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Touch vs Index controllers and why I prefer Touch

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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,041 Volunteer Moderator
    edited August 9

    OK occlusion test for the Rift-S... I've tried to put my hands near and over the cameras... below the headset... in line in front and so on. This is the first and only test so I've not picked a good test or edited anything. Have a look and comment. I can retest with different hand positions if you really want but it took longer to get onto youtube than I thought... maybe another tomorrow if needed (it's getting late).


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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,989 Valuable Player
    That puppy in that video on the last page is ADORABLE!!! :heart:

    I love doggies!  <3
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,041 Volunteer Moderator

    Just a post script to my video... I've added a comment in another thread regarding an issue when the controllers are kept pretty still and what appears to be then registered as not use, something akin to a sleep mode maybe.

    I used to have this problem when moving very slowly and it seemed to be fixed with a previous update but the issue does still happen when controllers are held very stead for a short time.

    This doesn't happen for me in any game but it's still there if I test for it. My guess is Oculus tweaked the settings but need another adjustment if anyone's still experiencing this. Perhaps add a slider so people can set there own sensitivity to registering no movement.

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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,069 Valuable Player

    Just a post script to my video... I've added a comment in another thread regarding an issue when the controllers are kept pretty still and what appears to be then registered as not use, something akin to a sleep mode maybe.

    I used to have this problem when moving very slowly and it seemed to be fixed with a previous update but the issue does still happen when controllers are held very stead for a short time.

    This doesn't happen for me in any game but it's still there if I test for it. My guess is Oculus tweaked the settings but need another adjustment if anyone's still experiencing this. Perhaps add a slider so people can set there own sensitivity to registering no movement.


    What happens if you hold your hands behind your back for let's say 30 - 60 seconds (where the cameras can't see your hands at all)? - Is the tracking system able to maintain some sort of "last known position" - or does something else happen? Tracking in front of the headset does look good in your video - soon Oculus may only need to focus on fixing the sound. 
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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,569 Valuable Player

    Just a post script to my video... I've added a comment in another thread regarding an issue when the controllers are kept pretty still and what appears to be then registered as not use, something akin to a sleep mode maybe.

    I used to have this problem when moving very slowly and it seemed to be fixed with a previous update but the issue does still happen when controllers are held very stead for a short time.

    This doesn't happen for me in any game but it's still there if I test for it. My guess is Oculus tweaked the settings but need another adjustment if anyone's still experiencing this. Perhaps add a slider so people can set there own sensitivity to registering no movement.

    Yes, I just saw that thread which just goes to show there are still problems with inside out tracking. I don't get any of that with my 3 sensor setup which is why I was saying I felt it was the better option if you have space in your room. In the 2 months since Oculus Rift S launched, I still haven't seen inside out tracking to be as good as a 3 sensor setup.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,041 Volunteer Moderator
    edited August 10

    Red, like I said in that thread and this it depends when and how often it happens as compared to how often and when issues arise with outside-on, you said you avoided areas where tracking was lost... I personally never experience the issue I've just described except when I've just tested for it outside of a game and with hands kept more still than I ever do in any game.

    You have to be balanced when comparing the tracking solutions not just focusing on each problem that gets posted on the forum as if it's universal.

    Plus the issue I've just described is neither occlusion nor accuracy related, it's settings relating to timing-out which needs addressing but is addressable.

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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,076 Valuable Player
    Looks like tracking improved a lot since launch from the video. Not that I want sensors but certainly don’t want to have to think about blind spots etc while in game.

    If Oculus produce a higher end headset I could be tempted.



  • OculusHomieOculusHomie Posts: 29
    Brain Burst
    Zenbane said:

    Agreed that there is a difference between Occlusion and Accuracy. If we start to incorporate everything that impacts accuracy in a general sense, then we get in to some fuzzy areas on both products.

    For example, the problem with Index's Thumbstick does impact the accuracy of properly moving around in VR using Locomotion. Even the accuracy of Teleportation is impacted by the issue, among other things. The Valve Knuckles Thumbstick is negatively impacting accuracy in far worse ways than anything either version of Oculus Touch has ever maintained.

    About a week ago, Valve released a "workaround" to address this issue:
    https://uploadvr.com/valve-index-thumbstick-workaround/

    As of now, there are no needed work-arounds for the accuracy of the new Oculus Touch controllers. The only thing we have to look forward to is an increase in the functionality of the Tracking Algorithms for software-based tracking to help address Occlusion factors that come with the current Inside-Out tracking implementation.

    Lastly, the Valve Knuckles do have known tracking accuracy issues when trying to track all 5 fingers. The tracking accuracy isn't always reliable, and we can read comments about this on reddit:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/c7ttbc/finger_tracking_issues_heres_a_quick/

    So if we look at "accuracy" from multiple angles, the Valve Knuckles are the least accuracy controller on the market. At least in their current state.
    I think you miss understand the finger tracking issue. There’s no hardware issue with Index controllers. It’s a problem when the controller expects your fingers in one position but they’ve moved slightly into another and start tracking the wrong finger. Either you reset your hand position or reset the controller to fix the anomaly. There are no specific sensors for each finger. They’re built with 87 sensors to cover different sized hands. The controllers learn your hand size and finger position. 


  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,569 Valuable Player
    edited August 10
    I know it's a different topic, but I just wish Oculus would support a higher end VR headset that used outside in tracking for those people who wanted it. I am looking to see what the HTC Cosmos can do, but I'm not sure if they could beat Oculus when it comes to getting inside out tracking to be spot on for everyone. Will be interesting to see what is said about the HTC Cosmos inside out tracking when it's launched.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,041 Volunteer Moderator
    edited August 10
    RuneSR2 said:
    What happens if you hold your hands behind your back for let's say 30 - 60 seconds (where the cameras can't see your hands at all)? - Is the tracking system able to maintain some sort of "last known position" - or does something else happen? Tracking in front of the headset does look good in your video - soon Oculus may only need to focus on fixing the sound. 

    I'm shortly going off to London so I'll post a vid on Monday of hands behind back if it helps.

    But tbh it's difficult to demonstrate that kind of thing on a vid as when they're behind your back you don't see that tracking is lost (which it is). I don't have a game that I'm aware of that would demonstrate lost tracking very well with something you're holding behind your back as it would just not be seen.

    I'd also prefer to stick with real-world gaming and experiences... I'll go through my library on Monday and see if there's something that picks up this kind of controller positioning. But I think it's pretty much the same as when I put my hand under my desk, completely out of site.... the position of the controller locks into the position it was last registered, the controller's internal movement sensors seem to position it correctly under the desk, then after a second or so it locks in that position but continues to register attitudinal movement, so even below the desk, out of sight, I can continue to rotate my hand in any direction.

    Then when pulling the controller out it snaps back into position as soon as line of sight is recovered. 

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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,569 Valuable Player
    edited August 10
    @DaftnDirect - Do you have a game that has a mirror in it? Would that show you were your hands are when held behind your back? VR Chat has a mirror in the bathroom :)
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,041 Volunteer Moderator
    edited August 10

    I'll have to come back to this on Monday Red... I'll see if I can dig out a webcam or something but like I say I'd prefer to stick to real gaming experiences.

    I understand you guys want to see the tracking limits though even if it's not real-world... I suppose I would too if I wasn't using them!

    Edit: I don't think I've ever posted a pic of myself, never mind webcam footage, well we'll see.

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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,076 Valuable Player
    edited August 10
    RedRizla said:
    I know it's a different topic, but I just wish Oculus would support a higher end VR headset that used outside in tracking for those people who wanted it. I am looking to see what the HTC Cosmos can do, but I'm not sure if they could beat Oculus when it comes to getting inside out tracking to be spot on for everyone. Will be interesting to see what is said about the HTC Cosmos inside out tracking when it's launched.
    Not sure it’s a different subject as one of the advantages of index is that you can use it with other headsets (with limitations)

    touch it’s a package so you have to want the headset as well.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,989 Valuable Player

    I'll have to come back to this on Monday Red... I'll see if I can dig out a webcam or something but like I say I'd prefer to stick to real gaming experiences.

    I understand you guys want to see the tracking limits though even if it's not real-world... I suppose I would too if I wasn't using them!

    Edit: I don't think I've ever posted a pic of myself, never mind webcam footage, well we'll see.


    It's okay, we don't need to see your ugly mug, just use the avatar editing thing. If I'm remembering correctly it has a mirror type thing in it. :p :D
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,379 Valuable Player
    edited August 10
    OculusHomie said:
    I think you miss understand the finger tracking issue.


    Not at all. I think you just misunderstood the comparison.

    There’s no hardware issue with Index controllers.

    That is incorrect. Here's one example:


    Either you reset your hand position or reset the controller to fix the anomaly.

    So you admit that there's an anomaly that requires a workaround to fix? Thanks for proving my point.


    There are no specific sensors for each finger.

    I never said that there was a specific sensor for each finger.


    They’re built with 87 sensors to cover different sized hands.

    And they still end up with anomalies that require resetting despite having 87 sensors? Sounds defective.


    The controllers learn your hand size and finger position.

    Not very well it seems.

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  • OculusHomieOculusHomie Posts: 29
    Brain Burst
    My iphone has finger print ID but if I don't put my finger on the button correctly it fails to unlock. Does this mean my phone is defective? If I listen to you it is, which means every iphone with print ID must be broken too because they all function the same way. Apple better do a recall, Zenbane logic strikes again.
  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 6,358 Volunteer Moderator
    And Atmos strikes again and soon to be struck again 👍
    A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.

  • OculusHomieOculusHomie Posts: 29
    Brain Burst
    edited August 10
    Techy111 said:
    And Atmos strikes again and soon to be struck again 👍
    Hmmm says the Oculus Mod who bought the HP Reverb! Two faced or double standards?
  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 6,358 Volunteer Moderator
    Didn't know I was tied into an exclusive contract Atmos. As for the Reverb, I don't own one. Have a read coz you're about to be gone...again.
    A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.

  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,379 Valuable Player
    edited August 10
    My iphone has finger print ID but if I don't put my finger on the button correctly it fails to unlock. Does this mean my phone is defective?

    This is because Biometrics has a margin of error by its very nature. It can never bee 100% perfect, and the struggle with any biometrics device is to balance the "false positives" with the "false negatives." Tracking in VR doesn't have to work this way because we have trackers and sensors.

    Now if you're argument is that Valve implemented a piece of VR hardware that shares the same faulty reliability as an Apple Phone's biometric system, then lmao - that's another example of how poorly designed Knuckles turned out to be.

    Apple better do a recall, Zenbane logic strikes again.

    Smart phones can be opened more than one way, and the function of a phone is not to merely open and close. Have you even used a smart phone before? That is different from Valve Knuckles, which function is to track. And if it can't track... then it's a fairly useless device. Simply put: If you can't open your phone with a fingerprint, then unlock it with a code. Whereas, if your Knuckles can't track your fingers, then you have a paper weight on your hands.

    So let's compare this to Oculus Touch: We can hold them more than one way, and even on opposite hands! They don't fail to track as a result. Unlike Knuckles which (according to you) fail to track if you put your finger down the wrong way.

    AV Forums better do a recall, Atmos logic strikes again.

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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,989 Valuable Player
    Dear Oculus, I've logged into the forums today to find that Atmos has been banned by the mods. Again. This is well out of order innit. Fuck you, I'm buying a Vive.
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,069 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:
    Dear Oculus, I've logged into the forums today to find that Atmos has been banned by the mods. Again. This is well out of order innit. Fuck you, I'm buying a Vive.
    Psst. Don't buy a Vive, get the Index, no matter what you've heard, it's got the best controllers on the planet, and I'll swear to that on my dead grandmother's grave if you want me to o:)
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  • SpuzzumSpuzzum Posts: 479
    Trinity
    As cool as it is being able to give someone the finger in VR, the finger tracking of the Index controllers is kind of useless, other than the grip sensitivity. You can't cross your fingers, or give the OK sign, so other than giving someone the middle finger, or sticking your pinkie out while sipping a cup of tea...then they're absolutely useless. I'd rather have the Touch.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,379 Valuable Player
    edited August 10
    RuneSR2 said:
    Psst. Don't buy a Vive, get the Index, no matter what you've heard, it's got the best controllers on the planet,

    It's funny when someone says, "not matter what you have heard," but then you expect someone to listen to you. lol

    It's nice that you love your Index, however, you are the same person who also said that Knuckles retail for less than Original Touch. And that proved to be 100% false.

    And you are also someone who values Super Sampling so much that you will give an otherwise great game a 1-star rating simply because you didn't approve of its Super Sampling implementation. Which means that you tend to overlook many factors when judging a product, making it hard to take your overall recommendations too serious.

    So if your plan is to claim that everyone else's opinion should be ignored, and only your opinion listened to... then you might not have the best track record for that. I would easily take MowTin's analysis of Index over yours simply because his is far less biased.
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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,989 Valuable Player
    I can't say an Index cos the original poster said he was getting a Vive ages ago. :D
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,069 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:
    I can't say an Index cos the original poster said he was getting a Vive ages ago. :D

    Understood, maybe we can just watch a short movie together then  ;)



    Or maybe 2 - just trying to show something I use on a daily basis without adding or subtracting anything :)



    There really isn't much to it, they just work. So does Touch, but these can do a lot more. Even my 11 year old son told me these were awesome, and I didn't even ask for his opinion. 
    Not gonna spend a lot of time arguing why people should use Knuckles, it's a free world, and some do prefer strawberry cake more than chocolate cake. But try them if you get the chance and see how they work - preferably in Moondust, I love to squeeze things :blush:

    Ps. It's a crazy longshot, but I couldn't help thinking there could be a tiny chance you'd like the hmd more than the Vive too.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,379 Valuable Player
    edited August 10
    RuneSR2 said:
    Not gonna spend a lot of time arguing why people should use Knuckles

    That is kind of what you have done in this thread though lol. And when the argument doesn't go your way, you just toss in YouTube videos. None of that is very convincing, and your attempt to counter point the OP's analysis has really fallen short.

    Since you like videos, here's one:



    One of the comments from an Index owner:
    "This is really bothering me. I have to run around games sideways. Complete immersion breaker."

    Running around games sideways? LMAO
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,069 Valuable Player
    edited August 11
    If  Knuckles don't work, get them RMA'ed. I don't run sideways. 

    Touch are starting to feel too small in my hands, Knuckels fit my hands better. 

    Also forgot the trackpads - these are quite cool and give tactile (haptic) feedback. First I though of the trackpads like some annoying Wands leftovers, but the trackpads work really great in for example Garden of the Sea. 

    How do we interact with one Touch controller? - Basically using a thumbstick (can be pressed down) and 5 buttons (2 x round, 1 x flat, 1 for index finger, 1 for grab). 
    How do we interact with one Index controller (Knuckles)? - Basically using a thumbstick (can be pressed down), 5 buttons (2 x round, 1 x flat, 1 for index finger, 1 long for grab), a trackpad with haptic feedback and the grab button is force sensitive. 

    More about the Knuckles here:

    "In games I've tried so far, they work like a better version of what Oculus Touch controllers aim for. The Touch controls always impressed me because they function like a standard game controller (buttons, triggers, analog sticks), but can sense finger proximity, allowing a finger to point, or giving a thumbs-up if I raise my thumb. The Oculus Touch only works for three fingers, though, and still requires holding the controller while moving those fingers. The Valve Index controls allow much freer finger motion [...] The Valve Index controllers can sense force as well as motion, so I can grip harder and have it register. Another game demo, Moondust, puts me on a moon surface where I pick up rocks, then crush them by squeezing -- or, grab a grenade and squeeze to trigger its timer. "

    https://www.cnet.com/news/valve-indexs-new-vr-controllers-feel-like-the-future-of-gaming/

    People should use the controllers they like the best - of course - to me the Index controllers work much better than old Touch. Actually old Touch is starting to feel really old - compared to the Index controllers. Or get both like I have - then you don't have to worry about missing out on anything ;)

    Gotta get me a new adventure game this Sunday...

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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,379 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    If  Knuckles don't work, get them RMA'ed. I don't run sideways.

    Or just don't buy Knuckles and enjoy some of the other superior products on the market.


    Touch are starting to feel too small in my hands

    Your Touch controllers are changing/morphing on their own? That's not normal lol

    Hand controllers shouldn't feel large/bulky.


    to me the Index controllers work much better than old Touch.

    Yeah, you have been saying that almost every page in this thread, after the OP said that he prefers Touch over Index. But again, you also falsely claimed that old Touch was more expensive than Index, and historically you have proven to overlook many features in a product as you fixate on just one aspect (e.g. only caring about Super Sampling in Software).

    So you can keep trying to argue and posting videos, but I still say that your recommendations appear one-sided and biased.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,379 Valuable Player
    Profundum does look fun, can't wait to try it with Rift and Touch Controllers, neither of which I have had to RMA in 3 years of constant use B)


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