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Touch vs Index controllers and why I prefer Touch

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  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,606
    Project 2501

    From my personal experience I see zero difference in accuracy between old and new Touch.

    I have my VR setup in my home office. I have a desk and an office chair. 

    So if I'm playing seated, my chair and desk can sometimes create spots that occluded from the cameras. With the Rift-S inside out tracking, I have none of those issues.

    Of course with the base stations, you don't have to worry about your controller being too close to your face or other problems. 
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,048 Valuable Player
    This reminds me of ... something... Oh, well, it slipped my mind :blush:

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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,553 Valuable Player

    From my personal experience I see zero difference in accuracy between old and new Touch.

    There's lost tracking if too close to the headset which I think is a different issue and in practice this only happens when I scratch my face when holding the controllers. I also don't put my hands behind my back much!

    Different areas of occlusion too of course. The outside in Touch are occluded when something is between them an the cameras, the inside-out Touches get occluded when one hand is between the other and the headset. Again, in practice, this only happens when a hand is too near to the headset.

    I had only 2 sensors with CV1 so occlusion was happening all the time, completely impractical for anything other than forward facing and I believe people who say inside-out is better than 3 sensors.

    But that's occlusion. Accuracy... no difference that I can make out.

    I use 3 sensors and it is much better then inside out tracking if you place the sensors correctly. The sensors need to be placed in 3 corners of you room about 1ft to 2ft above your head. Have one camera at the front pointing towards the floor and the other camera at the front pointing at your head. I have the camera behind me pointing at my head to and my tracking is just about flawless.
    I say just about flawless because when I go right into the corners of the room I lose tracking. This is only because I am right under the camera's though. However, I never have any reason to go right into the corners of my room when using my CV1 for any game.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,376 Valuable Player
    edited August 9

    Agreed that there is a difference between Occlusion and Accuracy. If we start to incorporate everything that impacts accuracy in a general sense, then we get in to some fuzzy areas on both products.

    For example, the problem with Index's Thumbstick does impact the accuracy of properly moving around in VR using Locomotion. Even the accuracy of Teleportation is impacted by the issue, among other things. The Valve Knuckles Thumbstick is negatively impacting accuracy in far worse ways than anything either version of Oculus Touch has ever maintained.

    About a week ago, Valve released a "workaround" to address this issue:
    https://uploadvr.com/valve-index-thumbstick-workaround/

    As of now, there are no needed work-arounds for the accuracy of the new Oculus Touch controllers. The only thing we have to look forward to is an increase in the functionality of the Tracking Algorithms for software-based tracking to help address Occlusion factors that come with the current Inside-Out tracking implementation.

    Lastly, the Valve Knuckles do have known tracking accuracy issues when trying to track all 5 fingers. The tracking accuracy isn't always reliable, and we can read comments about this on reddit:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/c7ttbc/finger_tracking_issues_heres_a_quick/

    So if we look at "accuracy" from multiple angles, the Valve Knuckles are the least accuracy controller on the market. At least in their current state.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,376 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:
    I use 3 sensors and it is much better then inside out tracking if you place the sensors correctly. The sensors need to be placed in 3 corners of you room about 1ft to 2ft above your head. Have one camera at the front pointing towards the floor and the other camera at the front pointing at your head. I have the camera behind me pointing at my head to and my tracking is just about flawless.
    I say just about flawless because when I go right into the corners of the room I lose tracking. This is only because I am right under the camera's though. However, I never have any reason to go right into the corners of my room when using my CV1 for any game.
    You are describing "occlusion," not "accuracy."
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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,027 Volunteer Moderator

    MowTin said:

    From my personal experience I see zero difference in accuracy between old and new Touch.

    I have my VR setup in my home office. I have a desk and an office chair. 

    So if I'm playing seated, my chair and desk can sometimes create spots that occluded from the cameras. With the Rift-S inside out tracking, I have none of those issues.

    Of course with the base stations, you don't have to worry about your controller being too close to your face or other problems. 

    I'm also using Rift in a small home-office and had the exact same problems... if controllers went below desk level or I swivelled my seat too much, tracking lost. And it happened all the time. I'm using the Quest in a larger play area so have the benefit of testing inside-out in both scenarios.

    Whether in a small or large play area with furniture spread around, inside-out tracks your controllers right into the corners of your room, down beside the sofa... everywhere, and accuracy doesn't change as they're always within arms reach of the sensors.

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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,027 Volunteer Moderator
    RuneSR2 said:
    This reminds me of ... something... Oh, well, it slipped my mind :blush:


    I was a bit disappointed this was only half a film... I was expecting an ending. I guess these days, multi-parters are the lucrative thing.
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,048 Valuable Player
    edited August 9
    Well, I used old Touch and the 3 sensors yesterday - and I've got first hand experience using the Knuckles. You can read tons of stuff about Knuckles, but it may be worth very little until you try to use Knuckles - and not just for a day or two, but for weeks.
    It's my experience that Knuckles have better tracking than old Touch, and I don't experience occlusions - but that may of course depend on your play area (furniture etc.). I like that Valve using only 2 base stations are able to provide better tracking that using 3 sensors (CV1). I can hold stuff on my back for hours if needed, it's never a problem. 
    Valve constantly updates the software - last night new firmware arrived for the base stations. I spent a lot of time in the garden yesterday, never once noticed faulty finger tracking - btw, new version of the game has full Index support.  In case you experience faulty finger tracking, you can just drum your fingers across the handle to adjust the dynamic calibration. 



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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,027 Volunteer Moderator
    Yep I definitely wouldn't attempt to make a judgement on Knuckles accuracy or occlusion vs anything as I haven't used them, I'll leave that to those that have.
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,048 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    This reminds me of ... something... Oh, well, it slipped my mind :blush:


    I was a bit disappointed this was only half a film... I was expecting an ending. I guess these days, multi-parters are the lucrative thing.

    Just bought the 4K steel book - I certainly hope it's a great movie  :# ;)
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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,071 Valuable Player
    If you Had 2 sensors probably why you didn’t notice much difference as two sensors had a lot blind spots. i have three and I simply don’t have to worry about too close, behind the back etc. Playing onward with two was a pain.

    Seen enough first hand accounts of its issues on here. I am sure it’s as good as that kind of tracking can be at the moment, I see cosmos is adding another camera for the close issues so maybe I could be convinced if it was included with a great headset.


  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,027 Volunteer Moderator
    RuneSR2 said:

    Just bought the 4K steel book - I certainly hope it's a great movie  :# ;)
    It's a good film, I do like an ending though. When you get to my age you forget the first part by the time the second one's released.
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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,027 Volunteer Moderator
    If you Had 2 sensors probably why you didn’t notice much difference as two sensors had a lot blind spots. i have three and I simply don’t have to worry about too close, behind the back etc. Playing onward with two was a pain.

    Seen enough first hand accounts of its issues on here. I am sure it’s as good as that kind of tracking can be at the moment, I see cosmos is adding another camera for the close issues so maybe I could be convinced if it was included with a great headset.


    Well I'm just talking about accuracy and it's definitely as good.

    As far as occlusion, my living room is probably below average size and with large leather sofa and chair (and now a piano), 3 sensors wouldn't have coped, no-matter where they'd have been placed.

    I'd go so far as to say accuracy is slightly improved for Medium now, where your hands are making small movements and not relying on cameras some distance away. There was a problem with what I believe may have been over aggressive controller stabilisation whereby if you moved the controllers very slowly, they'd stop until moved a little more. That got fixed some time back though.

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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,376 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    Well, I used old Touch and the 3 sensors yesterday - and I've got first hand experience using the Knuckles. You can read tons of stuff about Knuckles, but it may be worth very little until you try to use Knuckles - and not just for a day or two, but for weeks.

    It still seems like you are trying a bit too hard to contradict the OP's assessment. Also, if we look at both Index Megathreads, you were one of the top posters making tons of judgements about the Index based solely on reading tons of stuff well before you received your Knuckles. I lost count of how many posts you made with quotes, articles, and videos all praising Index and the Knuckles. And long before you had tried them for a single second; let alone days or weeks.

    The issues that MowTin discusses are things that I've previously read about from other Index users on both reddit and Facebook. And I don't recall you ever really addressing these issues. Instead you seem rather enthusiastic about working around the issues. Which is great for you. If you really like the product and are willing to overlook its flaws, then that's a fabulous thing.

    But you probably aren't going to be effective at counter-pointing an unbiased analysis if you allow your enthusiasm to overshadow everything else.
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,048 Valuable Player
    edited August 9
    Admitted, this was quite funny, lol (but not sure Touch is better ;-)

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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,553 Valuable Player
    edited August 9
    The 3 sensors setup is far better if you have space in your room. Inside out is obviously better if you have pianos and other things in the way etc. My 3 sensor setup is very accurate and is much better then inside out tracking, but I have the space to do the 3 sensor setup properly.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,048 Valuable Player
    edited August 9
    Zenbane said:

    Agreed that there is a difference between Occlusion and Accuracy. If we start to incorporate everything that impacts accuracy in a general sense, then we get in to some fuzzy areas on both products.

    For example, the problem with Index's Thumbstick does impact the accuracy of properly moving around in VR using Locomotion. Even the accuracy of Teleportation is impacted by the issue, among other things. The Valve Knuckles Thumbstick is negatively impacting accuracy in far worse ways than anything either version of Oculus Touch has ever maintained.

    About a week ago, Valve released a "workaround" to address this issue:
    https://uploadvr.com/valve-index-thumbstick-workaround/

    As of now, there are no needed work-arounds for the accuracy of the new Oculus Touch controllers. The only thing we have to look forward to is an increase in the functionality of the Tracking Algorithms for software-based tracking to help address Occlusion factors that come with the current Inside-Out tracking implementation.

    Lastly, the Valve Knuckles do have known tracking accuracy issues when trying to track all 5 fingers. The tracking accuracy isn't always reliable, and we can read comments about this on reddit:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/c7ttbc/finger_tracking_issues_heres_a_quick/

    So if we look at "accuracy" from multiple angles, the Valve Knuckles are the least accuracy controller on the market. At least in their current state.

    I fully respect MowTin's opinion even if I may not agree with everything - maybe because my hands are different, maybe because I have other preferences. Not everybody may like the Index - but I like it, and of course there's no perfect HMD, each has pros and cons. As I wrote before, personal preferences may mean a lot when choosing a new HMD, my biggest issues with the Index are the lack of the deep oled blacks due to the LCD and maybe also the lack of the deep CV1 bass - but it's definitely not the Knuckles.  
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,376 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    Admitted, this was quite funny, lol (but not sure Touch is better ;-)


    Hopefully you don't start mass linking Videos in this thread similar to the Index thread. That is not an effective way to add value to the discussion.

    But I'll take the bait and address your comment: Yes, Touch is definitely better. I have typed on my keyboard a ton over the last 3 years while wearing my Rift and Touch. It's because of the wrist straps. It's easy to just let go and let the controllers hang off to the sides. You don't even need to keep them on your wrist, as you can easily let them go anywhere on your desk, use your mouse n keyboard, and pick them back up. All without removing your HMD.

    This is not done easily with Knuckles since they must stay strapped to your entire hand.

    Try again, Rune. lol
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,376 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:
    The 3 sensors setup is far better if you have space in your room. Inside out is obviously better if you have pianos and other things in the way etc. My 3 sensor setup is very accurate and is much better then inside out tracking, but I have the space to do the 3 sensor setup properly.

    No, you are still just talking about occlusion. The accuracy of the tracking is no different between my 3 sensor setup with Rift CV1, and my Oculus Quest. Tracking accuracy is consistent amongst both. The only difference is with occlusion. You seem to be continuously confusing the two.
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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,553 Valuable Player
    @Zenbane -Doesn't occlusion and accuracy go hand in hand even though they have separate meanings? Like if you are using both controllers and one blocks the other causing occlusion you will lose accuracy? I noticed I lost accuracy when Occlusion occurred with inside out tracking, but I've never noticed it with outside in because I don't wander into the corners of my room where occlusion occured.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,027 Volunteer Moderator
    RedRizla said:
    @Zenbane -Doesn't occlusion and accuracy go hand in hand even though they have separate meanings? Like if you are using both controllers and one blocks the other causing occlusion you will lose accuracy? I noticed I lost accuracy when Occlusion occurred with inside out tracking, but I've never noticed it with outside in because I don't wander into the corners of my room where occlusion occured.

    Ok so you don't wander into areas where occlusion occurs but can put your hands as close to the headset as you like (provided your head isn't occluding the controller and cameras). I don't put my hands too close to the headset but can wonder wherever and reach down into whatever corner I like (provided my hands are in front of me).

    I'd say it's difficult to say which is best from that alone. Probably dependent on the game/experience being played. Lets just say you prefer the former, I prefer the latter. Mainly because I don't have to have a dedicated VR room and I don't have to be concerned about where I wonder or position myself... I may be wrong but I reckon that could be the more common use scenario.

    Anyway, maybe we can say it's as close to a draw as we're likely to get.

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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,553 Valuable Player
    edited August 9
    @DaftnDirect - Yes, it's like I said earlier, if you don't have a VR room inside out tracking is good. But if you have a VR room I think the 3 sensor setup is far better. When I tried inside out tracking it wasn't just controllers close to the headset that was a problem for me (now fixed), it was the fact the controllers don't track behind your back and sometime the controller close to you would block the controller further away from you. That's why I'm saying the 3 sensor setup is much better.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,027 Volunteer Moderator
    edited August 9
    RedRizla said:
    @DaftnDirect - Yes, it's like I said earlier, if you don't have a VR room inside out tracking is good. But if you have a VR room I think the 3 sensor setup is far better. When I tried inside out tracking it wasn't just controllers close to the headset that was a problem for me (now fixed), it was the fact the controllers don't track behind your back and sometime the controller close to you would block the controller further away from you. That's why I'm saying the 3 sensor setup is much better.

    Yes and no, it depends how much each of those scenarios is likely to occur and in what games you're likely to play that cause them to occur. Even VR rooms have things in them that occlude unless completely empty and even empty rooms have areas that cause occlusion when bending into a corner for example... the cameras have cones of detection after all.

    Anyway, enough said.

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  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 3,692 Valuable Player
    As one of the few here who actually has both controllers and uses them daily (looking at them right now), I just think it's nice to be able to use either for different experiences. No need to talk down one over the other. Both function as expected in their relevant fields.  I think possibly the biggest issue for me is old touch design versus new touch design especially with regards to the upward ring placement of the new design. I think I prefer the feel and comfort of the old touch controllers when pitting those two together, but I digress.


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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,553 Valuable Player
    edited August 9
    As one of the few here who actually has both controllers and uses them daily (looking at them right now), I just think it's nice to be able to use either for different experiences. No need to talk down one over the other. Both function as expected in their relevant fields.  I think possibly the biggest issue for me is old touch design versus new touch design especially with regards to the upward ring placement of the new design. I think I prefer the feel and comfort of the old touch controllers when pitting those two together, but I digress.
    I found the CV1 controllers much better. For some reason I would constantly keep putting the Rift S controllers in the wrong hands :D
    Also, when putting the Rift S controllers down on on my desk they would roll about instead of just sitting nicely on my desk like the CV1 controllers did. That's maybe because I didn't get chance to get used to them though because I didn't have Rift S long before returning it.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,027 Volunteer Moderator
    edited August 9

    OK, just for the halibut I've been doing an occlusion test and I may have been maligning the current firmware/controller capabilities. Will post an unedited vid here when I've sorted out YouTube and my video software.

    Edit: and if we're talking ring positions, I've got no preference, as long as it's where I last checked it was.

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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,071 Valuable Player
    If it’s losing your hands it’s not accurately tracking them, seems simple to me.


  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,376 Valuable Player
    No need to talk down one over the other.

    I have to mention it buddy. But talking down one over the other didn't seem to bother you much when you started that infamous Pimax Megathread. Talking down one over the other was all the rage back then, it seems!
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,376 Valuable Player
    edited August 9
    If it’s losing your hands it’s not accurately tracking them, seems simple to me.


    Occlusion <> Tracking Accuracy

    When the Index controllers fail to accurately track fingers, it is not because the fingers were occluded. It is because the Index controllers suffer from accuracy issues. When a player pushes the Index Thumbstick forward to move and then tries to click it down to perform an action and it fails, it is not a failure caused by some sort of controller occlusion, it is a failure as a result the Knuckles being designed poorly.

    Accuracy is measured by what is taking place when line-of-sight is kept. And in that regard, Knuckles have been reported to fail (e.g. bad finger tracking). But when you hide something from line-of-sight, that is occlusion, and has nothing to do with accuracy of tracking.

    Imagine if you are driving a car and someone is judging you by your accuracy. And then someone blind-folds you, and your accuracy gets so bad that you crash. Would it be fair for someone to say that you are a bad driver because you crashed while blind-folded? Because that's what you're saying here.
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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,027 Volunteer Moderator

    If it's occluded there's zero accuracy so if you want to call that less accurate then go ahead but I think it's more useful to describe occlusions in terms of reliability, not accuracy.

    If you point a camera in the wrong place it's not accurate. If you point it at the right place but have your finger over the lens, it's occluded.

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