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Oh the index irony of it all.

inovatorinovator Posts: 2,235 Valuable Player
It's ironic that a few members on the fence about getting the rift s because of the problems it had preordered the index instead. I understand many members did that because of the better specs as well. Here is something from a recent article:

The VR controllers built to pair with the Valve Index Headsetare seeing widespread reports of a defect since their launch in June. According to Index Controller buyers, the two controllers’ joysticks are malfunctioning when the joystick is tilted and pressed like a button. Specifically, if the joystick is fully moved in a cardinal direction, it either requires significant pressure to recognize it’s been pressed or won’t recognize its been pressed whatsoever. The defect in the Valve Index Controllers will unfortunately not be corrected soon.


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Comments

  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,353 Valuable Player
    All three headsets have had fucked up launches, although the Rift S issues will be fixed with a software or firmware update rather than needing a recall like the Reverb and Index.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

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  • dburnedburne Posts: 3,173 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:
    All three headsets have had fucked up launches, although the Rift S issues will be fixed with a software or firmware update rather than needing a recall like the Reverb and Index.
    Once I finally figured out after several days  what was causing my black screen issue, mine has been quite good. And I even returned the first one for replacement at Amazon.

    So after I got the replacement and found I was still having the same issue, I set out to find out why. After a few days of trial and error I finally found out that if I had both my monitors on, I would get black screen in the headset after initial use. If I disabled the secondary monitor leaving only Monitor 1 on, no more blackscreens.
    I had been dealing with support on this for about two weeks, and advised them of  my findings and suggested they really look into this as I felt there may be many others experiencing the same. But Support told me I was likely a rare case but was glad I found a way around it and to take care.

    After each update to the PTC I give it another try just to check, and so far it still happens same as it did to me. So I just disable Monitor 2 when I use VR. 
    No telling how many folks out there that have multiple monitors and experience the same give up and return their Rift S for something else or give up on VR.
    So now I enjoy it very much with only the very occasional very brief white flash..
    But yeah all these new headsets have issues for sure, I certainly should not have to reduce my monitor to one just to run Rift S, but I do.

    I had been thinking about picking up Reverb for my flight sims, not now at least until they iron those issues out.  Index I have considered but just not sure I want to lay out that kind of money just for a couple of flight sims. Not sure the gain I would get would be worth the dollars spent.  I want for sure to keep the Rift S I have for my Oculus games I have now and to come.
     
    Don

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  • ohgrantohgrant Posts: 296
    Nexus 6
     Funny when some people get worked up over other peoples buying decisions.   :*
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  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,033 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:
    All three headsets have had fucked up launches, although the Rift S issues will be fixed with a software or firmware update rather than needing a recall like the Reverb and Index.

    Well said - I would also add the Pimax launch after CES as being a bit of a dogs breakfast.
    One Youtuber succinctly put it that after all this time, it seems that no one learned any lessons on QA for headsets, spending more time internally than throwing it open to the VR community to help them over the bumps. Seems that the echo-chamber mentality too testing and development is prevalent with all the big four! Those that still have jobs that is!
    P6ftmuw.jpg
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  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,885 Valuable Player
    inovator said:

    According to Index Controller buyers, the two controllers’ joysticks are malfunctioning when the joystick is tilted and pressed like a button. Specifically, if the joystick is fully moved in a cardinal direction, it either requires significant pressure to recognize it’s been pressed or won’t recognize its been pressed whatsoever. The defect in the Valve Index Controllers will unfortunately not be corrected soon.


    Why would you ever need to tilt and press the joystick at the same time? I may remember one game that requires you to click the joystick and move. I think it was Fallout 4VR. But overall it's a pretty rare action. 
    i7 6700k 2080ti   Rift-S, Index
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,235 Valuable Player
    I don't know what they mean by it but the company admitted there was,a problem. If I spent 1 k on that it would be instant refund.
  • SpuzzumSpuzzum Posts: 843
    3Jane
    edited July 2019
    MowTin said:
    inovator said:

    According to Index Controller buyers, the two controllers’ joysticks are malfunctioning when the joystick is tilted and pressed like a button. Specifically, if the joystick is fully moved in a cardinal direction, it either requires significant pressure to recognize it’s been pressed or won’t recognize its been pressed whatsoever. The defect in the Valve Index Controllers will unfortunately not be corrected soon.


    Why would you ever need to tilt and press the joystick at the same time? I may remember one game that requires you to click the joystick and move. I think it was Fallout 4VR. But overall it's a pretty rare action. 

    To run. Press forward to move forward, but press in while tilted forward and it makes you run, not just walk. But not clicking is the least of the issues...tilting forward with the right thumbstick to teleport, and it teleports you before you even let go of the thumbstick. It loses contact when pushed forward, thus thinking you've let go of the thumbstick, signalling that's where you want to teleport to, including whatever direction you want to face once teleported.
  • SpuzzumSpuzzum Posts: 843
    3Jane
    edited July 2019
    double post...sorry
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,999 Valuable Player
    edited July 2019
    MowTin said:
    Why would you ever need to tilt and press the joystick at the same time?

    I guess you never played SkyrimVR?

    This is the primary way to Sprint and do certain Power Attacks. And this is Valve's AAA VR Title. I can't believe they botched properly supporting their own VR Software money-maker when developing the Knuckles.

    2019 is the year of head-up-arse syndrome for VR. And not just for Valve and their idiotic implementation of Knuckles vs SkryimVR. We have to also put Oculus on blast here. The Rift-S was released with tracking blind-spots that completely contradict the features of its best Software Exclusives: The Echo Series.

    Both Valve and Oculus released Hardware that, by design, screws up the functionality of their best Software. The year 2020 will be the year of "apologies" and "do-overs" in VR. FFS.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,999 Valuable Player
    edited July 2019
    inovator said:
    It's ironic that a few members on the fence about getting the rift s because of the problems it had preordered the index instead.

    Yeah, it's strange that past experiences are not taken in to consideration. The HTC Vive, WMR, and Pimax taught us a lot. But not everyone learned the same lesson. Or perhaps some people need to learn the lesson first-hand?

    There is actually one forum member who posted their "goodbye" and seems to have stuck with it. They went with the Valve Index and left Oculus products. And they did it proper, by leaving the official Oculus forums. In truth, I never particularly liked that forum member, but that was probably the one time I respected them. If you're gonna "jump ship" then don't half-ass it.


    The defect in the Valve Index Controllers will unfortunately not be corrected soon.

    Correct. This is a hardware defect that cannot be easily, properly, and thoroughly corrected by Software.

    This is the one advantage that Oculus has with their Rift-S issues over the Valve Index. Since Oculus was smart enough to heavily invest in their "software tracking algorithms," they can effectively compensate for tracking issues caused by Inside-Out Tracking accuracy. There is very little Valve can do to compensate for their blowhard design of the Thumbstick.

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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,353 Valuable Player
    I sometimes wonder how these designers get paid for just plain bad design. You see bad design all the time in so many different industries, it just baffles me.

    They must teach bad design in Universities on purpose for some reason.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,235 Valuable Player
    Zenbane said:
    inovator said:
    It's ironic that a few members on the fence about getting the rift s because of the problems it had preordered the index instead.

    Yeah, it's strange that past experiences are not taken in to consideration. The HTC Vive, WMR, and Pimax taught us a lot. But not everyone learned the same lesson. Or perhaps some people need to learn the lesson first-hand?

    There is actually one forum member who posted their "goodbye" and seems to have stuck with it. They went with the Valve Index and left Oculus products. And they did it proper, by leaving the official Oculus forums. In truth, I never particularly liked that forum member, but that was probably the one time I respected them. If you're gonna "jump ship" then don't half-ass it.


    The defect in the Valve Index Controllers will unfortunately not be corrected soon.

    Correct. This is a hardware defect that cannot be easily, properly, and thoroughly corrected by Software.

    This is the one advantage that Oculus has with their Rift-S issues over the Valve Index. Since Oculus was smart enough to heavily invest in their "software tracking algorithms," they can effectively compensate for tracking issues caused by Inside-Out Tracking accuracy. There is very little Valve can do to compensate for their blowhard design of the Thumbstick.

    Until you mentioned it I forgot about that member and his nasty attitude. I didn't wish  the other members that went to index bad lucked. I hoped it worked for them. But that member you mentioned deserved what he got with his attitude. It makes me lmao.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,989 Valuable Player
    edited July 2019
    I'm not on the fence anymore because I just won't be purchasing any of these VR headsets until all the problems are sorted out on all of them. I want my warranty to start when everything is in good working order. I'm not waiting for fixes while my warranty ticks down on faulty devices.
    Valve index I've already eliminated due to the glare, but that's not a fault that's just me not liking this. They don't have problems with all of their controllers though. Just like Rift S doesn't have blank screens and white flashes in all of the headsets.
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,311 Valuable Player
     
    I’m glad you are happy some people are having difficulty with their new purchase. Not sure it needed a whole thread to gloat about it when there is an index thread below?
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,999 Valuable Player
    edited July 2019
     
    I’m glad you are happy some people are having difficulty with their new purchase. Not sure it needed a whole thread to gloat about it when there is an index thread below?

    If you don't like the topic then opt out of the discussion. You just attacked the poster instead of addressing the issue.

    I see nothing wrong with a new thread when we consider that the first Index thread was closed due to strong opinions. If the OP had posted this in the existing Index thread then it would likely be considered going against the "stay on topic" request.
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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,311 Valuable Player
    edited July 2019
    Actually I agree with you Zenbane. Apologies please carry on.
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,311 Valuable Player
    edited July 2019
    You would have hoped they would have learnt their lesson from Oculus and HP. I let my reserve go and will wait for confirmation the quality has improved. I hope they replace yours and its good to hear apart from that you are enjoying it.


     
  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 6,735 Volunteer Moderator
    Actually I agree with you Zenbane. Apologies please carry on.
    Respect.
    A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.

  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,235 Valuable Player
    edited July 2019
    Zenbane said:
     
    I’m glad you are happy some people are having difficulty with their new purchase. Not sure it needed a whole thread to gloat about it when there is an index thread below?

    If you don't like the topic then opt out of the discussion. You just attacked the poster instead of addressing the issue.

    I see nothing wrong with a new thread when we consider that the first Index thread was closed due to strong opinions. If the OP had posted this in the existing Index thread then it would likely be considered going against the "stay on topic" request.
    I have said on the index post I wish those that get it, good luck and that I hope it works out for them. (Including you) every launch success is good for vrs future, even gor those that don't buy that specific product. The index control problem is vr news that is interesting to many members. Im not happy that knuckles is a hardware problem and hope it is taken care of soon.
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,311 Valuable Player
    Monday pre-coffee is a bad time for me :) Apologies again.
  • RattyUKRattyUK Posts: 1,108
    Wintermute
    Monday pre-coffee is a bad time for me :) Apologies again.
    Any morning pre-coffee for me :)
    I wonder if most family murders happen in the morning pre-coffee....
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  • jabjab Posts: 221
    Nexus 6
    While the Index thumbstick is indeed a real problem, I am not sure I would be gloating when you look at the numerous Rift-S problems. So I would say the Index still has a leg up on the Rift-S when it comes to release issues.
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,235 Valuable Player
    Monday pre-coffee is a bad time for me :) Apologies again.
    Thanks i have done the same. 
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,235 Valuable Player
    jab said:
    While the Index thumbstick is indeed a real problem, I am not sure I would be gloating when you look at the numerous Rift-S problems. So I would say the Index still has a leg up on the Rift-S when it comes to release issues.
    Before you call it gloating u should really read all the posts
     I doubt you did that.
  • jabjab Posts: 221
    Nexus 6
    edited July 2019
    Sure, but might I suggest maybe you should also read your own first post and thread title?
    And regardless, the reported Index issues are still rather trivial compared to the problems some Rift-S users are struggling with. So the "irony of it all" is still lost on me.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,999 Valuable Player
    edited July 2019
    jab said:
    Sure, but might I suggest maybe you should also read your own first post and thread title?
    And regardless, the reported Index issues are still rather trivial compared to the problems some Rift-S users are struggling with. So the "irony of it all" is still lost on me.

    You are quite wrong. The Rift-S issues can be solved by software, whereas the Index issues are at the hardware level. You are firing off spurious protests without regard for the details of these situations. If you would take the time to research these details, then the "irony of it all" wouldn't be lost on  you.
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  • jabjab Posts: 221
    Nexus 6
    edited July 2019
    How much do want to bet the white static flashes/black out problem in Rift-S isn't a hardware problem? More specifically a cable problem.. And some of the inside-out tracking problems can only be mitigated to a certain degree with software.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,999 Valuable Player
    edited July 2019
    jab said:
    How much do want to bet the white static flashes/black out problem in Rift-S isn't a hardware problem? More specifically a cable problem.

    A replacement cable doesn't require re-manufacturing the entire product. The problem with the Index Knuckles revolving around the Thumbstick can't be fixed with Software nor can be RMA'd; no replacement. Valve would have to completely redesign and re-manufacture the Knuckles.

    This is a huge difference.

    And some of the inside-out tracking problems can only be mitigated to a certain degree with software.

    Those "mitigations" have yielded very positive and consumer acceptable results. So your point is moot.

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  • jabjab Posts: 221
    Nexus 6
    ehh.. Have we been reading/watching the same reports? The thumbstick fix is to add a slightly longer pin in the next production batch of knuckles. And the near camera tracking fix in only good for a short duration (dead reckoning), you stil cannot keep it there for a long time (sniping, boxing guard etc).
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,999 Valuable Player
    edited July 2019
    jab said:
    ehh.. Have we been reading/watching the same reports? The thumbstick fix is to add a slightly longer pin in the next production batch of knuckles.

    That's a re-manufacturing of a product. Thanks for proving my point.


    And the near camera tracking fix in only good for a short duration (dead reckoning), you stil cannot keep it there for a long time (sniping, boxing guard etc).

    This contradicts the reports I've seen for Rift-S use of Onward and Pavlov. But I'm sure we can get a Rift-S user to confirm.

    Regardless, there is no short-term fix for the Knuckles, as you just admitted: It requires re-manufacturing a new batch. That proves that the Rift-S situation is better than the Index situation, which is another part of... the irony of it all.

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