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New VR Behavior Policy: Do not invade someone's personal space!

ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,655 Valuable Player
Facebook's VR use policy was updated recently, and now includes information about invading personal space, and other types of improper gestures.

https://support.oculus.com/1694069410806625/
Facebook’s newly updated ‘Conduct in VR Policy‘ highlights that you should not “harass or bully other users” by “invading personal space without consent,” nor should you “conduct yourself in an offensive or abusive way,” including making “sexual gestures.”

Repeated of flagrant abuses of the rules can result in suspensions or outright bans, which fully revoke your ability to use your headset. These rules apply in everything you do in the headset, whether you’re playing a social VR experience, a competitive multiplayer VR game, or even streaming a single player experience for others to watch on Facebook Live.
https://www.roadtovr.com/facebook-expanded-vr-policies-oculus-quest-2-privacy-policy-terms-of-service/

No doubt that this will only add fuel to the fires currently burning around the controversy between:
  • Banned from a Social Media Service
  • Banned from using a piece of Hardware you purchased

I agree that this is very problematic. I would personally be upset if Facebook banned my Account and tried to lock me out of my headset. But I also have a fairly strong sense of the types of behavior and should and should not be doing when interacting with others. And considering that I am far from a model student for "good behavior," I still can't help but wonder what types of things truly trigger a Facebook ban, outside of blatantly obvious rule violations. Until this ban/lockout happens to me, though, I feel like I don't have much of a dog in this fight.

What does interest me from all of this... is that "convergence" of VR and Real Life. At this stage, Oculus VR is being treated like a "real world." And violating rules, much like violating Laws, is having real consequences that can limit ones freedoms. When I set aside the moral dilemma around Consumer Rights, I can't help but thing... wow! How far we have come with technology.

With a ban from Oculus VR, not only are you prevented from using a product, but you are no longer allowed to "exist" in a Social Space that goes beyond a mere flat screen. That's kinda crazy, and gives a small glimpse of the future for humanity, virtual worlds, and Artificial Intelligence.
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Comments

  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 4,314 Valuable Player
    edited October 14
    Just remember that all your actions are being recorded, so when someone does make a complaint against you, the mods can see exactly how you acted and ban yer ass. Good to see Facebook, taking Virtual Reality virtually the same as reality.  Hmmm dunno, seems a bit too dystopian to me.

    Mike said: Kevin trod on my sand-castle and totally destroyed it. Wahhhh!!!

    Sandra said: Why not report him to the mods?

    Mike said: Great idea! *sobs*

    Mod looks at footage and listens to audio feed

    Kevin gets banned!

     :p 


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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,589 Valuable Player
    edited October 15
    The more I hear the more I’m glad the G2 is on its way ☹️
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,655 Valuable Player
    I may very well be ordering a G2 as well, but I have no regrets with Quest 2. It already has a strong userbase. Just walking around the new Venues area and seeing all the new people socializing was really fantastic.

    The real problems only occur when total strangers begin interacting. But that's just like any other place. Hell I've been in bar fights because someone violated my personal space lol

    So with Oculus VR and Facebook having this "marriage," people just need to stick to their own social circles. Hang out in VR with your family and friends. Don't run around getting in to rivalries with randomers.

    Or in other words... act like you would in a real life social setting. I look forward to seeing how all this plays out over the next 12 months. And I sure as hell hope I don't end up banned! I have to admit, it feels odd reading all these "ban events" over the last few weeks... and knowing that the conversation is about someone other than me. whew!
     :p 
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  • saami81saami81 Posts: 335
    Trinity
    Some apps/games have option for personal bubble, so no one can come into skin. I think that would be better option, than banning. Also i have heard rumours about something called "mute" and "ignore". People can use those, if they get easily offended.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 6,304 Volunteer Moderator
    I spent about an hour in Venues watching the Connect presentation whilst the entire time someone was jumping around the viewing area waving in people's faces and doing the confetti thing.

    It was interesting to watch just to see how people reacted but I assume complaints are already shaping Facebook's policies. I think there will always be two groups of people, one group who want a better experience and another who want less or no oversight.

    I think I'm in the former.
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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,589 Valuable Player
    edited October 15
    I was just thinking of my previous issue with my Son using my headset while I was out and getting the warning. I think people with Kids are going to need a Helmet Chastity belt if they don't want a ban :) 

    Invading peoples spaces, rude signs and acting like a jerk would probably get most people banned if the behavior is anything like a typical day in Rec Room land.

    Also fancy buying your kid a Quest 2 for Christmas and 10 games only to find out on day 2 its now a brick because he was acting like any teenager often does. 
  • OmegaM4NOmegaM4N Posts: 1,025
    Wintermute
    ^^^Maybe on the box the need to add in big wording " FB accounts may be banned at random without prior notice or reason"...........but  i will give FB their due, when they want to shoot themselves publically in the foot they are masters at it. lol
  • kojackkojack Posts: 6,913 Volunteer Moderator
    They really need a system with escalating levels, such as temporary bans that increase in length with each infraction, or maybe removal from certain games only if they have a more kid friendly intention. Like Rec Room has a lower threshold for bans than Onward, and VR Chat is just the wild west.

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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 6,304 Volunteer Moderator
    So far we've just had word of the policy for behaviour. For interventions Facebook's code of conduct explains that an intervention would happen of there have been multiple complaints, banning is unlikely to happen with any single infraction but I guess it depends on the severity.

    I totally agree that interventions need to be graduated depending on what's happened. That's probably why the record facility will be implemented in Horizon so users can provide something that can be properly judged.

    Allowing a teenage member of the family for example to use your account to interact socially with others is going to be the responsibility of the account holder. The more social abilities VR has, the more responsibility the account holder has.
    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 32GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v2004 (19041.508)
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 4,314 Valuable Player
    edited October 15
    But what happened to VR being an escape from reality, a place for fun and games, not this regulated extension of reality. Surely a simple block/mute user option is suffice? That kid blowing kisses, confetti and talking trash is having a whale of a time, except noone can see him/her and he/she is talking to him/herself.

     :( 


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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 6,304 Volunteer Moderator
    edited October 15
    I think what's happened over the past couple of years where companies and individuals have boycotted Facebook because of a perceived lack of action over applying rules has meant they've decided to start VR off on more firm guidelines and codes of conduct.

    Blocking is going to be possible in Horizon iirc but multiple blocks would trigger a moderator to look at what was causing those blocks to happen.
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  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,797 Valuable Player
    It would seem Facebook is using this new situation to test the waters and establish the foundation moving forward - marrying their free social media platform rules to a hardware / software purchase. It is a very important point where the individuals voice can be heard, and I think its important that users state how they feel so the word gets back to those making these decisions. 
    2xan55713klf.png
    https://vrawards.aixr.org/
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,936 Valuable Player
    edited October 15
    saami81 said:
    Some apps/games have option for personal bubble, so no one can come into skin. I think that would be better option, than banning. Also i have heard rumours about something called "mute" and "ignore". People can use those, if they get easily offended.

    This has been the thing for I don't know how long now and is all you really need. I think in VR Chat, for example all you do is click on someone who is acting like an idiot and make them disappear. I think what Facebook is looking for is heaven in VR where nobody does anything wrong, even though we all know the best of people make mistakes in life. If you don't want things like personal space invaded, then Facebook should just add it into the program like Alt Space does. Having to go running to a mod to say your personal space has been invaded is a bit daft when you can just add it into the program and take action before it even occurs.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,655 Valuable Player
    edited October 15
    jab said:
    The core of the problem her is actually pretty simple. FB is applying their already questionable free social network rules to HW products and games, and that makes no sense what so ever. Being a d**k in Horizon or FB general should get you banned from that particular app, but it should definitively not make your VR headset a paperweight. What is next? Nike only allowing shoes to be sold to attractive people to maintain their PR image?

    Fair points, and I would still qualify to buy and wear Nike in that scenario  ;)

    But just as the core of the problem is pretty simple, so is the solution: Don't buy Facebook products.

    If Facebook ever locks me out of my hardware/software, then that would be the last day I use anything branded by Facebook. Until then though, I'm fine exercising my consumer right to choose. 
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  • jabjab Posts: 295
    Nexus 6
    edited October 15
    Zenbane said:
    But just as the core of the problem is pretty simple, so is the solution: Don't buy Facebook products.
    And that is exactly what I am doing. I have put the DK1, DK2 and CV1 on the shelf for sentimental reasons, and just sold my Quest. The Rift-S was never on the radar, and Quest 2 is so far of the radar you would need a space telescope to find it.
    And when the FB login requirement hit this forum, you will all no longer have to read my rambling posts going on about privacy and user rights etc.. :)
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,655 Valuable Player
    jab said:
    And when the FB login requirement hit this forum, you will all no longer have to read my rambling posts going on about privacy and user rights etc.. :)

    It's quite common for people who are against Facebook to remain on a Facebook platform. It happens on Facebook all the time. Facebook itself doesn't really care if people speak out against Facebook. As long as people are using Facebook, even to speak out against Facebook, then Facebook gains value.

    Very few consumers actually exercise their privacy and user rights.
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  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,797 Valuable Player
    jab said:
    .....
    And when the FB login requirement hit this forum, you will all no longer have to read my rambling posts going on about privacy and user rights etc.. :)

    In the same boat brother. 
    2xan55713klf.png
    https://vrawards.aixr.org/
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • JohnnyDioxinJohnnyDioxin Posts: 2,684 Valuable Player
    Let's face it, stopping people from using their purchased hardware could be seen as something of a fascist policy (oh dear, am I going to be banned now?) where a much more appropriate and very achieveable measure would be to simply prevent people from using the social aspects of the system. That would be far more acceptable to the majority imho.

    So if you get snagged, you can't post on Facebook and you can't use multiplayer or social features of the Oculus platform. They already do that for those who haven't signed up or merged their FB accounts, so why is it not possible to do this as the ban instead?

    I really doubt that stopping use of the hardware without some kind of recompense is legal. I look forward to the first legal cases where the wrong person gets a ban and takes FB before The Beak.




  • jabjab Posts: 295
    Nexus 6
    Let's face it, stopping people from using their purchased hardware could be seen as something of a fascist policy
    Or just down right illegal, which is why I keep hinting at that class act lawsuit I think is just around the corner.
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,797 Valuable Player
    Its less what is legal or illegal, and more what the buying customer base is prepared to accept.

    The reason that there is a possible reversal over the Facebook login for the short term, is due to the audience (community) reaction to the original news - the attempts to spin this as "what every manufacturer does" did not work, especially as this decision was done after many had purchased current hardware, without this mandate. The attempt to say this is not an issue, that we should live with, or that this should only be discussed behind closed doors - are issues that illustrate a move internally to try and manage the optics of this issue. And so reflects that if enough users rebel / demand then this could be reversed.

    I wish you well in trying to reverse this, as I doubt I will be able to continue that fight under the current conditions. 
    2xan55713klf.png
    https://vrawards.aixr.org/
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,655 Valuable Player
    edited October 15
    kevinw729 said:
     the attempts to spin this as "what every manufacturer does" did not work, especially as this decision was done after many had purchased current hardware, without this mandate. 

    Spinning a spin doesn't help either. For those who bought Oculus hardware prior to this mandate, they are able to continue using their Oculus VR products without linking to Facebook. Trying to spin that differently doesn't really provide value to the current situation.


    kevinw729 said:
    The attempt to say this is not an issue, that we should live with, or that this should only be discussed behind closed doors 

    None of that has actually been said though. This is definitely an issue, but the consumer has the ability to make a decision on how to resolve this issue for themselves. Since legacy Oculus owners are grandfathered in to the process without having to create a Facebook Account, new users can simply avoid purchasing Facebook VR products; as this rule only applies to new users.

    Any new users today who recently purchased their Quest 2 can send them back for a full refund. As Quest 2 has only been out for a few days and well within the refund period.

    Sending units back for a refund is a great way to let Facebook know that this is unacceptable. Forcing a refund is one of the most powerful ways to exercise consumer power and let a company know that change is needed. Posting on forums does nothing to make progress in these types of situations.


    if enough users rebel / demand then this could be reversed.


    Yes, this is very much true. And the "rebel/demand" part comes from forcing refunds; not posting hyperbole on forums.
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  • OmegaM4NOmegaM4N Posts: 1,025
    Wintermute
    kevinw729 said:
    Its less what is legal or illegal, and more what the buying customer base is prepared to accept.

    The reason that there is a possible reversal over the Facebook login for the short term, is due to the audience (community) reaction to the original news - the attempts to spin this as "what every manufacturer does" did not work, especially as this decision was done after many had purchased current hardware, without this mandate. The attempt to say this is not an issue, that we should live with, or that this should only be discussed behind closed doors - are issues that illustrate a move internally to try and manage the optics of this issue. And so reflects that if enough users rebel / demand then this could be reversed.

    I wish you well in trying to reverse this, as I doubt I will be able to continue that fight under the current conditions. 
    What gets me is the fact they made what they must have known was going to be a unpopular decision by making FB accounts mandatory with the Q2, and then they could not even make that process trouble free, i mean talk about trying to extinguish a raging fire that you started by dousing it with even more fuel. Lol

  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,655 Valuable Player
    Nunyabinez said:
    On the other hand, I wasn't a fan of Apple's decision that nothing naughty could be on Apple App stores. People should be allowed to do what they want if it is legal, even if it would be offensive to other people. However, people who don't want to be exposed to certain things should not be forced to see them if they don't want to.

    Agreed with all of this. The main problem is with the legal side of things. In particular, Corporations have the same rights as Humans; at least here in the US. This became a fact enforced by legislation several years ago. It's difficult to discuss this without getting too political, so I'll keep my commentary short on the matter.

    The main issue we face is that... due to US legislation on Corporate Rights, a company like Facebook is free to treat their products/services in the same manner as you treat your own home. For example, I could pay you $100 to come to your house and have you cook me dinner. When I show up, if I start acting a fool, you have every right to keep my $100 and kick me out of your house. I will have little legal grounds to take action against you. At most, I may be able to have a court force you to refund my $100; but even that is suspect since you will have spent money in order to prepare my meal.

    More to the point, there is little I could do to convince our legal system to enact some restrictions upon you and your household to prevent you from charging other people $100 for your home cooked meal services. At most, I could probably get the court to force you to register your household as a business. But since US Legislation now mandates that, "Corporations are People," the outcome won't give me any advantage over you whatsoever.

    The real problem here is with corporate rights and US legislation. It seems that Facebook is one of the first organizations to start taking full advantage of new legally recognized situation.

    Whether it is good or bad is irrelevant. It's a legal matter. And in order to change it, the US would have to change its legislation. But considering the reason behind making this new legislation in the first place... I really doubt that this will ever happen.

    The moment that the new Legislation reinforced that "Corporations are People," it instantly allows any company to donate an unrestricted amount of money to any government official. The concept of Corporations having the same Rights as Humans began some 200 years ago in US history. And has only been further enforced as time goes on.

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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,655 Valuable Player
    edited October 15
    OmegaM4N said:
    What gets me is the fact they made what they must have known was going to be a unpopular decision by making FB accounts mandatory with the Q2, and then they could not even make that process trouble free, i mean talk about trying to extinguish a raging fire that you started by dousing it with even more fuel. Lol


    I agree that Facebook should have been far more prepared for this situation. I suspect that they didn't plan for their "automated system" to cause so many potentially unwarranted bans. This is most likely a "glitch in the system," and Facebook will need to remedy it by staffing more humans.

    Overall though, the fire is quite small. The number of users reporting this between this forum and reddit still measures in the dozens; while the number of users enjoying Quest 2 is in the thousands.

    This is a problem that needs to be managed and contained asap. But the ratio is still quite favorable.
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  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,797 Valuable Player
    edited October 15
    OmegaM4N said:
    ...
    What gets me is the fact they made what they must have known was going to be a unpopular decision by making FB accounts mandatory with the Q2, and then they could not even make that process trouble free, i mean talk about trying to extinguish a raging fire that you started by dousing it with even more fuel. Lol


    Yes I know, it does feel like a raging fire they could have avoided - no matter how it is down played. 

    From experience with dealing with a self induced blackeye, it would seem logical not to double down. May be just pause the full adoption of the system, and also start looking at a better process of arbitration put in place.

    I think this may be the tip of the iceberg as the last forum postings spoke of other people finding out they had similar problems, not bricked headsets, just inability to pair their accounts which sees another problem.

    I wonder how much of this implementation was taken from the newly restructured Facebook Reality Lab control and was handled by Facebooks MR team? Anyway, expect this to blow away with some serious backpedaling over the weekend. 
    2xan55713klf.png
    https://vrawards.aixr.org/
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,655 Valuable Player
    kevinw729 said:
    Yes I know, it does feel like a raging fire they could have avoided - no matter how it is down played. 

    Are we talking about the pandemic? Because the same logic applies! lol

    Seriously though, over-playing the current Oculus VR situation is just as futile as downplaying it.


    Anyway, expect this to blow away with some serious backpedaling over the weekend. 


    That's possible. I expect the opposite though. I expect Facebook to continue requiring a FB Account, but will simply remove the impact that a Ban has on HMD usage.

    There's simply no way for Facebook to coordinate updating all the Quest 2's on the market in order to implement a "backpedal." It is most physically impossible.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • OmegaM4NOmegaM4N Posts: 1,025
    Wintermute
    kevinw729 said:
    OmegaM4N said:
    ...
    What gets me is the fact they made what they must have known was going to be a unpopular decision by making FB accounts mandatory with the Q2, and then they could not even make that process trouble free, i mean talk about trying to extinguish a raging fire that you started by dousing it with even more fuel. Lol


    Yes I know, it does feel like a raging fire they could have avoided - no matter how it is down played. 

    From experience with dealing with a self induced blackeye, it would seem logical not to double down. May be just pause the full adoption of the system, and also start looking at a better process of arbitration put in place.

    I think this may be the tip of the iceberg as the last forum postings spoke of other people finding out they had similar problems, not bricked headsets, just inability to pair their accounts which sees another problem.

    I wonder how much of this implementation was taken from the newly restructured Facebook Reality Lab control and was handled by Facebooks MR team? Anyway, expect this to blow away with some serious backpedaling over the weekend. 
    Ha, no doubt, iit wil be interesting to see what they do.

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