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Touch vs Index controllers and why I prefer Touch

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  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,224
    Wintermute
    edited August 13
    Zenbane said:
    BTW, am I missing something, if there's anything wrong with the controllers wouldn't Valve just tell the manufacturer that works for them to fix it and then ship out all future additions of the controllers with the correct pins in the announce stick to fix the issue?

    Isn't it that simple?

    Valve has denied that this is a problem. They state that this is "by design." That's been the biggest point of criticism about this entire fiasco.


    Hmmmm, I wonder then...

    Perhaps they will say to the public "There is no issue" but then in the background they email through to factory and say "Please fix this ASAP going forwards?"

    Or is that just wishful thinking? lol

    EDIT: Well I've not had my email still, I'm still quite shocked because it's 13th August and I was quoted 28th August for delivery? But still no email to purchase? Madness!  :D

    EDIT 2: After reading their comments on that REDDIT post I have a question - Does the sticks not work at all to run? Or does it work sometimes?

    Rune where are you? Do you play Onward/Pavlov Rune? Do they work for you?
    UK: England - Leeds - - RTX 2080 - Make love, not war - See you in the Oasis!
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,118 Valuable Player
    Zenbane said:
    BTW, am I missing something, if there's anything wrong with the controllers wouldn't Valve just tell the manufacturer that works for them to fix it and then ship out all future additions of the controllers with the correct pins in the announce stick to fix the issue?

    Isn't it that simple?

    Valve has denied that this is a problem. They state that this is "by design." That's been the biggest point of criticism about this entire fiasco.


    Hmmmm, I wonder then...

    Perhaps they will say to the public "There is no issue" but then in the background they email through to factory and say "Please fix this ASAP going forwards?"

    Or is that just wishful thinking? lol

    EDIT: Well I've not had my email still, I'm still quite shocked because it's 13th August and I was quoted 28th August for delivery? But still no email to purchase? Madness!  :D
    Strange, also had August 31 deadline, but received full kit July 23. Did you order the full kit? - These seem to have highest priority.
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,224
    Wintermute
    edited August 13
    RuneSR2 said:
    Strange, also had August 31 deadline, but received full kit July 23. Did you order the full kit? - These seem to have highest priority.

    Yes mate full kit, I've had no emails at all.

    Do you think I should email Valve? I live in the UK btw.
    UK: England - Leeds - - RTX 2080 - Make love, not war - See you in the Oasis!
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,118 Valuable Player
    Zenbane said:
    BTW, am I missing something, if there's anything wrong with the controllers wouldn't Valve just tell the manufacturer that works for them to fix it and then ship out all future additions of the controllers with the correct pins in the announce stick to fix the issue?

    Isn't it that simple?

    Valve has denied that this is a problem. They state that this is "by design." That's been the biggest point of criticism about this entire fiasco.


    Hmmmm, I wonder then...

    Perhaps they will say to the public "There is no issue" but then in the background they email through to factory and say "Please fix this ASAP going forwards?"

    Or is that just wishful thinking? lol

    EDIT: Well I've not had my email still, I'm still quite shocked because it's 13th August and I was quoted 28th August for delivery? But still no email to purchase? Madness!  :D

    EDIT 2: After reading their comments on that REDDIT post I have a question - Does the sticks not work at all to run? Or does it work sometimes?

    Rune where are you? Do you play Onward/Pavlov Rune? Do they work for you?

    Everything works for me, so did it for Pyroth309. Index has the best tracking I ever experienced. I don't play Pavlov or Onward, but I have no problems sprinting in Arizona Sunshine, which requires that I press down the thumbstick. All my buttons register using the Valve controller tool.
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,118 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    Strange, also had August 31 deadline, but received full kit July 23. Did you order the full kit? - These seem to have highest priority.

    Yes mate full kit, I've had no emails at all.

    Do you think I should email Valve? I live in the UK btw.
    Yes, I'd contact them, this does seem strange.
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,421 Valuable Player
    edited August 13
    you have a number of times now, said he is deliberately lying


    That is not true, and I correct you once. So I will just repost the correction:
    I never used the word "liar" at all. I think we should avoid getting personal by accusing people of things that they did not say.
    Here's what I actually said:
    "This is just another example of where your analysis comes off intentionally dishonest."
    The analysis, not the person, "comes off" as being intentionally dishonest.

    Happy to repeat the correction as often as you deem necessary.


    You may not intend it to sound like that but that is how it's coming across and it turns a friendly debate into a rather bitter one.

    I am addressing Rune's posts, and not him personally. Whereas you have continued to address me personally, which is far more unfriendly and bitter in tone. You should know better as well, since you and I have been here before.


    My point wasn't Runes is always right but he consistantly gives an honest opinion in his reviews to the best of his knowledge.  

    Since you are simply repeating yourself, I will also repeat the examples that prove otherwise. Examples that you clearly refuse to address as you continue to simply repeating yourself.

    I addressed some specific instances where Rune seems to have gone out of his way to alter the truth a bit:

    • Falsely claimed Knuckles were cheaper than original Touch, and intentionally used Foreign Currency to misrepresent the truth.
    • Described the "direction thumbclick" situation completely opposite to what is being repeatedly reported.
    • Downplayed the impact of this issue by stating that few locomotion games require Thumbstick click functionality, despite the long history of the opposite being true.

    Again, happy to repeat the correction as often as you deem necessary.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,224
    Wintermute
    edited August 13
    OMFG guys!!!!!!!!

    OMG!!!

    I just checked my emails, I don't know how this could have happened!!!!!!

    I got an email on 20th July and it says my reservation will expire in 7 days! So now I've missed! it

    I'm sure I checked my emails all time as well, almost every day! But I just did a search now for Valve Index and it found the email straight away!!

    Jesus Christ!  :s :( :'( :#
    UK: England - Leeds - - RTX 2080 - Make love, not war - See you in the Oasis!
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,421 Valuable Player
    edited August 13
    Hmmmm, I wonder then...

    Perhaps they will say to the public "There is no issue" but then in the background they email through to factory and say "Please fix this ASAP going forwards?"

    Or is that just wishful thinking? lol

    It is possible, but we have to go by what we know, right?
    Valve stated publicly that the Knuckles are working as intended. Multiple people have RMA's and received Knuckles with the same defects.

    @RuneSR2 I have a challenge for you. Can you post a video where you take BOTH Knuckle controllers and do the following with BOTH Thumbsticks:
    • Push forward, then click
    • Push backward, then click
    • Push left, then click
    • Push right, then click

    You have said on multiple occasions that your Thumbsticks work perfectly. I would like to see this proven when clicking on both of them in all directions. Which is how all Gamepads (and Oculus Touch) have worked for the last 20 years or so. Thanks in advance!
    ;)
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,118 Valuable Player
    edited August 13
    OMFG guys!!!!!!!!

    OMG!!!

    I just checked my emails, I don't know how this could have happened!!!!!!

    I got an email on 20th July and it says my reservation will expire in 7 days! So now I've missed! it

    I'm sure I checked my emails all time as well, almost every day! But I just did a search now for Valve Index and it found the email straight away!!

    Jesus Christ!  :s :( :'( :#
    Sad to hear, but do contact Valve - other users have experienced the same, if I remember correctly Valve support was quick to help.
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,224
    Wintermute
    Sweet baby Jesus!

    Yeah I'm going to email them anyway and tell them I didn't see the email until now, bit gutted!

    Maybe it's fate though telling me something with these issues.

    I think the thumbstick issue will be something that annoys me because I do play FPS games quite a lot in VR at the moment.
    UK: England - Leeds - - RTX 2080 - Make love, not war - See you in the Oasis!
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,118 Valuable Player
    Tyriel already made that video for you:



    Of course doesn't help those who experience problems like Sebastian, but hopefully it'll soon be fixed.
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,421 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    Tyriel already made that video for you:


    I am asking for you to do it, so that we can see if in fact your Knuckles perform them correctly. Both thumbsticks in all directions. I can understand if you don't want to make the video, since it could potentially showcase the flaw.
    ;)
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,421 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:



    Did you see that he has a problem when he clicks to the Left on one controller? While it may not be a major issue, it's still a problem and proof that it is not easily dismissed.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
  • WildtWildt Posts: 1,965 Valuable Player
    SkScotchegg said:

    EDIT 2: After reading their comments on that REDDIT post I have a question - Does the sticks not work at all to run? Or does it work sometimes?

    I saw an article or post somewhere mentioning Valve's plan to fix it in firmware/software by simply "faking" the click function. By that I mean making 100% joystick direction trigger the sprint function. So you'd go from 90% walking speed straight to sprint by tilting that small joystick a couple of extra degrees.
    PCVR: CV1 || 4 sensors || TPcast wireless adapter || MamutVR Gun stock V3
    PSVR: PS4 Pro || Move Controllers || Aim controller
    WMR: HP Reverb (arriving shortly)
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,421 Valuable Player
    Wildt said:
    SkScotchegg said:

    EDIT 2: After reading their comments on that REDDIT post I have a question - Does the sticks not work at all to run? Or does it work sometimes?

    I saw an article or post somewhere mentioning Valve's plan to fix it in firmware/software by simply "faking" the click function. By that I mean making 100% joystick direction trigger the sprint function. So you'd go from 90% walking speed straight to sprint by tilting that small joystick a couple of extra degrees.

    Thoughts on that?
    In my opinion, they are forcing everyone to re-learn the way this has functioned ever since Steam supported Gamepads. Not the smartest move. It also makes competitive play less effective. Playing a balancing act with a Thumbstick is less effective than the binary on/off switch that comes from clicking. Finding a "sweet spot" for walking/running/sprinting - especially during frantic situations - is a bit futile. Kind of like running around putting your sniper rifle on Zoom while everyone is in close quarters with their pistols.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
  • WildtWildt Posts: 1,965 Valuable Player
    edited August 13
    Imo it's it's a pityful knee jerk attempt at minimizing the size of the refund/RMA wave.

    The Workaround

    Valve has updated the default Index controller input bindings such that when a thumbstick is fully deflected in any direction, it is considered to be fully clicked. This is only applied for apps which have not set their own input bindings, which means mostly games which have not yet been updated to support Index.

    Users can manually enable this new setting for any app using the SteamVR input system’s Controller Settings panel. The exact deflection to activate the emulated clicking is fully configurable.

    So it seems I forgot that it's user configurable how much you have to move the stick to trigger the fake click.

    PCVR: CV1 || 4 sensors || TPcast wireless adapter || MamutVR Gun stock V3
    PSVR: PS4 Pro || Move Controllers || Aim controller
    WMR: HP Reverb (arriving shortly)
  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,224
    Wintermute
    Zenbane said:
    Wildt said:
    SkScotchegg said:

    EDIT 2: After reading their comments on that REDDIT post I have a question - Does the sticks not work at all to run? Or does it work sometimes?

    I saw an article or post somewhere mentioning Valve's plan to fix it in firmware/software by simply "faking" the click function. By that I mean making 100% joystick direction trigger the sprint function. So you'd go from 90% walking speed straight to sprint by tilting that small joystick a couple of extra degrees.

    Thoughts on that?
    In my opinion, they are forcing everyone to re-learn the way this has functioned ever since Steam supported Gamepads. Not the smartest move. It also makes competitive play less effective. Playing a balancing act with a Thumbstick is less effective than the binary on/off switch that comes from clicking. Finding a "sweet spot" for walking/running/sprinting - especially during frantic situations - is a bit futile. Kind of like running around putting your sniper rifle on Zoom while everyone is in close quarters with their pistols.

    Seems BS to me.

    I don't like the sound of that at all.

    Do you know what's crazy about all this, is that the knuckles were suppose to be these amazing revolutionary VR controllers and everyone was raving and hyping them up for ages and now they're finally here and they just seem like a major disappointment.

    The Valve Index HMD sounds amazing to me, I really want it, but the controllers just don't sound good compared to Touch. And now we're all used to Touch it's hard to imagine forcing myself to try learn anything else.

    I think Valve should have done the same as Microsoft and Sony where they both make Joypads that function the same way but each manufacture has their own unique style. But style without taking away from the core functions, so analogue sticks, buttons and triggers all work and feel the same way. I love both Joypads, I have PS4 joypad and Xbox One Wireless Joypad and both are fantastic, they look differant but they both work where it counts, that's the most important thing after all.

    Also even the holding with each finger seems wacky to me based on YouTube videos I've seen where people are complaining about dropping things when they want to hold them and holding things when they want to drop them because the sensitivity of squeezing the controller to hold or drop something is not very easy or simple to use.

    It's almost like they tried to one-up Oculus by designed the ultimate VR controller to beat Oculus's Touch controllers but knuckle controllers have fallen short by trying to be too different to a VR controller which has already proven over the past 3 years to be the industry standard.

    So what's that old saying? Don't try reinvent the wheel?

    The only way Touch loses is by Oculus making Touch 2.0 which they did with Rift S which aren't as good as Touch 1.0 IMO.
    UK: England - Leeds - - RTX 2080 - Make love, not war - See you in the Oasis!
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,082 Valuable Player
    Zenbane said:
    RuneSR2 said:
    Tyriel already made that video for you:


    I am asking for you to do it, so that we can see if in fact your Knuckles perform them correctly. Both thumbsticks in all directions. I can understand if you don't want to make the video, since it could potentially showcase the flaw.
    ;)
    No need to repeat I think you made my point well enough.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,421 Valuable Player
    edited August 13
    Zenbane said:
    RuneSR2 said:
    Tyriel already made that video for you:


    I am asking for you to do it, so that we can see if in fact your Knuckles perform them correctly. Both thumbsticks in all directions. I can understand if you don't want to make the video, since it could potentially showcase the flaw.
    No need to repeat I think you made my point well enough.

    No need to speak for Rune, I am sure he is capable of speaking for himself. But to address your personal concern, I asked Rune to share a video of his Knuckles and he responded with a video of someone else using their Knuckles. I feel that clarifying the request was appropriate. That seems to bother you on a personal level, which isn't my concern.

    @RuneSR2 - can you address why you won't post a video of your Knuckles? Or are you going to continue letting Luciferous speak for you?
    ;)
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,421 Valuable Player
    edited August 13
    Do you know what's crazy about all this, is that the knuckles were suppose to be these amazing revolutionary VR controllers and everyone was raving and hyping them up for ages and now they're finally here and they just seem like a major disappointment.

    The Valve Index HMD sounds amazing to me, I really want it, but the controllers just don't sound good compared to Touch. And now we're all used to Touch it's hard to imagine forcing myself to try learn anything else.

    Agreed. And it would be different if Knuckles are forcing people to "re-learn" for something that is better or superior. But in this case, it is all about design flaws. The problems around:
    • Glitches in finger-tracking
    • Bad thumbstick clicks
    • Properly Grabbing/Gripping objects
    None of these are appropriate. Plus, I think the problem around gripping and dropping objects is going to become even more problematic over time. We just don't hear too much about it because all of the current complaints of Knuckles are completely over-shadowed by the Thumbclick problem. But if Valve ever manages to fix it, then we're going to see new problems and complaints surface.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,590 Valuable Player
    edited August 14
    While I think finger tracking is a really good idea, I just think companies need to focus on the headset itself and keeping prices down if we want more people in VR. Finger tracking and body tracking can come much later for all I care. I just want a decent VR headset that has a decent resolution for my Geforce 2080ti now, but I know not everyone owns a highend card like mine.
    I think the next thing they really need to concentrate on is eye tracking. I think I'll just stick with my CV1 for now until something comes along and blows me away. There also needs to be a few more decent games available before I throw more money at another VR headset.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,118 Valuable Player
    edited August 14
    Wildt said:
    Imo it's it's a pityful knee jerk attempt at minimizing the size of the refund/RMA wave.

    The Workaround

    Valve has updated the default Index controller input bindings such that when a thumbstick is fully deflected in any direction, it is considered to be fully clicked. This is only applied for apps which have not set their own input bindings, which means mostly games which have not yet been updated to support Index.

    Users can manually enable this new setting for any app using the SteamVR input system’s Controller Settings panel. The exact deflection to activate the emulated clicking is fully configurable.

    So it seems I forgot that it's user configurable how much you have to move the stick to trigger the fake click.


    I really don't think that's going to work - Valve needs to fix this properly, and I think they'll have to. I'd never accept controllers where I couldn't perform certain movements. Even though the only game I currently play where I need to press down the thumbstick is Arizona Sunshine - that game is close to the most popular VR game and of course everything must work. The only advantage I see with software workarounds is that maybe it can buy some time, so that users like Sebastian will be sure to get new controllers that are fixed.

    I'm not going to spend time making videos or taking pictures of me pressing buttons on the Knuckles - or filming myself sprint in Arizona Sunshine. Instead I'd suggest that Zenbane orders a kit and personally try the Knuckles - maybe the real world is completely different from what you make up in your own mind. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,421 Valuable Player
    edited August 14
    RuneSR2 said:
     Even though the only game I currently play where I need to press down the thumbstick is Arizona Sunshine - that game is close to the most popular VR game and of course everything must work.

    What makes you say that Arizona Sunshine is "close to the most popular VR game" ?? Sounds like another one of those fictitious scenarios you invent in order to "over sell" Valve Index.

    According to this article, Arizona Sunshine doesn't even make the list for 2019:
    https://www.pcmag.com/feature/362099/the-best-vr-games-for-2019/27

    I stopped playing Arizona Sunshine a long time ago. It was fun when VR was still new, but I would never recommend that anyone spend all that money on the Valve Index just to play Arizona Sunshine. LMAO

    That game doesn't even require 5 finger tracking. What a waste.

    I'm not going to spend time making videos or taking pictures of me pressing buttons on the Knuckles

    So you'll spend days and weeks arguing that your Knuckles work, but won't take a few minutes to prove it? What a bad excuse. I will assume then that your Knuckles are flawed and you are too invested in them emotionally to make a video to prove otherwise. So yeah, keep spending days arguing otherwise instead of taking a few moments to make a video to prove that your Knuckles actually work.

    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,082 Valuable Player
    Well I think that wraps it up for me another thread turned sour. Lock up on the way out.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,421 Valuable Player
    edited August 14
    Well I think that wraps it up for me another thread turned sour. Lock up on the way out.
    This thread isn't sour. Lots of great facts in here, despite the best efforts of you and Rune.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • falken76falken76 Posts: 2,858 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:

    From my personal experience I see zero difference in accuracy between old and new Touch.

    There's lost tracking if too close to the headset which I think is a different issue and in practice this only happens when I scratch my face when holding the controllers. I also don't put my hands behind my back much!

    Different areas of occlusion too of course. The outside in Touch are occluded when something is between them an the cameras, the inside-out Touches get occluded when one hand is between the other and the headset. Again, in practice, this only happens when a hand is too near to the headset.

    I had only 2 sensors with CV1 so occlusion was happening all the time, completely impractical for anything other than forward facing and I believe people who say inside-out is better than 3 sensors.

    But that's occlusion. Accuracy... no difference that I can make out.

    I use 3 sensors and it is much better then inside out tracking if you place the sensors correctly. The sensors need to be placed in 3 corners of you room about 1ft to 2ft above your head. Have one camera at the front pointing towards the floor and the other camera at the front pointing at your head. I have the camera behind me pointing at my head to and my tracking is just about flawless.
    I say just about flawless because when I go right into the corners of the room I lose tracking. This is only because I am right under the camera's though. However, I never have any reason to go right into the corners of my room when using my CV1 for any game.

    My 3 sensor tracking is pretty much flawless also, my sensors are at about waste level on the front two and the one in the back is about mid back level.  These camera's have a wide viewing area, I can still pick things up off the ground and everything.  They're also very forgiving when you move them.  I just have to put them back where they were approximately and they'll re-calibrate on their own when I go back in game.  Within reason of course, if they're nowhere near where they were originally placed it doesn't work.
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    I spent a lot of time evaluating my set of knuckles that I had(I sold the unit). I was fortunate to get a set that worked nearly flawlessly. I did discover toward the end that I didn't get a consistent click in one direction but it registered the press. 

    I also had no problems with the finger tracking after I used them for a week. I initially had a problem with my middle finger not going down all the way and my ring finger sometimes operating with my pinky and vice versa but it was resolved with hand position adjustment. Everything worked as expected once I got my hand seated differently. I was still fully comfortable after the adjustment. 

    For ergonomics OG touch are still my favorite and are the best for my hands. They are balanced and disappear when I hold them. I still don't love the new ones for my Quest. They're top heavy and don't really feel that great in my hand. I also constantly grab the wrong one by mistake but they're not bad controllers. Just not as good as the OG to me.

    The Index controllers have more of a prototype feel to me when it comes to ergonomics. I dislike the button and stick locations and I said as much before I ordered one. I still don't understand Valve's obsession with touch pads. They're just annoying to use to me outside of scrolling webpages. However, while using knuckles in game I forgot about those minor complaints. The precision tracking when whipping my arms as fast as humanly possible was really impressive to me and being able to actually use all of your fingers in game is pretty sweet. Add on the 144hz and the hands were so silky smooth in motion and very precise. I was really able to be immersed more than even with touch in games that fully utilized the controller. Throwing things with the squeeze action felt so natural and good to me.

    That all said, Valve's response to the thumb click issue is pretty unacceptable to me. I can't imagine that response went over well with ANYONE who has that issue other than the most fervent of fanboys. It was done to avoid mass RMA's plain and simple. It's obvious a large percentage have this problem and that's shady af imo.  It's basic functionality that even $20 knock off controllers have and these are $280...

    At the end of the day, I didn't sell mine because of the knuckles. I actually liked them a lot. I sold it because of the amount of money thrown at me lol. I also hated the damn glare.

    Valve's response to this issue doesn't instill much confidence in me to purchase another one so I'm kind of just in wait and see mode for now. My time is limited anyway as it's hard to be a good parent to infants from in VR.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,421 Valuable Player
    edited August 16
    pyroth309 said:
    Valve's response to the thumb click issue is pretty unacceptable to me. I can't imagine that response went over well with ANYONE who has that issue other than the most fervent of fanboys. It was done to avoid mass RMA's plain and simple. It's obvious a large percentage have this problem and that's shady af imo.  It's basic functionality that even $20 knock off controllers have and these are $280...

    Well said, pyroth. And I couldn't agree more. I think Valve worked against themselves in a rather big way; and missed a huge opportunity. Similar to what HTC has done in the past by pricing themselves out of the competition. In this case, the Rift-S has so many problems that all Valve had to do was take better ownership and accountability of the problem, and their sales might have gained more traction than both Rift-S and Quest.

    To compare... when Oculus released a bad firmware update (e.g. remember when everyone was locked out of Oculus Home for 24 hours and had to manually download the "repair" file to fix it?), they issued everyone Store Credit to get free Software. Oculus has, on more than one occasion, responded by giving consumers "free money" in some way, shape, or form with each of their major blunders. At no point has Oculus ever come up with some excuse like, "this is working as intended," to save themselves the added cost of correction.

    And that is where Valve has really dropped the ball. Here is what they should have done:
    • Released a statement saying that this is a manufacturing defect, and will be fixed asap.
    • Request that people wait to RMA until Valve has confirmed that the problem is resolved at the manufacturing level.
    • Issued everyone store credit for Steam as an apology.
    • Release the Software workaround (e.g. Thumbstick movement speed) as a "temporary fix."
    And that's it! Something this simple and perfectly doable by a company as large and successful as Valve would have instilled consumer confidence by more than just "the most fervent of fanboys" (as you stated), and really put them up front as both a serious and worthwhile competitor in VR.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    edited August 16
    Zenbane said:
    pyroth309 said:
    Valve's response to the thumb click issue is pretty unacceptable to me. I can't imagine that response went over well with ANYONE who has that issue other than the most fervent of fanboys. It was done to avoid mass RMA's plain and simple. It's obvious a large percentage have this problem and that's shady af imo.  It's basic functionality that even $20 knock off controllers have and these are $280...


    And that is where HTC has really dropped the ball. 




     as Valve would have instilled consumer confidence by more than just "the most fervent of fanboys" (as you stated)
    Yea and just to be clear, I'm not talking about anyone on this board except possibly someone who has been recently banned a couple of times. There were some seriously pious Valve fans on Reddit that were in full damage control when Valve's response came out. 

    And yea I think more should have been done by Valve on this issue. It's a PR black eye that they shouldn't have taken.

    For me personally, It was a significant factor in me not rebuying one because if another problem shows up outside of the RMA window...are they going to try to wiggle out and bury that problem too? 

    Odds are I will rebuy one at some point in the near future, but I'm hoping for a stealth revision that fixes the issues as I don't want to deal with RMA process. 
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,421 Valuable Player
    pyroth309 said:

     as Valve would have instilled consumer confidence by more than just "the most fervent of fanboys" (as you stated)
    Yea and just to be clear, I'm not talking about anyone on this board except possibly someone who has been recently banned a couple of times. There were some seriously pious Valve fans on Reddit that were in full damage control when Valve's response came out. 

    And yea I think more should have been done by Valve on this issue. It's a PR black eye that they shouldn't have taken.

    For me personally, It was a significant factor in me not rebuying one because if another problem shows up outside of the RMA window...are they going to try to wiggle out and bury that problem too? 

    Odds are I will rebuy one at some point in the near future, but I'm hoping for a stealth revision that fixes the issues as I don't want to deal with RMA process. 

    I meant Valve, not HTC lol.

    I'm still in the market for a new PCVR headset. My Rift CV1 is still going strong, and it's been so amazing over the last 3+ years that I don't want to replace it with a sub-par experience. Whatever replaces my Rift CV1 needs to feel like a true all-around upgrade. I don't want to go in to a situation relying on a warranty, or RMA, and I certainly don't want to have to start compromising. And that applies to all VR Manufacturers, including Oculus with their Rift-S compromises (e.g. lack of integrated audio).

    So much like you, I'm in a "wait and see" mode as well. Every time I get close to ordering a Rift-S, Oculus releases a new update that fubar's its stability. For now, I will just be happy with my GO, Quest, and Rift CV1.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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