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CV1 Light Rays are bad

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  • TwoHedWlfTwoHedWlf Posts: 2,234 Valuable Player
    Blyss4226 said:
    I soooooo think it's a very personal thing. I just don't think the quality would vary THIS wildly. I really think some people are just more sensitive to it than others.

    I'd like to see a survey of people that asked how bad the godray bothered them, and then various questions about their eyesight and eye health. I think it would reveal lots.
    I was walking down the road at night a few days ago looking at all the god rays thinking, "Even if it's worse than this...Meh, I can live with it.  Just makes it look more like real life."

    I wonder how many of these people complaining they can't live with it wear glasses?
  • brantlewbrantlew Posts: 540 Oculus Staff
    edited April 2016
    Chewie71 said:
    I want to know why these god rays were never mentioned in pre-release reviews? Even the almighty Tested kept quiet about it. So either they deliberately hid the information or it wasnt really that bad.

    This all reminds of this thread from the DK2 release. 

    https://forums.oculus.com/community/discussion/11190/chromatic-aberration-issues

    Very similar situation.  Lots of people putting a critical eye on the optics once they had it at home and discovering the tradeoffs and surprised because there had been no mention of it before.  But those DK2 optics at the trade shows were exactly the same ones that users received.  It turns out that trade shows are very poor environments for making critical judgements.

    But if I recall, lens glare was actually mentioned in a number of reviews leading up to release - just put into context against the entirety of the experience.
  • RoasterRoaster Posts: 1,052
    3Jane
    Totally agree with PassiveVR
    It seems the choices made by Facebook's Oculus VR were for reasons other than providing the best HMD possible.  
    How about some honesty and integrity, Oculus?  What happened to that vision?
    Or ... gasp ... do you really think you're nailing it?

    from Steely Dan ...
    ...he said you must be joking, son
    where DID you get those shoes?!
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  • Felixm477Felixm477 Posts: 131
    Art3mis
    sounds to me like the placibo effect is in full swing here, now everyone swears the god rays are too much, ofcourse they are! if your spending time on a forum to complain about them then your brain is going to force you to notice them every time. I know what im getting with my vive and rift i have done my research and actually paid attention to the tested reviews. Im not expecting VR perfection, just a fun device that shows how far we have come.
  • RoasterRoaster Posts: 1,052
    3Jane
    But, Oh! What it might have been!
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  • Felixm477Felixm477 Posts: 131
    Art3mis
    Roaster said:
    Totally agree with PassiveVR
    It seems the choices made by Facebook's Oculus VR were for reasons other than providing the best HMD possible.  
    How about some honesty and integrity, Oculus?  What happened to that vision?
    Or ... gasp ... do you really think you're nailing it?

    from Steely Dan ...
    ...he said you must be joking, son
    where DID you get those shoes?!
    for the record this is an issue with ALL the headsets that use the lenses including vive. How is this an oculus issue?
  • RoasterRoaster Posts: 1,052
    3Jane
    They made choices that I disagree with.  Beside that, nothing.
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  • HappyHimitsuHappyHimitsu Posts: 990
    Art3mis
    Given the variation in reports it almost seems as though some lenses seem worse than others. 

    Almost makes me believe that one guys report that it was the lenses that were behind the shipping issue, as they had to open the boxes and check each one out by hand.

    Would explain some of the dirt found in boxes (but so would alot of things).
    “If you are willing to look at another person’s behavior toward you as a reflection of the state of their relationship with themselves rather than a statement about your value as a person, then you will, over a period of time cease to react at all.”
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  • greeneblitzgreeneblitz Posts: 126
    Art3mis
    The thing that scares me with the "god rays" is it just the lenses or a combination of the tech not being there to correct for the lens, if its just a product of the lenses, will lens tech change in the next 3 years for the CV2? or if it's a matter of different lenses then why did both major HMD manufatcures use frenzel/hybrid lenses in the CV1?
  • SeeVRSeeVR Posts: 3
    Unfortunately, lens tech hasn't changed much in the past two hundred years, so I don't think we're going to see huge gains in three years. After all, we're using the same lens designs in our VR headsets as was used in light houses in the 1800s.
  • InscothenInscothen Posts: 277
    Art3mis
    edited April 2016
    Chewie71 said:
    I want to know why these god rays were never mentioned in pre-release reviews? Even the almighty Tested kept quiet about it. So either they deliberately hid the information or it wasnt really that bad.
    Tested mentioned it(at least for Crescent Bay lenses). Check their Optical Vaseline video.



    It's in there somewhere. Jeremy, Norm, and Will all mention it.

    RoadtoVR also mentioned it, IIRC.

    But yeah it would have been nice to hear about it more than that.

  • Blyss4226Blyss4226 Posts: 549 Poster of the Week
    Guys, at least listen to @cybereality - he knows what he is talking about. When I first noticed the godray effect I did a lot of research on fresnel lenses because my brain was like "WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY USE THESE" - it turns out it's exactly as cyber said(and as I've said in a few threads too) - it's totally a trade off.

    If you want to see the "benefit" instead of just the drawback - hold your head still and look around with your eyes. Notice that no matter where you look through the lens, it's in focus(assuming you've found the sweet spot). Now, personally I don't find myself actively looking around like that a lot. But it's really more of a subconcious thing - it sells the image to your brain a lot better because the whole thing is in focus, resolved and sharp. I've never had a DK2 so IDK how that holds up, but I can definitely tell you in my VR ONE (with optics made by frickin Zeiss so you know they are legit) that's not how it is. It's only focused in a relatively small sweetspot and the further to the edge you look, the more blurry it gets. That very much screams to your brain "You are looking through a lens!" - now, one could argue that the godrays scream that too. But the godrays can be mitigated through design choice - the other cannot.

    The main point is there is no scam here. And no Oculus did not just throw in cheap lenses that flared because they felt like screwing us. We are looking at these godrays and lenses from the comfort of our own homes, with infinite amounts of time to scrutinize and be annoyed by them. People at trade shows got what? 30 minutes maybe? Not much. And they were busy experiencing the Rift, not trying to fault it to pieces. And we should be too.

    That's my two cents, anyway. Remember, HTC chose fresnel too and has flaring too. This is not just an Oculus thing. I know Oculus is basically a love-to-hate company right now, and they've earned some of that IMO. But you still gotta be realistic.
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  • I'm really picky and was worried about the light rays. Got mine today, definitely not as bad as I thought. Haven't noticed them during gameplay in any game yet, only in menus and loading screens. And they don't exactly look terrible anyway.
  • RobHermansRobHermans Posts: 712
    3Jane
    The thing that scares me with the "god rays" is it just the lenses or a combination of the tech not being there to correct for the lens, if its just a product of the lenses, will lens tech change in the next 3 years for the CV2? or if it's a matter of different lenses then why did both major HMD manufatcures use frenzel/hybrid lenses in the CV1?
    SeeVR said:
    Unfortunately, lens tech hasn't changed much in the past two hundred years, so I don't think we're going to see huge gains in three years. After all, we're using the same lens designs in our VR headsets as was used in light houses in the 1800s.
    Good points, well argued. I believe one should never underestimate innovation, especially in the field of cutting edge technology, though. Just because things have been the same for some time doesn't mean that a new idea won't come along and change everything...just look at where VR itself is now that the technology which makes it viable exists, where it didn't exist just a couple of decades ago.

    Roaster said:
    from Steely Dan ...
    ...he said you must be joking, son
    where DID you get those shoes?!
    Well, I seen 'em on the TV, the movie show... Are we showing our age yet? :p
  • SaffronSaffron Posts: 39
    This reminds me to the DLP projectors who had the "rainbow effect", not everybody reacted the same to that optical effect. There's people who can ignore it and watch movies just fine, while others get sick.

    Light rays are similar and people should test the HMD before deciding if they want to buy it.
  • vinwijvinwij Posts: 14
    NerveGear
    The blur-effect on the DK2 is actually pretty bad. I remember when getting it and I never really noticed it. Then, after I got used to it, I started to look around more with my eyes rather than my head, and the blur got noticable badly. I think the Fresnel lenses get rid of that, and that's a good thing. During demo's I often have people complaining that it's blurry around the sides, and it kind of forces you to keep looking at the center. In a way, that was a good way to get rid of the limited FOV, since you weren't looking sideways anyways. ^_^

    On that picture with the yellow godrays, I personally don't find that very bad, I'd consider it an effect. Depends on how the rays react when you move your head, but if the tradeof is that you can now look around and have a sharp view wherever your eyes point, then I think Oculus made a good tradeoff. We'll see how it goes when I get mine.
  • Blyss4226Blyss4226 Posts: 549 Poster of the Week
    They react strongly when you move your head. If you are in a dark scene with lots of little lights and you turn your head, it's a laser show. I'm not even joking. That's when it bothers me the most. Fortunately that situation doesn't occur a lot.

    But yes, as you said and as I said above - edge clarity is the benefit.
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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,794 Volunteer Moderator

    I have to agree with Cyber and others on this, if it's a choice between smaller sweet spot, increases chromatic aberrations, radial blur.... or the light rays.... then I'll go with the light rays.

    Also the composite Fresnel design results in smaller lighter lenses so the headset as a whole benefits from this. I was dissapinted initially with the effect the rays had but they're really only noticable for me in some scenes in some games... now I can pretty much ignore them... that doesn't mean that everyone can though, depends on your level of adaptability I think.

    Like i said, owning both the DK2 and CV1, I kind of prefer the CV1 lenses, but I'm looking forward to what future technology has to offer.

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  • NacaryusNacaryus Posts: 216
    Nexus 6
    I wonder if Playstation VR will have God Rays !!??
  • bjornbergbjornberg Posts: 16
    @swtadeline : since you dont see much god rays, how does your lenses look? Do they have lots of inprefections in the fresnel rings?

    @Blyss4226 i actually feel lot of the issue is that I dont get sharp picture when I move my eyes. I would liken the feeling with wearing glases that has smudges on them. You cant see the smudge, but there is something that messes up the picture.

    And for the people (most who dont have a CV1 and cant see this issue) who claims this is a known issue and feels we few lucky with a CV1 should just be happy that we have a device period. If the problem would be uniform and on both lenses, I would chalk it up to the design of the lenses. But for me its not. And thats why Im pressing on with this issue. I dont claim that there never will be glare, but I believe (cant know since I havent been able to test or even see another CV1) that sample variation of the lenses make this phenomenon more or less pronounced.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,794 Volunteer Moderator
    According to Reddit, PSVR lenses aren't Fresnel so they wouldn't have the rays... will be interesting to know how small the sweet spot is and how bad the chromatic aberrations..... and how light the headset! so many questions!
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  • Blyss4226Blyss4226 Posts: 549 Poster of the Week
    @bjornberg If you are REALLY sensitive to the rays, what you might be seeing is that effect. They are present always, even when you can't see them. That's just how fresnels work. And I've noticed that in some situations, looking through the invisible godrays kind of feels yes like looking through dirty glasses.

    But the main thing no matter what is: Are you satisfied? I've bothered myself over my lenses for several days, worrying if mine are okay, if I hurt them much by scratching, etc. But then I decided that I very much like the experience in the Rift and that's enough. So what mine has a small defect. So what. I've had super amazing experiences in Rift already. So any shortcomings that might be present obviously aren't dealbreakers.

    Whether you are satisfied or not, only you can decide. But I think that's what ultimately matters.
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  • @bjornberg I see no noticable imperfections. Im not entirely sure what you mean by this. Shouldn't they all be pretty perfect? 
  • snappaheadsnappahead Posts: 2,302
    Trinity
    I see the rays, but they're a small price to pay. The lenses are fantastic. 
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  • RadiAr3RadiAr3 Posts: 25
    "They react strongly when you move your head. If you are in a dark scene with lots of little lights and you turn your head, it's a laser show. I'm not even joking."

    So the rift is basicly useless for space games where space is dark and stars are bright? That sucks
  • Lemming1970Lemming1970 Posts: 681
    Neo
    I wonder how many of the people that are really upset about this don't wear glasses?

    While I notice the rays, I kind of ignore/forget about them very quickly. Maybe the fact I wear glasses and have done since the age of 5 helps me block them out. If I LOOK for reflections etc in my glasses they are very obvious, yet I never notice them day to day.
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  • Lemming1970Lemming1970 Posts: 681
    Neo
    RadiAr3 said:
    "They react strongly when you move your head. If you are in a dark scene with lots of little lights and you turn your head, it's a laser show. I'm not even joking."

    So the rift is basicly useless for space games where space is dark and stars are bright? That sucks



    Quote from him.
    "first thing you notice and the last thing you care about"
    kind of sums it up for me TBH.

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  • HanoverHanover Posts: 549
    Neo
    I received my Rift yesteday.  Only had two hours to use it.  

    First of all, I already have a Gear VR.  When I first donned the headset, I felt a little underwhelmed...and it's mostly because I've already experienced VR.  I also felt like this was more like Gear VR 2.0.   It wasn't until I did my own A/B test with the Gear VR that I could tell there was less SDE and a wider/taller FOV.  I also noticed the God Rays which didn't happen in the Gear VR.  So I was really ready to go, "Really?  That's all there is?"

    Then I started getting into the games and experiences.  I had enough space to stand up and walk around a little in Technolust (and I must have a strong stomach, since I could use thumb-stick movement with no issues).  I also did the same thing with The Foo Show.  Its then when you realize how awesome CV1 really is and how immersive it is.  Even playing Dark Net is "God Ray city" due to the vector-style graphics.  I was still able to get so involved with the game that they just sort of melted into the art-style of that game (I stood up for that one too.  The remote is a god send!)

    As far as I'm concerned, if they're that distracting, then maybe you need to try a different game or experience?  To me, VR should really be about the experiences anyways.  Of course everyone is different...
  • L.E.D.BLUEL.E.D.BLUE Posts: 95
    Hiro Protagonist
    So basically we will never have perfect lenses in VR?
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