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It is a sad day, one of my 2 VR Killer apps died today

falken76falken76 Posts: 2,935 Valuable Player
OMG I have two favorite VR games, Onward and DCS World.  Onwards recent update to include Quest transformed an awesome game into the dumbed down Roblox version of the game complete with terrible animation and heavily gimped sound effects.  It's in early access so it could go either way, but the game now is no longer as fun to me as it once was, it just looks terrible and with the change in sound and animations, I've almost lost interest completely.  This is 100% a downgrade.  I suspected they'd abandon PC to only support Quest due to the size of the demographic and they said they wouldn't be doing that.  I had no idea they would just ruin their game and end up having to support quest by default.  For shame......
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Comments

  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,901 Valuable Player
    That's messed up that they downgraded the PC version to include Quest. How did they think that would go over well to the people that have got the game where it is?

    At least developer said this -

    Hey guys, as you might have realized v1.8 has gotten a lot of backlash from people in the community. We in the devteam will do our very best to get the visuals back to where it was, if not better.

    We're going to be collecting all the feedback from you guys and build upon that.
    Lets make this two steps forward and one step back 07




  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,934 Volunteer Moderator
    edited July 30
    I assume this is a cross-play thing? Are they saying the world has to be the same as displayed in both headsets for cross-play to work? Aren't there other cross-play titles that have managed this without Rift downgrading?

    I guess Star Trek Bridge Crew, for example, has a less complex world but still, there must be ways of doing this.


    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v2004 (19041.388)
  • kojackkojack Posts: 6,543 Volunteer Moderator
    Oh god, that looks worse than I thought.


  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,716 Valuable Player
    Yep, falken wasn't lying when he said the new version looks like Roblox. I build Roblox maps for my son, and after looking that comparison video... lmao.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,844 Valuable Player
    edited July 30
    kojack said:
    Oh god, that looks worse than I thought.


    From PCVR to PhoneVR/GearVR  :D

    Looks like many other Quest ports on the Rift, which I have been worried about for long - nice that more persons now can experience what it means if devs start to develop for the lowest common denomitator. 

    Right now devs are spending thousands of hours developing low-poly non-textured games for a mobile gpu - time that is lost from creating awesome PCVR content, and that worries me too. 

    I have a few Quest games ported to PCVR, but they are all so horribly low-end when it comes to graphics that it does not feel like the road to the bottom. It is the bottom. 2c.
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • Pixie40Pixie40 Posts: 173
    Art3mis
    Okay, that still looks good but... Where did the trees go? And why did the house in the distance lose an entire story?!
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,844 Valuable Player
    Index owners are not exactly happy either  :D

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/i13we6/onwards_downgrade_is_just_painful/

    I don't play Onward, if I did I'd probably be like Johnny ;)

    Flame On Johnny Storm The Human Torch Appreciation 2019


    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,355 Valuable Player
    edited July 31
    pyroth309 said:
    That's messed up that they downgraded the PC version to include Quest. How did they think that would go over well to the people that have got the game where it is?

    At least developer said this -

    Hey guys, as you might have realized v1.8 has gotten a lot of backlash from people in the community. We in the devteam will do our very best to get the visuals back to where it was, if not better.

    We're going to be collecting all the feedback from you guys and build upon that.
    Lets make this two steps forward and one step back 07





    How are you going to do that without making two separate games? They would have to make the Oculus Quest be capable of Onward PC -VR graphics, and they obviously dumbed down the graphics because Oculus Quest wasn't able to produce those graphics.

    What's more annoying is that I have been refused a refund when they have basically changed a PC -VR game into a Mobile VR game.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,844 Valuable Player
    Also, while Oculus users have the luxury of not having to update an app, all Steam users are forced to update. 

    Follow the Steam battle/complaints here, a large bag of popcorn might be recommended ;)

    https://steamcommunity.com/app/496240/discussions/
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,355 Valuable Player
    edited July 31
    I assume this is a cross-play thing? Are they saying the world has to be the same as displayed in both headsets for cross-play to work? Aren't there other cross-play titles that have managed this without Rift downgrading?

    I guess Star Trek Bridge Crew, for example, has a less complex world but still, there must be ways of doing this.



    Yes, in many online PC games you can turn off grass and other things if you choose to do that. I just find this a ridiculous excuse by these devs. Everyone knows they dumb down a game to make it mobile VR compatible.

    Two steps forward one step back lol. Just roll back to fix it and then there's no need to take two steps forward :D
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,934 Volunteer Moderator
    edited July 31
    RedRizla said:
    I assume this is a cross-play thing? Are they saying the world has to be the same as displayed in both headsets for cross-play to work? Aren't there other cross-play titles that have managed this without Rift downgrading?

    I guess Star Trek Bridge Crew, for example, has a less complex world but still, there must be ways of doing this.



    Yes, in many online PC games you can turn off grass and other things if you choose to do that. I just find this a ridiculous excuse by these devs. Everyone knows they dumb down a game to make it mobile VR compatible.

    Two steps forward one step back lol. Just roll back to fix it and then there's no need to take two steps forward :D
    Well there's no avoiding having to have less complex graphics for mobile VR but to be clear, I assume the problem is cross-play rather than just compatibility.

    If all the elements in the game influence the play, i.e. things you can hide behind or interact with in some way then it'll have to be the same on both platforms otherwise Rift owners would be hiding behind trees that are invisible to their Quest opponents.

    In that respect it's a question of whether making the game cross-play was the right choice, or how well they can optimise more complex graphics on the Quest.

    I think in this instance, abandoning cross-play may be the end decision. If it sells well, there should be enough Quest players for them not to need cross-play, maybe.
    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v2004 (19041.388)
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,355 Valuable Player
    edited July 31
    RedRizla said:
    I assume this is a cross-play thing? Are they saying the world has to be the same as displayed in both headsets for cross-play to work? Aren't there other cross-play titles that have managed this without Rift downgrading?

    I guess Star Trek Bridge Crew, for example, has a less complex world but still, there must be ways of doing this.



    Yes, in many online PC games you can turn off grass and other things if you choose to do that. I just find this a ridiculous excuse by these devs. Everyone knows they dumb down a game to make it mobile VR compatible.

    Two steps forward one step back lol. Just roll back to fix it and then there's no need to take two steps forward :D
    Well there's no avoiding having to have less complex graphics for mobile VR but to be clear, I assume the problem is cross-play rather than just compatibility.

    If all the elements in the game influence the play, i.e. things you can hide behind or interact with in some way then it'll have to be the same on both platforms otherwise Rift owners would be hiding behind trees that are invisible to their Quest opponents.

    In that respect it's a question of whether making the game cross-play was the right choice, or how well they can optimise more complex graphics on the Quest.

    I think in this instance, abandoning cross-play may be the end decision. If it sells well, there should be enough Quest players for them not to need cross-play, maybe.

    Did you actually see what they did to the game? I've already said in another thread that unless you were an Ant, then you couldn't possibly hide in the grass on the PC version before. I suggest you see the grass on the PC version before they decided to remove most of it. They also decided to get a decorator in to stripe the wallpaper and make it blank, which you also couldn't hide behind. The bushes look like something out of Minecraft and the list just goes on and on.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,934 Volunteer Moderator
    OK I stand corrected :)

    So the problem may be that the devs haven't gone through the process of separating what has an impact on cross-play fairness and what doesn't. If that's the case then it's fixable and should have been done before Quest release... they must be working on it though and depending on how all the world objects have were classed could be a long process or not.
    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v2004 (19041.388)
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,934 Volunteer Moderator
    Probably someone was against the wall with the Quest release date... someone else threatening consequences if it wasn't met. Bad decision made to release before being properly sorted... bad publicity ensues, work continues.
    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v2004 (19041.388)
  • MegalithikMegalithik Posts: 45
    Brain Burst
    Onward is dead to me now.  If PCVR people had to get the mobile graphics downgrade for Quest, then Quest users should have just been walled off to play with their own kind.  If i wanted mobile quality games, i'd have a baby-vr quest.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,716 Valuable Player
    Quest users should have just been walled off to play with their own kind

    "WE ARE NACHO KIND!"

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  • Pixie40Pixie40 Posts: 173
    Art3mis
    Downgrading things to make it compatible with the Quest, sure. But they might have gone too far. Or maybe they intentionally overcorrected, and plan to now work back up to see what exactly they can pull off with the Quest.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,716 Valuable Player
    edited July 31
    Post from the Onward Lead Dev,

    Hello everyone.

    We’ve been listening to the feedback on the PCVR 1.8 update we launched yesterday, and I understand the frustrations you’ve shared with us. The focus for the update was not only to facilitate the launch on Quest: we’ve also implemented an enormous amount of changes under the hood that will enable us to expand Onward going into the future.

    In the end, we didn’t allow ourselves enough time to bring back the full immersive experience for PCVR: the current graphics in particular are a noticeable step down from what you were used to in 1.7. I apologize for not having communicated that clearly with you, or giving you the option to make a choice between 1.7 and 1.8 while we worked on solving these issues.

    Going forward the first priority for 1.8 is to bring the graphics to a higher level, and sort out the other issues you’ve raised with us over the past day. We’ll be releasing a patch today with a couple of immediate changes to LODs, as well as a handful of bug fixes. In addition to today’s patch, we’ll open up a beta channel on Steam that will allow you to revert back to 1.7 if you want to continue playing that version. This will remain an option for the coming weeks, as we work to address the issues you’ve raised.


    My team has been working extremely hard over the past couple of months to make this release happen, and I’m proud of the work they did. One of the things they really need right now is some time off to catch their breath. That means that after today’s patch most of Downpour will have a week off before returning to work. Trust me they’ve earned it.


    When we’re back the focus will be to release frequent, incremental improvements, and I’ll talk to you guys more about that as soon as I can. Apart from graphical changes, we’ll also keep working on bringing back the maps that didn’t make it into 1.8 yet, as well as custom content.


    Thanks for being passionate about Onward. Your support over the past four years made the game possible and I’m not about to forget that. Thank you.


    - Dante (Lead dev)


    https://www.reddit.com/r/OnwardVR/comments/i1bf33/the_state_of_onward_on_pc_future/


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  • willdeanwilldean Posts: 11
    Brain Burst
    Damn, I am really sorry. It's a sad day for you indeed.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,355 Valuable Player
    edited July 31
    Pixie40 said:
    Downgrading things to make it compatible with the Quest, sure. But they might have gone too far. Or maybe they intentionally overcorrected, and plan to now work back up to see what exactly they can pull off with the Quest.

    Downgrading for Oculus Quest at the expense of having great PC graphics is not on. Remove cross play between PC -VR players and Mobile -VR players if you have to, but don't dumb down the graphics on PC -VR just for the sake of mobile -VR.

    I won't be buying into Mobile -VR if this continues. Lets hope this is a one off and doesn't happen with other games. 
  • Digikid1Digikid1 Posts: 2,338 Valuable Player
    kojack said:
    Oh god, that looks worse than I thought.



    That is HORRIBLE!!!!  Wow!!!
  • Pixie40Pixie40 Posts: 173
    Art3mis
    edited July 31
    RedRizla said:
    Pixie40 said:
    Downgrading things to make it compatible with the Quest, sure. But they might have gone too far. Or maybe they intentionally overcorrected, and plan to now work back up to see what exactly they can pull off with the Quest.

    Downgrading for Oculus Quest at the expense of having great PC graphics is not on. Remove cross play between PC -VR players and Mobile -VR players if you have to, but don't dumb down the graphics on PC -VR just for the sake of mobile -VR.

    I won't be buying into Mobile -VR if this continues. Lets hope this is a one off and doesn't happen with other games. 

    Me thinks you didn't quite understand what I was saying. I was suggesting that the devs over corrected intentionally with the intention to bring things back up to previous standards for PC and improve things on Quest. Things like trees might still end up axed since that could provide a quantifiable advantage to PC players by providing cover the Quest players are incapable of seeing. But overall image quality being brought back up, I can see that happening.

    EDIT: And the dev response would also indicate this is not the final state of things.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,934 Volunteer Moderator
    The best decision would have been to release the stripped down Quest version, do nothing to the Rift version, and delay cross-play. Just say cross-play will be introduced in the future when the optimisation and fair play compatability work was at a stage where it didn't impact much on the PC version.

    Maybe they thought having the increased numbers of players would be something Rift owners would like, more then they'd dislike the downgraded graphics, at least for a time while they worked on it. Devs make mistakes with decisions from time to time, as long as they learn then no problem.
    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v2004 (19041.388)
  • Pixie40Pixie40 Posts: 173
    Art3mis
    Isn't the game still in early access? Which means it's still in active development, in theory?
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,716 Valuable Player
    edited August 1
    I'm struggling to understand the connection to "crossplay." I've been reading about that on reddit as people address this Onward situation.

    The crossplay functionality takes place primary at the Network layer. So I don't see how the Onward dev's needed to completely overhall both the Application and Presentation Layers of the software just for crossplay.

    As a reference, No Man's Sky developers were able to make the PC and console versions of the game crossplay by overhauling the Network Layer. They didn't have to completely redo the entire game for: PC, PlayStation, and XBox.
    A tremendous amount of work has gone into this update and the underlying technology and systems. We’ve moved to an entirely new networking architecture, with more flexibility for the future, allowing players to play together regardless of platform.
    https://www.nomanssky.com/2020/06/introducing-crossplay-for-no-mans-sky/


    Sounds to me like the Onward dev took a whole lotta shortcuts when building the original version of the game; and now it's coming back to bite 'em in the arse. Happens to the best of us. That's why you always implement a proper architecture from the beginning, folks!

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  • Pixie40Pixie40 Posts: 173
    Art3mis
    edited August 1
    If Quest can't handle some of the environmental details I can see removing those. Especially if in cross play it can give someone an advantage. For example if the trees have collision and thus act as cover, the Quest user might not see the tree you're hiding behind but still can't hit you. On the other end of the spectrum, if the trees can't act as cover (other then visual cover) then the PC player would be at a disadvantage due to the Quest player being able to see them, but not being able to see the Quest player.

    In that case, removing the trees is a good idea. I suspect the texture details got over corrected, and now they will work to improving both Quest and PC versions to have better visuals. Game still doesn't really look bad, just not as crisp as it could. But that can be improved. Also, I'd say the grass texturing actually looks a bit better now. Not perfect, but a little better.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,716 Valuable Player
    Hmm, yeah I can see that. Perhaps a better solution would have been to simply create Crossplay Specific Maps.
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  • Pixie40Pixie40 Posts: 173
    Art3mis
    edited August 1
    Maybe. As for the missing "clutter", this could be a case of them not having converted those assets over yet due to prioritizing the main elements.

    EDIT: Which isn't to say people should be upset. I just think it's too soon to go into a full blown "boycott the game" nerdrage.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,844 Valuable Player
    edited August 1
    Digikid1 said:

    That is HORRIBLE!!!!  Wow!!!

    kojack
    said:

    Oh god, that looks worse than I thought.




    Looks like someone just met the Snapdragon 835, lol. I've had some encounters, like:










    I get low poly allergy when round becomes a hexagon or octagon (=Shadow Point), but worst is the constant lack of textures - now I can't help constantly focusing on that when trying Quest ports. Down The Rabbit Hole is nice, especially using CV1 where SDE helps making low-res look slightly more high-res - and when zoomed out like in this game poly levels look better. Shooty Skies Overdrive probably is my favorite Quest port - because it works in perfect 120 Hz res 200% with the Index  B) Might have kept Lies Beneath if that game worked with Revive 1.9.2, but it did not. Pistol Whip is a great Quest Port too. 
    The remaining of the above games I wanted to like, but it was not possible for me - these games look ten times worse when inside VR, while trailers may help cover up the low poly levels and missing textures. I care too much about graphics to easily be absorbed in pure game-play. 
    If Quest was the only HMD available, I'd probably be playing Doom Eternal right now and other pancake games. This isn't the kind of VR I've grown to love - blame Lone Echo and Alyx for that ;)
    Even if I have the Samsung S10+, which has like 50% more gpu power than Quest, I only got Blades installed, and have played it for 15 minutes - I usually don't spend my time on games with such poor graphics, when my backlog is filled with much more impressive alternatives. 

    Note that true Quest ports of course aren't the same as "games appearing first on Quest and then become available for Rift/PCVR". Vader Immortal isn't a Quest port - it was first made for PCVR and then cut down for Quest - same goes for Phantom: Covert Ops. A true Quest port is when you get same poly levels and (missing) textures for PCVR as in the original Quest version.  And that's how you make everybody happy - always start with PCVR, then cut it down for Quest.  
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
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