Halo effect / glare / lens flare: anyone discover ways to minimize it? - Page 2 — Oculus
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Halo effect / glare / lens flare: anyone discover ways to minimize it?

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Comments

  • crim3crim3 Posts: 385
    Nexus 6
    edited April 2016
    SDE isn't reduced by the use of Fresnel lenses. There isn't anything magical in a Fresnel lens that can do that. It's just a way to achieve some magnification level with a lot less material, but it adds artifacts.

    We will never know the truth.
  • DreamwriterDreamwriter Posts: 1,101
    3Jane
    edited April 2016
    The Reddit thing was not true, the guy who originally said it (who had his thread locked due to no proof) came out and said it was an April Fools prank...

    I'm not wanting to rub salt into an old wound, but was it a prank? With the recent email from Oculus, where it states that early orders have been impacted due to, "...an unexpected component shortage...", and with many people disappointed over such an apparent issue, the Reddit post may well have been genuine. 
    The post said that after Oculus received reports of the glare issue from Kickstarter owners (having not known about it before), they were shipping slowly to preorderers because they were only shipping devices to preorderers that did NOT have the glare issue, rather than shipping the devices they had stocked. If the post was accurate, only Kickstarterers would be having the glare issue. It was obviously a fake post designed to make people want it to be true.
  • ten10ten10 Posts: 80
    Hiro Protagonist
    edited April 2016
    Buying a CV1 and noticing a glare/lens flare problem - and buying themselves a Vive then (which has the same glare problem, as i read now in many test reports) ... users must have a lot of money laying around to spend ;) ...
  • ECBLECBL Posts: 53
    What would be nice (albeit entirely unlikely) would be some kind of backwards compatable upgraded lense option later on.
    Pop the old ones out and replace them with improved lenses.
    Will it happen? Lol
  • bjornbergbjornberg Posts: 16
    Hey guys. I'm one of the people who have a lot of halos in my HMD (CV1). It somewhat reminded me on how it looks when you wear smudged sunglases. So I had an extra look at the lenses, and it seems that there are some irregularites in the fresnell-pattern on the lenses. Am I the only one who have these?
    The irregularities looks like this http://imgur.com/gallery/YHbmY/new

  • SkateZillaSkateZilla Posts: 169
    Art3mis
    edited April 2016
    ^ The lens is designed that way...

    Unless you're talking about the hair and debris that doesnt belong there.
  • bjornbergbjornberg Posts: 16
    edited April 2016
    Hehe, not talking about the hair. And its clearly on the inside, not on the outside. Perhaps its easier to see on this video

    SkateZilla, does your lenses look like this too?

    Edit: Its clearer if you up the resolution of the video
  • Rifter_I0IRifter_I0I Posts: 16
    NerveGear
    bjornberg said:
    Hey guys. I'm one of the people who have a lot of halos in my HMD (CV1). It somewhat reminded me on how it looks when you wear smudged sunglases. So I had an extra look at the lenses, and it seems that there are some irregularites in the fresnell-pattern on the lenses. Am I the only one who have these?
    The irregularities looks like this http://imgur.com/gallery/YHbmY/new

    If you mean the black "dots" to the right of the lens, they don´t look right to me, they seem to interrupt the fresnel prisms, if that is so, probably it will cause some undesired visual artifacts. I can´t really tell given the poor focus in the pictures if it´s a real interruption or a moaré pattern or encrusted dirt as I´ve seen many times in flash fresnel lenses... (I am a photographer)
    Excuse my poor engrish

  • DilipDilip Posts: 251
    Nexus 6
    edited April 2016
    @Crim3 Palmar was right about Fresnel Lenses and Indeed Oculus did not used Fresnel lenses in CV1

    The lenses are FresnoAspheric they are Cross between Aspheric Lens of DK1 and DK2 and Fresnel Lenses that are used by Wearality Sky

    As per Palmar Optics of CV1 are as complex as SLR.... Let me share his own words

    "
    Optic design is all about tradeoffs, there’s really no free lunch anywhere in the field of optics design. While there are interesting advances, like waveguide technology and new cutting edge technologies, for the most part, the laws of physics working around lenses have remained unchanged and are no better understood than they were a few decades ago. So it’s the same series of tradeoffs that we’re making. The advances we’re making are in manufacturing. We’re able to manufacture things that were not feasible to manufacture on a large scale before.

    And so as we get new manufacturing techniques, we’re able to look at things that wouldn’t have been possible previously. That’s what we’ve done with the Rift lens. It would not have been feasible to manufacture in the past. It’s really on the cutting edge on what you can do with lens technology. But because it’s a set of tradeoffs, you have to decide to optimize around the things you can’t solve any other way.

    For example, geometric distortion is relatively solvable in software on the GPU. You do have to increase your sampling to some amount to compensate for the losses, but it’s still solvable. There are other problems that are not solvable though. For example, consistency of focus across the visual field, no amount of software correction can solve for this and so that’s one of the things we really heavily optimized for in the Rift’s lens.

    You’ll notice that –  unlike DK1 or DK2, that it was very sharp in the center, has a dramatic drop-off in quality, and is very blurry around the edges, in the final Rift lenses, it’s sharp in the center, and then remains pretty sharp all the way to the outside. That’s actually not just blur, it’s the consistency of the focus. Which means when your eye is moving across this visual field, it’s not having to refocus and re-accommodate as it moves across the field of view. And that’s really important, not just for visual clarity but also for the comfort of your eye. We’ve also been able to reduce other distortions across the board. We’ve been able to minimize pupil swim.

    Pupil swim, basically, is when your eye rotates, looking around the lens—the shifting of the image. We’ve been able to greatly reduce that, and that’s one of the reasons this scene has great stability compared to DK2 or DK1. And that’s another thing, you can’t optimize for that in software, until you have perfect eye tracking and an incredibly low latency loop tied to that – beyond any eye tracking technology that exists today. You can do real time pupil distortion correction in that case, but it’s very far away from being able to do that.

    Those are two of the things. there’s other things that I can’t talk about as much because they’re still kind of under wraps, but we’ll talk more about them in the future. Soon we’ll be able to talk more about what we’ve done in our optics system.

    It’s also worth noting that it’s not just optics versus software, but optics versus displays. So you make different trade offs with the optics based on what display you’re using and you can’t really make one lens and test 10 different displays with it. Because you might come to an erroneous conclusion and say, “ah, this is the best display,” what you actually have discovered is that it’s the best display for that set of lenses.

    So you want to go the other way. You want to get the display, make it as good as you can, and then design lens to that display system.


    One of the biggest takeaways from this is that the lenses are created specifically around the screens used. Once they figured out which types of displays to include, the manufacturing process for the optics were changed. The results have made the Rift arguably the best headset about to hit the market."

    They have made compromise with one thing to bring 3/4 best things on table.While how good approach is successful is subject of debate but what they achieved can be ascertain from paragraphs above.

    Sincere apology for lengthy para but every bit of it is totally worth knowing. It also explain why even costlier HTC Vive too kept same kind of optics. 

    For "Halo" effect its now ball in developers court they got to re engineer a bit and refrain from using certain tempting color pellets and lens flares. There may be reason of this thing to exist is DK2 was last thing most developers had where as CV1 optics are vastly different, we can expect corrections in coming months or may be next lot of games.

    One more proof that lenses are HYBRID is NOT ALL ARTIFACTS OR DEFECTS OF FRESNEL ARE PRESENT only HALO which Can be solved by avoiding few things while making game. not a big deal when you are designing some thing from ground for VR.



  • bjornbergbjornberg Posts: 16
    JC: Its crazy hard to get the focus right. Had to use a tripod for the light now, but these pictures should be a bit better  https://imgur.com/a/yLSoy

  • bjornbergbjornberg Posts: 16
    Cardinal: The stuff is on the inside, and you really have to take things apart. We are talking step 10 on the ifixit teardown https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Oculus+Rift+CV1+Teardown/60612 .I have created a ticket to hear what support makes out of it, but I just wanted to see if anyone else have similar imperfections in the lenses.

  • ZuhZuh Posts: 256
    Nexus 6
    bjornberg said:
    Cardinal: The stuff is on the inside, and you really have to take things apart. We are talking step 10 on the ifixit teardown https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Oculus+Rift+CV1+Teardown/60612 .I have created a ticket to hear what support makes out of it, but I just wanted to see if anyone else have similar imperfections in the lenses.

    That does not look too good but I know little about those things. Let us know When Oculus will get to you.   
  • Rifter_I0IRifter_I0I Posts: 16
    NerveGear
    Send a ticket with those pictures attached, I´m sure they will be interested in that apparent defect, maybe is just some oil or dirt sprayed in the manufacturing process, good luck and let us know their reply 
  • RoasterRoaster Posts: 1,053
    3Jane
    It sure looks like surface disruptions.  You'd need a microscope to look at the ridge surfaces to see if they are not smooth.  It reminds me of what it looks like when you cut pipe threads without any cutting oil.  Galling and tearing of the otherwise smooth surfaces. btw it ruins the die.
    Does anyone know if the fresnel lenses are cut or pressed? The part about the manufacturing process making it possible leads me to believe they're cut c-n-c style.  Each one could be different.
    i7-5820K @ 4.2Ghz, water cooled, Asus X99-Pro USB 3.1, 48 Gb DDR4 2400, Samsung 950 pro M.2 SSD, GTX 980 Ti SC, 750w psu
  • moggie007moggie007 Posts: 124
    Art3mis
    jeez these are prototypes for the future. the next versions will fix everything or most of the problems chill out. if your not happy then go elsewhere that puts your problems or other problems you encounter on another product go figure. YOUR CHOICE! and stop bitching just make one yourself if you can JEEZ!
    it will get better as time goes on you have to start somewhere, if your not happy with this version wait for the next one it will be better.
    SIMPLES!
    or is it i can't wait but i don't like this version DON'T BUY IT WAIT DOH!
    Aaaaaaaaaggggggghhhhhhh some people.
  • DannyMNLDannyMNL Posts: 273
    Nexus 6
    Roaster said:

    Does anyone know if the fresnel lenses are cut or pressed? The part about the manufacturing process making it possible leads me to believe they're cut c-n-c style.  Each one could be different.
    What material are they made of? They might even be injection molded if they are plastic...
    ASUS Z97-Pro Gamer | Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1660 Ti Gaming OC 6Gb | i7-4790K 4.0Ghz | Crucial Ballistix 16Gb DDR3-1600 | Cooler Master G750M | Windows 10 64-bit | AOC G2460PG G-Sync 144hz 3D-monitor
  • KarlHungusKarlHungus Posts: 41
    Brain Burst
     the flaring issue has been a MAJOR downfall in my VR experiences so far... 
  • ZuhZuh Posts: 256
    Nexus 6
    I'm thinking maybe some people see more blur than other because lenses are not equal quality.

    Could Cyber comment on those dots? Are those normal?   
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,579 Valuable Player
    edited April 2016
    DavidC said:
    My CV1 was delivered yesterday and the flaring issue is my one big disappointment. Everything else is great (reduced SDE, the headphones, lightweight headset, reduced cable mess, much better tracking range) but I've found the god-ray flares very apparent  in Oculus home and this really annoys me as it's the first thing you see every time you put the headset on.

    The reason it annoys me is that Oculus have talked about the challenges in VR, giving devs the time and support to work around those challenges such as VR sickness, menu design, etc. Yet the one piece of software that Oculus has written specifically for their hardware that every user has to use every time has not been designed in a way that prevents these damn God Rays on the Rift lenses.

    I would like to see a poll of CV1 owners with regards to this flare issue as I'm keen to see whether it affects all units or whether there is an issue with the manufacturing tolerances of the lenses. There have been many reviews saying that they're not an issue, but we have many actual owners starting to say the opposite.
    Even better still, why not have Oculus comment on it if they haven't already. Surely they aren't just going to ignore this if some people see it and others don't. Does CyberReality see the Flare?
  • sabyyysabyyy Posts: 33
    Brain Burst
    crim3 said:
    DavidC said:
    I would like to see a poll of CV1 owners with regards to this flare issue as I'm keen to see whether it affects all units or whether there is an issue with the manufacturing tolerances of the lenses. There have been many reviews saying that they're not an issue, but we have many actual owners starting to say the opposite.
    That's a good idea. Eager to add to the poll once mine arrives. It will take time though :/

    I still remember when Palmer used to say on MTBS that Fresnel lenses are simply not a good fit for VR. I wonder how many people inside Oculus is not happy with the decision; if any.
    That guy has said a lot of marketing s**t still his balls are treated very kindly by people.

    Remember the huge headlines of "Rift launches Q1 2016" ?
    And that they are working on expanding pre-orders to more countries? They've managed for 2 in 3 months.

    Waiting for the next now....
  • ZuhZuh Posts: 256
    Nexus 6
    No comment from Cyber is disturbing ;) Can anyone with CV1 look at their lenses if there are any similar dots?
  • DavidCDavidC Posts: 39
    Brain Burst
    I've just given Virtual Desktop a try for the first time on my CV1. This was a great program on the DK2 but on the CV1 this lens issue makes it pretty much unusable. There's Chromatic Abberation everywhere and the god rays, damn those god rays.

    I really am starting to think that there are good Rifts and bad Rifts because if everyone was seeing what I see, I'd expect every owner to be on here talking about it. I'm tempted to raise a support ticket.

    I'll hook my old DK2 up tomorrow and see how different it is. I've refrained from using it since the CV1 arrived but now I just need to do some side-by-side testing.

    Palmer & Cyber, please enlighten us. Is this a characteristic of the Rift or should we be looking to return fualty Rifts?
  • cyberealitycybereality Posts: 26,156 Oculus Staff
    So, I'm not sure about those dots. Looking at my Rift, I do see some light scratches or irregularities on the inside of the lens, but nothing that is noticeable while playing a game. Are you having any problems playing content or is this only with careful examination?

    In terms of the glare/flare/radial-blur/god-rays, that is (unfortunately) a side effect of the type of lenses used and is to be expected.
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  • DilipDilip Posts: 251
    Nexus 6
    edited April 2016
    I have dig in Hybrid lenses and that special "SLR Complexity" Comment by palmer, Also from IFIXIT Tear down found some interesting revelation...

    To fix limitation for Chromatic aberrations NIKON has developed special lenses.They are amazing and do the job right by removing Chromatic aberrations totally, which other wise require bulky and costly multi optics setup.

    http://www.imagechaser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/img_pflens1.png

    But as it was also said "there’s really no free lunch anywhere in the field of optics design" The tech brought its own Demon with it

    It introduce GOD RAY or HALO effect where ever there is strong light source..
    See the detailed article here...

    http://petapixel.com/2015/01/10/closer-look-nikons-new-phase-fresnel-pf-lens-technology/

    Now all DK2 users may know it has lot of chromatic aberration where as same is not present in CV1 ,So what oculus has deployed in CV1 is derivative of Phase Fresnel Optic. Same could be the reason about so much talked over glare/flare/radial-blur/god-rays

    See the article NIKON also doing Software correction to reduce the effect still problem is not totally resolved.

    From VR point of view. WHAT IS SOLUTION?

    Developer must not make light source directly visible to player but instead use volumatric defused light. Also in game one must not use reflective surfaces opposite to light source, those surfaces got to be Matt finish.

    All in all no direct light or exposure of light source to user will stop all god rays or Halo.  It can be worked around by developer.
  • DreamwriterDreamwriter Posts: 1,101
    3Jane
    edited April 2016
    DavidC said:
    I've just given Virtual Desktop a try for the first time on my CV1. This was a great program on the DK2 but on the CV1 this lens issue makes it pretty much unusable. There's Chromatic Abberation everywhere and the god rays, damn those god rays.
    They only show up on high contrast scenes, so if you are seeing them in Virtual Desktop, you can fix it. Don't use a dark environment or dark desktop wallpaper with bright text/icons.
  • Dilip said:
    To fix limitation for Chromatic aberrations NIKON has developed special lenses.They are amazing and do the job right by removing Chromatic aberrations totally, which other wise require bulky and costly multi optics setup.
    Fresnel designs are solely designed to save weight and and volume - see the Nikon 300/4 PF and its predecessor - 800g vs 1.2kg.

    There are other methods for combating CA, but they usually involve special glass (heavy), or multiple elements, (thick). Still I think the latter could be usable because fresnel's problem is not exactly solvable. Canon has been struggling with it in their DO line for over a decade now, and Nikon has had to resort to post solutions in their raw converter to reduce the issue.
  • kzintzikzintzi Posts: 1,068
    Wintermute
    it may end up being "the price of doing business" for CV1.. what I'd like (and expect at some point) is to be able to buy a unit that had my prescription accounted for (I'd happily spend decent money on getting proper lenses ground - those of us who wear glasses all the time kinda expect zero visual aberration in lenses :wink: ), and I expect that this will happen in a few years..
    Though you are more than slightly incoherent, I agree with you Madam,
    a plum is a terrible thing to do to a nostril.
  • TrytipedTrytiped Posts: 267
    Nexus 6
  • shortycaponeccshortycaponecc Posts: 10
    NerveGear
    Trytiped said:
    When i get my CV1 I will try it with my gunner optics glasses
  • haydxnhaydxn Posts: 42
    Brain Burst
    I have my CV1, and see the glare. I wouldn't describe the effect as 'god rays' at all. The only way I can describe it is as though I have a thick glass dome around my face, like I'm a spaceman or something, and bright light sources can cause it to glow a little. It certainly doesn't bother me.
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