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Waiting to try the vive

Malkmus1979Malkmus1979 Posts: 763
Brain Burst
edited July 2015 in General
So I drove down to San Diego this morning to try the Vive via their tour bus at Comic Con. And guess what, I'm the only one In line! Granted I'm here two hours early so I could get back to work as soon as possible. Anyway they're all setting up right now. I've read a lot of reviews from Yesterday complaining about judder and the volcanic temperatures in the "bus", actually a truck. So anyway, I'll be sure to give my own impressions as soon as I can!
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Comments

  • ThreeDeeVisionThreeDeeVision Posts: 2,087
    Wintermute
    You get to try all the cool stuff, lucky!
    i7 5960X @ 3.8 GHz | Corsair Vengeance LPX 16GB DDR4 PC2800 | GTX Titan X Pascal | Win 10 64 bit | Asus ROG PG348Q | EVGA X99 Classified
  • snappaheadsnappahead Posts: 2,302
    Trinity
    Looking forward to your report. I heard the same about judder. They need to straighten that out pronto. The whole point of this tour (so I assume) is to show people how awesome VR is. Showing a hot, juddery demo isn't how you do that.
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  • Malkmus1979Malkmus1979 Posts: 763
    Brain Burst
    Some quick impressions as I just got back to work, but I'll briefly list my main takeaways from demoing the Vive. First, it was amazing. best VR experience I've had, and yes, I felt presence but only in the Portal demo. I also did The Blu and that was ok.

    1. Vive is heavier than Oculus Rift CV1, felt some pressure on my bridge that caused me to push it up a couple times.

    2. Vive FOV felt wider than CV1.
    (EDIT: I think this was due to the screen being closer to my eyes than CV1. And CV1 at E3 did not have functional IPD slider)

    3. SDE seemed even less than CV1 as I saw zero pixels. On CV1 in Eve Valkyrie I could make out pixels on certain things like lasers.

    4. No judder. Although the wands in Portal did flicker a couple times. Occlusion?

    5. The wands were wireless, but weren't as ergonomic as they seemed like they can be. Felt a little clunky.

    6. Most important! The space in the HTC truck was roughly 8x8 and it was a problem, big time. I couldn't look over the sides of the ship in The Blu and in Portal backing away to get a good look at things often caused the grid to pop off, very often. I feel like a couple more feet would have been perfect. I think 10x10 will be the minimum to enjoy these experiences.

    7. The wire was cumbersome, and immersion-breaking. Almost as much as the chaperone grid constantly appearing.

    8. Audio was very low, and the environment noisy, also breaking immersion. (This is more just a criticism of the demo environment than anything else)

    9. No gap under the eyes like CV1 or Morpheus.

    10. Portal was extremely realistic. I felt like I really was in that Aperture lab.
  • VizionVRVizionVR Posts: 3,022
    Wintermute
    That's great you got to try it, and only, what, two weeks after CV1? Too bad the room was smaller than optimal.
    Was the volume too low to gauge audio quality?
    Built in headphones?
    Any weird artifacts from the fresnel lenses?
    Chromatic aberration?
    Sweet spot comparison?

    Thanks for allowing us to virtually experience the Vive. :D
    Not a Rift fanboi. Not a Vive fanboi. I'm a VR fanboi. Get it straight.
  • Malkmus1979Malkmus1979 Posts: 763
    Brain Burst
    VizionVR wrote:
    That's great you got to try it, and only, what, two weeks after CV1? Too bad the room was smaller than optimal.
    Was the volume too low to gauge audio quality?
    Built in headphones?
    Any weird artifacts from the fresnel lenses?
    Chromatic aberration?
    Sweet spot comparison?

    Thanks for allowing us to virtually experience the Vive. :D

    Headphones were separate- I prefer the Rift built-in ones. There's enough wires as it is.
    Volume was way too low. This made enjoying The Blu difficult. That combined with the inability to explore much really broke the impression. I asked the rep to turn it up and she tried, but I didn't notice a difference.
    No weird artifacts, and though there really was no visible SDE, there was as another dev has described "a grain" or noise to it. It was hardly noticeable. Really only during the start-up screen when it's all white.
    No sweet spot issues. Overall it was great, but using the Vive wands does feel like you're holding two prosthetic hook hands like you get for a pirate costume. I have a feeling Touch is more natural feeling.
  • pedrwpedrw Posts: 760
    Trinity
    What is the difference of the size of the FOV relative DK2 ?
  • Malkmus1979Malkmus1979 Posts: 763
    Brain Burst
    pedrw wrote:
    What is the difference of the size of the FOV relative DK2 ?

    Well, if the Vive is 110, the Rift then felt like 105, and DK2 is 100, right? So 10 degrees, which really did help. On my Gear VR S6 the FOV is closer to 90 degrees and I usually notice when I first put it on, and it gradually goes away when in an app, but still intrudes my vision occasionally. The Vive is the first headset where I felt no disappointment whatsoever. I'm still holding out hope that the Rift FOV could match the Vive once the IPD slider is functional (and also the fact that it was put loosely on me by the rep.)
  • pedrwpedrw Posts: 760
    Trinity
    If you could keep one of them now, which would you choose? The Rift or Vive HTC ? It's because ?
  • Malkmus1979Malkmus1979 Posts: 763
    Brain Burst
    pedrw wrote:
    If you could keep one of them now, which would you choose? The Rift or Vive HTC ? It's because ?

    I'd say the Vive, because it was closer to my eyes, therefore wider FOV, and no light leakage. But I really need to try them again back to back.
  • andrewtekandrewtek Posts: 976
    Art3mis
    Thanks for the heads up! I'm in line now. Apparently they have 3 demo booths and can push 18 people through per hour.
  • AlexiGVSAlexiGVS Posts: 252
    Hiro Protagonist
    WOW.. Thank you Malkmus1979. Vive DK impressed you more then Oculus Rift consumer version?.. If Vive CV will be better then DK(I think it will be).. I definitely will buy one!
  • snappaheadsnappahead Posts: 2,302
    Trinity
    Very jelly. The only stop that's even a little close to me (200 miles) is "invite only", so I'll have to miss out again. Thanks for the report, Malkmus. Glad you liked it.

    Andrew, please share your thoughts with us after.
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  • Malkmus1979Malkmus1979 Posts: 763
    Brain Burst
    snappahead wrote:
    Very jelly. The only stop that's even a little close to me (200 miles) is "invite only", so I'll have to miss out again. Thanks for the report, Malkmus. Glad you liked it.

    Andrew, please share your thoughts with us after.

    That's strange. Are you sure there's no way to register for a spot? The whole point of the tour is for the public to try it (and press as well of course).
  • Malkmus1979Malkmus1979 Posts: 763
    Brain Burst
    AlexWake wrote:
    WOW.. Thank you Malkmus1979. Vive DK impressed you more then Oculus Rift consumer version?.. If Vive CV will be better then DK(I think it will be).. I definitely will buy one!

    To be honest if I had to rank my experiences it would be this:

    1. Vive (portal demo)
    2. Morpheus (The Getaway)
    3. Oculus Rift CV1 (Eve Valkyrie)

    The main reason CV1 ranks last in the fun department? It was the only one with a gamepad. Morpheus was super fun to interact with and Vive was the most immersive and interactive. But playing Eve with a gamepad felt too much like every DK2 experience I've already tried, albeit with better comfort than the rest.
  • andrewtekandrewtek Posts: 976
    Art3mis
    Okay... Just got out.

    1. Room scale is cool. But it is not practical yet with wires. I really enjoyed it, but I kept nudging the wires away as I felt them around my shoes. Also, I felt that my feet were below the floor. I think this is because they do not calibrate the experience (height, IPD) to each person. I am taller than average, so my feet felt like they were 8 inches below the ground. My wife felt the floor was right were her feet were. Also, the immersion makes you want to walk further than the room allows. I loved seeing through the floor!
    2. Controls worked very well. They were wireless. The thumb pads were intuitive in the painting app (the only demo that supported them).
    3. I got to see 3 demos: Underwater with fish and whales, a painting application and the Robot Repair demo.
    4. All of the demos had occasional judder. The demo operator mentioned that the software occasionally needs to be restarted and apologized. Oh well. The worst judder was in the Robot Repair demo; which was the most graphically intense, so it makes sense that this was software related and not tracking related. My wife went through in a different demo room and had no Judder.
    5. There is a little SDE, but you need to look for it in bright areas to notice it. It does not break immersion.
    6. It is hard for me to judge FOV because I am used to developing in my DK2. The FOV is good for me.
    7. I could see pixels, but did not notice sub pixels.
    8. The headset was lighter than I expected, but not as light as I was hoping.

    All-in-all, a nice piece of tech. As with Oculus, I feel it is up to developers to work out any performance issues before launch.
  • snappaheadsnappahead Posts: 2,302
    Trinity
    snappahead wrote:
    Very jelly. The only stop that's even a little close to me (200 miles) is "invite only", so I'll have to miss out again. Thanks for the report, Malkmus. Glad you liked it.

    Andrew, please share your thoughts with us after.

    That's strange. Are you sure there's no way to register for a spot? The whole point of the tour is for the public to try it (and press as well of course).
    It seems to be the only location where they're doing it, so it must be special circumstances.
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  • MrMonkeybatMrMonkeybat Posts: 640
    Brain Burst
    andrewtek wrote:
    Okay... Just got out.

    Also, I felt that my feet were below the floor. I think this is because they do not calibrate the experience (height, IPD) to each person. I am taller than average, so my feet felt like they were 8 inches below the ground. My wife felt the floor was right were her feet were. Also, the immersion makes you want to walk further than the room allows. I loved seeing through the floor!

    Wierd as the base stations are fixed they should only have to calibrate the the location of the floor once then the system should always know where the HMD is in relation to the floor. Maybe its more to do with IPD adjusting the lense assembly to fit round your nose will not give a precise measure of where your eyes are.
  • andrewtekandrewtek Posts: 976
    Art3mis

    Wierd as the base stations are fixed they should only have to calibrate the the location of the floor once then the system should always know where the HMD is in relation to the floor. Maybe its more to do with IPD adjusting the lense assembly to fit round your nose will not give a precise measure of where your eyes are.

    It is weird. It was not just my feet. I also put the hand controllers near the floor and they disappeared under it. So it could have just been bad calibration.
  • BTWBTW Posts: 70
    edited July 2015
    andrewtek wrote:

    Wierd as the base stations are fixed they should only have to calibrate the the location of the floor once then the system should always know where the HMD is in relation to the floor. Maybe its more to do with IPD adjusting the lense assembly to fit round your nose will not give a precise measure of where your eyes are.

    It is weird. It was not just my feet. I also put the hand controllers near the floor and they disappeared under it. So it could have just been bad calibration.

    I read in there update info that they were busy fixing some kind of drift* ... so maybe that is what you had.

    *weird isn't it?
    http://steamcommunity.com/games/358720/ ... 0079577930
    Fixed floor position initializing wrong and causing the saved floor position to drift downward each time Room Setup is launched.
    I5-4590 - 16 gig Corsair Vengeance - R9 390 4gb - 500gb 850 EVO - Consumer VR enthusiast
  • andrewtekandrewtek Posts: 976
    Art3mis
    BTW wrote:
    I read in there update info that they were busy fixing some kind of drift* ... so maybe that is what you had.

    *weird isn't it?
    This would make sense considering that the operator mentioned the judder I had experienced goes away with a restart. Perhaps the drift and judder creep in after so many demos.
  • RiftXdevRiftXdev Posts: 847 Poster of the Week
    Good feedback, thanks.

    I'm with a lot of people in that I'm interested in a Vive.


    Until we know the price of each though I can't possibly make a decision. If one is 50% more than the other I'll buy the cheaper because they feel quite similar in specs.

    Integrated headphones is a plus for OR because of the additional cables that headphones requires, as well as positional sound.

    I'm also primarily interested in seated experiences, so I think the OR wins again.
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  • MetakMetak Posts: 11
    Since I plan to get only one vr, not both it's very bad we don't get both cv1 and vive at the same time, or at least week or two delay between that two. Few months delay is kinda long so not sure if vive is rushing or cv1 is late. Or maybe we are hyped too early. Also 14nm gpus are not to be released so soon.
  • VizionVRVizionVR Posts: 3,022
    Wintermute
    I plan to buy both, but I will not purchase the Rift until proper input and content is included. I'm not investing my hard earned $$ in VR just to play around with a gamepad, some third person content, and ported Gear VR apps.
    Not a Rift fanboi. Not a Vive fanboi. I'm a VR fanboi. Get it straight.
  • andrewtekandrewtek Posts: 976
    Art3mis
    Input is huge. From the reviews out of E3, I am expecting that Oculus' input is as-good-or-better; but Vive 's was really quite impressive. Before trying the wands, I thought the thumb pads would be inadequate (I hate on-screen-touch-sticks on mobile devices), but they were amazing. Flipping the palettes around in the painting demo was super intuitive. It just felt right.

    I am excited for the future of VR and both companies. I totally agree with Metak that it would be better if Oculus and HTC could have their products to market at the same time. I think that Oculus will be at a disadvantage until their input solution is "in the box", unless HTC decides to sell their wands as an accessory.

    I really cannot wait to see the "side-by-side feature comparison grids" for VR HMDs as each company starts taking orders/preorders. I think that will be the time when each company touts why their technology decisions led to a superior product.
  • VizionVRVizionVR Posts: 3,022
    Wintermute
    From what I saw, Oculus' Touch inputs impressed the hell out of me. The sooner they have them on the market, the sooner Oculus will have my monetary support. Oculus put a lot of work into their ergonomic design. I believe the designers of the Touch also designed the XBone controller.

    By comparison, the Vive controllers look like dev kit controllers. Valve basically cut a steam controller in half and pasted on some tracking pucks. I'm sure Valve will continue to refine the controller's design. At least I hope so!
    Not a Rift fanboi. Not a Vive fanboi. I'm a VR fanboi. Get it straight.
  • ThreeDeeVisionThreeDeeVision Posts: 2,087
    Wintermute
    VizionVR wrote:
    From what I saw, Oculus' Touch inputs impressed the hell out of me. The sooner they have them on the market, the sooner Oculus will have my monetary support. Oculus put a lot of work into their ergonomic design. I believe the designers of the Touch also designed the XBone controller.

    By comparison, the Vive controllers look like dev kit controllers. Valve basically cut a steam controller in half and pasted on some tracking pucks. I'm sure Valve will continue to refine the controller's design. At least I hope so!

    I think Valve took the right approach here. Getting something quick and dirty out to the developers allowed for development of proper games using positionally tracked controllers. Spending all the design time undoubtedly gave Oculus a more ergonomic product, but it made it impossible to develop proper VR games.

    There is no doubt in my mind that Valve's final product will be more ergonomic than the dev kits which were 3D printed just to get something in the hands of developers.
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  • WelbyWelby Posts: 1,065 Oculus Start Member
    However it seems there aren't so much people that are talking about the issues related to the room scale experience..

    At E3 2015 Palmer Luckey said something that seems obvius but still not everybody have already thought about it.. and i'm speaking about the thing that really few people are going to have a dedicated VR room.. and really few people are going to have 15x15ft room.. or even a "symmetric" room..

    Maybe you've an enough large room but that is not symmetric and it could be not so ideal to play a room scale experience.

    What this means? This means that any VR headset in general are not going to be sold SO much easly.. especially due to the powerful PC that it needs..So

    - let's start cutting an huuge amount of people from who are going to buy a VR headset in general or an enough powerful PC..

    - Now,let's cut another piece of people.. who maybe could afford a decent PC with a gtx 970.. but it's definitely not going to buy EVEN a 500$+ Headset (the vive is probably going to cost even more).

    - Let's cut again another piece of people who have enough money to buy both a powerful PC + a not SO cheap headset BUT haven't an enough large room to play standing with the Vive..

    - And AGAIN.. let's cut another piece of people who have everything.. but it's not going to clean his 15x15ft room everytime and moves away heavy furnitures to "just" play some games..

    I mean let's be realistic.. i'm one of those people that really want have a VR room.. but realistically speaking i really dubt we're going to see SO much people have the chances to play standing in a decent space and having enough money to invest in VR standing experiences..

    What this means? That even worse.. it's hard to believe that tons of developers are going to develop room scale experiences if just a little,little piece of gamers are going to be able to play it..

    So here it is the final point of what i'm writing.. I think Oculus have done the right choice to say "The Oculus Rift is BOTH standing and seating experience.." still giving the chance to play both.. but they're clearly focusing on seating because (and not just for their choice..) this is what people are going to do in VR for the first generation..

    It's a matter of money,money.. money again and also available space.. and if we really want the VR echosystem grow up even more we need to invest in what devs wants invest.. (games that a lot of people are going to play).. and standing room scale experiences are a too little piece of the cake.

    My bet is that even if the Vive is focussing a lot on the room scale experience (that's the main "better thing" over Oculus.. and probably the only one) we're not going to see enough content to be really satisfied.. and when devs will see that people that are going to be able to play standing experiences are even less than expected.. i bet again we'll see even less room scale games.

    In the other hands.. Oculus will supports standing experience focusing on comfort,weight,ergonomic and everything really necesserely to perfectly play seating.. but still also standing,just in case.. AND (that's the main point against Vive).. it's gonna be cheaper than Vive.

    However doesn't misunderstanding me.. i REALLY.. really love the idea to be able to walk in VR.. and i love even more the idea to develop for it. I just think as Palmer Luckey that really few people are going to be able to do it comfortably.. and so even less devs are going to develop for it.. as i said.. at least for now.
  • andrewtekandrewtek Posts: 976
    Art3mis
    Welby wrote:
    - Let's cut again another piece of people who have enough money to buy both a powerful PC + a not SO cheap headset BUT haven't an enough large room to play standing with the Vive..
    - And AGAIN.. let's cut another piece of people who have everything.. but it's not going to clean his 15x15ft room everytime and moves away heavy furnitures to "just" play some games.
    Let's cut it further by the number of people who have a butler to hold the wires for them so they do not trip. The truth is, both the Vive and Consumer Rift have demonstrated a tracking volume that allows for room scale experiences. However, that does not mean consumers will use them for that. Demonstrating a large tracking volume really just means that users do not need to worry about losing tracking; whether the experience is seated, standing or covers a small/mid range of motion.
    VizionVR wrote:
    By comparison, the Vive controllers look like dev kit controllers. Valve basically cut a steam controller in half and pasted on some tracking pucks. I'm sure Valve will continue to refine the controller's design. At least I hope so!
    There is no doubt in my mind that Valve's final product will be more ergonomic than the dev kits which were 3D printed just to get something in the hands of developers.
    The Vive controllers being demonstrated did not feel like "low quality" or "dev kit" controllers. They were wireless, light weight and felt good in the hands. I found the demos to use them in intuitive ways that allowed the wands to disappear into the experience. As for them being a cut-in-half steam controller... that may have been their inspiration; but I think it was a good decision on their part. Next to a great HMD and visual/audio presence, the next most important thing to deliver is hand presence... The Vive wands seemed sufficient to deliver that.
  • ZandilZandil Posts: 977
    3Jane
    If they are to stick to Nov release date they are cutting it fine, 3-4 months from stated release and no pricing out yet, no mention of CV version or even concept art of a CV version, no mention that i have found of AAA devs working or what games are to be released for it.

    Lots of info needs to be released very soon I suspect to keep that Nov date alive.
  • Tim74UKTim74UK Posts: 1,369
    Nexus 6
    VizionVR wrote:
    I plan to buy both, but I will not purchase the Rift until proper input and content is included. I'm not investing my hard earned $$ in VR just to play around with a gamepad, some third person content, and ported Gear VR apps.

    Truth be told... Input is not so important to me.. Since I will be in Elite Dangerous or racing around a track.... both of which require hardware controllers to get he immersion right.

    My personal take on input is this.... No input solution I've seen thus far can do what they are designed to do... put your hands in the game. Sure they can mark up the location of your limbs and yep even give you some crude forms of control over your extremities and flanges within the game world....

    What they do do however is ultimatly break immersion... they are a barrier to being there....

    The only way True immersion can happen beyond past your ears FOV is to take your natural hands and scan track them one to one.. no controllers, no nothing...

    Until that is possible Crude input games will be like Wii games... and nothing more than a little gimmicky...

    We need light house style tracking gloves..... light house style tracking keyboards and mice and steering wheels... I'm not talking about simply adding a IMU's to everything... I'm talking about direct macro scale scanning of natural objects, rendering them in stable one to one into the virtual world and allowing those objects to interact with it.

    Basically we need the Leapmotion that actually works....
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