatic change that only really blacked out my far peripheral vision. Perhaps the most stunning thing about this is that nearly the entire lens was clear and in focus across the view.


    SDE


    Personally I couldn’t notice much SDE at all. My eyes can definitely see SDE on OLED displays but I find it difficult personally to see much of that on an LED display. Nothing really blew me away in this department but I supposed it would have if the only VR I have used before was a Quest or something which to me has terribly egregious SDE, especially when watching movies.


    144 HZ


    When I first enabled this option, I loaded up Beat Saber only to find it was running pretty sluggishly. Turns out Steam VR thought my 2080TI should be ran at 144% resolution and beat saber was still set on a 1.80 render scale. Once I told Steam VR to simply run it at 100% resolution and changed Beat Saber back to 1.0 render scale - everything was butter smooth. I could definitely tell a difference from your typical 90hz and most certainly the Quest’s 72hz. The light swords felt more connected to me and the game somehow felt easier. Combined with the superior no-brainer lighthouse 2.0 tracking I felt totally in command and easily cut through a few songs on expert with a heightened perception of what was happening around me. Needless to say, I will be leaving my setting at 144hz for any and all games unless I run into issues or glaring slow downs. I did not notice a single screen tearing effect or anything in this mode.


    Audio


    This was one of the features I was most excited about. I can definitely say that the audio is extremely good. It does indeed have that “externalized” sensation and you can certainly tell when a sound is coming from behind you of from whatever direction. There really isn’t much else to say about it other than its an impressive audio solution and I have no complaints. I did not find it to loud or to soft at max volume.


    Low Persistence


    To be honest I did not notice this feature as much as I thought I would. Perhaps it is because I was jumping right into higher frame rates but I have never really had any ghosting happen to me in VR. All I can say here is that if its working behind the scenes - its working well but I did not get that “Jump to GSYNC” feeling I was expecting.


    Comfort


    This is definitely the most comfortable VR headset I have worn. The weight is nicely distributed evenly and the foam padding on the face gasket is very nice.


    Index Controllers


    Coming from the Rifts touch controllers, I did not have a hard time at all adjusting to the grab mechanics. I would say of everything I was evaluating though, I had difficulty with the controllers. At first it was finding the right fit for my hands with the straps - then it was figuring out not to pull them so tightly. By the time I got the controllers fitting comfortably - I started having issues with finger tracking on my Right controller. Specifically the middle finger. When my brain registered the middle finger as DOWN the controller would think it was partly lifted and vice versa. My left controller worked near flawlessly, and at times my right controller behaved as I think it should. Bottom line here is that I think I am just not used to the controllers fully yet. I also had some issues when I lifted my middle finger that it would lift both the middle and ring fingers up. Perhaps I have not found the sweet spots yet for finger tracking...


    Games I Tried


    Coming from Rift, most of my library is unfortunately on the Home store. I did re-purchase some things recently and I do plan on getting more during the steam sale.


    -Robot Hand Lab: Was cool aside from the finger tracking issues described above.


    -Moondust: Had the most fun throwing those grenades. Surprisingly accurate overhand tossing. Had issues underhand tossing though.


    -The Lab: Still had “Vive Trigger Grabbing” active. Was Epic doing that arcade blaster game in 144 hz and a massive FOV though!


    -H3: Game kept thinking I had Vive controllers connected. Couldn’t find an option to force it to detect that I had Index Controllers on. Didn’t even get to shoot a gun =( I guess I’ll wait till Friday when the update hits with the TF content?


    -Vacation Simulator: I quit pretty much immediately when I realized it wasn’t tracking my fingers. Perhaps that update isn’t live yet?


    -Steam Media Player: Watched some test footage of some SBS 3D Movies I ripped. Clarity is so good I can see the compression blotches on the video.


    -Trover Saves the Universe: Nothing special as far as Index support here - but the game looked really good and vibrant through the HMD.


    In Summary


    I am really happy I purchased the Valve Index. Did it give me that “first time VR” feeling again? Not entirely - but it is by far the best HMD I have had the pleasure of peering through. I suspect the Index finger tracking issues I had are most likely user error, but might be resolved eventually with a firmware update? Overall I hope games get updated for native index support (even without finger tracking) so that I don’t have to trigger grab.

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,836 Valuable Player
    Rift-S vs. Index - Index has the better screen: 

    Brightness, blackpoint and gamut measurements of Index vs Rift S - with extra details this time around


    In short, Rift S shows:

    • 95.4% sRGB

    • 70.4% DCI-P3

    • 50.4% Rec. 2020

    • Max luminance: 74

    • Min black levels: 0.16

    Measurements from last time for reference:

    Index gamut:

    • 99.4% sRGB

    • 87.7% DCI-P3

    • 66% Rec. 2020

    Luminance in nits:

    • Index: 95

    • Vive Pro: 143 *

    • Vive: 214

    Black level in nits:

    • Index: 0.153

    • Vive: under 0.02 🡐 with true blacks turned off via black smear compensation (default).

    • Vive: 0 🡐 with true blacks turned on, black smear compensation disabled via running the headset in secondary display mode.

    More here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/c5sxu5/brightness_blackpoint_and_gamut_measurements_of/

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,836 Valuable Player
    edited June 27
    Another The Old King (CV1) vs. Index  B)

    Even more first impressions from a former CV1 owner

    Just got my Index hooked up! Unboxing was really fun, they did a wonderful job with the presentation of it all as you unpack it. Quite a bit of fun.

    Impressions after playing Hand Lab & a round of Beat Saber:


    • Super high build quality. It just feels like a high-end product, which is great. The Rift felt like a cheap piece of plastic compared to this thing. Putting it on/taking it off is a ton easier and there’s considerably less reliance on velcro. Setup was also a lot easier and pretty painless. Plug in a couple base stations, plug the headset in, put it on. Really don't think this should be considered a "con" vs. the Rift S... it's 5 minutes of your time, one time.

    • Visuals are quite a bit better, though I will admit maybe not “night and day” from the Rift. There’s still the slight feeling of “looking into a world” rather than “being in a world,” but I think there are going to have to be some major advances in VR tech to get over that hurdle. In general, though, text is way sharper, the so-called “god rays” are better than the Rift (anybody hung up on this fact should not worry too much, you can see them, but if you aren't looking for them I don't think it'll be a concern), and things generally look a lot more present.

    • The refresh rate is 120Hz (or 144Hz – haven’t figured out if that’s enabled or not) and I can definitely tell. Movement feels a lot more fluid. I’m going to try to see how to set 144Hz next – or maybe it’s set by default?

    • Concerning the LCD vs OLED, while you can tell (blacks are a little more grey), it’s hardly noticeable. I honestly stopped caring after about 5 seconds. Colors and the general picture looks very pleasant. I would say unless you are completely obsessed with your black levels, this is a non-issue and isn't worthy of any anxiety whatsoever. Your eyeballs adjust to the scene.

    • Controllers are amazing, as expected. You just strap them to your hands and they instantly track all 5 fingers. Super cool and a massive upgrade over the Touch controllers. Anybody coming from the Vive wands should be psyched for these.

    • Sound is great – you don’t feel like you have headphones on, at the same time it sounds like you have headphones on. It’s the best of both worlds. They are PLENTY loud. Anybody saying they're not loud enough has hearing problems, full-stop.

    • The Index has a purported ~30-40-degree increase on FOV over the Rift, though I have to admit this was a little less obvious than I was hoping. It’s definitely wider, but there’s still some “ski goggle effect” going on. I think once I get into some games, though, the extra FOV will help with immersion. It’s definitely there, it just wasn’t maybe as dramatic as I’d hoped. I have to keep the lenses about 1 "click" away from my eyes as they do indeed get right up into your eyeball's business at the closest setting.

    • Tracking, compared to Oculus’s “constellation” on the OG Rift, is remarkably better. This alone is worth the price of admission to me as I had grown to really hate the Rift’s janky tracking.

    Overall I’m really pleased with it. I think it’s somewhat of a reality check that it’s not absolutely mind-blowing, but it’s quite a nice upgrade over the Rift, which is all I wanted (and, realistically, all I knew it would be).

    If you're still waiting for your shipment, I would suggest you remain excited :)

    I'll post more once I have more time with it, if anybody reads this (I imagine there are dozens of these posts today!).


    Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/c6aubw/even_more_first_impressions_from_a_former_cv1/


    So far not many posts with technical problems, still only a few have received their Index.

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 3,663 Valuable Player
    edited June 27
    As Mr Rune will attest, when you high super-sample even on the CV1/Rift S you get to the extremes of clarity where similar headsets might not present as much difference as you would expect. For me the Pimax 8K beats all with the FOV but not much else. The Reverb is clarity king when it can be bothered to work properly and the Odyssey+ Queen of reduced SDE at the expense of sharpness. I expect (and based on the above testimonies) the Index tracking Knave and Cosmos somewhere in-between.

    As the great Techy once said (well I think it was him) these HMDs manufacturers should stop arsing about and collectively or otherwise make the definitive VR headset we all want at a reasonable price. It's such a disjointed jamboree at the moment.


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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,836 Valuable Player
    Seems like Index NDA (what's left of it) is lifted in a few minutes...

    https://twitter.com/MrZulubo/status/1144346802826567680
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 6,244 Volunteer Moderator
    @Shadowmask72 yup twas me
    A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.

  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,836 Valuable Player
    Would be really great to get some Index launch games revealed tomorrow - or if Valve would announce just 1 of their 3 games in case they need more time to finish the first game... At least we should get some news about Vanishing Realms... 
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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,404 Valuable Player
    edited June 27
    I'm really looking forward to getting the Valve index, but I just wish companies like Oculus were a bit more open about their future plans. I would be a bit pished off if I went and purchased a Valve index and then Oculus decided to bring out it's own highend VR headset. I'm not sure that going highend is something Oculus is looking to do anymore though, and I have a feeling that they just want to cater for the lower end graphics card users from now on.
    It's just a shame Oculus didn't bring out something more highend for the people who have a highend graphics cards, because I feel these people will just look else where now. I'm still a bit undecided about what headset to get next, but it's going to have to have a better resolution then Rift S now that I have a Geforce 2080ti.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,901 Valuable Player
    They won't release the CV2 until 2022. They won't be releasing another PC VR headset next year or anything.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • parsecnparsecn Posts: 23
    Brain Burst
    snowdog said:
    They won't release the CV2 until 2022. They won't be releasing another PC VR headset next year or anything.
    I wish Oculus would officially announce this or shed light on their road-map. I'm of the opinion that CV2 is canceled indefinitely.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,404 Valuable Player
    parsecn said:
    snowdog said:
    They won't release the CV2 until 2022. They won't be releasing another PC VR headset next year or anything.
    I wish Oculus would officially announce this or shed light on their road-map. I'm of the opinion that CV2 is canceled indefinitely.
    I'm not sure want to think anymore when it comes to what Oculus has planned. The talk of half dome display's and stuff seems like a distant memory now. Looks like I'm going to have to get a valve index now that HP Reverb seems to have ran into problems atm.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,901 Valuable Player
    parsecn said:
    snowdog said:
    They won't release the CV2 until 2022. They won't be releasing another PC VR headset next year or anything.
    I wish Oculus would officially announce this or shed light on their road-map. I'm of the opinion that CV2 is canceled indefinitely.

    We'll have an update on the Half Dome prototype at OC6 this year I think, plus Abrash may give a clue as to where they're headed in terms of a timescale.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,268 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:
    We'll have an update on the Half Dome prototype at OC6 this year I think, plus Abrash may give a clue as to where they're headed in terms of a timescale.

    I sure hope so. Consumers need more Half Dome news considering how Rift-S is performing on the global market.
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,836 Valuable Player
    Launch party speech:



    Wireless coming up later according to Newell. And Vertigo 2 reveal trailer:


    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    edited June 28
    RuneSR2 said:
    Maybe using Index without activating several layers of (Oculus) drivers and software will provide better SteamVR experiences than using Rift in SteamVR, but no-one seems to be investigating such details... 
    I'd do it but I don't have a SteamVR headset with the same resolution as the Rift so any comparisons would be apples to oranges. Would have to be someone with both an OG Vive and a CV1 running the same game on both stores on the same machine so that's going to be a very small number of people.

    I'd be curious myself how much the performance difference is as well as some hard numbers on the difference between ASW and Motion Smoothing. I've only used a WMR headset which has an extra layer to go through and has its own ASW equivalent. It will be interesting to see how the Index performs for me compared to my Odyssey especially with all of the updates Valve has been doing to SteamVR. 
  • kojackkojack Posts: 5,352 Volunteer Moderator
    RuneSR2 said:
    Launch party speech:



    Wireless coming up later according to Newell.
    What is it with VR people and sandals? Wear some damn shoes Gabe and Palmer!

  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    edited June 28
    kojack said:
    RuneSR2 said:
    Launch party speech:



    Wireless coming up later according to Newell.
    What is it with VR people and sandals? Wear some damn shoes Gabe and Palmer!

    I literally said the same thing. I don't want to look at some dude's nasty feet!

    Wireless coming up later according to Newell.
    Glad you caught that, I watched this Video earlier on my phone and missed that statement. I was 99% sure it was coming based on previous statements from Gabe but glad to hear it reconfirmed. 

  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,836 Valuable Player
    Vertigo 2 does not support the Rifts, playable demo July 16, final game 2020. Looks quite awesome - I don't think this is one of the 3 Valve games though:






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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,836 Valuable Player
    Still waiting for Vanishing Realms, but I guess they're still sleeping in Los Angeles the next 9 hours or so ;)

    https://store.steampowered.com/news/?appids=322770

    Vanishing Realms is on sale too, maybe a nice game to get - it's fully optimized for the Rift and Touch. And it's solid 90 fps using super sampling 2.0 on a GTX 1080 or better (maybe GTX 1070 too). 
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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    Vertigo 2 does not support the Rifts, playable demo July 16, final game 2020. Looks quite awesome - I don't think this is one of the 3 Valve games though:






    Doubtful. Their 3 games will have their name on it. They've been working on them since 2016 after all. This does look pretty cool though. 
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,836 Valuable Player
    Aperture Hand Lab and Vertigo 2 do not support Rifts, but they do support Vive, maybe that's the start of a trend, but I think Gabe said that the 3 Valve games would work on the Rifts too...
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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    edited June 28
    RuneSR2 said:
    Aperture Hand Lab and Vertigo 2 do not support Rifts, but they do support Vive, maybe that's the start of a trend, but I think Gabe said that the 3 Valve games would work on the Rifts too...
    Did they developer for Vertigo 2 state no support for Rift? A lot of times it gets added later and there might be an oculus Home version in the works. Seems to be pretty early in the project since it has a release of 2020. Hand labs is a Valve demo so that one wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't get added. They did add The Lab though. 
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,836 Valuable Player
    edited June 28
    pyroth309 said:
    RuneSR2 said:
    Aperture Hand Lab and Vertigo 2 do not support Rifts, but they do support Vive, maybe that's the start of a trend, but I think Gabe said that the 3 Valve games would work on the Rifts too...
    Did they developer for Vertigo 2 state no support for Rift? A lot of times it gets added later and there might be an oculus Home version in the works. Seems to be pretty early in the project since it has a release of 2020. Hand labs is a Valve demo so that one wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't get added. They did add The Lab though. 

    Vertigo 2 is apparently made by a (previous?) Valve employee. It says here that Index, Vive and WMR HMDs are supported, so it's strange that there're no Rifts:

    https://store.steampowered.com/app/843390/Vertigo_2/

    Of course you could be right and Rifts might be added later. Apparantly Vertigo 2 has been "built by the ground up for Index". More here:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/c6bqeq/im_excited_to_officially_reveal_vertigo_2_my_game/
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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • WildtWildt Posts: 1,936 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    Aperture Hand Lab and Vertigo 2 do not support Rifts
    Hand Lab does.
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,836 Valuable Player
    edited June 28
    Wildt said:
    RuneSR2 said:
    Aperture Hand Lab and Vertigo 2 do not support Rifts
    Hand Lab does.

    But not officially according to the SteamVR website - but I know the devs explained how you could get it working using Touch (Reddit Oculus post yesterday). 

    https://store.steampowered.com/app/868020/Aperture_Hand_Lab/

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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • WildtWildt Posts: 1,936 Valuable Player
    Just saw that Vertigo trailer.. I know I'm a picky old fart, but visually it was disappointing to me.
    Stuff like that stone/lava monster simply z-buffer clipping into the ground. It's 2019 for crying out loud, and this is supposed to wow people?
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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    edited June 28
    Wildt said:
    Just saw that Vertigo trailer.. I know I'm a picky old fart, but visually it was disappointing to me.
    Stuff like that stone/lava monster simply z-buffer clipping into the ground. It's 2019 for crying out loud, and this is supposed to wow people?
    Yea I saw that too. Gave me some World of Warcraft flashbacks lol. I never played Vertigo 1 but I've seen it hyped. Anyone here play it? 
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    edited June 28
    The Vertigo Dev answered the question here - 

    I'm actually a solo developer, with a couple friends who do art and concept work. It sounds cool, but it becomes less cool when you learn how many hours of my life I've dumped into this thing 😂

    Fully compatible with vive, rift, and WMR through the new SteamVR input system!

  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    edited June 28
    Some through the lens shots - 



    Actually encouraged by the colors shown here and the SDE looks minimal.

    Also it has been confirmed that Lone Echo works with Index through Re-Vive. Just has a menu problem and you have to use the left controller. 
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