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i came to a discovery on why video looks worse on the index or reverb than the cv1

hoppingbunny123hoppingbunny123 Posts: 687
Trinity
edited November 30 in General
i havent seen the index or reverb, but i have read this post by runesr2;


"
Watched a few movies using BigScreen Revive with Index res 200%, (= solid 90 fps) and it's close to being in a theater. But one movie was mkv another mp4, although 1080p it's just not good enough. You need 4K.
But that's just me, I'm sure many persons with little knowledge about VR would be totally blown away. With 4K and virtual surround sound I think Index might be really close to IMAX at home
"

i decided to tell him in that thread that he probably wasn't using the settings i use for the cv1 to watch video, and i forgot my settings for watching videos, so i dusted off my cv1 and set it up and installed the software etc and got this fine picture of my virtual desktop settings for watching videos;




i watched a few videos and saw a artifact i hadn't noticed before, as a benefit of the cv1 screen-door effect. by there being a screen-door effect, the eye making the image more clear in the one spot looked at while blurry the other areas, you don't see the screen-door effect uniformly.

this adds a depth factor to the image, seeing the screen-door effect lines acts to add in detail that isn't there in the actual video frame. and that SDE isn't in the index or reverb, at least not to the level it is in the cv1.

therefore i deduced watching the same video in the index or reverb without the cv1 SDE quality would lack some depth in the image that the cv1 has. if you  had the eye tracking blur some of the video you might have the same effect but you might not, hard to say.

of note is the fact i often use negativescreen to produce visual effects in my video,s sometimes, so i know a beneficial video artifact looks like when i see one. the SDE adds in a lot of tiny effects that are attractive, using my virtual desktop settings above and in full screen video watching 1080p video, in the cv1.

but the cv1 is still a bit tight near my right cheek bone under my eye so i cant wear the cv1 for too long. i would like the cv2 to have a nice padding on the bones under the eye please...

Comments

  • hoppingbunny123hoppingbunny123 Posts: 687
    Trinity
    edited December 2

    dopamine is released by feedback, and negativity releases more feedback = more dopamine.

    therefore,
    if oculus and company really want to push the dopamine button theyre pressing (what with the current vr headsets they sell being sub par either on comfort or ipd control), they would release an affordable high resolution display vr headset which would effectively remove the rifts SDE, which would then make 1080p videos on the new vr headset look sub par to how they can look on the rift cv1.



  • MikeFMikeF Posts: 775
    Neo
    So video on a low res display looks better than a high res display because screen door adds detail?
  • zork2001zork2001 Posts: 552
    Trinity
    index screens can really pop with color. I had a downloaded copy of blueray 3D Tangled that i played in Big Screen and WOW something like that the index really shines, we are getting pretty close to the Imax experience. CV1 and Vive have always looked like shit with movies.
  • hoppingbunny123hoppingbunny123 Posts: 687
    Trinity
    edited December 2
    MikeF said:
    So video on a low res display looks better than a high res display because screen door adds detail?
    i guess so. that zork guy never watched the videos on the cv1 with the settings i showed, i guess. just bigscreen.

    the more you transfer data the more data is lost, garbage in garbage out. hence why 480i/p content looks better on a crt tube tv than a 1080p monitor.



  • CalibosCalibos Posts: 103
    Art3mis
    I've never scratched my head so much while reading a thread.

    Watching 1080p movies on my 1280x1440 pixel per eye RGB Stripe LCD Oculus GO/Rift S looks much much better than on my old 1080x1200 pixels per eye Pentile OLED Rift CV1 despite the Blacks  not being as deep on the LCD compared to the OLED. 

    Why would lower res and more SDE make the CV1 look better than Rift S/GO/Index/Reverb......oh thats right....it doesnt !!!
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,926 Valuable Player
    zork2001 said:
    index screens can really pop with color. I had a downloaded copy of blueray 3D Tangled that i played in Big Screen and WOW something like that the index really shines, we are getting pretty close to the Imax experience. CV1 and Vive have always looked like shit with movies.
    Agreed, my initial post was about Index needing true 4K for optimal movie quality, it was not about CV1. Although I'm a big fan of oled and CV1, Index is *much* superior watching movies compared to CV1, including fov, res and SDE.

    But with no proper 4K upscaling (seems to require 6700K or better cpu for software 2D players), my Sony 85" looks so much better than Index that - for now - I don't watch movies in any of my hmds. But I'd love to do that when quality improves. 

    I still think it's a shame that Oculus spend so much on developing games, while an app allowing Rift users to see Netflix and play back blu-ray 3D and 4K content using streaming or external drives with physical discs may have worked so many wonders and increased adoption... 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 6,581 Volunteer Moderator
    edited December 3
    Seeing as no one has mentioned the Reverb and me having one, the resolution is superb and so damn clear it makes the CV1 look very dated. I played Gravity 3D inside the Reverb and it was as close to 4k as I've seen in VR.
    A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.

  • WildtWildt Posts: 2,109 Valuable Player
    Calibos said:
    I've never scratched my head so much while reading a thread.
    Try reading his "A.I." thread.
    PCVR: CV1 || 4 sensors || TPcast wireless adapter || MamutVR Gun stock V3
    PSVR: PS4 Pro || Move Controllers || Aim controller
    WMR: HP Reverb
  • CalibosCalibos Posts: 103
    Art3mis
    edited December 3
    Wildt said:
    Calibos said:
    I've never scratched my head so much while reading a thread.
    Try reading his "A.I." thread.
    I'll have a look for it later.

    I wonder is the point he is driving at that SDE makes the image look sharper? Back in the day I used to own Panasonic AE series LCD projectors. They had a lens/prism technology they called 'Smoothscreen' that blurred the black interpixel gaps to greatly reduce SDE. A similar tech I imagine to what Samsung used in their Odyssey+ WMR HMD's. People used to complain that this tech made the Panasonic AE series LCD projectors image too soft and many people preferred the perceived faux sharpness enhancement caused by the SDE. Myself and AE series Projector fans on the other hand absolutely loved the Smoothscreen Tech because to our eyes by removing the SDE it gave the image a more celluloid film like quality rather than the artificial digitally sharpness of LCD projectors and surely that was the goal of Home Cinema, to replicate the kind of image we saw in the real Cinemas at the time.

    I still don't understand his point that 1080p content would look better on a lower res Pentile display with much more SDE than on a HMD that is actually approaching the point where it has enough pixels to render a Virtual screen with 1920x1080=2 million of its 2160x2160=4.5 million pixels per eye like a HP Reverb.

    I'll get to do this very comparison in a couple of days. The Rift S I bought my brother in the BF sales means I'll get my loaner CV1 back off him soon and the HP Reverb I bought for Sims and Virtual Cinema in the HP BF sale should arrive before the weekend. I've been using an Oculus GO for my Virtual Cinema usage the last couple of months so will be able to compare all 4 HMD's for a short time. ie. CV1, GO, Rift S & HP Reverb, though obviously I don't expect much difference between GO and Rift S as apparently they use the same Panel and Lenses. I'm confident that Guy Godins Virtual Desktop Remote Desktop streaming to GO is not compromising the image quality at all but if it is then Streaming to GO while Rift S is wired and both having the same display and lenses should highlight whatever effect the wireless streaming compression is having on the image.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,926 Valuable Player
    Calibos said:

    I wonder is the point he is driving at that SDE makes the image look sharper? 

    Maybe - if you constantly micro-shake your head to get rid of the SDE  B)

    That's in theory, in the real world I don't see CV1 ss 2.0 having a chance against Index res 200%. And Reverb is king, unless you care more for the fov. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,774 Valuable Player
    edited December 3
    @Calibos - You need to watch 4k video content on the HP Reverb when you get it. You will see the biggest difference playing 4k video imo.
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 3,844 Valuable Player
    I feel like I am repeating myself here but you are restricted by the source resolution. This is why Adult VR producers as an example are producing content above 4K to get better quality.


    System Specs: RTX 2080 ti , i9 9900K CPU, 16 GB DDR 4 RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,774 Valuable Player
    edited December 3
    I feel like I am repeating myself here but you are restricted by the source resolution. This is why Adult VR producers as an example are producing content above 4K to get better quality.

    What do you mean? All I'm saying is 4k video looks a lot better then 1080p on my HP Reverb. Well it does to me should I say.
  • CalibosCalibos Posts: 103
    Art3mis
    I feel like I am repeating myself here but you are restricted by the source resolution. This is why Adult VR producers as an example are producing content above 4K to get better quality.

    How can you be restricted by the source resolution when only now with the 2160x2160 per eye Reverb is there a HMD that has enough resolution and Pixels per degree to just about replicate 1080p on a Virtual screen that fills the horizontal FOV of the HMD and about 2/3rds of the Vertical FOV.

    Using 4K source material which is downsampled to the effective 1920x1080 virtual screen possibly improving the image quality like Supersampling does for our VR games which are then downsampled and warped by the SDK to the HMD native resolution. Thats another question entirely. It may well be valid. But thats not what it sounds like you are talking about. The way you are phrasing it talking about the source restricting things makes it sound like you think the Virtual Screen could be made up of 4K's worth of pixels and thus we should be feeding it 4K source material. The overall resolution of the Reverb panels might be 4.5K's worth of pixels but the VIrtual Screen with its width filling the Horizontal FOV will fill not much more than half the Vertical FOV. Half of 2160 is 1080. ie. an effective 1080p Virtual Screen. Putting the possible Super/Down-Sampling interpretation/benefits of 4K down to 1080p aside, it seems like a waste of time to feed in a 4K source thats going to display on the virtual screen with a max of 1920x1080 pixels anyway. Obviously if you have the media in 4K format anyway then it can't hurt but I remain to be convinced that theres any necessity for me to go and re-source all my media in 4K and buy a load of new Hard Drives to accommodate them.

    VR Porn is recorded in 4K-6K now because that captured res is split Horizontally in 2 for the SBS 3D and then spread across 180º Horizontal and Vertical Capture FOV. You can never see more than 100º Horizontal or Vertical at any one time because thats the FOV of most of the HMD's used to view the content. You arent seeing 4K image quality porn when the file is 4K. If the vertical capture res is 2160 pixels spread across a captured 180º vertical FOV and the HMD lets you see 100º vertical then you are seeing an effective 1080-1200p quality.

    Anyone remember the early videos that were recorded in 4K 3D 360. 4K split in 2 for SBS 3D and then half the res that was left wasted on 180º behind the viewer/camera. Who the hell watches a VR Porn Video and admires the couch or the curtains in the room behind them!! 4K spread that thinly was pure pixelated mush!! They quickly realised that 3D 180º capture was they way forwards for VR Porn where 40-50º either side and above and below of 'The Action' was enough for immersion without wasting a ton of capture res where you would never be looking anyway.

    3D 180º VR porn captured at 4-6k nowadays in order to deliver an effective 1080-1200p to our eyes. Back in the early VR porn days with 3D 360º 4K content was delivering an effective 240-360p to our eyes. 

  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,269
    Wintermute
    Ya know what, I haven't even tried watching bluerays or 3D movies in virtual desktop. I've not even used virtual desktop in over a year. So you guys have convinced me I need to try all of this so I'm going to give it a shot tonight.

    If I stick a blueray in my PC blueray player will virtual desktop play it? 

    Or do you have to convert your bluerays to MKV Format first and then play your movie files from your desktop?

    Thanks for any help given.
    UK: England - Leeds - - RTX 2080 - Rift CV1 & Rift S - Make love, not war - See you in the Oasis!
  • CalibosCalibos Posts: 103
    Art3mis
    edited December 3
    Ya know what, I haven't even tried watching bluerays or 3D movies in virtual desktop. I've not even used virtual desktop in over a year. So you guys have convinced me I need to try all of this so I'm going to give it a shot tonight.

    If I stick a blueray in my PC blueray player will virtual desktop play it? 

    Or do you have to convert your bluerays to MKV Format first and then play your movie files from your desktop?

    Thanks for any help given.
    If you have software that can play the Blurays on your PC already then I don't see a problem. Virtual Desktop will just display your PC's desktop and any active or fullscreened apps on the Virtual Screen as if it was your real monitor. So anything you can do or play on your real monitor you can do and play on the Virtual Screen.

    I am using the HighMax Virtual Cinema DLC. Accurate recreation of the largest iMAX in the world at Darling Harbour Sydney Australia. I rip all my content, store it on a Media server and play it back on my PC with KODI. Fullscreened KODI on the Virtual Cinema Screen works as it would on a real monitor.

    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1510506960&searchtext=highmax

    If you are using an Ultrawide 21:9 ratio real life monitor then I recommend you switch it to a 16:9 resolution of 1920x1080 or 2560x1440 etc otherwise you end up with a situation where watching 16:9 content has black bars left and right and top and bottom of the Virtual screen wasting resolution. This is because Virtual Desktop and all similar VR apps will take the 16:9 content displaying with black bars left and right of your 21:9 monitor res and fit that within the 16:9 ratio Virtual Screens and as you know 21:9 displayed within a taller 16;9 ratio screen will have black bars top and bottom. Whereas if you switch your real Monitor res to 16:9 before starting Virtual Desktop then 16:9 content and 21;9 cinemascope  content will display properly on the 16;9 Virtual screen (ie. 16:9 content will fill the Virtual screen completely and Cinemascope content will fill the full screen width and have black bars top and bottom as it should.)
  • CalibosCalibos Posts: 103
    Art3mis
    edited December 7
    Got my Reverb set up tonight.

    Holy FCUK !! Virtual Cinema Heaven. Just wish they'd fix the mild Chromatic aberration.

    Watched Endgame 3D again. I don't know if tears were streaming down my face for the Ironman Death Scene again or if it was tears of Joy having just seen Endgame in the largest iMAX in the world in 3D with a stunning image quality/res.

    Given the subject of this thread and the posts therein, I'll reserve judgement if this is the best its capable of. Its already amazing but Shadowmask/Rune might well be correct about a 4K source being downsampled adds clarity if thats what they were getting at. I couldn't find anything I had in both 3D and 2D 1080p to compare. The SBS split of horizontal source res 1920/2=960 could be compromising things just from watching in 3D...and like I said, it still looked amazing. So tonight to rule out the 3D complication I am going to watch The Mandalorian S01E04 in 1080p 2D and 4K 2D to compare. 

    I'm telling ye lads, in 2023 when we hopefully have our 4000x4000 pixel per eye, eyetracking with Foveated Rendering, auto IPD physical calibration, variable focus, 150º+ FOV, Inside/Out tracked, Wireless, Hand Tracking, Face Tracking, Full Body tracking Rift/Quest 2.0 AIO (All-In-One) for €399-€499 that runs on a potato GPU thanks to ET&FR....THATS.....when VR takes off Big-Time. There will no longer be any excuse not to own a VR HMD. Even if none of the naysayers ever played an actual VR game, every PC and Console gamer on the planet would want one even if just for Virtual Cinema, VR Porn and playing their Monitor games on their own private 4K 120hz 10ft Virtual screen that cost them €399 instead of €3,999.

    I got my first small taste of part of the future of VR tonight and it was Glorious.
  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 6,581 Volunteer Moderator
    Welcome to the Reverb revolution ;)
    A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.

  • dburnedburne Posts: 2,850 Valuable Player
    Wow the Reverb does all that? Perhaps I should re-think getting one...

    Don

    EVGA Z390 Dark MB | I9 9900k| EVGA 2080Ti FTW3 Ultra |32 GB G Skill 3200 cl14 ram | Warthog Throttle | VKB Gunfighter Pro/MCG Pro grip | Crosswind Pedals | EVGA DG 87 Case| Rift S | Quest |
  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 6,581 Volunteer Moderator
    edited December 7
    It may do in 2023     B)
    A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.

  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,774 Valuable Player
    edited December 7
    dburne said:
    Wow the Reverb does all that? Perhaps I should re-think getting one...


    Just don't say nobody didn't warn you about the cable and some other minor problems. The fact is that every VR headset has it's slight faults atm. But the HP Reverb is by far the best VR experience when it comes to visuals, if you have the computer for it. People will be kicking themselves they didn't pick it up when it was on sale for £435 because it's just gone back up to £598. I nearly purchased another one for that price.
  • hoppingbunny123hoppingbunny123 Posts: 687
    Trinity
    edited December 8
    i read somewhere someone said it doesnt matter the vr resolution be it 4k or 8k, 1080p video will look the same, in the index thread i think;


    so i remembered i made some test files to test the resolution. i will upload them and let you try them out and see if you see a difference between the cv1 and reverb and index. see the attached files

    By Veikko Mäkelä - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0,







    below i match up the chart above to the calculator values to figure out the viewing angle;

    for 4k video:
    1. Distance to main viewing location 8
    2. Choose Screen Shape: 4:3 (Standard TV Shape) 16:9 (Widescreen TV Shape)// i chose 16:9
    3. Choose Screen Size: (Enter either a diagonal screen size or width):
    Choose Diagonal Size = 65 inches
    32.9 deg.     Current Viewing angle

    for 1080p video;
    1. Distance to main viewing location 8 feet
    2. Choose Screen Shape: 4:3 (Standard TV Shape) 16:9 (Widescreen TV Shape)// i chose 16:9
    3. Choose Screen Size: (Enter either a diagonal screen size or width):
    Choose Diagonal Size = 45 inches
    23.1 deg.     Current Viewing angle

    for 720p video:
    1. Distance to main viewing location 8 feet
    2. Choose Screen Shape: 4:3 (Standard TV Shape) 16:9 (Widescreen TV Shape)// i chose 16:9
    3. Choose Screen Size: (Enter either a diagonal screen size or width):
    Choose Diagonal Size = 25 inches
    12.9 deg.     Current Viewing angle

    for 480p video:
    1. Distance to main viewing location 7 1/2 feet
    2. Choose Screen Shape: 4:3 (Standard TV Shape) 16:9 (Widescreen TV Shape)// i chose 16:9
    3. Choose Screen Size: (Enter either a diagonal screen size or width):
    Choose Diagonal Size = 20 inches
    11.1 deg.     Current Viewing angle

    for 4k video, closer to the screen:
    1. Distance to main viewing location 4.92126 = 1.5 meters
    2. Choose Screen Shape: 4:3 (Standard TV Shape) 16:9 (Widescreen TV Shape)// i chose 16:9
    3. Choose Screen Size: (Enter either a diagonal screen size or width):
    Choose Diagonal Size = 40 inches
    32.9 deg.     Current Viewing angle

    for 1080p video, closer to the screen;
    1. Distance to main viewing location 4.92126 feet or 1.5 meters
    2. Choose Screen Shape: 4:3 (Standard TV Shape) 16:9 (Widescreen TV Shape)// i chose 16:9
    3. Choose Screen Size: (Enter either a diagonal screen size or width):
    Choose Diagonal Size = 28 inches
    23.3 deg.     Current Viewing angle

    for 720p video, closer to the screen:
    1. Distance to main viewing location 4.92126 feet
    2. Choose Screen Shape: 4:3 (Standard TV Shape) 16:9 (Widescreen TV Shape)// i chose 16:9
    3. Choose Screen Size: (Enter either a diagonal screen size or width):
    Choose Diagonal Size = 15 inches
    12.9 deg.     Current Viewing angle

    for 480p video, closer to the screen:
    1. Distance to main viewing location 4.92126 feet
    2. Choose Screen Shape: 4:3 (Standard TV Shape) 16:9 (Widescreen TV Shape)// i chose 16:9
    3. Choose Screen Size: (Enter either a diagonal screen size or width):
    Choose Diagonal Size = 13 inches
    11 deg.     Current Viewing angle


    i watch virtual desktop view on mpc hc or vlc at 1.5m distance, at a 110 viewing angle, which equals this value;
    my virtual desktop settings:
    1. Distance to main viewing location 1.5 meters
    2. Choose Screen Shape: 4:3 (Standard TV Shape) 16:9 (Widescreen TV Shape)// i chose 16:9
    3. Choose Screen Size: (Enter either a diagonal screen size or width):
    Choose Diagonal Size = 194 inches
    110.1 deg.     Current Viewing angle


    the cv1 is 1080 x 1200 // 1200 is close to 1080p vertical pairity
    the index is 1440 x 1600
    the reverb is 2160 x 2160 // 2160 is close to 1920 horizontal pairity

    using the values above, for 4k the viewing angle is 32.9 degrees, to see the video clearly. to see the video clearly at 100 degrees you need 12k video which is this viewing angle; 98.7

    and thats per eye, for stereoscopic vr you need 24k video to see absolute 4k quality at 100 degrees viewing angle. what videocard can push 24k video at 90 fps anytime soon?

    12k video is 6 times the resolution of the reverb, thereabouts for 100 degree viewing angle at 1.5 meters distance.








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