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A Possible Reason Why The Quest 2 is So Cheap ?

kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,837 Valuable Player
I am not sure if this has been discussed on this forum before - but I have been watching a couple of videos and was struck by a point raised and wanted to discuss this here.

The key premise is that:

>The Quest 2 is so cheap not only because of cost saving in the manufacturing process from the Quest-1 - but fundamentally Facebook are "loaning" this to users, with only the carriage and minimal costs being paid for. With this undertaking and acceptance of the terms and Facebook login the user is agreeing to using a Facebook subsidized device, rather than buying a product they wholly own. That would explain the various control issues of banning improper use, and the removal of access to what Facebook feels is their hardware.

[Facebook has subsidies the Quest-2 and ecosystem, and retain ownership of it]

I wonder how people feel about this, do they think the premise is incorrect and no matter what they wholly own their purchase? 
2xan55713klf.png
https://vrawards.aixr.org/
"The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
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Comments

  • hoppingbunny123hoppingbunny123 Posts: 973
    Neo
    i tied it to my rift cv1 so they own my cv1 now i guess facebook owns my cv1, but i owned it first. down the rabbit hole we go. turtles and turtles.
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,837 Valuable Player
    i tied it to my rift cv1 so they own my cv1 now i guess facebook owns my cv1, but i owned it first. down the rabbit hole we go. turtles and turtles.

    I dont think this would apply to the discontinued lines (CV1, Go, Rift-S[1/21] or the Quest-1). This would be directly linked to the low cost of ownership to use the Quest-2.
    2xan55713klf.png
    https://vrawards.aixr.org/
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • hoppingbunny123hoppingbunny123 Posts: 973
    Neo
    edited October 18
    incorrect, they tied it to my rift In The Future (2023). Saying they own my cv1 when i owned it first. if i lose facebook i lose my rift!
  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 6,226 Volunteer Moderator
    The physical product is wholly owned; Facebook cannot demand that I return it to them, and if I choose to destroy it, I don’t think they can charge me for damages. Any non-ownership of the physical hardware by the purchaser would have to spelled out in an EULA or a lease contract. Now, the software that runs on it and makes it functional, that is a service, provided by Facebook and subject to their terms. 

    I assume this in relation to the attempts to jailbreak the device. If Facebook goes after the people attempting this, it won’t be on grounds of who owns the hardware, it will be about the software that runs on it. Modifying the OS and base software would be a violation of the TOS, but also could subject them to a lawsuit over IP infringement. If they were distributing a modified version of the OS to allow users to bypass Facebook, that’s piracy, and could lead to some severe penalties. Replacing the whole OS from scratch would not be a trivial matter; there’s a lot of development in the software to do the tracking, maintain spacial awareness, etc. It would be an almost impossible task to recreate the Quest OS while also not copying anything from the original. Anyone attempting this is walking into a legal minefield. 
    i7 5820K @ 4.25GHz | EVGA GTX 1080 SC | Gigabyte GA-X99-UD4 | Corsair DDR4 3000 32GB | Corsair HX 750W
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  • cmat100cmat100 Posts: 40
    Brain Burst
    edited October 18
    It would have to be sold on that basis, which it isn't.  Also, there would have to be T&Cs for the device to be returned to FB.  But I do agree that it's a loss leader.

    I think there is a legal void with regards to denying use of local apps i.e. the device, based on an online account disable.  It's never been done before, so I think that in a court, somewhere, precedent will be set.
  • hoppingbunny123hoppingbunny123 Posts: 973
    Neo
    edited October 18
    nalex66 said:
    The physical product is wholly owned
    without software the product is nothing. same principle as gas for a car or electricity for electronics. they call this kind of control monopoly and have companies sell their product so they aren't a monopoly like they want to do with the chrome browser. to stop google from monopolizing with the chrome browser. i should have alternatives if my Facebook account goes belly up like a floating fish. but with its monopoly i can't do that. hence they own it even if i can destroy the physical part of it. i owned it then they own it and they didn't even pay me for it.
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,837 Valuable Player
    nalex66 said:
    ......
    It would be an almost impossible task to recreate the Quest OS while also not copying anything from the original. Anyone attempting this is walking into a legal minefield. 

    Agree, I have been clear about the "infringement of brand and proprietary software" issue, but we have seen claims that as Nintendo does not do anything over Jailbroke Switches then Facebook wont - and I have my doubts this is measuring "apples with oranges". I still wonder if its a internal perception with Facebook - feeling they are making this ecosystem at a loss, am making available cheap means to enter the experience, but expect to be able to control access?
    2xan55713klf.png
    https://vrawards.aixr.org/
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 6,226 Volunteer Moderator
    kevinw729 said:
    nalex66 said:
    ......
    It would be an almost impossible task to recreate the Quest OS while also not copying anything from the original. Anyone attempting this is walking into a legal minefield. 

    Agree, I have been clear about the "infringement of brand and proprietary software" issue, but we have seen claims that as Nintendo does not do anything over Jailbroke Switches then Facebook wont - and I have my doubts this is measuring "apples with oranges". I still wonder if its a internal perception with Facebook - feeling they are making this ecosystem at a loss, am making available cheap means to enter the experience, but expect to be able to control access?

    Absolutely, they want to control the platform, and I’m sure their legal team will go hard after anyone trying to excise Facebook software from the physical hardware. 
    nalex66 said:
    The physical product is wholly owned
    without software the product is nothing.
    That’s true, but the physical product is the only part that you unequivocally own when you buy it. Everything else is a service with a license to use, subject to the EULA. If you want to turn your Quest 2 into a wind chime or a piece of sculptural art, go for it. If you want to wipe the OS and replace it with something else, you’d better be confident that what you install doesn’t infringe on Facebook’s intellectual property, because they will protect that by whatever legal means they have at their disposal. 
    i7 5820K @ 4.25GHz | EVGA GTX 1080 SC | Gigabyte GA-X99-UD4 | Corsair DDR4 3000 32GB | Corsair HX 750W
    SSDs: Intel 660p M.2 2TB, Samsung 860 Evo 1TB, 850 Evo 1TB, 840 Evo 1TB | Startech 4 controller PCIe USB 3.0
  • hoppingbunny123hoppingbunny123 Posts: 973
    Neo
    edited October 18
    for instance, with youtube i got a warning that my movieclips video i used was lewd, but they kept the movieclips version and only i got the warning and rebuke. ok, now i set all my videos to 18+ so none of my future videos will get me banned because its what i have to do to be sure for some odd reason i got banned doesn't happen. that 18+ wall is like a new service outside of youtubes control for nurse ratchet like abuse. facebooks control of my rift should be no different if my account gets banned for whatever reason i should have a back door to still be able to use my device. like my 18+ loophole in youtube making their big sister glare meaningless. they wont even respond to my appeal! whoever designed facebooks authoritarian nurse ratchet like control over the oculus should be ashamed of themselves! Facebooks worse than google at least google gave me the 18+ loophole, its not loaded!




  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,837 Valuable Player
    nalex66 said:
    ....
    That’s true, but the physical product is the only part that you unequivocally own when you buy it. Everything else is a service with a license to use, subject to the EULA. If you want to turn your Quest 2 into a wind chime or a piece of sculptural art, go for it. If you want to wipe the OS and replace it with something else, you’d better be confident that what you install doesn’t infringe on Facebook’s intellectual property, because they will protect that by whatever legal means they have at their disposal. 

    I just heard an eluent response to my point:

    >"...you are not buying a standalone VR product, you are being given access to buy a "Facebook VR ecosystem viewing system" - this is the same argument as was used with the 'Cable TV Boxes'. You buy them, you own them, but without the cable (content) then they are useless, and you needed to have an account to get access to the content that the provider controlled. Trying to use the cable box without permission - hacking into the cable content, or modifying the box, broke the ToS and also laid the user open to action."

    I think this is a very simple definition of what Facebook is trying to achieve - do you agree?
    2xan55713klf.png
    https://vrawards.aixr.org/
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • OmegaM4NOmegaM4N Posts: 1,057
    Wintermute
    edited October 18
    ^^^Do you know what is the funniest thing about all this, when this device gets jailbroken, FB will have subsidised the cheapest pcvr wireless gaming streaming device for Steamvr. Lol
  • cmat100cmat100 Posts: 40
    Brain Burst
    edited October 18
    The analogy has several flaws, e.g. Cable TV is sold as a subscription service, and doesn't rely on ToS (civil) but copyright law (civil/criminal).  The jailbreak wasn't the issue so much (AACS encryption key controversy), but the TV piracy was....

    But, yeah, that is what FB has achieved with the Quest 2.  Without the pesky subscription though ;)  Until the s**t hits the fan that is.

    EDIT:  AACS isn't the best analogy either, but best I can think of ATM.
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,837 Valuable Player
    cmat100 said:
    The analogy has several flaws, e.g. Cable TV is sold as a subscription service, and doesn't rely on ToS (civil) but copyright law (civil/criminal).  The jailbreak wasn't the issue so much (AACS encryption key controversy), but the TV piracy was....

    But, yeah, that is what FB has achieved with the Quest 2.  Without the pesky subscription though ;)  Until the s**t hits the fan that is.

    EDIT:  AACS isn't the best analogy either, but best I can think of ATM.

    May be showing my age, but when the BSkyB cable boxes were launched, you had to buy the cable box and satellite receiver separately and then the subscription @cmat100
     - I know when I moved to the US the cable box deal was different in some States. 




    2xan55713klf.png
    https://vrawards.aixr.org/
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • cmat100cmat100 Posts: 40
    Brain Burst
    Oh, I remember the SVA1 and the Marcus Khun / Voyager days very well ;):)  D2MAC as well, but we digress :)
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,837 Valuable Player
    Agree back on topic @cmat100 :smile:

    But the issue of the OS of the headset is the real issue - most of the Jailbroken systems that have missed legal action have avoided serious manipulation or alteration of the core operation infrastructure, for the Quest-2 to be jailbroken to the needs of running STEAMVR or avoiding the login element will see manipulation of the core, and in walks the legal argument. Very much how Warner tried to catch video pirates back in the day. 

    I still think the TV Cable Box is an eloquent metaphor. 
    2xan55713klf.png
    https://vrawards.aixr.org/
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,742 Valuable Player
    edited October 18
    kevinw729 said:
    nalex66 said:
    ......
    It would be an almost impossible task to recreate the Quest OS while also not copying anything from the original. Anyone attempting this is walking into a legal minefield. 

    Agree, I have been clear about the "infringement of brand and proprietary software" issue, but we have seen claims that as Nintendo does not do anything over Jailbroke Switches then Facebook wont - and I have my doubts this is measuring "apples with oranges".

    Yes, I brought up the Nintendo comparison, but I think I'm being misquoted. As I never said that Facebook "wont" do anything.

    Here's my actual statements:

    Facebook has enough money to address this issue, and it wouldn't surprise me if they do make updates to their software that makes this sort of thing difficult. 

    In the end, this "jailbreak Quest 2" situation will have just as much impact on Oculus VR as jailbreaking the Nintendo Switch has on Nintendo, etc.

    https://forums.oculusvr.com/community/discussion/comment/771101#Comment_771101


    In my first quote, I specifically state that they will do something (update their software to make it more difficult). I even called out the potential return for the DRM Check.

    The fact does remain that Nintendo does not try to stop people from posting YouTube Videos about how to hack in to their devices.

    Anyone can see for themselves:
    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jailbreak+nintendo

    Comparing the Quest to the Nintendo Switch is not "apples to oranges" whatsoever. They are both stand alone gaming devices, and Nintendo switch does have VR capabilities:
    https://www.amazon.com/OIVO-Headset-Nintendo-Virtual-Reality/dp/B07TBPLQJS

    I suppose that for the average consumer, the fact that Nintendo is more of a hand-held gaming device as its primary function... it can be "viewed" as "entirely different" than the Oculus Quest. However, as a developer and engineer myself, they are very much apples-to-apples.

    • Switch runs on a proprietary OS and runs software
    • Quest runs on Android OS and runs software.
    • Both are used for Gaming, Media, and Entertainment. 
    • Both have VR Capabilities.
    • Both are portable.
    • Both use WiFi.
    • Both require user accounts.

    It doesn't get more Apples-to-Apples than that. But perhaps I'm missing something here?

    Lastly, while I do believe that Facebook will do something about this (e.g. the return of the DRM check), I still stand by my statement that any jailbroken Quest's will have as much impact on Facebook/Oculus as a jailbroken Switch has on Nintendo.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,742 Valuable Player
    edited October 18
    Regarding the main post,

    With this undertaking and acceptance of the terms and Facebook login the user is agreeing to using a Facebook subsidized device

    I'm pretty sure that "subsidizing" doesn't work this way, since subsidizing requires payment of real money; and signing up for a Facebook account, which is entirely FREE, doesn't really qualify.

    At best, this whole situation is a sneaky way for Facebook to gain more users. But considering that the Oculus VR users can sign up for their Facebook account and then "set it and forget it," the overall value it provides Facebook would be rather minimal. Facebook makes revenue based on its ads, and if you aren't using their social media platform, then you aren't viewing those ads. As of yet, Oculus VR has zero ads. I suppose if we start seeing Ads in Oculus VR, then sure, maybe we're closer to a subsidized situation. But even that is a bit of a stretch, and really does butcher the whole idea of subsidizing.

    I am currently wrapping up an Audible about the Stock Market and Finance. The key phrase is, "there aint no such thing as a free lunch."

    That very strongly applies here, moreso than subsidizing.
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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 8,011 Valuable Player
    Free lunch? There is if you nick it 😂
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • synchromesh62synchromesh62 Posts: 329
    Trinity
    edited October 18
    Going back to the original OP's comment its cheap because they cut a few corners, simplified the construction and also the fact ( like any product ) once you mass produce the cost drops significantly for each unit. Given the fact the price is now in reach of the average person they stand to sell double or triple sales of the Quest .. Its not overly complicated its done with most products. 
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,742 Valuable Player
    Its not overly complicated its done with most products. 

    Very true. But it's super fun to overcomplicate things when it comes to Facebook lol
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  • Pacman8030Pacman8030 Posts: 89
    Hiro Protagonist
    The data Facebook gathers on their users is worth more than the cost of the product. Why do you think a Facebook account is required to use it?
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,742 Valuable Player
    The data Facebook gathers on their users is worth more than the cost of the product. Why do you think a Facebook account is required to use it?

    It would take years for a single user account to gain enough worth, to Facebook, to offset the cost of making the product.

     a US or Canadian user is worth $13.54 each quarter to Facebook, while someone in the Asia-Pacific region is only worth $1.59 to the social network.

    If you happen to live in Europe, including the UK, you’re only worth one-third of a North American to Facebook, at $4.5o every three months, while the “rest of the world”, which includes most developing nations are only worth $1.22 per user.

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/28/how-much-are-you-worth-to-facebook
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,837 Valuable Player
    The data Facebook gathers on their users is worth more than the cost of the product. Why do you think a Facebook account is required to use it?

    Think it would be difficult to know the actual accumulated value - and also no one has really looked at the reality of how much worth gathering info from their users is worth.
    2xan55713klf.png
    https://vrawards.aixr.org/
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,742 Valuable Player
    kevinw729 said:
    Think it would be difficult to know the actual accumulated value - and also no one has really looked at the reality of how much worth gathering info from their users is worth.

    Well, other than when all that was already done:
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/28/how-much-are-you-worth-to-facebook

    I'm sure there's more info out there as well, for those who want to spend time doing the research.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
  • cmat100cmat100 Posts: 40
    Brain Burst
    edited October 19
    Ask not what your value is now, ask what is your value in the future..........
    Apologies to JFK and I'm back in the DeLorean :)
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,837 Valuable Player
    cmat100 said:
    Ask not what your value is now, ask what is your value in the future..........
    Apologies to JFK and I'm back in the DeLorean )

    Like it.

    Yeah, everyone undersells the value of tracked data, partly because they are unaware of the value, partly because those that deal in it do not want its true worth reported. All the major brands now invest only in monitored advertising.

    Just saw this and had to share.

    image

    2xan55713klf.png
    https://vrawards.aixr.org/
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 4,314 Valuable Player
    @hoppingbunny123 - This video is unavailable...




    System Specs: ASUS NVIDIA RTX 3090 TUF GAMING OC 24GB , i9 9900K CPU, 16 GB DDR 4 RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
  • hoppingbunny123hoppingbunny123 Posts: 973
    Neo
    edited October 20
    @hoppingbunny123 - This video is unavailable...


    this is the video i got into trouble for, its still there, im in canada, might not be available in your country;


  • SharpfishSharpfish Posts: 1,310
    Neo
    edited October 20
    Do any of you guys actually have fun playing or making stuff for VR or do you just sit around on forums worrying/complaining about literally everything you can until life has passed you by?. I swear some people just enjoy looking for issues instead of using *FUN* devices here and now and knowing that you can move on from this (cheap) device at any time if something about it doesn't suit you (i.e facebook account). 

    I just see the same faces nit-picking oculus for years on here and over-analysing everything. Get Quest 2, use quest 2, have fun with Quest 2 for a great price... or don't. We all know why FB wanted to make it cheap and how they can make it cheap vs other smaller companies that have no 'return on investment' (ie HP with the G2 and no ecosystem or DRM of their own on the software side). Worry less, enjoy more.


    EX DK2, EX VIVE, EX PSVR | Currently RIFT CV1 & Quest 2 | Future Reverb G2 | VR developer
    Poster of the week who never got a T-Shirt ;( dayum they looked tasty!
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,742 Valuable Player
    Sharpfish said:
    Do any of you guys actually have fun playing or making stuff for VR 

    I do both. Moreso nowadays during the pandemic. I starting building WebVR back in 2017, and have moved on to minor stuff with Unreal Engine. I'm still a newb with that. I've also begun putting together project proposals for Enterprise VR, and started work on my own Patent this year. Lots of time on my hands thanks to the pandemic! lol

    Sharpfish said:
    I just see the same faces nit-picking oculus for years on here and over-analysing everything. 

    Agreed. Facebook and Oculus created some dedicated enemies.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
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