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Some (Worrying) Horizon Rules

Hiro_Protag0nistHiro_Protag0nist Posts: 4,993 Valuable Player
Having seen the videos for Horizon, i've got to say i'm a little disappointed - I don't think it's what i'm after so it's unlikely i'll use it - not a problem.  Facebook laid out these observation and moderation tools in a “Horizon Safety Video” and explained them in further detail in an interview with Road to VR.

First, all the users in Horizon are involuntarily recording each other. The last few minutes of everything that users see and hear is recorded on a rolling basis. Facebook says this recording is stored on the headset itself, unless one user reports another, at which point the recording may be sent to Facebook to check for rule violations. The company says that the recording will be deleted once the report is concluded.

Second, anyone you interact with can invite an invisible observer from Facebook to come surveil you and your conversations in real-time to make sure you don’t break any rules. The company says this can happen when one user reports another or when other “signals” are detected, such as several players blocking or muting each other in quick succession. Users will not be notified when they’re being watched.

And third, everything you say, do, and build in Horizon is subject to Facebook's Community Standards.  So while in a public space you’re free to talk about anything you want, in Horizon there a many perfectly legal topics that you can’t discuss without fear of punitive action being taken against your account.


https://www.roadtovr.com/facebook-horizon-privacy-monitoring-moderation/


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Comments

  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 6,198 Volunteer Moderator
    Difficult to know how best to moderate an open VR world like Horizon.

    Unlike a forum where everything is in one place, where everything is recorded and kept and can be viewed by moderators and everyone else on the forum, an open world where individuals choose who to talk to is something else. Potentially thousands of separate interactions taking place at any single time.

    How should a world like that be moderated? I assume most people agree it should be moderated but what's the least worse way of doing it?

    Dashcams have rolling record and store the last few minutes when you press the button, same principal with most home security so that element of Horizon is ok with me.

    The invisible wittiness thing is a bit different and I'm not sure why that's needed of you have rolling record. You say it will happen when someone invites a mod but also only happens when someone is reported... I assume those two are the same thing i.e. it's when someone is reported plus when certain triggers happen as you say, like multiple ignores.

    I think it's the invisible witness thing that's an issue. Someone behaving badly will probably change their behaviour if they know a moderator's there so I can understand the benefit of not knowing they're there but I think that's not the best solution.

    I would have thought the rolling record function would be enough plus have visible moderators wondering around that can be called if needed.
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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,778 Valuable Player
    edited September 4
    I wonder what that would look like in the real world. Can you imagine sat in a pub talking to someone, they then go to the bog (toliet) and you request that someone sits under the table and listens to the conversation (no such things as an invisible man IRL yet). Then in the blink of an eye you are lifted out of your seat by bouncer Bill and ejected :D:p

    Joking aside, there are some good idea's to this, I've seen what some of these chat apps are like and this might give those wanting to act sensible a break.
  • Hiro_Protag0nistHiro_Protag0nist Posts: 4,993 Valuable Player
    haha yeah that's what I tried to do - relate everything to the real world.  Now, i'm a big fan of having real police policing - you know, like they used to.  I suppose Horizon doesn't need that because they can just "be anywhere" when required.  In the real world sure, we report people and the plod come round (eventually    :) ).  

    We also need to build relationships with people in the real world.  We build them if we like someone and we avoid people we don't want to deal with.  If you watch their safety video "with a single tap" you are in a safety zone.  With a couple of other taps you can mute a person, block a person and report them.  No need for the stazi really is there?

    Nobody can follow you home, nobody can beat you up or stab you, so really it's all about people saying nasty things is it?  How much safer (it is nothing to do with safety really, is it!) do you want the internet to be?
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,708 Valuable Player
    We really need to see this in action - its like trying to guess the quality of a nightclub before getting pass the bouncers!
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,535 Valuable Player
    Reminds me of when my bosses, boss created a jokes group on Teams. Great way to get fired with all the over sensitivity there is about today. Suffice to say I am not that desperate for a joke or a VR Chat.
  • ShocksVRShocksVR Posts: 560
    Neo
    So the same rules that apply to Oculus Venues (which has been available since 2018) also apply to Facebook Horizons.

    I do agree the 'Big Brother' factor is off putting, but I guess I'm just surprised the VR community and VR media is only now picking up on these Oculus/FB monitoring practices.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,375 Valuable Player
    edited September 4
    First, all the users in Horizon are involuntarily recording each other.

    And in real life:
    • People are being involuntarily recorded by other people using their smart phones.
    • People are being recorded by Alexa, yet they not only put Alexa in their homes, but in their vehicles too.
    Go look at YouTube and LiveLeak to see all of the people around the world being recorded involuntarily. Hell, even PornHub has a category for this.
    ;)

    I'm less worried about being recorded in Horizons and far more worried about being recorded in the real world. Especially pre-pandemic when I was hitting up the pub's on the weekends.


    RedRizla said:
    Can you imagine sat in a pub talking to someone, they then go to the bog (toliet) and you request that someone sits under the table and listens to the conversation (no such things as an invisible man IRL yet). Then in the blink of an eye you are lifted out of your seat by bouncer Bill and ejected

    Well you could just leave your smart phone on the table with an Audio Recording app enabled. It is 2020 afterall!
  • MradrMradr Posts: 4,151 Valuable Player
    edited September 4
    Everything else is fine - that's pretty normal in most games. That last part though is a bit worrying " So while in a public space you’re free to talk about anything you want, in Horizon there a many perfectly legal topics that you can’t discuss without fear of punitive action being taken against your account." In that you can be just discussing something and boom a ban comes at you. That seems a bit harsh. 

    I assume there will be getting a lot of petty reports and using things discuss out of context.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,778 Valuable Player
    edited September 4
    Zenbane said:
    RedRizla said:
    Can you imagine sat in a pub talking to someone, they then go to the bog (toliet) and you request that someone sits under the table and listens to the conversation (no such things as an invisible man IRL yet). Then in the blink of an eye you are lifted out of your seat by bouncer Bill and ejected

    Well you could just leave your smart phone on the table with an Audio Recording app enabled. It is 2020 afterall!

    I agree, so why the need for a moderator to be called to listen in when Horizon is already recording you? My analogy was to do with a person being called in to listen to the conversation like in Horizons. I wondered what that would look like in real life and came up with a little joke about a guy hidden under the table.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 6,410 Valuable Player
    kevinw729 said:
    We really need to see this in action - its like trying to guess the quality of a nightclub before getting pass the bouncers!

    Kinda does make you want to think twice about asking a lot of people and kids where to find virtual preservatives, when you've just met 3 virtual super-attractive women from Sweden, Japan and Africa - and we're trying to find a virtual hotel room. 

    Meetings in the backroom of Club RedRizla for a virtual joint and to trade virtual pirated movies showing different ways of human reproduction might also easily be misunderstood by Facebook representatives  :#  
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  • bitziebitzie Posts: 62
    Hiro Protagonist
    None of this is surprising at all and realistically already happens in any MMO, web forum, Discord server, etc out there. Horizons is not a public space. It's a space run by Facebook. So of course they will have to have systems in place to record peoples' interactions so that if a complaint is made, it can be acted upon with actual evidence, not just "he said, she said" arguments. The same logic applies to the second point of an invisible moderator. As for the third, well I hate to break it to you again, but Horizons is not a public space. It's a Facebook-run space and therefore can and will be moderated to their liking. If you don't like certain topics being banned, go somewhere else. It's no different than the forums here or anywhere else.

    As much as I am not a fan of Facebook and only use it begrudgingly, getting worked up about these kind of things is pointless. These rules are to be found all over the internet already and have been for literally decades. Facebook is by no means the first to implement such rules and nor will they be the last.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,375 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:
    I agree, so why the need for a moderator to be called to listen in when Horizon is already recording you? My analogy was to do with a person being called in to listen to the conversation like in Horizons. I wondered what that would look like in real life and came up with a little joke about a guy hidden under the table.

    Yeah... why do we even need a Judge or a Jury in the court systems if we already have audio and video recordings? AMIRIGHT??
     :D 
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,778 Valuable Player
    edited September 4
    Zenbane said:
    RedRizla said:
    I agree, so why the need for a moderator to be called to listen in when Horizon is already recording you? My analogy was to do with a person being called in to listen to the conversation like in Horizons. I wondered what that would look like in real life and came up with a little joke about a guy hidden under the table.

    Yeah... why do we even need a Judge or a Jury in the court systems if we already have audio and video recordings? AMIRIGHT??
     :D 

    Well if we are talking about a mobile phone with a recording app placed on a pub table like you said, then depending what the crime was it could be used as evidence against a person when it was brought before a Judge. So, if Horizons is already using a recording this could be used for Facebook to make a decision later on.

    But we are talking about some being called in to listen in to a conversation as it is happening in Horizons. An invisible moderator who will judge that person there and then, so no need for the mobile phone and recording app. So yeah, maybe Bouncer Bill needs to hide under the table then and he can act as judge while he listens to the conversation live. That way he can make up his mind there and then and eject them :D

    I have a mate who's a bouncer called Bill, just in case anyone's wounder where that name came from :)
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,375 Valuable Player
    edited September 4
    RedRizla said:
    Well if we are talking about a mobile phone with a recording app placed on a pub table like you said, then depending what the crime was it could be used as evidence against a person when it was brought before a Judge. So, if Horizons is already using a recording this could be used for Facebook to make a decision later on.

    But we are talking about some being called in to listen in to a conversation as it is happening in Horizons. An invisible moderator and will judge that person there and then, so no need for the mobile phone and recording app. So yeah, maybe Bouncer Bill needs to hide under the table then and he can act as judge while he listens to conversation live. That way he can make up his mind there and then and eject them :D

    In the legal example, you admit that the Judge would listen to the recording evidence.

    But in the Horizons example, you don't understand how a Moderator would listen despite their being recording evidence?

    They are both the exact same scenario.

    Regardless, it seems that your main issue revolves around the fact that the Moderator would listen "in real time," which you believe isn't necessary if everything is being recorded.

    So... do we really need to have a conversation about context and discriminative judgement?

    Watching a recording doesn't always give context. A live witness is always better.

    For Facebook, any decision they make will be based on multiple factors, just as with a court system. That is why in court cases with evidence, they still bring in witnesses to testify in front of a Judge and/or Jury.

    It's quite standard practice that has existed since at least the 1700's. Not sure what all the fuss is about.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,778 Valuable Player
    I was just making a joke about what it would look like IRL. that's why I went on to say: "Joking aside, there are some good idea's to this, I've seen what some of these chat apps are like and this might give those wanting to act sensible a break."

    You see, I don't have any issues with it at all. I mentioned there are some good idea's with it even though I won't be using it myself because it's not my thing.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,375 Valuable Player
    edited September 4
    RedRizla said:
    I was just making a joke about what it would look like IRL


    Right, but you also tried to  make an actual point when you said this, right?
    so why the need for a moderator to be called to listen in when Horizon is already recording you?

    That was stated later, and not part of a joke. It is that statement that I'm responding to.


    RedRizla said:
     I won't be using it myself because it's not my thing.

    Fair enough. But it's your thing to have some thoughts and opinion about it despite you not wanting to use it. So here we are. Sharing thoughts and opinions about it.

    And for the record, Horizons is my thing. So is sharing thoughts and opinions.  :)
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,778 Valuable Player
    edited September 4
    I made the point about why the need for a moderator listening in because I was answering you when you said: "Well you could just leave your smart phone on the table with an Audio Recording app enabled. It is 2020 afterall!"
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,375 Valuable Player
    edited September 4
    RedRizla said:
    I made the point about why the need for a moderator listening in because I was answering you when you said: "Well you could just leave your smart phone on the table with an Audio Recording app enabled. It is 2020 afterall!"

    Yes, I said that in response to your analogy, "Can you imagine sat in a pub talking to someone, they then go to the bog (toliet) and you request that someone sits under the table and listens to the conversation."

    You see... in Horizons there are 2 factors:
    • A media recording
    • A live Moderator

    In your IRL analogy of the pub scenario, you only have 1 factor:
    • A live Moderator

    What I was doing by suggesting the smart phone recording at the table, was fixing your analogy, so that it can have both the media recording and the live Moderator. Your analogy fails because you don't need someone sitting under the table, that would be your smart phones job. 

    Or to think of this another way,

    Consider how things work at a Bank. You have a security guard sitting in a room watching audio/video recordings. This is common with something called, CCTV.



    ^^
    This is exactly what is happening with Horizons. And it mirrors what happens IRL. So your analogy about needing someone to hide under the table doesn't really apply.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,778 Valuable Player
    Zenbane said:

    Fair enough. But it's your thing to have some thoughts and opinion about it despite you not wanting to use it. So here we are. Sharing thoughts and opinions about it.

    And for the record, Horizons is my thing. So is sharing thoughts and opinions.  :)

    I have seen many people sharing thoughts and opinions about things they know they won't use or buy in this forum. So I'm no different to anyone else.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,912 Valuable Player
    Actually I feel good about Big Brother listening in. Will hopefully stop kiddy fiddlers from grooming potential victims, or at least catch them at it when they try it.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,375 Valuable Player
    edited September 4
    RedRizla said:
    I have seen many people sharing thoughts and opinions about things they know they won't use or buy in this forum. So I'm no different to anyone else.

    I never said you were different to anyone else. I was just responding to you saying this, "I won't be using it myself because it's not my thing."

    Although for the record, I rarely spend time giving opinions about things I haven't used or intend not to use. That's not really my thing.

    That's all irrelevant though. We were talking about Horizon's recordings + live monitoring.
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 4,274 Valuable Player
    Moderators probably on cue when key words are ushered. Voice recognition can pick these up and a human mod can investigate without the participants knowing. I guess this really helps if people choose to be racist for example or plotting a terrorist attack. The other tools also are helpful for those being bullied or sexually assaulted verbally. Those on the receiving end can call up the moderator and the person caught in the act and IP banned whatever. 

    That said, the element of fear might just be enough once this knowledge becomes widespread then it kind of polices itself. 


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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,778 Valuable Player
    I wonder if it would just be Horizons you were banned from, or if it would extend to your Facebook account for the Oculus Quest. I'm thinking it would be just from Horizons.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,375 Valuable Player
    edited September 4

    Facebook typically issues Warnings first, then temporary bans.

    A full ban, even at the IP level, would take a lot of deliberate malintent.

    But who is going to spend all that money on a piece of hardware just to get themselves locked out of using it? I'm sure there are some that have no problem wasting money this way, but they will be in the extreme minority.

    I wonder how many of the consumers who believe all the "doom and gloom" hype are actually planning to use Horizons. My perception is that most of the 'negative predictions' come from consumers that have no interest in Oculus, Facebook, or Horizons.

    Consumers typically need to convince themselves that another product/service is "bad" to avoid any buyer's remorse.
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,708 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:
    I wonder if it would just be Horizons you were banned from, or if it would extend to your Facebook account for the Oculus Quest. I'm thinking it would be just from Horizons.

    A good point - and many forums are discussing that at the moment. The consensus is that the FB warning would be reflected across your services. But it will be a long learning process and mistakes will obviously be made. The debate seems more on what will happen to ReVIVE and content owned by the account if problems happen. The big one is modded content in particular explaining possibly why the modding of Beat Saber was curtailed. 
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,375 Valuable Player

    Well now here's something that is actually factual. Granted, this is how all party systems work, but I imagine a lot of newbies won't realize this at first...



  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,535 Valuable Player
    Some good points made, I’ll probably give it’ a go. 

    I was wondering if it’s a persistent world? Does your creations only appear when you do?  

    I am not a fan of visiting people’s places via a loading screen, it would just be like rooms. Happy for fast travel but it all should be in actual locations. I think they should start building a persistent city. Not really looked at the detail but they need to give people incentive to build.

    Imagine the land rush to build near the city centre, that would get people motivated.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,778 Valuable Player
    edited September 6
    kevinw729 said:
    RedRizla said:
    I wonder if it would just be Horizons you were banned from, or if it would extend to your Facebook account for the Oculus Quest. I'm thinking it would be just from Horizons.

    The debate seems more on what will happen to ReVIVE and content owned by the account if problems happen. The big one is modded content in particular explaining possibly why the modding of Beat Saber was curtailed. 

    I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Revive stop working in the not too distant future. If they want you to sign up to a Facebook account to login to Oculus VR headsets and play games, then I can't see how they will continue to allow you to use another VR headset and Revive that wouldn't require a Facebook account. 
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,708 Valuable Player
    Agreed @RedRizla - its part of the reason that it does not seem to be a topic coming up at the moment. I think most owners are keeping their powder dry till they see the FC7 presentation, and see the first deployment, then I expect this to be a hot ticket item. Behind the scenes ReVIVE has been a very profitable platform for some developers, and with the door closed on this (including removal from the HL:A community), then thing will take on a brand new dimension. 

  • OmegaM4NOmegaM4N Posts: 941
    3Jane
    edited September 6
    ^^^I think this has been on the cards for some time to be honest, and moreso since the Quest plonked $100 million in software sales and apps from the Quests closed revenue system store right into FB and Quest devs laps in only 12 months, so no doubt why FB are now turning the heat up slowly so the frog just sits there unaware until the lid has closed. lol



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